Roderick on the Line

Ep. 165: "This Explains Everything"


  this episode of Roderick online is [TS]

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  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John hi Merlin is goin good i [TS]

  just got to my office and there was a [TS]

  nice gift waiting [TS]

  it's a graphic novel called the Divine [TS]

  it was a gift from ryan cons Brooks and [TS]

  he said that it is a it would be a good [TS]

  book for Roger on the line because it [TS]

  has Vietcong and owls and a bomb [TS]

  technician and some mysticism how men [TS]

  that who isn't that a thoughtful gift [TS]

  that's incredibly violent man i love [TS]

  getting presence [TS]

  yeah graphic novels that should have [TS]

  been written by us or about us provide [TS]

  us [TS]

  oh you know I have the you know Jeff [TS]

  Gordon's fantastic beginning to a [TS]

  graphic novel i think it still is it [TS]

  still pregnant with possibility [TS]

  uh-huh but it would be it would have to [TS]

  be 7,000 pages we can crowdsource that [TS]

  it could be like when they remade Star [TS]

  Wars to see a scene at a time you know [TS]

  browsers have people do a page [TS]

  everybody does a page well I mean [TS]

  hopefully find 7,000 people but it can [TS]

  be like american splendor whatever [TS]

  wherever you are [TS]

  people would get mad at him and stop [TS]

  drawing his comic book and then somebody [TS]

  else would start and set the reason i [TS]

  don't know i always assumed you seem [TS]

  like a pretty easy like a pretty prickly [TS]

  character [TS]

  I'll i really loved his work [TS]

  particularly the oh yeah all the great [TS]

  collaborations all great [TS]

  I you know I know him i've looked at [TS]

  American Splendor I haven't spent much [TS]

  time with that I mainly know him from [TS]

  Letterman yeah where he was just here I [TS]

  think amongst the early Letterman [TS]

  standouts he was a special stand out [TS]

  because he I mean I think we talked [TS]

  about this before but unlike somebody [TS]

  like Charles Grodin I don't think it was [TS]

  a bit i think he genuinely hate Dave [TS]

  yeah sure sure he hated being there [TS]

  there's a lot there's a lot about Dave [TS]

  to hate but yeah he he hated he was so [TS]

  much hate in the world some get em John [TS]

  ok [TS]

  so much hate I'm how do you feel about [TS]

  Dennis Eichorn he talked about that as I [TS]

  corn uh-huh i don't i don't know i am [TS]

  not familiar with this works so similar [TS]

  situation all of his all of his workers [TS]

  collaboration with other artists and so [TS]

  his comic books have no there's not a [TS]

  real like unifying artistic are unifying [TS]

  artist let's say right and so you know [TS]

  it's autobiographical comics but over [TS]

  the course of multiple volumes you get [TS]

  the you get all these different peoples [TS]

  take on what he looks like and what the [TS]

  world looks like it's a it because the [TS]

  heart becomes like another character you [TS]

  know comic fans but you know also comic [TS]

  creators get our rap you know for being [TS]

  nerds understandably but the people that [TS]

  I know who make comics their work what [TS]

  blows me away because I mean the quality [TS]

  of work that people managed to produce [TS]

  incredible but what you're describing is [TS]

  is how the process generally works which [TS]

  is there's one person who writes a [TS]

  script and there's another person and [TS]

  maybe even another country who's doing [TS]

  the drawings and that's not including [TS]

  the people who in caller eight you know [TS]

  that ends up having a huge impact on how [TS]

  it looks but it takes a ridiculous [TS]

  amount of collaboration like down to the [TS]

  point where like you think the thing is [TS]

  done but now you have to reduce the [TS]

  amount of dialogue to fit in the [TS]

  available space for the word balloons [TS]

  oh word balloons but it's invite like [TS]

  it's you know it's it's it's like you [TS]

  know it's one thing to collaborate on a [TS]

  novel or something but I mean that's [TS]

  just all words and you can kind of make [TS]

  it sound the same but I don't know they [TS]

  get some an amazing process i would like [TS]

  to someday not today probably but i like [TS]

  to someday explore your past [TS]

  relationship with comics which which you [TS]

  know it's kind of a bit that you know [TS]

  you make fun of the comics people but [TS]

  you also seem to have had a fair number [TS]

  of grown-up funny books you've liked [TS]

  over the years mmmm [TS]

  and you know I i am a product of the [TS]

  comics i am i am a man made almost [TS]

  entirely of comics this from your time [TS]

  at the end you stand no no my whole life [TS]

  I mean I was a kid in comics I was a [TS]

  preteen in comics I was a teen in comics [TS]

  but i but i always was i always felt ask [TS]

  you I always felt out out of the gang [TS]

  not I didn't like the comics that other [TS]

  kids liked and the comics that i [TS]

  did--like i couldn't find any money to [TS]

  share in those comics [TS]

  uh-huh you know I couldn't find a single [TS]

  other eleven-year-old that like trots [TS]

  and Bonnie and I was starved for trucks [TS]

  and Bonnie I wanted every bit of trucks [TS]

  and Bonnie I could find [TS]

  that's funny but nobody had ever heard [TS]

  of trucks and Bonnie and no band that's [TS]

  just wasn't a world than any other kids [TS]

  wanted to share and sherry Fleniken [TS]

  that's rides i actually I actually wrote [TS]

  her one time asking if she would send me [TS]

  a drawing [TS]

  well it looks really old timey longer [TS]

  it's wonderful [TS]

  oh wow look at this is in National [TS]

  Lampoon's that right was in the National [TS]

  Lampoon which wich eleven-year-old [TS]

  should not be allowed access to all boy [TS]

  that's it wasn't too long after eleven [TS]

  when I discovered national and pin yeah [TS]

  and-and-and so that was so that was [TS]

  always the problem right [TS]

  eleven-year-olds twelve-year-olds uh i [TS]

  mean i was into Lord of the Rings like [TS]

  anyone but i also just was just was so [TS]

  crazy about national lampoon couldn't [TS]

  find a single other kid that had ever [TS]

  heard of it let alone cared about it so [TS]

  so the comics were always another comics [TS]

  just like music right i mean i make fun [TS]

  of music people in them just so i have [TS]

  so many like obviously strong things to [TS]

  say about musics but also i am [TS]

  completely made of music I just was [TS]

  always outside the [TS]

  I don't mean the mainstream i mean i was [TS]

  outside of the alternative mainstream I [TS]

  mean right you and I were always going [TS]

  to be alternative people but the the [TS]

  problem is ru ru in the are you in the [TS]

  stream or you out of the stream and if [TS]

  you're if you're if I always dreamt of [TS]

  being like alt but right in the heart of [TS]

  alt the alt aesthetic right and my taste [TS]

  was like right in the center and I [TS]

  thought all the things that were cool [TS]

  were cool and I thought all the things [TS]

  that were uncool uncool and I was like [TS]

  in I i was always going to be an [TS]

  alternative culture person but I also [TS]

  thought that alternative culture was [TS]

  stupid but it took I mean the thing is [TS]

  it's ai ai ai ai no this is so obvious [TS]

  and I say it all the time but I can [TS]

  really can never get over how different [TS]

  everything is today in in one important [TS]

  way he was talking to somebody about [TS]

  this recently just about how how [TS]

  difficult it was to engage with anything [TS]

  that wasn't in the mainstream but how [TS]

  difficult it was to even find out what [TS]

  your options were [TS]

  yeah that you had to go i mean like for [TS]

  me like Rolling Stone magazine seemed a [TS]

  little bit radical for a time I mean [TS]

  eventually that would become like [TS]

  maximum rock'n'roll or something but [TS]

  even that's like that's like that's a [TS]

  scene that you can get more or less [TS]

  nationally it's you you have a rabbi to [TS]

  like kind of make a tape for you to [TS]

  explain what your options even were yeah [TS]

  and the and the you know the problem for [TS]

  us you and me our age is that there was [TS]

  there was boot that the kind of boomer [TS]

  alternative culture fabulous very freak [TS]

  brothers wii magazine all these things [TS]

  we've talked about but that didn't [TS]

  belong to us we were too young for them [TS]

  and so you would discover them you know [TS]

  you discover a pile of of of you know [TS]

  magazines that had naked pictures in [TS]

  them but also a lot of cultural stuff [TS]

  comics and were like underground comix [TS]

  underground comics and and [TS]

  and you know like even the stereo [TS]

  reviews in oui magazine were interesting [TS]

  right it's not it was before was before [TS]

  lad magazines had digress to just being [TS]

  advertising you know you'd read the read [TS]

  the hifi reviews in one of those [TS]

  nineteen seventies kind of men's [TS]

  magazines and they were really [TS]

  well-written contentious argumentative [TS]

  so but but it was all because you know [TS]

  because they're their vision of the [TS]

  future there nineteen seventies vision [TS]

  of the future was that you know smoking [TS]

  pot was something that a that a that [TS]

  cultured cool intelligent people did and [TS]

  and they spent their money on on their [TS]

  stereo systems and their clothes mean it [TS]

  was like pre war on drugs and pre aids [TS]

  uh-huh [TS]

  it seemed like the future and and it [TS]

  seems like this is what the district [TS]

  cool people are going to be doing now [TS]

  and this situation the seventies as [TS]

  being people not even realizing how much [TS]

  it was still the sixties in a lot of [TS]

  ways but at the same time eventually not [TS]

  it realizing how much like the eighties [TS]

  it was becoming yeah right it was a [TS]

  friend and as a ten-year-old I was just [TS]

  excited initially to get pictures of [TS]

  naked ladies [TS]

  uh-huh but then eighty percent of those [TS]

  magazines were articles and when you sit [TS]

  with them long enough you know it was 10 [TS]

  years old was before I knew how to [TS]

  masturbate [TS]

  so I just why don't I don't even know [TS]

  why I wanted pictures of naked ladies I [TS]

  just wanted them right they were [TS]

  something i was denied and so you get [TS]

  them and you look at the naked ladies [TS]

  and you go wow they're naked [TS]

  uh-huh and then pretty soon run out of [TS]

  things to do and start reading the [TS]

  articles and and and yet it wasn't you [TS]

  know that stuff wasn't meant for me [TS]

  write it was meant for people that had [TS]

  lived through the sixties or people who [TS]

  were 22 and and I was 10 and so that set [TS]

  me on course when [TS]

  when punk rock arrived I was already had [TS]

  it in a way it was like completely [TS]

  revolutionary and scary to me and and [TS]

  compelling but i also was aware two of [TS]

  the things that you know it punk wasn't [TS]

  the first time I heard about prague or [TS]

  whatever else you know so it was I was [TS]

  just so lame to be a kid I wish I could [TS]

  go back and just put myself in a bubble [TS]

  is insufferable but you know that's what [TS]

  that's ninety percent of what this [TS]

  program is about how terrible 1977 ones [TS]

  yeah 80 80 80 was terrible yeah yeah but [TS]

  you know it's it's it's the older you [TS]

  get the more you you have time to [TS]

  evaluate like what made a horrible it's [TS]

  like for a long time you think well I'd [TS]

  if I had more information [TS]

  mmm things would be better if I had more [TS]

  exposure to things things would be [TS]

  better i just think i have to be honest [TS]

  now I really feel like I just would have [TS]

  different problems I just would've been [TS]

  screwed up in a different way i think [TS]

  that's that's the dirty little secret of [TS]

  being what between the ages of let's say [TS]

  11 and 17 isn't it has to be a mess [TS]

  yeah and yeah and I did I definitely [TS]

  didn't need more information I had more [TS]

  than I could handle but-but-but comics [TS]

  you know comics saved my life just as [TS]

  much as they saved anybody else's life i [TS]

  just could not abide superheroes who and [TS]

  there are so many comics so many acres [TS]

  and acres of comics that a then I was i [TS]

  I was buried under them just as much as [TS]

  anybody else was but when I popped up [TS]

  out of that pile waving some mysterious [TS]

  thing I'd found and saying look at this [TS]

  is amazing i could not find a single [TS]

  other kit to share in that with me and [TS]

  part of that is is being from Alaska i [TS]

  think if i was living in ohio i might [TS]

  have finally found some other weird oh [TS]

  yeah um a lot of weirdos in Ohio you [TS]

  know what every weirdo i know is from [TS]

  Ohio you know about Texas and Florida [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  wanna know I i feel like the weirdos [TS]

  that I know from Texas and Florida when [TS]

  you really get down to it they're not [TS]

  weirdos they are they're adapting yeah [TS]

  well they do some weird stuff but [TS]

  ultimately like they're the cool normal [TS]

  people i mean you know i have one friend [TS]

  from Florida who's who's pretty fucking [TS]

  weird but what it what it really is is [TS]

  that his dad was really weird and he's [TS]

  been working and he's been working that [TS]

  off his whole life but the people i know [TS]

  from ohio or just generally so this is [TS]

  the thing right the people in Texas and [TS]

  and in California and Florida that I [TS]

  that I know personally that are weird [TS]

  when you really dig down into him their [TS]

  regular and I mean that in the best [TS]

  possible way the people from ohio seemed [TS]

  really regular that's why I yeah I yeah [TS]

  okay I get what you mean but you dig [TS]

  down inside of them and they're and like [TS]

  they are thinking about having sex with [TS]

  an octopus who you know what I mean like [TS]

  them and you and they look at me just [TS]

  like what are you doing today and [TS]

  they're just like nothing but they're [TS]

  really thinking about having sex with [TS]

  anonymous or something worse since i [TS]

  made a good case for this and explain [TS]

  what it's like to be from like the [TS]

  middle of Pennsylvania where you know he [TS]

  was into certain kind of hair metal but [TS]

  he's also into his church and so you [TS]

  know he's talked about how weird stuff [TS]

  gets in the suburbs you know in the [TS]

  middle of Pennsylvania which I i [TS]

  instantly understood what he meant [TS]

  even though for me that was usually [TS]

  actually florida which is like you know [TS]

  you don't have enough exposure to know [TS]

  how weird you really are like if you [TS]

  ever tried to go make a case for what [TS]

  you're doing to other people like if [TS]

  you're weird if you're in California [TS]

  Florida or Texas work like you'll find [TS]

  lots you'll find a community of other [TS]

  weirdos neck that can help you [TS]

  recalibrate how you should be doing your [TS]

  weirdness [TS]

  yeah you have to be weird on your own in [TS]

  ohio well and so yes you have to be [TS]

  weird on your own and also it's like the [TS]

  the concentration of people in Ohio [TS]

  like you have to be weird on your own [TS]

  but you are surrounded by people it's a [TS]

  incredibly populous state and not a not [TS]

  a huge state but really full of people [TS]

  so even even if you're like farm Ohio [TS]

  you know there are farms all around you [TS]

  there's no sense like like you have out [TS]

  in the west where you can go somewhere [TS]

  and there's not gonna be anybody right [TS]

  and so that that I think is what that's [TS]

  that like draw the blinds and think [TS]

  you're weird thoughts and gain kind of [TS]

  stuff yeah right we got was first time I [TS]

  heard guided by voices I was like oh boy [TS]

  there's a tool shed out behind this [TS]

  guy's house that I never want to go in [TS]

  because he's cut he's got nipples [TS]

  drawing on hooks this episode of rock on [TS]

  the line is brought to you in part by [TS]

  braintree braintree is code for easy [TS]

  online payments to learn more right now [TS]

  please visit braintree payments calm / [TS]

  supertrain listen if you are a mobile [TS]

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  with a single integration across all [TS]

  platforms with superior fraud protection [TS]

  customer service and don't forget fast [TS]

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  first fifty thousand dollars in [TS]

  transactions fee-free please do go to [TS]

  braintree payments dot-com / supertrain [TS]

  and our thanks to braintree for [TS]

  supporting rod online [TS]

  yeah you can make your own culture [TS]

  yeah make your own culture that's right [TS]

  d.i.y I there there are some comic book [TS]

  artist that I still wish that I could [TS]

  sit down with Dennis I corners one Julie [TS]

  Doucette i just wish i could sit with [TS]

  them for a while and just be friends [TS]

  we should reach out to them i think [TS]

  dennis Eichorn lives and in the [TS]

  northwest lucky i think i even have his [TS]

  email address some time but i don't i'm [TS]

  not sure what I would say hi [TS]

  fine I know I know I know I yeah but [TS]

  yeah but I feel the same way sometimes [TS]

  I'll say hi to people on Twitter and it [TS]

  it feels incredibly random and i'm not [TS]

  sure why I'm doing it [TS]

  I'll just say thank you know I just [TS]

  really like that thing you do that's all [TS]

  yeah yeah I was gonna say you know I [TS]

  mean I'm even even know it Brubaker we [TS]

  deal [TS]

  yeah he and i were we were friends next [TS]

  comic state i know it does [TS]

  we're friends we he lived in seattle and [TS]

  we were coffee shop pals here here's [TS]

  your you always blow me away [TS]

  yeah we were coffee shop pals and I [TS]

  think he'll I think he liked my [TS]

  girlfriend and one day it was a hot [TS]

  summer day ever told you the story don't [TS]

  think so hot summer day were sitting [TS]

  around the cafe at brubakers there he [TS]

  stays working at levis vest cut the [TS]

  sleeves off hot looking pretty look [TS]

  pretty cool and I'm sitting there and [TS]

  we're both flirting with the coffee shop [TS]

  barista [TS]

  and I look over and then and I'm [TS]

  learning look at--look it under heads [TS]

  best animal yet are you are you wearing [TS]

  a shoulder holster and he goes smooth [TS]

  what oh yes well what do you know what [TS]

  you make and closes I'm like well I mean [TS]

  it's a hot summer day and we're all not [TS]

  wearing any clothes but you are wearing [TS]

  a vest and now i'm looking at it you're [TS]

  wearing a gun and he was wearing a gun [TS]

  in a shoulder holster and I would I was [TS]

  and that was not that was not customary [TS]

  at the time and I qwizdom on it and he [TS]

  didn't really wanna didn't really want [TS]

  to talk about it but it but it was not [TS]

  let's just let's just say that the levis [TS]

  best was not sufficient cover to also be [TS]

  wearing a shoulder holster it was like [TS]

  almost like wearing a black bra [TS]

  somewhere you kind of want people to [TS]

  notice it was learned it it was very [TS]

  much like wearing a black bra under [TS]

  under a thin white t-shirt [TS]

  uh-huh and you know but it was the early [TS]

  nineties we were all trying stuff out [TS]

  I'm not sure whether it's still carries [TS]

  a gun but early nineties you know it was [TS]

  sort of like well Who am I going to be [TS]

  what kind of guy am i going to be just [TS]

  trying stuff on [TS]

  yeah am I gonna be the shoulder holster [TS]

  under Levi's best guy I John data that [TS]

  is not something I see every day not [TS]

  only that's a silly generous look right [TS]

  and I mean this was pre fedora era right [TS]

  so you couldn't in 1992 you couldn't [TS]

  walk around Seattle wearing a fedora you [TS]

  just couldn't do it [TS]

  uh-huh wouldn't have flown but a but a [TS]

  shoulder holster huh maybe maybe so [TS]

  yeah but i had 90 each other pretty well [TS]

  and that in the time and it's easier is [TS]

  very well-regarded yeah he makes a lot [TS]

  of comics and he does he does i think [TS]

  arguably he did one of the best captain [TS]

  america's ever and his is none superior [TS]

  stuff he did something called the towel [TS]

  it's really good and it is something [TS]

  called velvet [TS]

  it's really good that you might like [TS]

  they're both kinda like no Norrish [TS]

  things while the twist nowhere dunno [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah he was a like he did [TS]

  lowlife comics back in the back in the [TS]

  old days and and was he was he started [TS]

  as an alternative comics guy and then [TS]

  moved into B into the men in tights or [TS]

  her stuff sounds like it's pretty rough [TS]

  to work for Marvel it's a pretty rough [TS]

  company is that right [TS]

  you mean like rough trade mm well you [TS]

  know their company they move pretty [TS]

  quick but yeah yeah yeahs something [TS]

  pretty pretty [TS]

  it's a lot of work and you know they [TS]

  don't ya the names you hear about they [TS]

  don't get paid as much as people would [TS]

  think oh right i mean they're great [TS]

  they're artists great and it's hard to [TS]

  do and it takes a long time and then [TS]

  they get ripped off I wonder I wonder if [TS]

  there are any other artists that could [TS]

  relate to that it's kinda like Pro [TS]

  Wrestling that publishing uh-huh [TS]

  did you know Jason Lutz are you familiar [TS]

  with his work [TS]

  nope but I'll find out J so also great [TS]

  great stuff he drew the Drew a car [TS]

  harvey danger t-shirt for us when we [TS]

  were in the Harvey dangers but he also [TS]

  did a graphic novel about um he did he [TS]

  did a long-running graphic novel called [TS]

  jar of fools and there was a lot of the [TS]

  early stuff took place in a cafe in my [TS]

  cafe so reading those early novels it he [TS]

  was easy is a great draftsperson mi wow [TS]

  these are wonderful and the that is my [TS]

  cafe where I spent every minute of my [TS]

  early twenties and he drew and and the [TS]

  barista the teachers in his in that cafe [TS]

  that the sort of the barista character [TS]

  is a very very good rendition of a vote [TS]

  of a gal that I was really close with [TS]

  and so that was that was one of the that [TS]

  that was a situation where [TS]

  Mike was being drawn in real time in up [TS]

  in and about my actual world and there's [TS]

  a kind of fat you know there's a fantasy [TS]

  magic element to it that that you know [TS]

  that made it a different kind of thing [TS]

  but you know that feeling when you're in [TS]

  your early twenties or like we are we [TS]

  are live we are living inside of the art [TS]

  oh man those moments are so exciting [TS]

  yeah yeah you can get that anytime today [TS]

  but I mean like back then that was a [TS]

  really big deal because somebody you [TS]

  knew was on the radio like you talk [TS]

  about that for a week more flakes of its [TS]

  like your neighborhood was mentioned in [TS]

  the paper is a huge deal [TS]

  ya know a solution that spelled like the [TS]

  fella plural of the musical instrument [TS]

  do rights in the right and then of [TS]

  course Chris where Jimmy Corrigan much I [TS]

  loved his band but it's actually goes by [TS]

  William now what William local road [TS]

  Corrigan oh I've been to the doctor a [TS]

  lot lately i was gonna ask you about [TS]

  that I I as I was sitting here waiting [TS]

  for waiting for you I was sitting and [TS]

  thinking I wonder if John's sick [TS]

  this seems like about the time that you [TS]

  would be sick [TS]

  normal seems like with conditions and [TS]

  and whatnot this would be about the time [TS]

  that you would be getting sick [TS]

  normally I would be getting sick em [TS]

  under these conditions and I am I am [TS]

  sort of sick but the conditions are so [TS]

  extreme that I don't even know if [TS]

  sickness can gain purchase and me I'm [TS]

  listening but I'm i have been going to [TS]

  the doctor [TS]

  uh-huh I've got to various doctors with [TS]

  more to come and sort of i won't say [TS]

  disappointingly but all the doctors seem [TS]

  to agree that i'm in fine health perfect [TS]

  Hale and Hardy really and and I keep [TS]

  wanting to go to a doctor and have them [TS]

  say years I am confirming your [TS]

  suspicions [TS]

  there's something really wrong with you [TS]

  and all these other hacks missed it you [TS]

  hiding in plain sight you're a very sick [TS]

  man John yeah [TS]

  yep but you kind of want that you kind [TS]

  of want somebody to just go it's [TS]

  probably worse than we thought [TS]

  yeah here's why [TS]

  is why it's so hard haha I get it yes [TS]

  you have a terrible terrible undiagnosed [TS]

  condition [TS]

  this explains everything this explains [TS]

  everything yeah i'm always looking for [TS]

  this even if it's terrible news [TS]

  there's a part of me that the the atd a [TS]

  part of my brain is like at last we have [TS]

  some resolution right [TS]

  this explains every yes you have an [TS]

  extra pancreas like it's beyond rare [TS]

  it's it it's unprecedented and once we [TS]

  take out your your 2nd pancreas then you [TS]

  will stop making so much biol here's the [TS]

  thing with a man understand John is that [TS]

  the human body is a lot like the state [TS]

  of Ohio it's a lot there's a lot of [TS]

  people in there [TS]

  you can't just suddenly have an extra [TS]

  pancreas in ohio you gotta go we gotta [TS]

  get that out safely [TS]

  that's right you think that would [TS]

  explain the bile and yet every doctor I [TS]

  go to says well all your readings are [TS]

  normal you don't appear to have any [TS]

  arterial sclerosis or you don't seem to [TS]

  have diverticulitis and you don't have [TS]

  any of the other like a Victorian [TS]

  diseases that used to play your mother's [TS]

  family so I'm not sure maybe you should [TS]

  eat less and exercise and you have a [TS]

  touch of the graph a little bit Roxy [TS]

  have you ever considered meditation i'm [TS]

  actually had a couple of doctors say [TS]

  that to mom so tired of people [TS]

  recommended meditation shut up and just [TS]

  stop it [TS]

  give me some kind of diagnosis where AI [TS]

  don't have to have a pill [TS]

  yeah and bi don't have to go meditate [TS]

  what I want is for you to take something [TS]

  out of me [TS]

  well I wouldn't let me just say like I [TS]

  have a lot of Aloha for meditation it's [TS]

  a great thing I'm just tired of that [TS]

  being the answer [TS]

  yeah because yeah okay I know I know how [TS]

  to meditate I can do that but I want [TS]

  something I want something more [TS]

  conclusive like an extra organized want [TS]

  something where that explains everything [TS]

  that doesn't explain go meditate does [TS]

  not explain everything that's what every [TS]

  doctor has told me for years [TS]

  yeah I keep thinking that they're gonna [TS]

  look at me and they're going to say oh [TS]

  my god one of your lungs is much smaller [TS]

  than the other you have you have it you [TS]

  have tiny long syndrome what [TS]

  normal-sized one-on-one time you John [TS]

  this is extremely unusual do it you ever [TS]

  feel loved more tired than you'd like [TS]

  yeah you sometimes struggle for breath [TS]

  there you are easy gasping you have a [TS]

  tiny tiny lung we need to get we need to [TS]

  fly you immediately to a clinic in Ohio [TS]

  the tiny Lincoln we're at war team of [TS]

  specialized doctors from around the [TS]

  world with with the with pins neces and [TS]

  Boris Karloff beards are going to study [TS]

  you will pay you will pay you for the [TS]

  study and then we'll replace that tiny [TS]

  loan or will not i'm not replace it will [TS]

  inflate it [TS]

  it is a modern miracle is a hit is able [TS]

  to live in pleased at all [TS]

  look at this look at this truck is [TS]

  shocking state defense but it's rocky [TS]

  look see how small his noses [TS]

  it's like trying to smoke pipe tobacco [TS]

  through a children straw so it's sort of [TS]

  a vestigial it's really so frustrating [TS]

  it's so frustrating but just want I just [TS]

  want to I just want some kind of I just [TS]

  want some sort of easy solution what is [TS]

  it what it is is I won't be i want the [TS]

  star trek teleporter her that experience [TS]

  where you turn to return to kind of [TS]

  crystal sparkles and there's a [TS]

  high-pitched ringing and then you re [TS]

  assembled somewhere down the line [TS]

  yeah but through that disassembly and [TS]

  reassembly i'm on way heavy i totally [TS]

  not yours and I totally know what you [TS]

  mean [TS]

  alright so i was reading about how the [TS]

  how the teleporter thing works okay and [TS]

  involves Adams sure and molecules or [TS]

  something and there and so you've got a [TS]

  body and the the body is really about [TS]

  the relationship of all these atoms [TS]

  molecules and what were able to do is [TS]

  shoot that off someplace and then [TS]

  rebuild it in this other area and so if [TS]

  i hear if I'm getting this right if this [TS]

  is what I'm thinking it's like it's [TS]

  restarting your computer you right you [TS]

  just want you want to turn off the [TS]

  computer turn it back on [TS]

  it's going to run through all kinds of [TS]

  checks like your body's got probably got [TS]

  some kind of mechanism for teleported [TS]

  make sure that everything is right there [TS]

  are all kinds of tiny little errors in [TS]

  your genetics that can be fixed with a [TS]

  reboot [TS]

  exactamundo right i mean just teleport [TS]

  me from here to the waiting room where i [TS]

  can write you a check [TS]

  yeah that's what I don't need to go [TS]

  anywhere special teleport me from here [TS]

  to the waiting room and yet at work or [TS]

  in that process the stream of atoms is [TS]

  going through a filter [TS]

  we're all of the all the time toxicities [TS]

  disregards right all of the all of the [TS]

  old tobacco that's still in there all [TS]

  the undigested meat all of the you know [TS]

  all of the genetic errors all of the all [TS]

  of the unactivated Gene Kelly this isn't [TS]

  already a thing me when I was not [TS]

  working on the well-meaning outlet or at [TS]

  least fake thing I mean given all the [TS]

  stuff about you know this stuff about [TS]

  toxicity units bullshit right there all [TS]

  the stuff there's no such really such [TS]

  thing as toxicity if you are if you are [TS]

  leading a normal life and it's sort of [TS]

  like the whole idea of like vitamins [TS]

  it's like well you know if you're eating [TS]

  you don't need vitamins and if you do [TS]

  eat vitamins you're just going to piss [TS]

  them away [TS]

  I mean going to walgreens and buying [TS]

  these things you put in your shoes to [TS]

  draw the toxicity out of your feet like [TS]

  that's not actually a thing women is [TS]

  that actually think you can get these [TS]

  things and here's how it works [TS]

  basically you get these things they look [TS]

  kinda like dr. scholl's and you use it [TS]

  because all you know that all the [TS]

  toxicity goes your feet and so you put [TS]

  these on and it discolors the mix it [TS]

  makes things look Brown know it's sort [TS]

  of like your candling you know ear [TS]

  candling really too was all too well [TS]

  thank you Eric handling that's just ash [TS]

  that's not actually toxicity like [TS]

  there's nothing that is actually [TS]

  happening there [TS]

  everything gold every single gal I data [TS]

  during us certain era mid-nineties it [TS]

  was the Beatles that it was like peak [TS]

  beet juice it came right before tattoos [TS]

  they were all about your candle and they [TS]

  would sit me down and stick candles in [TS]

  my ears and then they would at the end [TS]

  and I would just be like oh my god and [TS]

  then they would pull the candles out and [TS]

  they would always be inconclusive will [TS]

  always be like well we didn't have [TS]

  that's this is weird is that this [TS]

  explains nothing [TS]

  ah right right but you know the the [TS]

  teleporter idea it's that sounds like [TS]

  something it's so appealing [TS]

  yeah I kind of can't believe there isn't [TS]

  already a huge like sham business around [TS]

  that if what if you're disassembling [TS]

  somebody into Adams you should be able [TS]

  then to comb those atoms who with that [TS]

  with an atom comb [TS]

  yeah yeah and then subatomic home right [TS]

  and when you stack them back up its you [TS]

  took all the you took all the hairs out [TS]

  we figure this out [TS]

  little like probably little fibers [TS]

  little flecks of dirt maybe a little bit [TS]

  of marlboro tobacco in there like little [TS]

  things it's kinda like a couch like [TS]

  imagine you have a couch and you know [TS]

  how the couches assembled if you take [TS]

  the couch apart remove all the detritus [TS]

  and give it a good cleaning gud scrub [TS]

  then you just put the couch back [TS]

  together the other day I lost my phone [TS]

  and I was like where I would just had it [TS]

  where the fuck is it then and I realized [TS]

  like it probably fell down behind the [TS]

  couch cushions and I reached down [TS]

  underneath the couch cushions and when i [TS]

  do that i always feel like I'm in the [TS]

  buck rogers movie and I'm putting my [TS]

  hand in the stump I'm and I'm reaching [TS]

  around and I'm thinking I'm gonna get [TS]

  I'm really a bit by the by the monster [TS]

  if I don't of course I'm i become just [TS]

  going to any jet thing is this like you [TS]

  stick your hand in the thing and fear [TS]

  fear is the is the thing you're happy [TS]

  about forgetting forgetting it feels [TS]

  very mind-killer right is that it about [TS]

  well you know in the buck rogers movie [TS]

  if you stick your hand in there you it [TS]

  and you get bitten you die but if you [TS]

  stick it in there and don't get bitten [TS]

  then maybe you become king of the [TS]

  Birdman who and king of the Birdman is [TS]

  kind of always how I imagined i would i [TS]

  would turn out but I stuck my head in [TS]

  the back of the couch and I pulled out a [TS]

  pair of glasses that I have been missing [TS]

  for six years [TS]

  Oh God and they were my favorite pair of [TS]

  glasses and I remember I remember that [TS]

  you know the thing about losing a pair [TS]

  of glasses yet you never remember [TS]

  exactly when it happened [TS]

  you're always trying to trace back like [TS]

  when did i see that pair of glasses last [TS]

  you get you get the era but it's hard [TS]

  it's hard to really get even the week [TS]

  yeah and that but so I remember I [TS]

  remember missing them years ago and [TS]

  being like how can i have lost that of [TS]

  all the pairs that was my that was my [TS]

  fav pair and you remember them because [TS]

  they were they were early long winters [TS]

  classes and uh I found him and you know [TS]

  and there they were vintage glasses to [TS]

  begin with so that kind of that chalky [TS]

  discoloration has started to happen to [TS]

  them where the where the where the [TS]

  plastic is yeah I was like a kind of [TS]

  existential mildew [TS]

  yeah it's just sort of the [TS]

  plastic is just starting to just die [TS]

  from brittle and it was never intended [TS]

  to last this long [TS]

  it was never intended to last this long [TS]

  and here like five or six great years of [TS]

  these glasses were wasted with them just [TS]

  slowly moldering under the couch [TS]

  I can still wear them and they still are [TS]

  great and I'm happy to have them back [TS]

  but like all those years we could have [TS]

  had together they were there [TS]

  tantalizingly just under the seat of my [TS]

  pants [TS]

  it's like it's like it's like a dream it [TS]

  really I mean it was just it was kind of [TS]

  there the whole time he just didn't have [TS]

  access to it didn't have access to it [TS]

  and so then I'm i'm down in that couch [TS]

  i'm pulling out crayons and and popcorn [TS]

  kernels and stuff just like what else is [TS]

  down here dunes straws markers scissors [TS]

  remotes i cannot even first of all I can [TS]

  ask your question okay so there are [TS]

  times when you gotta do the unthinkable [TS]

  which is you have to take the cushions [TS]

  off something important has been lost [TS]

  and you must actually searched the couch [TS]

  is when you sponge your hand into that [TS]

  space is it moist moist are just a [TS]

  little moist I think it might achieve [TS]

  sentence [TS]

  well I you know because probably I mean [TS]

  the thing is if we spill something you [TS]

  know and by that I mean you know get the [TS]

  kids spill something we do everything we [TS]

  can it's a very it was an old vintage [TS]

  couch when i purchased it in about [TS]

  nineteen ninety-six so who knows things [TS]

  probably 40 years old and is the [TS]

  material naugahyde naugahyde on the on [TS]

  the surfaces and then it's you know it's [TS]

  got that you lift it up and it's got [TS]

  that you know all that traction [TS]

  yeah naugahyde backing well yeah it's [TS]

  not behind Lord we take off the cushions [TS]

  the part that the cushions you know rest [TS]

  on the actual canonical couch is a is [TS]

  you know it's a fiber something right oh [TS]

  I know I know I like your glasses i [TS]

  don't think it was never intended to be [TS]

  this long i think it might be coughing [TS]

  something up a little bit you think that [TS]

  it now has it has formed and I a [TS]

  digestive system [TS]

  I don't know it could be a kind of a [TS]

  kind of a living room Sarlacc maybe [TS]

  maybe i don't know i don't know what's [TS]

  happening but I do not like putting my [TS]

  hand in there [TS]

  I've i have dumped entire boxes of [TS]

  baking soda on there to try and try this [TS]

  out and it still is a little moist you [TS]

  know it sounds [TS]

  to me like it has become so one of the [TS]

  first one of the earliest forms of life [TS]

  over is the Venus flytrap [TS]

  oh right the Venus flytrap is a is a [TS]

  great hunter but has no actual as far as [TS]

  we know no intelligence not yet right [TS]

  but it captures its prey just by you [TS]

  know just the prey just kind of flops [TS]

  into the plane and then the thing just [TS]

  closes and digests it over and I think [TS]

  that maybe what happened what's [TS]

  happening in your um what's happening in [TS]

  your County I'm gonna keep an eye on it [TS]

  to keep an eye on it [TS]

  what else did you find other good stuff [TS]

  uh well no i'm nothing was this maybe [TS]

  this may say too much about me but I am [TS]

  I left some parts of the couch [TS]

  unexplored oh I think I i totally agree [TS]

  yeah because I wanted to see you know I [TS]

  wanted they're still to be some mystery [TS]

  there and still something left for me to [TS]

  find that is very much how my own mind [TS]

  works [TS]

  it's one thing to thoroughly clean the [TS]

  top-of-the-range and there's not gonna [TS]

  be any special surprises probably [TS]

  they're right but the couch i mean [TS]

  that's that's special like that there's [TS]

  stuff in there if you really really go [TS]

  through that couch you know my case I [TS]

  could probably find stuff in the [TS]

  previous owners probably matchbooks in [TS]

  there [TS]

  hello ever seen i kinda don't want to [TS]

  know yet [TS]

  am I crazy also to hope that that one of [TS]

  these days I'll be one of the guys that [TS]

  buy a used car and finds the doors for [TS]

  cocaine [TS]

  no I mean why that's that's why [TS]

  everybody thinks that everybody always [TS]

  any sense [TS]

  this is like your duffel bag in the tree [TS]

  problem right duffle bag be driving down [TS]

  the road you're out obviously paying [TS]

  attention to the road but at the same [TS]

  time you count at the corner of the eye [TS]

  you're just looking good there be a [TS]

  seventies gym bag with 127 million [TS]

  dollars in it right that is that's [TS]

  pickup load into a tree [TS]

  well they gotta go somewhere yeah right [TS]

  i mean if they're on the ground [TS]

  everybody picking them up [TS]

  how many times have I opened the [TS]

  newspaper it doesn't happen anymore but [TS]

  it used to happen all the time that [TS]

  that a bale of money would wash up on [TS]

  the shore in Florida or California yeah [TS]

  a bale bale of money a bale of money and [TS]

  then then I could go into the doctor and [TS]

  tell them that I had an extra pancreas [TS]

  and they would they wouldn't be able to [TS]

  argue with me because i had the money [TS]

  oh it's like the guy with the way they [TS]

  both put the fake through the trees [TS]

  right yeah right [TS]

  good just hsq you go in cesky them and [TS]

  say listen let's just kind of tap on [TS]

  your satchel that's obviously full of [TS]

  127 million dollars and you go [TS]

  I think I think you'll find a tiny long [TS]

  and that's right i think i think when [TS]

  you look at me a little bit more [TS]

  carefully [TS]

  you're gonna realize there's something [TS]

  dramatically wrong and I need expensive [TS]

  medical treatment now do you have a [TS]

  telephone [TS]

  yes mr. act draws back a curtain and [TS]

  there's like a like a cardboard box from [TS]

  a washing machine that says teleporter [TS]

  it's this episode of Roderick on the [TS]

  line is brought to you in part by [TS]

  Squarespace start building your website [TS]

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  Squarespace [TS]

  it's beautiful huh there are so many [TS]

  there are so many science-fiction tropes [TS]

  that are not science fiction tropes that [TS]

  should be like the teleporter that [TS]

  actually is it is a medical as a medical [TS]

  purpose right that you come out the [TS]

  other side [TS]

  I mean you would presume that everyone [TS]

  in the star trek universe also was more [TS]

  or less immortal to normal death like [TS]

  they could think that part isn't that [TS]

  part of the stick the stick part of that [TS]

  the concept of the show is that we've [TS]

  taken care of a lot of the things that [TS]

  used to travel people in the 20th [TS]

  century and now we're able to just [TS]

  explore without having to worry about [TS]

  things like are our health for war [TS]

  yeah I guess that's right i guess that [TS]

  is a foundational why I got this from [TS]

  somebody else but that but that's part [TS]

  of what makes this nigga show able to [TS]

  stretch out a little bit so that they [TS]

  then can also talk about things that end [TS]

  up being you know like the twilight zone [TS]

  right where you end up talking about [TS]

  stuff in modern life without being too [TS]

  on the nose about it [TS]

  right right and yet and yet they spend [TS]

  all that time like walking around [TS]

  walking in the halls [TS]

  uh-huh you know like if you really had [TS]

  had mastered disease and conquered war [TS]

  and sent out and we're set out to [TS]

  explore why are you walking up and down [TS]

  the hall so much caring clipboards [TS]

  yeah yeah you know a lot of doors [TS]

  opening and closing yeah you would think [TS]

  that everybody in a comfortable chair [TS]

  and they would be having sex anymore [TS]

  like Wally you just being just being [TS]

  like a rocket chair enjoying the child [TS]

  drinks [TS]

  yeah but how do you stop daddy daddy you [TS]

  did they have to be sugar free drinks [TS]

  that's so that once again the future [TS]

  becomes it doesn't take long to dry it [TS]

  like everything right back down to where [TS]

  we are right now [TS]

  yeah right hmm actually suppose some [TS]

  kind of colostomy bag where all the food [TS]

  goes out but then nobody wants to we [TS]

  want to interact with somebody that's [TS]

  got a colostomy bag up and I don't and I [TS]

  don't mean to be like anti colossal [TS]

  people that's a lot of people and other [TS]

  necessary better dear [TS]

  uh-oh you know this week is just [TS]

  puttering [TS]

  long just sort of putter putter putter [TS]

  putter along yeah you know it's been a [TS]

  it's been pretty it's been a pretty wild [TS]

  ride and as you know and probably as our [TS]

  listeners no i did not survive the [TS]

  primary election you okay talk about [TS]

  this you want some more time I mean [TS]

  obviously we will cover it at great [TS]

  length this is this is the funny thing [TS]

  somebody is it because the internet and [TS]

  also because politics like there were [TS]

  some people that not many but a small [TS]

  couple of people chastised me for them [TS]

  for the kind of like casual way that I [TS]

  and now that I that I conceded the [TS]

  election you know I sent out a tweet was [TS]

  like I didn't win [TS]

  talk to you later and I you know I sent [TS]

  out an email to all of my supporters and [TS]

  will continue to send emails you know of [TS]

  of the thoughts that I've had but [TS]

  obviously anybody that knows me knows [TS]

  that this will we will discuss the the [TS]

  race the campaign the experience books [TS]

  will discuss in a great great lengths we [TS]

  don't need to get it would get it all [TS]

  out right now but I'm I'm happy to talk [TS]

  about the immediate my immediate [TS]

  sensations the immediate moment it's [TS]

  just the the goal that I had to remain [TS]

  candid to practice Michael my normal [TS]

  candor in this realm where candor is the [TS]

  is the rarest of all elements right that [TS]

  was that was one of the that was one of [TS]

  the foundational ideas could you run for [TS]

  office and and continues to speak [TS]

  honestly about yourself and your [TS]

  experience and your [TS]

  perceptions and if so if you could [TS]

  why does no one why is it so hard [TS]

  because that's that that's our first [TS]

  impression of candidates and politicians [TS]

  is that they're just not being honest oh [TS]

  yeah like there must be a reason that [TS]

  everybody speaks in code and what I've [TS]

  discovered is that there is very [TS]

  definitely a reason and partly partly it [TS]

  is that there isn't really that much [TS]

  difference between people and what their [TS]

  goals are and i'm ieaving include like [TS]

  the radical lunatics who believed that [TS]

  the earth was a is only 2,000 years old [TS]

  and who don't think that women should [TS]

  have the right to choose etcetera [TS]

  etcetera etcetera those people and the [TS]

  and the and Bernie Sanders like there [TS]

  are a lot of political gulf between [TS]

  those people but ultimately Bernie [TS]

  Sanders once kraft macaroni and cheese [TS]

  dinner and rick santorum once kraft [TS]

  macaroni and cheese dinner right [TS]

  everybody eats kraft dinner i'm speaking [TS]

  canadian right now because they recently [TS]

  changed the name to KD actually KD right [TS]

  so I i I'm trying to speak canadian and [TS]

  and because Europeans also sort of speak [TS]

  canadian sometimes wonder we might be [TS]

  the only ones that don't call it that [TS]

  they called mac and cheese [TS]

  yeah well we invented it [TS]

  so delicious and easy to prepare all we [TS]

  want but in any case so because because [TS]

  human beings share more commonality then [TS]

  we then we have difference [TS]

  politics is the realm of difference and [TS]

  you you want to you want to exaggerate [TS]

  the small differences between one [TS]

  another in order to make clear [TS]

  delineation between candidates and [TS]

  choices and so [TS]

  what you see in the in the Republican [TS]

  race or in the Democratic race are these [TS]

  people that share ninety-eight percent [TS]

  of their belief system making a huge [TS]

  deal out of the two-percent where [TS]

  they're different and when you speak [TS]

  candidly about yourself all you're doing [TS]

  is offering up opportunities for other [TS]

  people to take those things that you've [TS]

  said and use those use those words to to [TS]

  create different difference and distance [TS]

  between you and people right and so [TS]

  throughout the entire race i found [TS]

  myself even talking to you have feeling [TS]

  suddenly like I needed to keep little [TS]

  areas of what I was actually thinking um [TS]

  sequestered because to talk about how I [TS]

  was feeling and to talk about how I was [TS]

  thinking completely with complete candor [TS]

  would I could tell right away [TS]

  immediately put me at a disadvantage not [TS]

  in the it not in the race right now but [TS]

  because everyone in politics talks about [TS]

  it like it's a really long marathon and [TS]

  saying stuff about what i was thinking [TS]

  right now I was hearing from people [TS]

  every day like this is that the it and [TS]

  understood what they were saying was [TS]

  that that would jeopardize me in the [TS]

  future if I was too candid about what I [TS]

  was experiencing now you you just be [TS]

  producing fuel for people to use against [TS]

  you later ten years from now [TS]

  uh-huh and B and i saw i saw it in [TS]

  practice and also saw it you saw that [TS]

  that the the potential of it and so [TS]

  now like there's so much I want to [TS]

  digest and the way that I digest stuff [TS]

  is as know in large part talking to you [TS]

  about it and but I have some big [TS]

  decisions to make about how much that [TS]

  you know what what I what I think what i [TS]

  believe is that that candor about my [TS]

  life is more important to me than almost [TS]

  anything [TS]

  it protects me from blackmail it it is [TS]

  the process that I that I used to [TS]

  understand the world and that [TS]

  understanding is is is the real [TS]

  important thing to me rather than then [TS]

  my ambition like what you have to give [TS]

  up what you really be fundamentally [TS]

  changing about your whole process of [TS]

  being a person in order to heal to what [TS]

  ends up being necessary [TS]

  yeah but in the experience you know but [TS]

  I got between 17 and twenty percent of [TS]

  the vote and way more people i mean all [TS]

  the people that helps and participated [TS]

  in all of the all of my supporters and [TS]

  all the people who voted for me and all [TS]

  the people around the world that we're [TS]

  supporting my campaign have they've all [TS]

  been wonderful and vocal and supportive [TS]

  and great but the day after I lost the [TS]

  primary I heard from a lot of other [TS]

  people who had never communicated with [TS]

  me before all say great run man you [TS]

  really you really made a good campaign [TS]

  and you stayed true to yourself and you [TS]

  you started a new conversation and all [TS]

  now you force people to talk about these [TS]

  other things it was a really successful [TS]

  campaign you should be really proud [TS]

  I can't wait for you to run again and [TS]

  that that [TS]

  that i'm also getting that from friends [TS]

  and supporters and i'm also getting that [TS]

  I would get that from everybody like [TS]

  well you lost your first one but like go [TS]

  get them tiger get him the next time and [TS]

  so I'm I'm processing that energy from [TS]

  other people in that and and and all [TS]

  kind of holding that up against Mike's [TS]

  my first-hand experience of what it was [TS]

  like and what i want and how how best to [TS]

  serve and I honestly um and I mean I'm I [TS]

  you know Marilyn I never want to let [TS]

  people down [TS]

  uh-huh and been part of the part of what [TS]

  has been hardest about my life is that [TS]

  I've always felt like I'm always letting [TS]

  everybody down and I don't want to let [TS]

  anybody down and that that propels me [TS]

  alone along the road [TS]

  um and I don't want to let I don't want [TS]

  to let people down but running for [TS]

  office was really distasteful I i really [TS]

  did not enjoy it and and it may very [TS]

  well be like childbirth we're in the [TS]

  immediate aftermath you say that was [TS]

  awful but then nine months later you [TS]

  forget and you say oh I really like I [TS]

  think I'd like to have another kid I'd [TS]

  childbirth wasn't that hard you know the [TS]

  the the the hormonal rush kind of papers [TS]

  over the pain but in the but throughout [TS]

  the entire experience like I was I it [TS]

  was just personally very very very [TS]

  difficult and I looked around me and [TS]

  other candidates and it at my mentors [TS]

  and there it there is a personality type [TS]

  that doesn't find it that difficult you [TS]

  know that just as and we discussed this [TS]

  a lot on this program there are people [TS]

  who [TS]

  arm are made to run the four-minute mile [TS]

  and they trained and they work hard but [TS]

  they also have of physiology and and [TS]

  they don't have a tiny lung and they are [TS]

  and they love to run and they become [TS]

  great runners and there are other people [TS]

  that they could train just as hard but [TS]

  they would never [TS]

  they would never be a great runner just [TS]

  because that's not what they were built [TS]

  to do you know they'll never dumped a [TS]

  basketball and there are people who are [TS]

  meant to 24 there are people that thrive [TS]

  in the environment the political [TS]

  environment that we have created that we [TS]

  have decided is that is how we put [TS]

  people forth and how we choose our our [TS]

  officers there are people that in that [TS]

  environment are they've never felt so [TS]

  alive their eyes are shining their coats [TS]

  are glistening they love that they love [TS]

  the process and they love that kind of [TS]

  attention and they love the the tussle [TS]

  of it and and I and I understand why [TS]

  people would think I would be good at it [TS]

  and and and why I what people would [TS]

  think I would enjoy it but in fact it is [TS]

  a kind of a kind of like pure torture [TS]

  for me to be in that under that kind of [TS]

  of like [TS]

  kind of purposeless scrutiny and and [TS]

  exploiting minor differences you know [TS]

  like that's ultimately the thing that I [TS]

  don't I that then I don't see any [TS]

  purpose in minor differences are things [TS]

  that I always try to to to heal to [TS]

  rectify or two or even celebrate [TS]

  celebrate exactly like Aaron this [TS]

  there's here are the minor differences [TS]

  between US isn't this wonderful and in [TS]

  politics it is like I believe that [TS]

  Pantone color 244 is the greatest color [TS]

  and my opponent thinks the pantone color [TS]

  245 it a clearly evil color is a good [TS]

  color and we should end of everyone [TS]

  should rally around my pantone color and [TS]

  it's just like oh my god what a terrible [TS]

  terrible terrible way to do business or [TS]

  to think even and and you can think of [TS]

  you can think of people in your own [TS]

  experience who just love that kind of [TS]

  disagreement and that sort of different [TS]

  shape when you've had that the thing [TS]

  that as you describe this it seems so [TS]

  obvious now that it's crazy but you know [TS]

  it if you're having an argument with [TS]

  your pals not not about whether the [TS]

  beatles were good bad but about like [TS]

  which album you happen to like the best [TS]

  that week maybe not even likewhat is the [TS]

  best album like which one do you like [TS]

  the most like that is a fun conversation [TS]

  to have about minor differences but [TS]

  you're also not constrained and how you [TS]

  decide to argue that and there aren't [TS]

  consequences to what happens if somebody [TS]

  argued better than you like you and but [TS]

  the thing is you get to be who you want [TS]

  to be when you're arguing with your pals [TS]

  like one of the greatest one of the [TS]

  things that makes you who you are that [TS]

  makes you so interesting is that like [TS]

  you you have a very muscular way of of [TS]

  having these kinds of discussions with [TS]

  people but that's not conducive to what [TS]

  you're describing it i get it i guess [TS]

  i'm saying is like there's something I'm [TS]

  just repeating I guess what you said but [TS]

  there's something structurally about the [TS]

  way the this discourse is set up there's [TS]

  something basic to the structure of it [TS]

  that is hobbling to like what makes you [TS]

  who you are in and so I don't know if [TS]

  you agree with that but like to mean [TS]

  watching that and seeing you have to say [TS]

  something [TS]

  you look like though it already feels [TS]

  like poison in your mouth to have to [TS]

  phrase something in a certain way [TS]

  because it doesn't get out the truth of [TS]

  it it doesn't get the completeness of it [TS]

  but it has to be said in this certain [TS]

  poisonous you know dumb down way in [TS]

  order to not be something that's used [TS]

  against you later [TS]

  yeah at and and there are just so many [TS]

  there are so many nuances to it up and [TS]

  to my like personal experience of of [TS]

  running for office and that and the [TS]

  challenge for me right now and talking [TS]

  about it in with all the candor I want [TS]

  to is that I want to be of service and I [TS]

  want to use what I know for the greater [TS]

  good and it seems like running for [TS]

  office is that opportunity or you know [TS]

  it seemed to me that that was an [TS]

  opportunity to do that and now i don't [TS]

  know if that I don't know if I still [TS]

  feel that way but but you could [TS]

  potentially harm your future [TS]

  opportunities to be of use [TS]

  if you're not circumspect about how you [TS]

  talk about how this went yeah absolutely [TS]

  and how you feel about it and and also [TS]

  like you know there are because I've [TS]

  entered this new community of people [TS]

  wear their expectations in their [TS]

  language is so so different you know the [TS]

  idea that you would [TS]

  idea that you would [TS]

  run for office which which was you know [TS]

  I remember saying to you I think insane [TS]

  to my mom that early on and then halfway [TS]

  through like well I've had harder six [TS]

  months than this you know I've had [TS]

  harder three months the mist I've spent [TS]

  three months your mom your mom said you [TS]

  had worse months and you've had worse [TS]

  months and then there was a certain [TS]

  moment in the run-up to the primary [TS]

  where I could no longer say that I had a [TS]

  worse month than this man and you know [TS]

  and there were some days which were like [TS]

  in the running force for like worst day [TS]

  and you know I been to jail I've been to [TS]

  a i have shivered in the cold hungry and [TS]

  tired and alone [TS]

  uh-huh i have been bitten by dogs and [TS]

  have a fought wild boar and that there [TS]

  was a day in the campaign where I just [TS]

  had to wake up and go talk to like six [TS]

  or seven different executive boards of [TS]

  various unions and activist [TS]

  organizations and it was worse than [TS]

  fighting bore and so and yet there are [TS]

  tons of people who have said to me with [TS]

  big chest shower grins you know oh well [TS]

  you always lose your first campaign and [TS]

  to think like oh I see you just do this [TS]

  this was the sporting one this was the [TS]

  one that I just like that was just for [TS]

  just to figure it out the next one is [TS]

  going to be the real time or the time [TS]

  after that I it work it requires this is [TS]

  what I don't know it requires either a [TS]

  an emotional temperament that is just [TS]

  like being able to dunk a basketball [TS]

  either you have it or you don't [TS]

  and you know to to sit in a in a in a [TS]

  basement of a community center arguing [TS]

  with your opponent over it ultimately [TS]

  like insignificant differences in [TS]

  opinion and then when you're done have [TS]

  the energy to race across town in your [TS]

  car to stand in front of a supermarket [TS]

  and hand out buttons to people who are [TS]

  not interested in you and do all of it [TS]

  with relish that is it that's it that is [TS]

  a that is a type and you know and i am [TS]

  the type that sits and thinks of that [TS]

  then looks at maps in a book about [TS]

  Napoleon and thinks about what that must [TS]

  have meant to the people that were [TS]

  selling grain and it and it feels like [TS]

  you want that kind of person to run for [TS]

  office sometimes but maybe maybe they're [TS]

  the that aperture just is too small or [TS]

  too or the pressure in the hose is too [TS]

  great but I don't want I don't want to [TS]

  because this is such a fraud moment it's [TS]

  the the week I lost my first election i [TS]

  also know that maybe I maybe I will in [TS]

  six months be like you know what it [TS]

  wasn't that hard [TS]

  it was actually great and I don't want [TS]

  to say because because we're living in a [TS]

  world where everything you and I say is [TS]

  recorded and broadcast this would this [TS]

  will all be something I'll have to [TS]

  reckon with in a year over and somebody [TS]

  will say well didn't you say in the week [TS]

  after the the primary that you blah blah [TS]

  blah you decided that this was not your [TS]

  nature and you would never want to do it [TS]

  again right so now you're running again [TS]

  well which is it flip-flopper [TS]

  yeah and I don't want to live in a world [TS]

  where where I'm where I'm scrutinized in [TS]

  that way not because I'm afraid to be [TS]

  scrutinized but because [TS]

  the book because my fundamental premise [TS]

  is that yes i can say that the week [TS]

  after I lost an election and a year [TS]

  later run for office and that and that [TS]

  contradiction is normal and great and [TS]

  one violent ends up getting inside your [TS]

  own head in some ways right because i [TS]

  mean it you know it's easy to take a [TS]

  couple giant steps back and go well no I [TS]

  you know it is not easy it's simple it's [TS]

  simple to say hey wait a minute i'm not [TS]

  gonna tear myself up over this i'm going [TS]

  to keep being whoever I want to be but [TS]

  then there's gonna still be the [TS]

  intrusive thoughts of like yeah but [TS]

  how's that gonna be processed and [TS]

  presented and repackaged and productize [TS]

  by other people and then now it but you [TS]

  know I'm saying like part of it is it's [TS]

  like what's the phrase you're looking [TS]

  for is like it's in your head like you [TS]

  see you getting you getting psyched out [TS]

  in some ways i was in order to in order [TS]

  to in order to do like I've never had [TS]

  any doubt in my mind that you'd be great [TS]

  at the job that you're trying to get the [TS]

  the concern I think anybody could have [TS]

  including you is like how you get that [TS]

  job which seems in some ways that it's [TS]

  not a natural fit for for how you work [TS]

  or how you live it isn't because like [TS]

  you're like somebody that someone's [TS]

  gonna get dirt on its that you it's just [TS]

  that you end up having to fight with [TS]

  both hands tied behind your back in some [TS]

  ways and you can't you can't do what [TS]

  you're best at which is being expressive [TS]

  about how you feel as a person in the [TS]

  world [TS]

  yeah well so you know we were worried [TS]

  you and I about all the things from [TS]

  Roderick on the line that might come out [TS]

  in a campaign that a that my opponent [TS]

  would say that i had endorsed Stalin or [TS]

  especially taken out of context yeah or [TS]

  that i had a that I had pillows made of [TS]

  owls [TS]

  alright alright even in context that's [TS]

  kind of weird even in context it's a [TS]

  little weird but the only one thing [TS]

  really came out from Roderick on the [TS]

  line and it was obviously something that [TS]

  had you know that that I don't think [TS]

  that anybody I was running against [TS]

  dedicated interns to listen to the [TS]

  podcast i think that you know I I don't [TS]

  remember how long ago was but there was [TS]

  there have been a few episodes where you [TS]

  know where I really rankled people and [TS]

  the the the biggest one was the one [TS]

  where i was talking about gender pay [TS]

  equity and talking about it pretty [TS]

  flippantly and in a voice of sort of you [TS]

  know i mean i was talking I was [TS]

  describing a conversation I was having [TS]

  with a middle-class white lady about her [TS]

  pay and it was it was a it was an [TS]

  episode that immediately generated a big [TS]

  response from people from our [TS]

  listenership and made a lot of people [TS]

  mad and I got really schooled at the [TS]

  time by our listeners and a lot of [TS]

  people that you know that listen to the [TS]

  program and agreed to disagree with us [TS]

  because they like the tenor of our [TS]

  conversation and this was an example of [TS]

  a thing where i had crossed a line and [TS]

  was talking about gender pay equity [TS]

  which was a thing that a lot of people [TS]

  were educated on and and passionate [TS]

  about and I was just talking about it in [TS]

  a tone of voice that was sort of full of [TS]

  privilege and full of a just lack of [TS]

  complete understanding and we got a lot [TS]

  of flack for it at the time and I was [TS]

  surprised that i was surprised not not [TS]

  that the response was what it was [TS]

  because I deserved that response but [TS]

  that we lost people in that that after a [TS]

  hundred-plus episodes of the show where [TS]

  your and my minds are on display that [TS]

  even in a situation like that where i [TS]

  was wrong i was just straight-up wrong [TS]

  I wasn't i didn't understand that issue [TS]

  and was not speaking about i was [TS]

  speaking from a place of ignorance in a [TS]

  voice of confidence that people couldn't [TS]

  forgive it because we had touched on a [TS]

  nerve touched on a topic that it was [TS]

  like as a bridge too far for people that [TS]

  it was a litmus test for whether or not [TS]

  we were good people whether or not I was [TS]

  a good person and so the education I got [TS]

  in that moment or in that in that week [TS]

  or so from people writing me thoughtful [TS]

  people friendly friends who wrote me and [TS]

  said hey you're wrong on this and here's [TS]

  why [TS]

  and here's the evidence and here's the [TS]

  details i took that to heart and [TS]

  understood that I was wrong and you know [TS]

  it isn't it isn't there wasn't a time [TS]

  where you and I were talking later i had [TS]

  the opportunity to say like that episode [TS]

  2 episodes ago I really have changed my [TS]

  tune and probably should but but it it [TS]

  was a it was a it was an education and [TS]

  then and then the other component of it [TS]

  was that there were all those people who [TS]

  didn't reach out to me and say here's [TS]

  where you're wrong but who just went on [TS]

  the internet that John Roderick is bad [TS]

  person and you know there's still that [TS]

  there's one of our reviews on itunes [TS]

  where some listeners like I used to like [TS]

  this program but John Roderick denies [TS]

  that there that women i have a hard time [TS]

  in life or something like that and now I [TS]

  can't listen to the program and was just [TS]

  like what are you talking about like [TS]

  fuck you like I I was wrong and and the [TS]

  willingness of people to give me or to [TS]

  give anyone the opportunity to learn and [TS]

  change their minds [TS]

  um is the that's the ultimate gift we [TS]

  can give one another and to have [TS]

  somebody fail a test and then deny them [TS]

  their place at the table or to just say [TS]

  like I can't abide this person anymore [TS]

  because they were wrong one time is the [TS]

  is kind of the modern disease but [TS]

  somebody from our world somebody who had [TS]

  listened to the program and who was mad [TS]

  or who was disappointed or who had who [TS]

  felt like I was wrong [TS]

  excerpted that conversation where I said [TS]

  where I talking to my middle-class white [TS]

  female friend where I said I mean do you [TS]

  make 75 cents on the dollar at your job [TS]

  too [TS]

  does anybody you know make 75 cents on [TS]

  the dollar at their jobs and there [TS]

  wasn't it for a moment [TS]

  uh like I wasn't questioning what [TS]

  they're there were women in the world [TS]

  who were making significantly less than [TS]

  their male counterparts but just it was [TS]

  a white privilege moment we're in my [TS]

  world I i was having a hard time [TS]

  understanding how how it worked and I [TS]

  didn't see it and then that and then I [TS]

  learned you know and I made I made [TS]

  gender pay equity an issue in my [TS]

  campaign I've talked about it as often [TS]

  as I could and was one of the few people [TS]

  running for office that that talked [TS]

  about it a lot and in and in part [TS]

  because of that experience of talking [TS]

  about on this program and getting that [TS]

  amount of and getting the education I [TS]

  did from people that were that were [TS]

  genuinely trying to educate me but all [TS]

  of a sudden on facebook there was an [TS]

  egg's a an mp3 an excerpt of me on this [TS]

  show that was you know a minute or two [TS]

  long talking about gender pay equity in [TS]

  this smug voice and it got passed around [TS]

  and it didn't get passed around by tim [TS]

  burgess by my conservative archenemy [TS]

  that was out to destroy my credibility [TS]

  with the left it got passed around by by [TS]

  the left and ultimately you know [TS]

  probably it was it was exempted [TS]

  and made available initially by somebody [TS]

  that i would probably consider a friend [TS]

  or would have considered a friend and it [TS]

  was shared most widely and commented on [TS]

  most virulent Lee by leftists by the [TS]

  people i would imagine where Mike my [TS]

  core constituency and there was not in [TS]

  all that conversation any a temperature [TS]

  or offer of opportunity for me to [TS]

  explain and and honestly like I couldn't [TS]

  say well taken out of context what I was [TS]

  really talking about was I mean I if I [TS]

  were a better politician I probably [TS]

  could have said i was talking about [TS]

  white privilege you're taking it out of [TS]

  context it was all ironic or whatever [TS]

  but it wasn't they were you know it they [TS]

  were right to find that excerpt and that [TS]

  was and if I hadn't learned that would [TS]

  you know that would be it would be right [TS]

  to call attention to it and say well [TS]

  this guy doesn't this guy is [TS]

  misrepresented himself the years how [TS]

  here's what he really thinks and in the [TS]

  context of this program of me talking [TS]

  about Stalin and and often even being [TS]

  wrong about the Beatles being wrong [TS]

  about gender pay equity was one of 1000 [TS]

  times I've been wrong on this program [TS]

  but it was in the context of running for [TS]

  office an instance where I was wrong [TS]

  about a thing that I was wrong about a [TS]

  thing that is really you really used in [TS]

  politics as a way of determining whether [TS]

  somebody is out on the right side or not [TS]

  and whether or not somebody is on our [TS]

  side or secretly on the wrong side and [TS]

  and that was it that was a huge learning [TS]

  experience for me in [TS]

  in running for office which was I heard [TS]

  over and over again from people that [TS]

  what you say on the campaign trail [TS]

  almost everybody is too cynical to [TS]

  believe what gets said on the campaign [TS]

  trail even you know even political [TS]

  novices know that are presumed that [TS]

  candidates are lying right and so if you [TS]

  presume that all candidates are lying [TS]

  all the time but all you're getting from [TS]

  them is what they say on the campaign [TS]

  trail then what the where the real [TS]

  information must be hiding is in their [TS]

  voting record their personal record [TS]

  their paper trail and that's why we [TS]

  personalize campaign so much because [TS]

  every everybody stands up and says I [TS]

  wanna make the world a better place and [TS]

  I want to chicken in every pot and then [TS]

  the reporters and the world says well [TS]

  what about this time you cheated on your [TS]

  taxes or what about this time that you [TS]

  you had a undocumented worker [TS]

  uh-huh or what about this time on a [TS]

  podcast you said you weren't in favor of [TS]

  gender pay equity and then you are then [TS]

  you are exposed or the presumably or the [TS]

  the premise of that is now we have [TS]

  exposed this person for who they really [TS]

  are and a lot of times a politician is [TS]

  destroyed by that revelation by the by [TS]

  the fact that they that their [TS]

  housekeeper is an undocumented worker or [TS]

  you know and sometimes they're not i [TS]

  mean the revelation that george bush was [TS]

  a draft-dodger or you know got it [TS]

  gotta a plum job in the air force [TS]

  reserve and then didn't even fulfill his [TS]

  commitment that didn't destroy his [TS]

  political career but isn't isn't it sort [TS]

  of like it's at least a couple different [TS]

  things or on the one hand there's [TS]

  there's at least two or three things to [TS]

  this one is like hey well here's [TS]

  something somebody said that's really [TS]

  embarrassing whether or not it has [TS]

  potentially embarrassing whether or not [TS]

  it actually has an impact which in this [TS]

  case it does on on what they seem to be [TS]

  saying [TS]

  then there's the deeper level of like [TS]

  yeah that was really dumb thing to say [TS]

  and it is at odds with what that person [TS]

  thinks right i mean one thing to have [TS]

  you like wearing a lampshade on your [TS]

  head in you know 1988 or something but [TS]

  you know in this case that seems like an [TS]

  important thing and then there's the [TS]

  third part which is and they don't want [TS]

  you to know about it and it seems like [TS]

  that that combination of things is is [TS]

  quite understandably something that [TS]

  people find very attractive if they're [TS]

  in the right state of mind certainly we [TS]

  find that very attractive and other [TS]

  people when we when we see where we rush [TS]

  that put that poorly but when we find [TS]

  out that somebody we disagree with [TS]

  politically or somebody who we think is [TS]

  a scoundrel has obviously done something [TS]

  that's completely at odds and hearts [TS]

  their credibility like when that happens [TS]

  at Donald Trump most of us chair [TS]

  yeah right and this is an example of a [TS]

  thing where I you know I was this isn't [TS]

  like me wearing a lampshade or be [TS]

  talking about Hitler this is me talking [TS]

  about a very real political issue that [TS]

  is on the table right now and something [TS]

  we should all be talking about and we [TS]

  should and gender pay equity is a thing [TS]

  it's like a very visible example of how [TS]

  we haven't we are we have our our goal [TS]

  of of equity and in in our culture is [TS]

  unmet and it's something we can really [TS]

  do stuff about and in Seattle right now [TS]

  we can do stuff about like the city of [TS]

  seattle can set an example in the city [TS]

  of seattle can require the companies [TS]

  that doing business with companies doing [TS]

  business here uh pay their workers [TS]

  equally it's a it's a it's a political [TS]

  uh it's it's an actual political [TS]

  difference between people and and here [TS]

  was me on tape saying saying it getting [TS]

  it wrong and there isn't an opportunity [TS]

  I could have stayed up 10 nights in a [TS]

  row and went on every facebook page that [TS]

  it got sent around two and join the [TS]

  conversation and said wait I you know [TS]

  this is [TS]

  this is a place where i was i got this [TS]

  wrong and and I learned from it already [TS]

  before i even thought about running for [TS]

  office i had learned that I was wrong [TS]

  and I changed my might take on it [TS]

  um and you know if I were a better [TS]

  politician maybe that's what I would [TS]

  have done spending stayed up all night [TS]

  trying to try to put out those little [TS]

  fire you [TS]

  um but but that you know that isn't that [TS]

  as an example and it's a thing of its a [TS]

  thing when I when I declared I was [TS]

  running you know the the first thing [TS]

  everybody was worried about was will you [TS]

  know didn't you punch a guy in the nose [TS]

  how's that going to play you know in a [TS]

  citywide election I was like well if it [TS]

  comes up you know it comes up and now [TS]

  I'll I'll I'll deal with it when it [TS]

  comes up and then it was and no no one [TS]

  in the no.1 running those initial [TS]

  questions by me said well what about [TS]

  that what about that gender pay equity [TS]

  stuff that you were wrong about you know [TS]

  and actually the the punk-rock article [TS]

  came back to haunt me over and over [TS]

  again because they're just people that [TS]

  are never there just never gonna let [TS]

  that rest and so all those are instances [TS]

  where my public wrongness which is a [TS]

  thing that I'm happy to embrace [TS]

  personally and just in general like yeah [TS]

  I'm wrong all the time I say a lot of [TS]

  stuff and I think out loud and i'm wrong [TS]

  and sometimes I is circle back to it and [TS]

  sometimes I don't and sometimes I i may [TS]

  a culpa and sometimes I don't [TS]

  yeah so I don't know how to proceed [TS]

  well it sounds like you well I mean yeah [TS]

  it'sit's your gig but I mean like it [TS]

  sounds to me like there's nothing you [TS]

  have to decide right now [TS]

  as long as its I guess what you can't do [TS]

  or shouldn't do probably have too many [TS]

  events like this where you were you [TS]

  narrate your process out loud it sounds [TS]

  like something that's something you [TS]

  probably want to limit as far as a the [TS]

  next few weeks where is it [TS]

  I mean that's the thing i I'm now laying [TS]

  the groundwork for what my life is going [TS]

  to look like going forward and I [TS]

  wouldn't have thought uh you know it [TS]

  like personal integrity looks like like [TS]

  one kind of thing you you either have it [TS]

  or you don't and a lot of people in the [TS]

  race including people i was running [TS]

  against indicated that they would say [TS]

  and do kind of anything to get elected [TS]

  and I don't mean like saying do anything [TS]

  to get elected like put somebody in a in [TS]

  a put a drunk guy in his car and yes I [TS]

  eventually saw what you were talking [TS]

  about your house of cards right but i [TS]

  did eventually see what you're talking [TS]

  about one of your opponent's was [TS]

  actually go quite good at some very [TS]

  tight provocative statements that would [TS]

  just kind of leave a turn on somebody's [TS]

  long [TS]

  yeah and-and-and very provocative and [TS]

  then say a and then you know kind of [TS]

  take you aside behind the curtain net at [TS]

  the next event and be like hey man you [TS]

  know sorry about that i just did you [TS]

  know you know you know I've got to go [TS]

  after you and and it's all in the game [TS]

  or whatever hope I you know hope I can [TS]

  win your support or whatever and just [TS]

  like it's all very skeezy or can be and [TS]

  that's not me and I and I can't live [TS]

  that way but but you know sitting here [TS]

  right now and and just you can just hear [TS]

  the hesitancy the reluctance in my voice [TS]

  to to come clean and that too feels like [TS]

  an infection like a kind of a like kind [TS]

  of meningitis [TS]

  and I have to have to process it [TS]

  I have to process what I want and what I [TS]

  want to do next and that's not a thing [TS]

  that i am super like talented at either [TS]

  or but that's not i don't i don't [TS]

  usually sit here and say like all right [TS]

  here's the next five years of my life [TS]

  and here's what i want and so here's [TS]

  what I've got to say now [TS]

  like that's just that's it's almost like [TS]

  you're on parole when you're not you're [TS]

  not in the midst of that that [TS]

  all-encompassing thing that was like [TS]

  finding a bore but you're also not [TS]

  completely free of that particular thing [TS]

  because he's like he's as you say you [TS]

  start to think about which what might [TS]

  happen in the future [TS]

  and-and-and-and when we started the [TS]

  campaign the idea that we were going to [TS]

  reform the political process and that [TS]

  one candidate running from outside the [TS]

  system could be an agent of reform that [TS]

  swept all the cobwebs out of the corners [TS]

  and and and made the political process [TS]

  new and exciting and newly honest and [TS]

  all you had to do was run an honest [TS]

  campaign and that honesty would be like [TS]

  a a like a teleportation machine that we [TS]

  organize the atoms and took the disease [TS]

  out his life if you feel like if you're [TS]

  saying things you know are true sunlight [TS]

  does nothing but make that clearer right [TS]

  and in fact what I discovered was that [TS]

  it that the that the process of running [TS]

  for office involves so many [TS]

  organizations all of whom have no [TS]

  interest in reform ultimately and I'm [TS]

  talking about not just the you know not [TS]

  just the chamber of commerce but the [TS]

  socialist party like I was endorsed by [TS]

  neither the Seattle Times nor the [TS]

  stranger i was endorsed by neither the [TS]

  Chamber of Commerce nor the Socialists I [TS]

  was endorsed by you know neither the [TS]

  business community nor the union [TS]

  and though when we think about those [TS]

  groups as oppositional right the the the [TS]

  unions and the bosses and think we [TS]

  should be able to at least agree on you [TS]

  know and taking the side [TS]

  yeah the left paper and the right paper [TS]

  the the Communist Party and the [TS]

  conservative Democrats and nobody none [TS]

  of those groups chose me and they all [TS]

  chose one or the other guy and [TS]

  ultimately the the reason that I heard [TS]

  over and over again was that predictable [TS]

  ility is the currency of the realm and [TS]

  nobody wants a candidate that isn't [TS]

  gonna that is the predictable and no one [TS]

  wants a candidate where they don't know [TS]

  exactly how he's going to vote on every [TS]

  issue and they would rather have a guy [TS]

  that they that they know is going to [TS]

  vote against them then somebody who [TS]

  doesn't that they somebody that they [TS]

  can't predict and so ultimately like [TS]

  being being honest and being true and [TS]

  being yourself all those political [TS]

  agents the one that the the commonality [TS]

  is that none of them want something new [TS]

  they their power rests on their ability [TS]

  to work within this this broken a [TS]

  crystal system and so to reform and what [TS]

  it takes to reform the Union process of [TS]

  picking a candidate and what it takes to [TS]

  reform the Chamber of Commerce process [TS]

  of of picking a candidate with those two [TS]

  those two groups think of themselves as [TS]

  polar opposites and think of themselves [TS]

  as you know as as having completely [TS]

  different goals in mind but from my [TS]

  perspective they functioned up almost [TS]

  exactly the same which was I went and [TS]

  sat down in front of them and answer [TS]

  their questions and ultimately they felt [TS]

  like not that I was not intelligent not [TS]

  that I was not [TS]

  capable not that I was not interesting [TS]

  not that I was not compelling but that I [TS]

  was not predictable and and so going [TS]

  into the primary election i had the [TS]

  support of no one except for the you [TS]

  know the 20,000 people that voted for me [TS]

  who as we've talked about before you [TS]

  know the long winter sell 20,000 records [TS]

  and their 20,000 people listen to our [TS]

  podcast and 20,000 people voted for me [TS]

  it's the 20,000 person problem Wow [TS]

  but but but uh why haha but that that's [TS]

  a that's a mind bomb [TS]

  yeah right Wow like that you know long [TS]

  winters 45,000 record sold or whatever [TS]

  but I have a and we have not talked much [TS]

  about the statistical fish oh you're [TS]

  really really close but wow wow so so [TS]

  that is the thing where where there is [TS]

  no way to reform that process there's no [TS]

  single way to reform it because if you [TS]

  work if you were a renegade candidate if [TS]

  you were Ross Perot or if you had [TS]

  $1000000 and could just go right to the [TS]

  voters and you didn't have to deal with [TS]

  any of those the any of that political [TS]

  machine they at they even with a million [TS]

  dollars even if you went even if you [TS]

  bought every TV advertisement on Seattle [TS]

  TV and just went just went right to the [TS]

  voters that political machine the [TS]

  newspapers the the Democrats you know [TS]

  they still could defeat you I didn't [TS]

  have enough fame and name recognition to [TS]

  overcome it is another thing in the [TS]

  midst of this that I can't get my mind [TS]

  around which is like for everything that [TS]

  you're describing about getting this job [TS]

  i'm thinking about any variety of dozens [TS]

  of other jobs that one would try to get [TS]

  and you know I I'm not not to put too [TS]

  fine a point on it but but you know in [TS]

  most cases it's their people are looking [TS]

  for somebody who can get along with the [TS]

  team and they're looking for somebody [TS]

  who can accept the system that's in [TS]

  place [TS]

  most managers managers let's just say [TS]

  don't want to hire somebody who wants to [TS]

  come in and revolutionize the company [TS]

  especially if they've never worked there [TS]

  before and so in this case i mean i [TS]

  think you you're facing also a little [TS]

  bit of anna karenina problem where it's [TS]

  one thing to say like we're going to fix [TS]

  the system but like they're each which [TS]

  part of that system would need to be [TS]

  free as you said would have to be [TS]

  changed in such a radically different [TS]

  way that is at odds with how they've [TS]

  always done it so but you know that's [TS]

  the thing is that the the system is how [TS]

  it is because that's how it operates [TS]

  that's you know and so it's almost like [TS]

  you would have to accept that [TS]

  well my job is to be electable like if [TS]

  I'm not electable I won't get the job [TS]

  you know it's a really can't get beyond [TS]

  that as I think the thing about it is [TS]

  that you know what the way that we [TS]

  choose somebody to be on the seattle [TS]

  city council or the way that a lot of [TS]

  people choose and certainly the way all [TS]

  these systems choose is they say what's [TS]

  your management experience [TS]

  can you show us instances where you have [TS]

  managed a big operation and you know [TS]

  like give us your management cv and [TS]

  that's true in business too and [TS]

  ultimately what i was saying over and [TS]

  over throughout the campaign is it is a [TS]

  mistake to choose managers for this job [TS]

  because being on the seattle city [TS]

  council is not a management job you're [TS]

  not managing anybody you're sitting on a [TS]

  you're sitting on a panel of nine [TS]

  thoughtful people trying to make sense [TS]

  of the law and if you put managers there [TS]

  over and over what you're going to get [TS]

  is people that one are trying to manage [TS]

  the other city councilman and manage [TS]

  their manage the details and manage [TS]

  their reputations and manage the the [TS]

  manage the [TS]

  press like it's the lieutenant-colonel [TS]

  problem all over again like it isn't a [TS]

  management job it is a it's a very [TS]

  different kind of job that's that's [TS]

  being on a panel and we see this in [TS]

  business to wear so often the hiring [TS]

  process is not about who's going to get [TS]

  along with my team but Rick but rather [TS]

  like who's got the who's got the [TS]

  management experience to handle this but [TS]

  this stuff this stuff job and you know [TS]

  and all those google questions of like [TS]

  how many angels can dance on the head of [TS]

  a pin [TS]

  you have one minute to answer go you [TS]

  know it makes the interviewer feel smart [TS]

  but in the end they're all just [TS]

  Kobayashi Maru it's just it's just to [TS]

  see how you respond it's not like I [TS]

  explain to my daughter Kobayashi Maru it [TS]

  seems like it's a test of leadership but [TS]

  it's really a test of character they [TS]

  just want to see how you respond [TS]

  yeah at but so often like the ability to [TS]

  answer a Kobayashi Maru question is not [TS]

  really salient to being a good member of [TS]

  a team on a UH that's developing and [TS]

  this have to do with selling ads on [TS]

  websites that's what you guys do [TS]

  yeah right i mean you know and do you [TS]

  really want a bunch of people who have [TS]

  trained to answer these like these [TS]

  character questions and ultimately it's [TS]

  like Kobayashi Maru stuff i would love [TS]

  if that was how we elected somebody to [TS]

  City Council that'd be great but but you [TS]

  know so much of the process of [TS]

  interviewing for that job is showing [TS]

  that you have you have a detailed [TS]

  knowledge of the jobs of the people who [TS]

  would be executing the job and and you [TS]

  don't really need that to be a good city [TS]

  councilperson in fact that makes it [TS]

  difficult to be a good city [TS]

  councilperson if you're if you're coming [TS]

  from a place of like I used to implement [TS]

  this policy and now I want to make this [TS]

  part [TS]

  see like well knowing how to implement [TS]

  it in knowing how to make it are [TS]

  radically different skills but knowing [TS]

  how to implement it is the only way we [TS]

  have to judge the only other because [TS]

  otherwise we would have to use our [TS]

  imaginations [TS]

  that's because like the s80 it's like [TS]

  it's there's a wee-wee is a test that we [TS]

  understand and there seems to be some [TS]

  relationship between how people will do [TS]

  how well people do in the SATA and how [TS]

  well they do in college that it's we [TS]

  understand it's a crapshoot but it's our [TS]

  best crapshoot [TS]

  yeah right our best corruption and and [TS]

  that best crap shoot is like the last [TS]

  thing the s80 once is to start measuring [TS]

  people's imagination [TS]

  the last thing that Harvard once you [TS]

  know that they want you to be able to [TS]

  write a good essay question but and if [TS]

  you're really really a genius and can do [TS]

  and are going to win the Fields Medal [TS]

  yeah they want to try and get ahold of [TS]

  you and they'll and they'll cultivate [TS]

  you but but processes need to be [TS]

  systematized and you can't have a [TS]

  process that is that's that use that [TS]

  that rates imagination and so and there [TS]

  are a lot of jobs that require [TS]

  imagination and we just hope we find [TS]

  somebody we hope that somebody that [TS]

  jumps through these hoops also has [TS]

  imagination if they don't that's fine at [TS]

  least they jump through the hoops and we [TS]

  can cover our butts [TS]

  the last thing we want is some is to you [TS]

  know is to hire somebody with [TS]

  imagination and then discover that that [TS]

  they shit themselves and and have to [TS]

  explain why we chose them so I you know [TS]

  like going forward I need to figure out [TS]

  what i want to do with my life and how I [TS]

  can help and be and you know and how I [TS]

  can be best [TS]

  how I most useful and just like that's [TS]

  been your enduring question for like a [TS]

  few years now [TS]

  yeah and and hasn't gone away and my [TS]

  most useful as an elected official [TS]

  i I don't know how I don't know how to [TS]

  make it through that process and wrote [TS]

  and retain what I think is most useful [TS]

  about myself and that's the that's the [TS]

  Kobayashi Maru of this are you a [TS]

  potentially open to the idea that this [TS]

  just might be the thing for you [TS]

  I'm going very very very open to it [TS]

  I just don't want to like like the what [TS]

  this whole conversation has been about [TS]

  is I don't know how I'm gonna feel nine [TS]

  months from now and I don't want to have [TS]

  30 hours of you and me saying um there's [TS]

  a certain type of person that is that [TS]

  could ever get elected to public office [TS]

  and it's a and there's a reason that we [TS]

  don't trust them once they are elected [TS]

  but the job of elected official is a [TS]

  kind of is a kind of poly Archie and [TS]

  what we really should be doing is is [TS]

  figuring out where power really lies and [TS]

  trying to affect the way that power and [TS]

  the trying to affect the activation of [TS]

  that power closer to the source and the [TS]

  you know the idea of the idea of [TS]

  participatory democracy and [TS]

  representative democracy it's also a [TS]

  thought technology and we elect people [TS]

  and send them up to these bodies to [TS]

  perform this task and is that the best [TS]

  way to get things done or is that a has [TS]

  that always been and is that [TS]

  increasingly just a just a performance [TS]

  that that that that squanders resources [TS]

  and distracts people from [TS]

  where things are really happening and it [TS]

  can laws be made more efficiently and [TS]

  better get through a different practice [TS]

  and maybe so I mean it's so hard to [TS]

  think about our democratic institutions [TS]

  and divorce them from our mythology and [TS]

  divorce them from our desire to be [TS]

  democratic and say wait we are the [TS]

  desire to be Democratic is still great [TS]

  and we need to we need to chase it and [TS]

  we need to find and perfect what that [TS]

  means to be a to be Democratic rather [TS]

  than autocratic or Oleg arcing but is [TS]

  this method where we sent where we were [TS]

  where we put people into a into a [TS]

  process where they're running for office [TS]

  and then we elect them and we send them [TS]

  up to a legislative body and they bicker [TS]

  with each other and and passed laws by [TS]

  majority is that necessary is that [TS]

  democratic or is that a holdover from a [TS]

  time when we didn't have instantaneous [TS]

  communication is a holdover from a time [TS]

  when we didn't trust everyone to vote [TS]

  and are we still practicing a form of [TS]

  democracy that was best suited for a [TS]

  time when news traveled by horse cart [TS]

  and and we all gathered in the Town Hall [TS]

  to have our voices heard and you know [TS]

  honestly I don't know I I i think that [TS]

  I think that we probably waste more [TS]

  energy and more intellectual capital and [TS]

  more time running our government the way [TS]

  we do but i definitely don't want to [TS]

  fall into this into some silicon valley [TS]

  trap of like let's let's find a [TS]

  disruptive way of doing government you [TS]

  know let's def government by Facebook or [TS]

  whatever you know that's that just [TS]

  sounds awful so right I've been thinking [TS]

  about that my whole life how how do you [TS]

  have participatory democracy how do you [TS]

  have actual direct democracy without [TS]

  without succumbing to rule by mob right [TS]

  and and do these systems protect us [TS]

  does all of this all of this process is [TS]

  it all to protect us against our worst [TS]

  nature's I don't know it's it's it's um [TS]

  speaking as someone who just lost his [TS]

  first election it's very hard to to [TS]

  separate the personal from the political [TS]

  right now not so fresh I mean I hope you [TS]

  have some time to rest a little bit to [TS]

  not have to be places and say things [TS]

  well you know of course both of my [TS]

  opponents now I've reached out to me and [TS]

  asked for my endorsement and expressed a [TS]

  desire to work with me and even use that [TS]

  line and you know and I wrote them both [TS]

  back it was like I'm just gonna you know [TS]

  i'm going to sell my boat up the Nile [TS]

  for a while I don't really want to I [TS]

  don't want to talk to either you guys or [TS]

  interact with you at all and you know [TS]

  and the idea that one of you one of you [TS]

  is going to champion the arcs on my [TS]

  behalf like no thanks [TS]

  the Arts will be just fine without your [TS]

  johnny-come-lately [TS]

  advocacy but again you know that's the [TS]

  people will remember me as the the arts [TS]

  candidate or something which is like [TS]

  yeah that's fine but but that's the [TS]

  shorthand you end up being defined by [TS]

  one or two words when you run for office [TS]

  this way right [TS]

  oh that's the that's the Union candidate [TS]

  or that's the arts candidate ER that's [TS]

  the housing candidate or the like you [TS]

  said all along that's that that's the [TS]

  game is that you [TS]

  you know that's going to happen that [TS]

  appellation is going to come along [TS]

  you win if you get that to be the one [TS]

  that you wanted [TS]

  yeah right tough on crime or whatever [TS]

  right and against the tunnel anti tunnel [TS]

  the birth is ours called Bertha again [TS]

  through the tunnel and you can't be too [TS]

  many of those you know you can't be [TS]

  against the tunnel but for the airport [TS]

  as confusing as confusing us to get one [TS]

  come on one thing pick up there you for [TS]

  the airport against the tunnel is [TS]

  well-rounded thing [TS]

  don't stop proud of you [TS]

  we're all very proud of you thanks [TS]