Roderick on the Line

Ep. 158: "My Citadel Is Irrelevant"


  this very special clothes and emotions [TS]

  edition of rock on the line is brought [TS]

  to you exclusively by need need is a [TS]

  curated retailer and lifestyle [TS]

  publication for men to learn more about [TS]

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  hello I jaan hai Berlin how's it going [TS]

  good although i just looked down and [TS]

  noticed that i have a 'shmock it's on my [TS]

  pants are no way [TS]

  yeah i got all the way down here sat [TS]

  down feeling good feeling strong and [TS]

  then schmutz on the pan our crime EP 10 [TS]

  mm you know you because you're sure [TS]

  you're sure officer studio HQ no hmm you [TS]

  should probably get this happens to lots [TS]

  of like rich famous guys you should get [TS]

  a rack of clothes that you can have [TS]

  around you know maybe after if you have [TS]

  a closet there but yeah i'm thinking you [TS]

  need to start having a couple shirts [TS]

  today and maybe some chemistry pants at [TS]

  the office I do you know I I don't have [TS]

  a closet but i do have clothes here left [TS]

  over from the time period when I [TS]

  imagined that I would start of like a [TS]

  thriving ebay company [TS]

  mhm where the the thing that the ebay [TS]

  company sold was my old clothes so i [TS]

  have a bunch of stuff i have i'm looking [TS]

  right now at that I think a tangerine [TS]

  colored linen sport coat and a pair of [TS]

  heavy wall hunting pants that it would [TS]

  have to be 20 below zero and you would [TS]

  have to be spending a night outside to [TS]

  wear [TS]

  that's what that's what my iphone oh [TS]

  there's a corduroy vest so so I Corey [TS]

  best I could dress myself I could wear a [TS]

  John Roderick for City Council t-shirt [TS]

  the hunting pants it's just cute you [TS]

  look like Ignatius roughly exactly like [TS]

  nature's all my valves [TS]

  oh my plural Val anyway that's where I'm [TS]

  at I mean I can't talk about like talked [TS]

  about like needing to be ironed and I [TS]

  need to be ironed and spot pressed em [TS]

  and spot dabbed you know the thing is [TS]

  you know you kind of this eid a thing [TS]

  has been a presence in your life on and [TS]

  off it sounds like the last few years [TS]

  like it's always comes in it goes out [TS]

  like you think about like findings on [TS]

  ebay think about putting things on ebay [TS]

  i'm still very interested in an idea for [TS]

  a few years ago about you [TS]

  curating some kind of museum of your [TS]

  life but like it's me [TS]

  because like you go to the store and you [TS]

  see all those tiny little clothes don't [TS]

  fit you [TS]

  it's like somewhere out there i don't [TS]

  see the doppelganger but it would be [TS]

  great if you could find like a few guys [TS]

  who was calling bears let's see if you [TS]

  can find a few guys like you [TS]

  they have your interests where you could [TS]

  like do things like swap clothes as part [TS]

  of it is that you're a tall guy like [TS]

  you're a big fella [TS]

  yeah you know yeah you were if you were [TS]

  like if you know if you were like a [TS]

  little guy you could you could probably [TS]

  swap clothes with more other guys but [TS]

  like you need to find there should be [TS]

  some kind of a matching service for [TS]

  people based on interest and you know [TS]

  what's the word I'm looking for you know [TS]

  yeah shape yeah shape right i mean i [TS]

  think that there are enough just based [TS]

  on the touring that I've done and the [TS]

  traveling and the number of people that [TS]

  come up with up to be in airports and [TS]

  other places and say mr. Roderick i am [TS]

  guessing that out there are a large [TS]

  number of my people who are interested [TS]

  in the things that I make who also are [TS]

  my size and shape and I that and so the [TS]

  interest in having ebay store was mostly [TS]

  to just take these clothes and deliver [TS]

  them to a group that was standing there [TS]

  with a big catcher's mitt already just [TS]

  waiting for the used hunting pants [TS]

  thinking to themselves I want used [TS]

  hunting pants and can't find them [TS]

  anywhere and John Roderick has something [TS]

  he's my size and we share a anesthetic [TS]

  you know what it's not bespoke it's me [TS]

  spoke em think that's the answer that's [TS]

  very big smoke [TS]

  whoa thats nice bespoke it's sort of [TS]

  like it's like a dating service but for [TS]

  shape-based pairings are not based on [TS]

  interest [TS]

  well but you know there's there's [TS]

  something there's something to this that [TS]

  that gets at the heart of something else [TS]

  as all things on our program [TS]

  mhm where you know your natural [TS]

  inclination when you think about like I [TS]

  would like to curate a store of my [TS]

  former belongings is to your inclination [TS]

  is to look at that desire that impulse [TS]

  and say that is narcissistic you know to [TS]

  to reduce it to its basis like you are [TS]

  an egotist I'm talking now to the [TS]

  imaginary me you are an egotist and this [TS]

  is narcissism [TS]

  in its in it and it's but like most [TS]

  reduced form you actually want to take [TS]

  your things and put them up on the [TS]

  Internet as though they are valuable but [TS]

  you know the desire to like curate your [TS]

  desire to have a curated life is one [TS]

  thing but the desire to have a curated [TS]

  history of years of your life and of [TS]

  yourself is a different impulse and I [TS]

  and in a tangle with it all the time you [TS]

  know like four years I i was so i was so [TS]

  pleased when I found my father's clothes [TS]

  from the sixties and fifties and I found [TS]

  them in the eighties a long time after [TS]

  my dad had stopped being interested in [TS]

  them he couldn't wear them anymore and [TS]

  they you know and he was not like a [TS]

  trendy guy but but they were dated suits [TS]

  you know and and I found these things [TS]

  and they the only reason they were there [TS]

  and the only reason that they an enemy [TS]

  that they were the they were the [TS]

  sourdough starter mix of my whole [TS]

  fashion sense [TS]

  my dad's fifties suits hanging in his [TS]

  closet and so my whole life I've [TS]

  imagined that because I because i had [TS]

  that experience I was aware of it and I [TS]

  was saving things in order that my [TS]

  future child son or daughter would [TS]

  discover this this starter kit again [TS]

  this sourdough and that it would be [TS]

  useful to them but I don't know how much [TS]

  me discovering that you know how much of [TS]

  it how much of the fact that my dad just [TS]

  absolutely left that stuff around [TS]

  because he never got around to throwing [TS]

  it away [TS]

  how much of that but but but I mean I [TS]

  was aware of my dad's history i put on [TS]

  those clothes conscious of the fact that [TS]

  these were the suits he wore during the [TS]

  Kennedy administration I mean I only [TS]

  tell me I wasn't blind to that but he [TS]

  didn't keep them for me he just kept [TS]

  them because yeah and so I've been [TS]

  keeping stuff my whole life thinking [TS]

  that one day I would [TS]

  seed you know it would it would [TS]

  regenerate that that excitement and that [TS]

  like putting on your dad's clothes you [TS]

  know like the spoon song your dad's [TS]

  fitted shirt [TS]

  uh-huh um it's so it sits there scoffs [TS]

  is really got me thinking there's so [TS]

  many different levels to this i mean [TS]

  only you know the the anecdote I have to [TS]

  share as you know my dad died when I was [TS]

  really young and I discovered over time [TS]

  like little caches of his clothes and he [TS]

  was a little taller than me and a little [TS]

  skinnier than me but uh i mean i still [TS]

  have a jacket of his from the early [TS]

  seventies that I we're increasingly less [TS]

  because I i do want to keep it but like [TS]

  you're on something so super interesting [TS]

  i don't want me to make this all [TS]

  intellectual because something very [TS]

  emotional to what you're describing but [TS]

  like when you first when i made the [TS]

  crack haha like you know what you like [TS]

  some random july kind of project we open [TS]

  a shop and saw your own clothes and be [TS]

  like a cute little like Portlandia [TS]

  sketch but like that's the thing is that [TS]

  there's there's such a distinction [TS]

  between like how you would choose to [TS]

  frame that to the public like the way [TS]

  you afraid that to the public and I'm [TS]

  taking this kind of seriously because [TS]

  what is art anyway you know aren't a lot [TS]

  of ways it has to be kind of [TS]

  narcissistic it has to be a soft money [TS]

  ven diagram on tumblr the day were [TS]

  somebody saying like you know the nexus [TS]

  of total narcissism and complete [TS]

  self-doubt is where you find her [TS]

  haha yes it's kind of true but like [TS]

  there's one way of saying like okay [TS]

  here's all these objects from my life [TS]

  that I'm putting a frame around in order [TS]

  to highlight how pointless and ephemeral [TS]

  they are and there's another way of [TS]

  saying well I putting a kind of frame [TS]

  around it to show like how important was [TS]

  how emblematic it was how this is this [TS]

  strange connective tissue between [TS]

  generations like you know in the same [TS]

  way you use its it's considered very [TS]

  normal to say like oh you know i love [TS]

  the beatles because my parents loved the [TS]

  Beatles it's another kind of thing to go [TS]

  like who knows what kind of [TS]

  sensibilities i developed based on [TS]

  wearing the suit you know and how much [TS]

  like I I you know you know it's just [TS]

  then there's the whole aspect of like a [TS]

  little kid like you never know what your [TS]

  little kid wants a question answered [TS]

  about like finding like a cigar box full [TS]

  of old stuff is like so many answers to [TS]

  questions you didn't know existed [TS]

  yeah absolutely and you know and like [TS]

  there are lots of people who would be [TS]

  interested in [TS]

  seeing the original handwritten lyrics [TS]

  to scared straight right i mean there's [TS]

  a lot of fans that like that song when [TS]

  it because when they become aware that [TS]

  there is a paper that has the original [TS]

  handwritten lyrics to that song that I [TS]

  was scribbling out as i was writing it [TS]

  in the studio there there are plenty of [TS]

  people that go [TS]

  oh I would be interested in seeing that [TS]

  and then there's a much smaller group of [TS]

  people that would say i would be [TS]

  interested in owning that right i mean [TS]

  when you think about the original [TS]

  handwritten lyrics to like a rolling [TS]

  stone there are millions of people who [TS]

  would be interested in seeing it and [TS]

  probably you know many tens of thousands [TS]

  who would bid on it if it came up for [TS]

  auction quite if you know it's a much [TS]

  smaller group of people that care about [TS]

  scared strange but for me the the [TS]

  handwritten lyrics of like a rolling [TS]

  stone are interesting to look at but i [TS]

  would be much more interested in the [TS]

  shirt that Dylan was wearing when he [TS]

  wrote it [TS]

  uh-huh and dylan probably doesn't [TS]

  remember the shirt he was wearing and [TS]

  doesn't ever didn't think that way when [TS]

  he see so like a peculiarly but so [TS]

  uniquely wired to find something like [TS]

  that like kind of repulsive [TS]

  yeah remember DJ weathermen the guy that [TS]

  used to go through his trash and write [TS]

  about it like he's Bob Dylan particular [TS]

  is particularly wire to go like I'm like [TS]

  I'm sure way to care about the song let [TS]

  alone my shirt but whatever he would he [TS]

  would burn it all or at least he would [TS]

  burn it as be just so you can have it [TS]

  yeah right and at them and the big [TS]

  question of dylanologists is like it [TS]

  yes he yes he finds that repulsive but [TS]

  also that is his persona you know like [TS]

  he's an acting finding that repulsive to [TS]

  at the same time [TS]

  ok but maybe you know i think i think [TS]

  you're right i mean guide it's the [TS]

  criminology around that guy's just [TS]

  anywhere right are getting when you [TS]

  think about but you think about him [TS]

  Dylan constructing his personality out [TS]

  of Lego blocks and at which you know at [TS]

  which point he grabbed the block that [TS]

  was like a the kill your idols and and [TS]

  set it there is one of the foundational [TS]

  10 who knows but um but [TS]

  there's something about me that I [TS]

  remember pretty much like I know the [TS]

  shirt I was wearing and there's maybe [TS]

  only a handful of people that are [TS]

  interested in that connection like [TS]

  that's the shirts that I was wearing at [TS]

  that point and I got that shirt from my [TS]

  dad and that's the shirt I was wearing [TS]

  when i when i wrote scared straight and [TS]

  that through line is meet you know maybe [TS]

  we'll never be interesting to my kids or [TS]

  my grandkids but it is interesting to [TS]

  somebody and that connection is [TS]

  interesting to me and I don't know I I [TS]

  can't separate out like I think I've got [TS]

  it i think i got it and this is this is [TS]

  the inevitable party like we you know we [TS]

  joke forever about the dumb stuff we say [TS]

  for our kids that they want because [TS]

  again it's the the part that's so [TS]

  interesting is like you know what you [TS]

  care about and you know what you found [TS]

  interesting but you know that's what you [TS]

  found interesting about that particular [TS]

  person or you know obviously the clothes [TS]

  have become like kind of a touchdown for [TS]

  you I guess what I'm saying is like [TS]

  there's no we didn't know what your [TS]

  kid's gonna care about right that you [TS]

  know the idea of saving a shirt for [TS]

  somebody is pretty weird like to to [TS]

  anybody who's not into in the same way [TS]

  as you don't mean it [TS]

  yeah like but there still is part of me [TS]

  that's like it this is this is not a [TS]

  narcissistic but there's a part that [TS]

  goes like i know that if i try to save [TS]

  everything i'm going to be a garbage man [TS]

  i'm not going to be a curator I'm not [TS]

  gonna be a collector I'm going I'm going [TS]

  to be a kind of emotionally damaged [TS]

  order like I don't know what special [TS]

  things to keep but the idea of this [TS]

  particular thing going into the trash [TS]

  because you know any other normal person [TS]

  would look at 15 items in a room is like [TS]

  the end of indiana jones and the and the [TS]

  you know 30 the engines but we gotta [TS]

  pick out the right holy grail you know [TS]

  the right we will raise the real Grail [TS]

  yeah we like up with the carpet nobody [TS]

  know exactly that's the kind of [TS]

  carpenters cup that's such a great line [TS]

  but you know nobody could look at all [TS]

  these shirts and go obviously this is [TS]

  the important one [TS]

  you know what I mean it is completely in [TS]

  intrinsic in some ways there's nothing [TS]

  extrinsic or somebody go that's the [TS]

  nicest one that's the one of the best [TS]

  condition right it's a great thing is [TS]

  getting really weigh on me now like of [TS]

  all of these dumb [TS]

  you know hardback books like who's to [TS]

  know which one of these is the one that [TS]

  made a huge difference they're all just [TS]

  a big pile of paper house how's anybody [TS]

  gonna care about that the same way that [TS]

  I did but you know so how do you make [TS]

  this decision it's hard to know what to [TS]

  keep on that rack it's hard to know [TS]

  first of all not sure who would ever [TS]

  want a quarter or invest in your size [TS]

  but I guess you did at some point [TS]

  can you pull off a vest this episode of [TS]

  Roderick online is brought to you by [TS]

  need need is a curated retailer and [TS]

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  last stage check out and as always [TS]

  please do feel free to say hello to our [TS]

  friend Matt Alexander via the live chat [TS]

  our thanks to need for making the world [TS]

  so much more handsome and for supporting [TS]

  Roderick on the lines [TS]

  morning blowing okay the internet just [TS]

  went away and now we're back i don't [TS]

  know how long we were both each just [TS]

  talking there i'm pretty sure i'd like [TS]

  to thank comcast for all their support [TS]

  i'm pretty sure that i was talking for a [TS]

  full minute and a half i was looking for [TS]

  at least two minutes yeah and then I was [TS]

  like Merlin right you haven't said [TS]

  anything you haven't granted and nothing [TS]

  I was afraid unless let's praise out of [TS]

  my mouth was can you pull off a vest [TS]

  can you pull off a vest and then there [TS]

  was silence and I couldn't reconnect and [TS]

  i thought i offended you [TS]

  haha you know it's a good question i [TS]

  have i have several vests but i have [TS]

  never I don't I can't think of a time I [TS]

  ever walked out of the house wearing [TS]

  only a vest it's you know it seems like [TS]

  it's kind of up there with the cowboy [TS]

  hat and the leather pants m in the like [TS]

  wow you know a good if you can do it [TS]

  good on you yeah right that's right you [TS]

  have to be if I think you have to be a [TS]

  thin guy i think all those things it [TS]

  helps if you're a lanky cowboy type [TS]

  yeah if you're wearing if you're a [TS]

  heavyset guy then your best is I think [TS]

  properly a waistcoat but you know what i [TS]

  was talking about that whole time was [TS]

  that I have sitting on a shelf in my [TS]

  living room i have a broken speedometer [TS]

  have broken speedometer from an [TS]

  automobile a broken speedometer from the [TS]

  motorcycle that i crashed in a Kansas [TS]

  field in 1986 and I was so devastated [TS]

  because this motorcycle represented [TS]

  basically my only asset in the world [TS]

  it was a it was only a [TS]

  five-hundred-dollar motorcyclist honda [TS]

  1981 honda cb650 and erected in this [TS]

  field and it was a total wreck but I had [TS]

  it I had a friend come put it in the [TS]

  back of his pickup truck and drive it to [TS]

  denver and I took it to a place called [TS]

  denver used motorcycle parts or dump and [TS]

  I was like you gotta give me some money [TS]

  for this bike it's the only thing I own [TS]

  in the world I don't have anything else [TS]

  and I was like it's 81 honda it's not [TS]

  worth any money i was like come on [TS]

  something anything in the guy was like [TS]

  twenty bucks [TS]

  and I was like really what this was the [TS]

  first time in my life I had ever [TS]

  well obviously the first time I never [TS]

  crashed a motorcycle in Kansas field and [TS]

  I didn't know how to deal with it every [TS]

  every boy has his first time [TS]

  yeah and so the guy wrenches off the [TS]

  broken speedometer which is broken and [TS]

  still stuck at 80 miles and that you [TS]

  know the pits like broken like like [TS]

  cracked he goes here's a souvenir and i [TS]

  still have it still is it still second [TS]

  80 miles per hour feel stuck at 80 miles [TS]

  an hour and I you know and it's like [TS]

  what good is that to anybody you know [TS]

  what what possible good is that [TS]

  well okay but this locates the picking [TS]

  up on the thread and you know god damn [TS]

  comcast that whatever we're really [TS]

  getting somewhere with that arm cast [TS]

  like I think there's lots of little [TS]

  things I feel like you can tease out [TS]

  little distinctions that to me are very [TS]

  important [TS]

  I mean there's the things that we save [TS]

  and we know why and we know it's for [TS]

  ourselves and that's okay there's the [TS]

  things we say we're not really even sure [TS]

  why [TS]

  and we think it might be for us you know [TS]

  what i mean i think i think there's all [TS]

  kinds of different levels to this [TS]

  there's some stuff people save think [TS]

  about the classic sort of medals and [TS]

  trophies kind of thing right where it's [TS]

  about like you say that because you want [TS]

  to show the people that you've got you [TS]

  know you've got wounded in world war two [TS]

  or what-have-you somebody handed me a [TS]

  facebook challenge coin the other day [TS]

  they snuck out their hand and I was like [TS]

  oh hi nice to meet you like mr. red [TS]

  river and shake his hand and I feel this [TS]

  thing between us and I'm like oh god [TS]

  what the fuck I'm like oh it's a [TS]

  challenge coin i'm looking at the guy [TS]

  i'm trying to think what challenge coin [TS]

  could this guy possibly be handing me [TS]

  it's going to be amazing whatever it is [TS]

  and it's a facebook challenge coin [TS]

  nothing tracking your movement and he we [TS]

  had a look on his face that was justjust [TS]

  shire cat you know like you're gonna [TS]

  like this of facebook challenge going um [TS]

  and so the thing that I thought I've [TS]

  anyway the thing i found interesting [TS]

  about what we're getting at is this you [TS]

  know that are there are those [TS]

  distinctions like why am i saving this [TS]

  am i saving this for me to remember on [TS]

  my saving it for someone else to [TS]

  remember my saving this because i think [TS]

  it's going to be useful in a way that I [TS]

  understand [TS]

  could this be useful in a way that I [TS]

  don't understand you know because I [TS]

  think there's a continuum here or a [TS]

  spectrum if you were on the one end like [TS]

  if the only if you know it the like you [TS]

  know I don't be morose but like you know [TS]

  eight a deceased child's blanket like [TS]

  that might be something that you would [TS]

  want to keep like you get that but [TS]

  overhear your like you know I can't keep [TS]

  all the blankets I've ever had right [TS]

  well I like this like there's there is a [TS]

  continuum like there's this emotional [TS]

  continuum between like you know somebody [TS]

  who's incredibly emotionally healthy and [TS]

  has a understand why they're doing this [TS]

  downloads all the other end we're likely [TS]

  your you know it's like working [TS]

  yeah I don't feel it is a sign i do not [TS]

  feel that my keeping things is a sign of [TS]

  emotional health [TS]

  let's be quite frank about that right i [TS]

  think that can you say that across the [TS]

  board there's some things where it [TS]

  totally makes sense don't you imagine [TS]

  that that the most emotionally healthy [TS]

  doing right now is sitting somewhere in [TS]

  Big Sur and all he has it is the only [TS]

  thing has on is a vest and it's a board [TS]

  short and it is minimalist desk and he's [TS]

  just like whatever man but it don't like [TS]

  hang onto stuff man [TS]

  and then you know and then I'm sitting [TS]

  here you know in my in my hunting pants [TS]

  with a broken speedometer from 81 honda [TS]

  I think he's sounds healthier than me [TS]

  i'm not sure [TS]

  yeah I you know I guess so or some [TS]

  people are more emotionally raw or [TS]

  emotionally available or unavailable [TS]

  than others but I mean I ice [TS]

  I see it you know like in my family like [TS]

  my wife is way I don't even think of [TS]

  myself as being that into like the [TS]

  objects that I say I'm not like i can [TS]

  just have the whole boxes of stuff flood [TS]

  like I just right I would be okay oh [TS]

  that's a bummer but like I wouldn't I i [TS]

  also maybe that's partly because I know [TS]

  that I'm wrong enough that if I really [TS]

  thought about it I'd be sad forever but [TS]

  however one day one day I was about to [TS]

  take out the trash in the kitchen and I [TS]

  looked in the trash and if I just have [TS]

  to tell you my wife is she loves [TS]

  throwing things away even you know like [TS]

  I'm a purge guy sometimes i really want [TS]

  to push my wife is like day today she [TS]

  loves throwing things away or recycling [TS]

  but you know getting useless things out [TS]

  of her life and look in there [TS]

  as pair of shoes in there and I was like [TS]

  my heart sank and I i picked up this the [TS]

  this old gross pair of her shoes and [TS]

  held them up in the air and was like [TS]

  what are you doing she said there's a [TS]

  disgusting i have 19 years I said this [TS]

  is the shoes you were wearing when i met [TS]

  you [TS]

  yeah oh I might as well have said like [TS]

  this is the turn I made the morning [TS]

  after we met [TS]

  if one of the want to throw your wedding [TS]

  dress you better [TS]

  but like they were exactly what she they [TS]

  were like old shoes she did not want to [TS]

  wear anymore they were out of fashion [TS]

  they were they were dirty old groceries [TS]

  and she threw them away but like my [TS]

  first reaction of course because you [TS]

  know I'm so good at instantly making it [TS]

  about me [TS]

  you want to come to garbage but it's [TS]

  funny though because like sometimes my [TS]

  daughter and I will go like to get our [TS]

  scooters you know will notice walk by [TS]

  the trash and we'll go like what like [TS]

  discovered things in the trash and be [TS]

  like hey you either way this popsicle [TS]

  stick and then she'll go to shoot their [TS]

  way my popsicle stick [TS]

  well now let me ask you where you were [TS]

  you I i know there's a there's a term [TS]

  for this or a word for it even i'm not [TS]

  sure what it is but like I when I was a [TS]

  kid if if I took a banana banana off a [TS]

  bunch of bananas there was a part of me [TS]

  that felt sorry for the the other [TS]

  bananas [TS]

  uh-huh because i had chosen the one [TS]

  banana and I felt I felt like I was I [TS]

  had to comfort the remaining bananas [TS]

  that it wasn't about them [TS]

  it was just that i picked this one [TS]

  banana you know what I mean like either [TS]

  i feel so much emotion and always have [TS]

  from the time I was a little kid about [TS]

  inanimate objects [TS]

  I man right here and you know reduced to [TS]

  tears feeling sorry for a a chair with a [TS]

  broken leg or i mean i remember i used [TS]

  to have a flag that like one of those [TS]

  orange safety flags that they attached [TS]

  to the back of my bike [TS]

  so you could see me around corners or [TS]

  yeah that was a really big pennant a big [TS]

  penetrate a big orange Pentagon on upon [TS]

  a little of our flexible pole on the [TS]

  back of my bike and somehow I I crashed [TS]

  the bike and it and my penance ripped [TS]

  our and I was in consolidate all not [TS]

  because like because the pendant was [TS]

  less useful or because you know but [TS]

  because that because I felt sorry for [TS]

  the Penans and I've carried that into [TS]

  adulthood in a way that you know I don't [TS]

  now apologize to things that i use i [TS]

  don't feel like broken things I don't [TS]

  cry for broken things the same way but [TS]

  but objects do have like they have an [TS]

  emotional valence they do yes and and [TS]

  it's and it's very hard for me to you [TS]

  know in a way like throw things away [TS]

  that have that have served me well i [TS]

  guess because I want to honor their [TS]

  service [TS]

  okay I hate to admit it but I'm not [TS]

  nearly as much that way they used to be [TS]

  but i was so that way and I I think it's [TS]

  because i am and always have been a [TS]

  little broken inside and so I mean like [TS]

  the little here's the thing when i get [TS]

  back to the continuum I don't think [TS]

  there's that many examples of this you [TS]

  can come up with examples of this than [TS]

  almost anybody you know crying that your [TS]

  wife threw out an old pair of shoes not [TS]

  crying but like going hey yeah that's [TS]

  pretty weird [TS]

  this always sells shoes end up in the [TS]

  garbage yeah totally yes young i want [TS]

  you how many how many pairs of shoes [TS]

  will we save this becomes a question [TS]

  like what and how do we honor some how [TS]

  do we honor the shoes she doesn't know [TS]

  what it's weird [TS]

  yeah but now but like for example like [TS]

  there's all the obvious kinds of things [TS]

  like you know I i used to have a lot of [TS]

  attachment to stuffed animals were at [TS]

  plushies as they're now called my kid [TS]

  loves him now I think she got it i love [TS]

  my stuffed animals when I was a kid [TS]

  22 until I was like pretty old and like [TS]

  so stuff like seeing a stuffed animal on [TS]

  the street still makes me melancholy I [TS]

  think that's a pretty clear one right no [TS]

  matter how much no matter how many pork [TS]

  chops you jam in your mouth hole every [TS]

  month watching the first few minutes of [TS]

  babe home it will tug on your [TS]

  heartstrings and you go oh my god [TS]

  totally eating a pig [TS]

  there's all kinds of the [TS]

  as we're like things you are generally [TS]

  think of as an inert object you suddenly [TS]

  feel very emotional about for all kinds [TS]

  of reasons and so you know in but maybe [TS]

  you're right maybe it maybe does come [TS]

  down to be a little being a little bit [TS]

  you know broken inside [TS]

  in some ways yeah I used to isolate feel [TS]

  really bad for my feel positive we've [TS]

  had this conversation before but I used [TS]

  to feel bad i used to have feel bad for [TS]

  my clothes I used to like feel like if I [TS]

  didn't wear them often enough or like [TS]

  you know I didn't want my socks be [TS]

  separated and I didn't I didn't want I [TS]

  didn't want my shirt to get their [TS]

  feelings hurt i have about that very [TS]

  strongly absolutely and and and there is [TS]

  something I i got a Valentine one time [TS]

  in about third grade and the valentine i [TS]

  may have talked about this a long time [TS]

  ago with you but the Valentine was a [TS]

  little girl and she was crying and she [TS]

  was holding a flower and she'd obviously [TS]

  been playing the he loves me he loves me [TS]

  not [TS]

  game for plucking the pedals off the [TS]

  flour and she had plucked the pedals [TS]

  down to the last petal there was one [TS]

  petal remaining on her flower and it was [TS]

  clear from the narrative the of it the [TS]

  unwritten narrative of the Valentine [TS]

  that she had arrived at the last panel [TS]

  that the pedal was he loves me not [TS]

  and she could not pluck it and was [TS]

  crying holding the flower imagining [TS]

  imagining that she could go back in time [TS]

  imagining another world an alternate [TS]

  reality where the last petal was that he [TS]

  loves me and the Valentine was this [TS]

  little cartoon of a girl crying and and [TS]

  it said i will be so lonely if you [TS]

  aren't my valentine or something like [TS]

  that and all of this was that it was it [TS]

  wasn't explicit it was just in the [TS]

  drawing and has a third-grader I could I [TS]

  understood the story that it was that [TS]

  was being told and this valentine [TS]

  destroyed me and I and and I I openly [TS]

  cried at receiving and I don't remember [TS]

  who was from comic-con [TS]

  but I it was just you know it was one of [TS]

  those things like everybody in the class [TS]

  has to give everybody a Valentine [TS]

  situations but here this thing popped up [TS]

  in the newspaper somebody about a store [TS]

  ya popped up in a stack of Valentine's [TS]

  and the it was so fraud and and and i [TS]

  felt so acutely for this little cartoon [TS]

  girl that she had started out probably [TS]

  plucking these pedals full of excitement [TS]

  and hope and fun like he loves me he [TS]

  loves me not he loves me and then she [TS]

  and then it started to get darker as she [TS]

  was running out of pedals on this she [TS]

  got down to that last petal and she [TS]

  couldn't pluck it and I wanted and I [TS]

  wanted to do anything in the world to [TS]

  change this girl's life to change the [TS]

  story to change the reality to put an [TS]

  extra pedal on that flat fucking flower [TS]

  and I i would sit so I kept this [TS]

  valentine and I tucked it away and I [TS]

  would take it out sometimes and look at [TS]

  it like it was pornography because it [TS]

  could put me in this place of like [TS]

  emotional just absolute darkness you [TS]

  never get didn't diminish over time you [TS]

  know had that power and i would i would [TS]

  draw it sometimes I would sit and end [TS]

  and either trace it or actually do [TS]

  drawings of it on a separate piece of [TS]

  paper I guess trying to unlock it trying [TS]

  to unlock the story or or change it in [TS]

  some way and I so i think that i still [TS]

  have the valentine i think i may even [TS]

  still have some of the drawings i did of [TS]

  the Valentine God and I don't instead [TS]

  still sitting and thinking about it [TS]

  right now i can i can picture everything [TS]

  about it and i am and i still feel for [TS]

  that little girl haha [TS]

  and what's what's crazy is that I've [TS]

  only just started exposing my daughter [TS]

  to to media that is complicated right up [TS]

  until now it's you know all of her books [TS]

  and all the stuff that she's been [TS]

  exposed to is pretty much on the line [TS]

  ambiguous kids stuff [TS]

  yeah it's just like little apple boy [TS]

  puts the letter a on his apple basket [TS]

  but heat is good supper [TS]

  that's right little apple Boyd never [TS]

  complains about going to bed but he's so [TS]

  big but I've started you know I'm [TS]

  started introducing her to you know we [TS]

  watch Dumbo [TS]

  oh and i forgot i was like Dumbo the [TS]

  flying elephant [TS]

  oh my i was sat down and what had [TS]

  started watching tempo and I'm like [TS]

  Dumbo and sees a funny funny funny often [TS]

  but i often we just need self-confidence [TS]

  with the flappy ears at the flower and [TS]

  number on the trunk of sex look [TS]

  okay Dumbo is like it's like basically a [TS]

  it is full of a minute it's it's a it's [TS]

  basically the the story of precious the [TS]

  that whatever that movie was from a [TS]

  couple years ago however long the night [TS]

  with the name of the person in it [TS]

  yeah um based on sapphire or something [TS]

  yeah but that's right it's you know like [TS]

  Dumbo was born everyone rejects him [TS]

  because of his birth defect and his [TS]

  mother trying to defend him is a is [TS]

  taken away by the authorities and put in [TS]

  sale insane asylum dumbo is rejected by [TS]

  the tribe and his only friend is a [TS]

  wisecracking mouse he's surrounded by [TS]

  evil clowns he is he's forced into you [TS]

  know essentially like a is forced into [TS]

  being up like a freaking slideshow yeah [TS]

  right [TS]

  a professional freak and only in the [TS]

  only in the last minute of the film is [TS]

  there any redemption and it is when he [TS]

  discovers he can fly oh oh and then [TS]

  there's you know they're the like the [TS]

  the tribe of racist the crows are ready [TS]

  you know the crows themselves are racist [TS]

  but their portrayal is races [TS]

  yeah and and so i'm watching this movie [TS]

  and she is just she's like yelling at [TS]

  the screen like no Jake can take depose [TS]

  mom and she's just like so her emotional [TS]

  response to this stuff is like so [TS]

  intense and I'm sitting there I'm like [TS]

  I'd do i right [TS]

  right do I turn this off because you [TS]

  don't want you don't mean the thing is [TS]

  though you get every kid sits with that [TS]

  and they turn out mostly ok but like you [TS]

  just hate seeing your kid like now [TS]

  you're sitting there you you put your [TS]

  child in this situation are you positive [TS]

  this monstrosity I much i mentioned babe [TS]

  we made about three minutes into babe [TS]

  and then she started sitting upright now [TS]

  I know what that means when she was [TS]

  little she would always say this is [TS]

  boring right this is this is boring that [TS]

  means like this is horrifying me please [TS]

  take off and started to kind of look [TS]

  down a little bit and I could tell me [TS]

  about 30 seconds from tears like what am [TS]

  i doing what if I done and so she really [TS]

  she feels it too huh you feel stuff [TS]

  super hard everything is I was talking [TS]

  to my mom about it and dumbo came out in [TS]

  1941 yes for early 45 40 41 and my mom [TS]

  was six years old in nineteen forty six [TS]

  or seven years old she was like oh i [TS]

  remember going to see Dumbo in the [TS]

  theater when it came out I was like wow [TS]

  how did you feel about it and she said [TS]

  oh I mean it was you know kids movie [TS]

  like all those movies and as I started [TS]

  to unpack it I realized that the [TS]

  experiences that dumbo was having in [TS]

  comparison to be experiences my mom was [TS]

  actually having dinner in her own [TS]

  real-life right [TS]

  dumbo was some light-hearted shit to her [TS]

  right you know like like my mom was [TS]

  actually you know was was actually an [TS]

  orphan laboring on a farm right and [TS]

  dumbo was you know at least getting a [TS]

  fun farm that one don't like it when you [TS]

  say four people going to go dude like [TS]

  turkey in the straw kind of think it's [TS]

  like no really a million more like me [TS]

  think coal miners that land right a farm [TS]

  where you where there was an outhouse [TS]

  and we're grinding poverty the way you [TS]

  drive your clothes in winter was that [TS]

  you hung them up outside they froze and [TS]

  then you beat them with a rod until the [TS]

  ice broke off of them and that was how [TS]

  that and then took them inside and [TS]

  ironed them dry so my mom was like oh I [TS]

  you know dumbo shrugged it off and I was [TS]

  like oh my god a so of course I didn't [TS]

  turn it off [TS]

  and I you know and I held my little girl [TS]

  and said you know like and talk to her [TS]

  about it you know I didn't like say it's [TS]

  ok it's ok I I said he had Dumbo's mom [TS]

  is really in trouble she was trying to [TS]

  help him wasn't she [TS]

  and you know and we walk we talked our [TS]

  way through the movie and I was like oh [TS]

  jesus that was emotionally fraught for [TS]

  me [TS]

  oh yeah i think it would have been if I [TS]

  had just watched by myself really like [TS]

  about what a terrible time dumbo had and [TS]

  i'm not sure what I watched it in 1972 [TS]

  what their I mean it was dumbo had a [TS]

  worse time that I did but you know [TS]

  jumbled and ER like on ir near the top [TS]

  of the list of like they're canonical I [TS]

  mean in terms of like my disney hates [TS]

  parents and consequently kind of hates [TS]

  kids like we are going to make you feel [TS]

  so low and here's the thing these disney [TS]

  movies this is the thing to keep in mind [TS]

  is you know what you're talking about [TS]

  like you know people with certain [TS]

  generation they all Disney movies [TS]

  they're like these fun things and [TS]

  there's lots of a wackadoodle animals [TS]

  singing songs and stuff like that [TS]

  I've been thinking about this a lot [TS]

  lately is the what is it that really [TS]

  sticks with you about a movie and the [TS]

  thing is some people might really they [TS]

  might remember like Mary Poppins for [TS]

  let's go fly a kite [TS]

  I remember it for the woman feeding the [TS]

  birds oh yeah and it's well experienced [TS]

  very it's so depressing and like in like [TS]

  an in these cases these movies were [TS]

  talking about like it may have you like [TS]

  Robin Hood and like putting children in [TS]

  jail [TS]

  it's like how you explain a little bit [TS]

  by these children are in jail [TS]

  well it's friendly and is the princess [TS]

  corrupt and he's a lion man and it's [TS]

  like but what you really remember that [TS]

  there are these just stuff that I think [TS]

  the impact that sticks with least mean a [TS]

  lot of people i know was the incredibly [TS]

  intensely sad stuff and then in fact [TS]

  when you want to have this kind of [TS]

  tacked on happy ending it kind of makes [TS]

  it worse because you're like who like [TS]

  there's this thing I don't understand [TS]

  i'm kind of pushing this bruise now [TS]

  about how sad this made me and all this [TS]

  all this kind of you know baggy pants [TS]

  humor at the end is not making me feel [TS]

  better but it feels it feels really [TS]

  false [TS]

  it feels really fake and emotional [TS]

  impact you're trying to create it's like [TS]

  everything turns out great the parents [TS]

  are back yeah [TS]

  or whatever it's like it's so it doesn't [TS]

  not only doesn't offset how sad you were [TS]

  at the end of the first or second act [TS]

  but like how it makes it kind of you [TS]

  know I'm saying it kind of makes it [TS]

  worse that like you're trying to like [TS]

  make me happy now when I know the [TS]

  profundity of that sadness that I felt [TS]

  is so much more important than seeing [TS]

  the end of Technicolor production or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  yeah the the end of Dumbo I'm not sure I [TS]

  ever [TS]

  I mean I haven't watched any advil and [TS]

  do not remember well he I mean that [TS]

  device he flies and then he's the star [TS]

  and the last scene of the movie is that [TS]

  dumbo has his own super cool art deco [TS]

  styled train car the tacked onto the end [TS]

  of the Train it's very modern and [TS]

  there's a balcony where his mother is [TS]

  sitting watching him fly high above the [TS]

  train i think maybe the crows are there [TS]

  they're all friends huh and but the [TS]

  thing is like watching it now I did very [TS]

  much have the experience of thinking [TS]

  Dumbo's mother is never gonna live that [TS]

  down [TS]

  she's never going to feel safe again and [TS]

  never again I mean if terry gilliam made [TS]

  an honest version of that it would all [TS]

  turn out to have been a dream what [TS]

  number was being tortured and was like [TS]

  dehydrated and I'm imagining it would be [TS]

  like you know flying flying with Jill [TS]

  through the air in Brazil no no no that [TS]

  didn't really happen [TS]

  you're just sitting there getting [TS]

  tortured by the guy from monty python [TS]

  it's all good yeah it was it was I mean [TS]

  it was the end of innocence but when you [TS]

  go back to the beginning of Dumbo when [TS]

  Dumbo's mother is waiting [TS]

  I mean Dumbo's mother is waiting for the [TS]

  stork to deliver her baby and everyone [TS]

  else in the circus has already had a [TS]

  baby and Dumbo's mother than the stork [TS]

  like was late or was it was a a stumble [TS]

  bomb and what they chose to pull punches [TS]

  about is so bananas like we don't talk [TS]

  about coitus but the fact that she might [TS]

  be barren and she's incredibly lonely [TS]

  front and center [TS]

  yeah and on and all the other elephants [TS]

  all of whom i might add have [TS]

  mid-atlantic accents are not that I'll [TS]

  speak like this [TS]

  yes they do wow she's Shelby a terrible [TS]

  matter about your uncle and they're all [TS]

  like [TS]

  already at the start of the movie you [TS]

  can tell that Dumbo's mother is a an [TS]

  outcast be maybe a little slow and none [TS]

  of the other like none of the other sort [TS]

  of a quickie elephants like her at all [TS]

  they're mocking her before the before [TS]

  the baby even arrives God and so it's a [TS]

  there's no there's no happy ending to [TS]

  that movie like even if dumbo is written [TS]

  in part of it as the American ending [TS]

  right where dumbo gets rich and that is [TS]

  the triumph right that now they have [TS]

  their own railcar but they're still in [TS]

  the freaking circus they're not back in [TS]

  that they're not back in the Savannah [TS]

  dumb bowed and his mother didn't free [TS]

  themselves but they're still there still [TS]

  in Chains [TS]

  I you know I don't know I i feel like [TS]

  i'm gonna be my little girl and I are [TS]

  going to sit and we're going to digest [TS]

  dumbo for a while but I but seeing her [TS]

  emotional reaction to you know that [TS]

  thing that you're describing where she [TS]

  sits up straight [TS]

  all of a sudden movement and and all he [TS]

  is trying to avert our eyes and you go i [TS]

  can i'm not just gonna keep broadcasting [TS]

  happy fluff to her right but but uh but [TS]

  if she shares my emotional nature like [TS]

  there are so many more land mines in the [TS]

  world than for a normal person you know [TS]

  and i'm not just want to say like I I'm [TS]

  glad with a kid can still have feelings [TS]

  I mean in a way when it be it would be [TS]

  even weirder if they were sitting there [TS]

  and like laughing at home no feeling [TS]

  like that means that she's not dead [TS]

  inside you know and that makes me happy [TS]

  but I totally get what you're saying [TS]

  where it's it's it that's not that yes a [TS]

  minefield yeah and-and-and you know if [TS]

  there's a part there's a part of my life [TS]

  that I absolutely would not trade you [TS]

  know the the the the degree to which I [TS]

  see the world through emotions even [TS]

  though i think over the years I have [TS]

  been accused by a lot of people of being [TS]

  cold or of being you know emotionally [TS]

  distant from them in particular [TS]

  emotionally distant from other people [TS]

  and yet [TS]

  like I it i walked through a world that [TS]

  is you know not just a rainbow of [TS]

  emotions but also like into the infrared [TS]

  and x-ray up of emotion right I like I'm [TS]

  seeing I'm seeing emotions in things [TS]

  that do not have emotions and I'm having [TS]

  an emotional response to things that do [TS]

  not require one you have a promotional [TS]

  response that maybe I say inappropriate [TS]

  things out of out of line with what a [TS]

  typical person we have about something [TS]

  but and and and what that has always [TS]

  what I've always imagined is that it is [TS]

  that it's a kind of dimensional [TS]

  perception or something i'm seeing [TS]

  another overlay or not seen it's not a [TS]

  seeing thing I am experiencing another [TS]

  overlay almost like somebody somebody [TS]

  who could imagine somebody who's like [TS]

  see themselves as a medium or a psychic [TS]

  like having no no you know honestly [TS]

  somebody who feels like you know what I [TS]

  knew this was gonna happen I i had a [TS]

  strong vision of exactly what happened [TS]

  before it happened [TS]

  yeah right something you can see [TS]

  something that other people don't see I [TS]

  was at a party this weekend in somebody [TS]

  we're talking ghost stories and [TS]

  somebody's like to believe in ghosts [TS]

  John and I was like well I do not [TS]

  believe in ghosts however i have been [TS]

  terrorized by ghosts and so in being [TS]

  terrorized by them i absolutely believe [TS]

  in them but i do not believe in them cut [TS]

  it's so great and you know and they were [TS]

  like what it would do what do you mean [TS]

  and I was like well for instance i do [TS]

  not believe in God and yet I do not know [TS]

  whether or not i believe in god and so I [TS]

  cannot say that i do not believe in God [TS]

  but I don't believe in God but I do very [TS]

  much believe in god I mean how much [TS]

  clearer could I be and that is it's [TS]

  perfectly consistent from within but uh [TS]

  but like not only impossible to explain [TS]

  but also like why would I bother [TS]

  what was right what what am I trying to [TS]

  communicate like it was sometimes I will [TS]

  come downstairs [TS]

  ashen faced because all my pillows turn [TS]

  towels [TS]

  it doesn't mean that i believe that my [TS]

  that my or anyone elses pillows upturn [TS]

  towel if you believed it would be more [TS]

  plausible if that's the thing that's [TS]

  what people aren't getting it's like [TS]

  it's like that's the thing about reality [TS]

  is it doesn't need you to believe in it [TS]

  like if something if you know or feel [TS]

  that something is happening [TS]

  knowing that it's not real makes it [TS]

  worse not better we're making the line [TS]

  worse not better we're making the line [TS]

  a feeling that's a kind of fearful well [TS]

  kind of thing versus to like oh my god [TS]

  vibrating feeling of like what is [TS]

  happening all the time [TS]

  yeah yeah what I mean what I didn't used [TS]

  to feel it what I now feel is I wake up [TS]

  in the morning and already I am I am [TS]

  struggling to catch my breath and just [TS]

  all day 1 i'm just like just struggling [TS]

  to catch my breath like I have a little [TS]

  like I have an i'm having a mild asthma [TS]

  yeah and I never used to have that [TS]

  feeling at all I mean justjust it was [TS]

  basically it [TS]

  it was the feeling that I had an hour [TS]

  before I went on stage you know like not [TS]

  just like butterflies in your stomach [TS]

  kind of thing you have described this [TS]

  before right that but it when somebody [TS]

  says hey we want you to play a show i [TS]

  always say great and then immediately [TS]

  start to pretend that I didn't say that [TS]

  and a month or two go by and they sent [TS]

  me emails like that shows coming up and [TS]

  I'm like I just like delete but as the [TS]

  show starts to loom i start to wish that [TS]

  I had not agreed to do it even if I know [TS]

  it's gonna be a great show [TS]

  even if it's like the beginning of a [TS]

  tour I start to think like why did I say [TS]

  that I would think this and as the show [TS]

  gets closer I start to feel like I [TS]

  really hope that there's a storm and I [TS]

  hope there's a storm and the show's [TS]

  canceled [TS]

  I telling you that feeling yeah and then [TS]

  the night of the show [TS]

  I'm like what if the wheel came off of [TS]

  my car and I had a mild accident where [TS]

  no one was hurt but enough of an [TS]

  accident that I had a plausible reason [TS]

  for naught but a lot of people think [TS]

  that's like Dylan's motorcycle accident [TS]

  was he just like laid down and said [TS]

  sorry [TS]

  oh yeah I me now we're back to 80 women [TS]

  and dylanologists but a lot of people [TS]

  think that like he was he really had [TS]

  just kind of reached the end of it and [TS]

  that he you know kinda took a dive and [TS]

  was not hurt nearly as bad but like just [TS]

  needed that time to like just not have [TS]

  to deal [TS]

  yeah I have no I have no doubt about it [TS]

  and I've told you about right the one [TS]

  time that that did happen when I I'd put [TS]

  together a show with david bazan and [TS]

  Kathleen Edwards [TS]

  and my friend Laura my radkin and we had [TS]

  booked the triple door in Seattle and [TS]

  we'd all learned each other songs and we [TS]

  were going to get up on stage and we're [TS]

  gonna play for of Kathleen's all I saw [TS]

  the videos that we've got something in [TS]

  the video you guys rehearsing [TS]

  yes my god that was exquisite so that [TS]

  was so so we had this we have this show [TS]

  that we had worked out and it was all [TS]

  just this imagination of like what if [TS]

  Dave and Kathleen and I and Laura all [TS]

  just were a band and we did four five [TS]

  songs of each other students and and and [TS]

  it was a crazy idea but once we got in [TS]

  the room there was real energy and we [TS]

  and the song sounded incredible that way [TS]

  and we went we were it was a summer [TS]

  weekend that we were sitting in my house [TS]

  but the windows open and the doors open [TS]

  just playing our music and it was one of [TS]

  those sort of pure musician experiences [TS]

  where it's just like I just I don't want [TS]

  this to end I mean this is hard it's [TS]

  hard to learn this music but like it's [TS]

  the best kind of hard and then we went [TS]

  down to the triple door there was a line [TS]

  of people out the door to see the show [TS]

  we were Hearst on stage we ran through [TS]

  four five songs it was like and they [TS]

  sounded incredible and this was exactly [TS]

  the room for it and we were just looking [TS]

  at each other like it's going to be a [TS]

  magical night this is already a magic [TS]

  night and then it started to rain in the [TS]

  theater and we're standing on stage [TS]

  we're playing like we're playing our [TS]

  song still we're in the middle of a song [TS]

  and throughout the theater it's just [TS]

  rain and not a light rain like storm [TS]

  rain and we're where we continue the [TS]

  song and we're all looking out at the [TS]

  seats as they get drenched and it's so [TS]

  surreal that like we don't stop we don't [TS]

  stop playing and all of a sudden like [TS]

  the staff of the restaurant is screaming [TS]

  and running around and and we're still [TS]

  playing and thinking like [TS]

  this is weird and we get to the end of [TS]

  the tune and we stare out at the at the [TS]

  theater which is now a scene of complete [TS]

  devastation and i'm standing on stage [TS]

  still thinking like well we better get [TS]

  this cleaned up and there's like four [TS]

  inches of water on everything and it [TS]

  dawns on us suddenly that like it's over [TS]

  what what happened was the restaurant [TS]

  upstairs [TS]

  somehow the drain had plugged and all of [TS]

  the drainage water from a night of from [TS]

  a from a big dinner service all of the [TS]

  greywater uh from the dishwasher in the [TS]

  kitchen had pooled in the floor but you [TS]

  know underneath their floor but above [TS]

  our ceiling until it was God eight [TS]

  inches of dirty water and then it just [TS]

  all at once just fell just soaked [TS]

  through the soaked through the material [TS]

  of the ceiling and then just storm it [TS]

  was surreal and it came down not as [TS]

  falling ceiling but as rain dirty rain [TS]

  and and we were we were playing the last [TS]

  song before doors were opening right if [TS]

  that had if it had taken a half an hour [TS]

  longer that dirty rain would have fallen [TS]

  on a on a full house and the end of the [TS]

  line of the crowd down the street and [TS]

  what had happened was I had probably two [TS]

  hours before would have been so glad if [TS]

  to to imagine that happening right [TS]

  because of that pre-show anxiety but I [TS]

  had crossed the threshold and was into [TS]

  the show like doors are doors are in [TS]

  five and all of us onstage had crossed [TS]

  that threshold we were we were over the [TS]

  hump and were in show mode and it was so [TS]

  incredible the experience of [TS]

  that show being canceled right in front [TS]

  of us and we had all put our energy on [TS]

  the table and I'd never had that [TS]

  experience before where the energy was [TS]

  out it was on the table and it was ready [TS]

  to go and then there was no where to put [TS]

  it and we none of us had had that [TS]

  experience before and we were we were [TS]

  sitting backstage in a complete days [TS]

  like our our whole show energy was out [TS]

  of us but had not gone anywhere and was [TS]

  not being reciprocated or you know there [TS]

  was nowhere for it to go to live and it [TS]

  it was seriously like like we had [TS]

  survived like we'd all been struck by [TS]

  lightning and their what it was we were [TS]

  nervous could talk it was it was very [TS]

  confusing our feelings were outside of [TS]

  our body already [TS]

  and so the next day somebody who had [TS]

  been it who had one of the people who [TS]

  had had meant to come to the show [TS]

  contacted us and said hey I'm one of the [TS]

  directors of the woodland park zoo would [TS]

  you guys like to come feed the giraffes [TS]

  and we were like yes we would [TS]

  and so all of us together went to the [TS]

  zoo and spent a couple of hours inside [TS]

  the giraffe enclosure just hand-feeding [TS]

  giraffes and it was a it was a brilliant [TS]

  insight that this person at the zoo [TS]

  somehow recognized either saw or just or [TS]

  or we just got lucky or God was watching [TS]

  out or something but somehow going and [TS]

  having this singular experience [TS]

  hand-feeding giraffes for a couple of [TS]

  hours [TS]

  was it allowed us to collect all that [TS]

  emotion back and you know that and feel [TS]

  like it had been used or or it's very [TS]

  hard to explain but what I mean for a [TS]

  month afterward I think we all just sort [TS]

  of walked around in a in a very strange [TS]

  state not an unpleasant one but like a [TS]

  singular one where you're where you're [TS]

  ready your ear [TS]

  off your actually on stage ready to go [TS]

  and and the show is cancelled my [TS]

  emotions are real emotions are real [TS]

  holy shit that must have been so strange [TS]

  yeah I still you know you can hear it [TS]

  just been describing it that I go back [TS]

  into a place of like profound confusion [TS]

  about what the Iran I'm like I'm feeling [TS]

  it again remember that feeling just like [TS]

  what does one do with what does one do [TS]

  when there is no climax and so you have [TS]

  the energy and maybe i'm repeating what [TS]

  you said but it's almost like there was [TS]

  no different receptors there's no [TS]

  receptacles right energy just it didn't [TS]

  exactly dissipate but like where did it [TS]

  go because it was kind of still didn't [TS]

  really you know it's you just extend of [TS]

  real emotion you load up the torpedo [TS]

  tubes and then you know nothing you [TS]

  surface and go back home and it's just [TS]

  like whoa whoa that's it there's a lot [TS]

  of danger [TS]

  it feels very dangerous to be like [TS]

  sailing into port with with full torpedo [TS]

  tubes right [TS]

  yes I'm sorry this is this is so such a [TS]

  wonderful topic and i get i'm hearing [TS]

  dick jokes in my head haha alright but [TS]

  so as far as now today [TS]

  yeah are you can you can you and do you [TS]

  choose to locate what this with any [TS]

  specificity with those emotions are when [TS]

  you walk out from talking to [TS]

  firefighters and you feel like a boy [TS]

  something's going on like it is it [TS]

  are you aware of like how that evidence [TS]

  is in your feelings thoughts and and [TS]

  maybe even physicality are but can you [TS]

  locate what it is that you've that's [TS]

  making you feel that way what that [TS]

  feeling is one this is the thing that [TS]

  this ultimately is is the actual [TS]

  learning experience of this of this [TS]

  undertaking the thing i have to learn is [TS]

  not what this you know what the state [TS]

  policy [TS]

  is on red control right because that is [TS]

  just interesting and easy to learn and [TS]

  not emotional [TS]

  that is just policy but the thing i have [TS]

  to learn is what is going on and what is [TS]

  going on inside me and how can I turn [TS]

  that energy to be more useful to people [TS]

  and less you know like my anxiousness [TS]

  and my my anxiousness is a sign that i [TS]

  really think that this is important [TS]

  absolutely and that if you don't think [TS]

  about like stage fright or whatever you [TS]

  want to call it right there are those [TS]

  butterflies like you and I think we've [TS]

  talked about this but like if you didn't [TS]

  feel anything before you went onstage [TS]

  for two years like that should tell you [TS]

  something you're not challenging [TS]

  yourself or you stop caring you know [TS]

  right but how do i turn that energy so [TS]

  that I am a more effective public [TS]

  servant so that I am somebody who is [TS]

  more useful to people as an agent of of [TS]

  getting things happening and and and [TS]

  making good policy right and not get it [TS]

  it isn't about my comfort in and of [TS]

  itself it is about like my discomfort as [TS]

  another as another lever and and so i'm [TS]

  i'm very aware of it and and and I [TS]

  realized like when up when I am asked to [TS]

  write policy about things that I feel [TS]

  like our out of my out of my world of [TS]

  interest [TS]

  I i don't really support me i don't [TS]

  really have a I don't have an emotional [TS]

  block about like reading about stuff i [TS]

  don't understand asking people who know [TS]

  better about stuff [TS]

  who can explain what i don't understand [TS]

  to me like that stuff is just that's [TS]

  just exciting and something that says [TS]

  you say that he feels like that's the [TS]

  work that's the work that part that part [TS]

  is is not that ambiguous it's there's a [TS]

  thing over here that has to be dealt [TS]

  with and then when you're done dealing [TS]

  with it there's other things to deal [TS]

  with [TS]

  I think it's much more to do with the [TS]

  fact that i am a person who it you know [TS]

  i am i am a personality characterized by [TS]

  self-doubt and a certain amount of it is [TS]

  healthy self doubt and a certain amount [TS]

  of it is unhealthy self-doubt and I [TS]

  almost always trying to move the needle [TS]

  back to healthy self down right um but I [TS]

  am in a world where where you the [TS]

  expectation is that you express no [TS]

  self-doubt and right and the other [TS]

  candidates do not show very much self [TS]

  down i happen to know that the other [TS]

  people in my race hat do have [TS]

  considerable self-doubt they are human [TS]

  beings and I and I like them and there [TS]

  are there you know all three of the guys [TS]

  I'm running against do have like [TS]

  emotional lives but when I walk into the [TS]

  firefighters union this afternoon and [TS]

  they start talking to me about their [TS]

  pensions and I start answering questions [TS]

  about you know my feelings about the [TS]

  firefighters pensions and how important [TS]

  those are that there is no room in that [TS]

  conversation for me for my self-doubt [TS]

  because they don't have time for it you [TS]

  know they just want to hear whether or [TS]

  not i support their position and so [TS]

  being in in those were in those rooms [TS]

  because as a as a musician and as an [TS]

  artist and as somebody who was living in [TS]

  the world that I had made for myself I [TS]

  brought that self-doubt with me [TS]

  everywhere and I used it as a [TS]

  there if I were if I was in a [TS]

  conversation with somebody and they had [TS]

  no room for myself down I left that [TS]

  conversation and said you are a monster [TS]

  I'm not you know I'm not here to I'm not [TS]

  here to perform for you done to yourself [TS]

  down i mean i think it's slightly [TS]

  different than the well stroll but i [TS]

  think the self-doubt can be a companion [TS]

  in some ways it keeps you keep the kind [TS]

  of honest it jumps you it keeps you [TS]

  practical in some cases and maybe [TS]

  something that doesn't help you every [TS]

  single time I mean that becomes like a [TS]

  companion in some ways that an easy [TS]

  companion but I I don't think that's a [TS]

  horrible thing but it's more it's more [TS]

  it's more effective than normal when [TS]

  you're walking around being a musician [TS]

  mhm well and the thing is i can [TS]

  introduce that little friend of people [TS]

  at the firefighters union yeah I and [TS]

  that thing is I can't live without it [TS]

  that it that is a that is one of a part [TS]

  of my character and it will I think make [TS]

  me a better public servant but I'm being [TS]

  asked to perform in a circus where that [TS]

  is not one of the that's not what people [TS]

  paid the ticket price for right you [TS]

  don't you don't sit in front of the in [TS]

  front of a an executive board and say [TS]

  you know that question has played me and [TS]

  not because I worry about your pensions [TS]

  but more because pensions are emblematic [TS]

  of a of a deeper question of that the [TS]

  role that the state plays and providing [TS]

  for you know and that's just their [TS]

  already like King right there looking [TS]

  for their bail [TS]

  they're like that's not where we don't [TS]

  you know we this what we didn't sign up [TS]

  for a class we signed up for a 30-minute [TS]

  interview with you where you tell us [TS]

  either what we want to hear or you couch [TS]

  or give us an idea what we have to fight [TS]

  oh yeah that's right and I've described [TS]

  this to you before right that I've heard [TS]

  from several people like people come up [TS]

  to me and say I don't like your opponent [TS]

  but I know where he stands and the fact [TS]

  that I know where he stands allows me to [TS]

  make plan [TS]

  and i have a 40 million dollar hole in [TS]

  the ground downtown that I'm two days [TS]

  away from pouring concrete into and the [TS]

  fact that your opponent is either for or [TS]

  against it is less important to me than [TS]

  that I know exactly what he's going to [TS]

  do and so although i don't like him and [TS]

  I might like you [TS]

  the fact that I don't know what you're [TS]

  going to do is scarier to me then that I [TS]

  do know that he is against me and it's [TS]

  incredibly fascinating and I just go [TS]

  because from you know from where I stand [TS]

  like the first time somebody said that [TS]

  to me I was like that they said you know [TS]

  it's really kind of scary to us that we [TS]

  don't know what you're going to do and I [TS]

  was like I know right [TS]

  isn't that great you're the agent of [TS]

  chaos and they're like it is not at all [TS]

  great and I'm like but but you mean you [TS]

  have a sense that i'm going to support [TS]

  you know like it was an environmental [TS]

  group talking to me and I was like you [TS]

  have a sense that i am like 1,000% an [TS]

  environmentalist and they're like what [TS]

  we do have a sense of it and we also [TS]

  know the not sure who you gonna deliver [TS]

  the built-in how yeah they're like we're [TS]

  very excited about it but your opponent [TS]

  has been a reliable and like gray [TS]

  colored vote on behalf of the basic [TS]

  environmental package he's he doesn't is [TS]

  not inspiring but he is reliable and I'm [TS]

  like but I mean don't you want inspiring [TS]

  and they're like well what we want is [TS]

  reliably inspiring and I was and and you [TS]

  know and facing that and being when well [TS]

  reliably inspiring that's like you're [TS]

  talking about lawful good they described [TS]

  it the hole in the ground situation you [TS]

  describe this before but i really get [TS]

  get it now I get it sits in a way you [TS]

  know it reminds you of this is kind of [TS]

  obscure but it's almost like finding out [TS]

  what judge you've been assigned like [TS]

  when you're when you're on one side of [TS]

  the of the of the case or another [TS]

  like when you find out what judge has [TS]

  been assigned to your case and there may [TS]

  be some judges that are way more [TS]

  favorable to your particular point of [TS]

  view than others but like once you find [TS]

  out the judges you have to craft a [TS]

  certain kind [TS]

  of offense or defense depending on who [TS]

  that person is right so even if it's the [TS]

  hanging judge and you're the defense at [TS]

  least now you you it's a noble thing is [TS]

  like it seems like i may not be [TS]

  preferable but an officer's even the [TS]

  rain analogy but like it's you know you [TS]

  wouldn't want some some new cat coming [TS]

  in there who's like a real freethinker [TS]

  you'd be like well i know i need to know [TS]

  like how much just got a case going to [TS]

  cost to defend like who do I have to [TS]

  bring it is that where expert witnesses [TS]

  look let me look at your track record [TS]

  and see how you tend to adjudicate these [TS]

  things given certain conditions right [TS]

  that's much more desirable than going [TS]

  like here somebody who really believes [TS]

  in justice like okay great thank ya like [TS]

  what is this great one that's and the [TS]

  thing about a city council from the [TS]

  perspective of all these groups is what [TS]

  they're looking for is five out of nine [TS]

  votes [TS]

  they're not you know they did a the the [TS]

  vast majority of these groups do not [TS]

  look at individual council people in as [TS]

  much as they look at where that [TS]

  individual council person is going to [TS]

  fall in a in a split decision and so [TS]

  everybody wants five reliable votes the [TS]

  environmentalist 15 reliable votes the [TS]

  transit nerds 15 reliable votes the cops [TS]

  want five reliable votes and so an [TS]

  election like this is there that it's [TS]

  for them it's much more of a scorecard [TS]

  and they say okay we've got this person [TS]

  and this person they are you know where [TS]

  the incumbent they're doing well in the [TS]

  race and we know that their vote for us [TS]

  and now there's these other seats where [TS]

  it's unclear who's going to win and we [TS]

  need to know like where the weather the [TS]

  candidates are vote for us or not and in [TS]

  my case I'm running against the [TS]

  incumbent and everybody knows exactly [TS]

  where he fits into their scorecard right [TS]

  and and unfortunately for me of everyone [TS]

  in the race in the you know of all 65 [TS]

  people or whatever who are running for [TS]

  seattle city council right now [TS]

  I'm the one that is the most unknowable [TS]

  for everyone for the cops and ru [TS]

  accounting for how higher profile is [TS]

  compared to the longtail candidates for [TS]

  you think generally straight up like [TS]

  you're the most like I noble I'm the [TS]

  most noble not only because I don't you [TS]

  know I don't come from a siloed [TS]

  background i'm not you know if you are [TS]

  good people couldn't read your resume [TS]

  and gas exactly what you'll do exactly [TS]

  and so you know I'm trying to populate [TS]

  my campaign with writing that that lays [TS]

  it out but even that you know I don't [TS]

  have a voting record right it's very [TS]

  easy in a campaign to say when elected I [TS]

  will put a baby in every pot but unless [TS]

  you have unless you have voted for a [TS]

  baby in every pot five times or [TS]

  conversely voted to not put babies in [TS]

  pots it's all the kids that are my big [TS]

  pot you know [TS]

  yeah I'm not that's right i'm not you [TS]

  know bump I'm not inside not in service [TS]

  to big baby either [TS]

  oh my god keep going oh my god we could [TS]

  stop there that's so good buddy i wanna [TS]

  hear more [TS]

  yeah so i imagining an actual large big [TS]

  where you gonna go on this boat but [TS]

  that's where you're gonna go babysit [TS]

  pops or not so yeah so emotionally right [TS]

  I I because there are a lot of things at [TS]

  stake here you want to be everybody [TS]

  who's running for office wants to be [TS]

  liked by everybody except for the people [TS]

  who are running for office specifically [TS]

  because they hate a certain kind of [TS]

  civic leader the guy wears a boot on his [TS]

  head but like unless you're like did [TS]

  they be the deliberate like outsider [TS]

  candidate or no or allow the insiders [TS]

  are insiders but are like i am here to [TS]

  fight big developers looks like what [TS]

  does that mean yes [TS]

  yeah dude who are they and what you know [TS]

  but that's not but that's not politics [TS]

  to say what does that mean what's [TS]

  politics is to say I'm here to fight big [TS]

  developers and then everybody in the [TS]

  room goes yeah a big developers are bad [TS]

  hole here's the thing for the hole in [TS]

  the ground person like getting somebody [TS]

  in there who's incredibly incompetent [TS]

  that holds that point you might actually [TS]

  be kind of good for them [TS]

  absolutely i mean i'm not being extreme [TS]

  not all you plan around that stuff it's [TS]

  you know it's the supreme court stuff [TS]

  it's not you don't have to get a [TS]

  unanimous verdict you are trying to win [TS]

  and if you know that four people on the [TS]

  council are against you and you know [TS]

  that for our for you then you can just [TS]

  focus your attention on the one which is [TS]

  Victor which is which feels very [TS]

  efficient to a lot of political [TS]

  operatives you know it's like I think [TS]

  it's super interesting way to look at it [TS]

  like the swing thug [TS]

  yeah we don't have to we don't have to [TS]

  expend any energy on those four people [TS]

  that we know are against us and the fact [TS]

  that they are you know that one of them [TS]

  is really smart and one of them is [TS]

  really dumb [TS]

  you know one of them is a Scalia and one [TS]

  of them is Thomas like wall then wait a [TS]

  minute so but it's something let's say [TS]

  that the evil John Roderick okay [TS]

  somebody with a mustache comes in here [TS]

  who literally mustache no but like in [TS]

  that case doesn't that kind of benefit [TS]

  the we don't know what they'll do person [TS]

  because now they can leverage that if [TS]

  they were that sort of person [TS]

  well yeah except if they get the sense [TS]

  that that person is a person of [TS]

  principle [TS]

  you know if I were running for office [TS]

  and all of these groups smelled on me [TS]

  that I was someone who was corrupt [TS]

  someone who is capable of being coerced [TS]

  or bought or you know and this is why [TS]

  people say like wheel of a situation [TS]

  where it's a dumb candidate and a smart [TS]

  staff because you can go talk to the [TS]

  staff and say what do you guys want you [TS]

  guys want out of this like if we give [TS]

  you if you give us this and we give you [TS]

  that [TS]

  how does that feel in the staff goes [TS]

  well that benefits my career and I'm not [TS]

  the one out front [TS]

  who's going to get caught with his hand [TS]

  in a bag so you know the staff makes the [TS]

  deal and then they say to the [TS]

  their candidate like here's what we [TS]

  should do on this is the candidate goes [TS]

  oh really great i can edit he's got a [TS]

  big hair and he goes out and and people [TS]

  vote for his hair and a and that's how [TS]

  politics goes but so these groups you [TS]

  know they if I were malleable and they [TS]

  didn't know what I was going to do sure [TS]

  they be like great here's a and there [TS]

  are people absolutely at every level of [TS]

  politics that walk into every room and [TS]

  say what can I do for you [TS]

  uh-huh the problem is that they smell on [TS]

  me that i am not that I that they don't [TS]

  know what I'm going to do and also they [TS]

  are not confident that they can reach me [TS]

  through the normal back door and I am I [TS]

  had a few people in my life where I [TS]

  didn't realize until too late how [TS]

  important it was to them that I owed [TS]

  them a favor [TS]

  oh yes there are many people like this [TS]

  and they are perpetually they seem so [TS]

  nice and so dad like in some ways but [TS]

  there are these people who want to make [TS]

  sure you owe them at least a couple [TS]

  favors all the time and sometimes don't [TS]

  insert them like kind of like oh here's [TS]

  the thing i did for you and then she [TS]

  gets like I'm magic sound like playing [TS]

  pool and like extending the queue and [TS]

  like moving a little clicker down the [TS]

  string i think you must run into that [TS]

  there must be people who are just always [TS]

  like I just I will always just keep [TS]

  doing these like little things for [TS]

  people and that will accumulate [TS]

  eventually on the day of my daughter's [TS]

  wedding at the heck did they may come i [TS]

  will come to you and ask a favor of here [TS]

  that's right that's right that's how it [TS]

  works [TS]

  put my boy back together they did my boy [TS]

  um uh it's absolutely how it works and [TS]

  at every stage of the campaign there has [TS]

  there have been moments and I've after I [TS]

  think describe this before but like the [TS]

  path to corruption is not a big bag of [TS]

  money it is a tiny little incremental [TS]

  failures to make failures to stand on [TS]

  your own principal and people come up to [TS]

  me every single day and there's nothing [TS]

  dishonest about it is not it is not a [TS]

  it's not a process [TS]

  uh of organized deceit it is not a [TS]

  conspiracy [TS]

  it is just people saying hi I see you're [TS]

  running i like what i see i would like [TS]

  you I'd like to give you an opportunity [TS]

  to be my friend and in exchange for that [TS]

  I will do what I can to help you and it [TS]

  feels very natural it feels very human [TS]

  and humane and year and when you're on a [TS]

  campaign you're struggling you want [TS]

  friends you want people to say we are [TS]

  here to support you and we're not asking [TS]

  anything except very small thing which [TS]

  is just that you be our friend and [TS]

  remember this moment and you go wow that [TS]

  seems like such set that's so easy [TS]

  they're going to support me and all i [TS]

  have to do is remember that there my [TS]

  friend I will take that deal thank you [TS]

  so much and you're just trying to put [TS]

  together enough friends to get into [TS]

  office but you realize that every one of [TS]

  those people is remembering that favor [TS]

  and that's their job to do and if you if [TS]

  you don't have a a core if your values [TS]

  aren't your own then in the course of a [TS]

  campaign it only takes one campaign to [TS]

  get to the end and realize like oh I [TS]

  promised everybody I promised everything [TS]

  to everybody and now and and now I'm in [TS]

  office and I'm excited about that and so [TS]

  you know if each person who walks in [TS]

  here i'm going to try and accommodate [TS]

  and not because i'm looking for the best [TS]

  solution that helps everybody but just [TS]

  because I've already know because I've [TS]

  already given a little piece of myself [TS]

  to everybody and it's uh it's [TS]

  astonishing how easy it is to be to be [TS]

  corrupted and let alone when you get in [TS]

  there and somebody comes and says [TS]

  remember when I remember when we [TS]

  endorsed you and I got 70,000 members of [TS]

  my organization to come out and fight [TS]

  for you like you would not be here [TS]

  without [TS]

  me uh-huh and that's hardball politics [TS]

  and you know it's what I love about the [TS]

  Sierra Club like they sat down with me [TS]

  and and we talked and they were like you [TS]

  know why would we endorse you like we [TS]

  have endorsed her opponent in the last [TS]

  three elections it would be it would be [TS]

  a nail they don't want to change and [TS]

  only sources to be a real violation of [TS]

  policy and I was like wouldn't you like [TS]

  to have somebody on out there that [TS]

  really was like really on your team and [TS]

  they were like you know what yes we [TS]

  would [TS]

  and they endorse me and they have not [TS]

  like they didn't ask me for anything [TS]

  then and they really have not made a big [TS]

  deal of it sense they were just like you [TS]

  know what he's our guy and now I run [TS]

  into them and they're just like they [TS]

  seem happy to see me and there's no [TS]

  sense of because I because I already was [TS]

  ahead of them on like the Sierra Club is [TS]

  never going to come to me and say we [TS]

  really need to do this thing that you [TS]

  find distasteful right like I'm already [TS]

  i was just like listen you guys draft [TS]

  off of me on this because I'm you know [TS]

  like I got this part of it but but the [TS]

  the you know there's a there are so many [TS]

  issues where any reasonable person [TS]

  what kind of fall somewhere in the [TS]

  middle you know and it really is [TS]

  difficult to know where you to know [TS]

  where you land and that is normal and [TS]

  that should be part of good government [TS]

  that should that should be part of the [TS]

  discussion like there's there's nine of [TS]

  us up here and seven of us think that [TS]

  this is kind of this is sort of a guinea [TS]

  or their seven of seven of us up here [TS]

  that don't even understand the question [TS]

  or there are you know there are six of [TS]

  us who feel like group a has a good [TS]

  point but they're kind of overplaying [TS]

  their hand a little bit and Group B has [TS]

  a weaker point but they're they're being [TS]

  kind of noble you know like that stuff [TS]

  that's just like that's people business [TS]

  but there's no real there's no real [TS]

  place for that in a campaign in a [TS]

  campaign you are your four against stuff [TS]

  right and if you start to have nuance [TS]

  just like then they ring the bell [TS]

  like 30 seconds are up thank you for [TS]

  your time [TS]