Roderick on the Line

Ep. 216: "You Could Do Less Magic"


  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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  supertrain [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John I'm Merlin how's it going [TS]

  good it's little early [TS]

  yeah yeah you know it is it you know [TS]

  actually we're starting early good for [TS]

  you [TS]

  yeah 3 minutes early ding dong woo hoo [TS]

  that's how about the place next door how [TS]

  they're like renovating for two months I [TS]

  told you about this right yeah you did [TS]

  oh my god citizens of banging the way [TS]

  out yeah there's some banging also i [TS]

  mean it's gonna clear this up because [TS]

  there may be some noise i will do my [TS]

  usual poor attempt to mute but uh yeah I [TS]

  think this play it's a shitshow the the [TS]

  Terran stuff i think these guys might be [TS]

  a little bit off the books [TS]

  mmm the contractors they've got busy [TS]

  yeah i mean for example my daughter I'd [TS]

  like to walk by and just gonna stick our [TS]

  heads in to see what's going on course [TS]

  yes so we noticed that they tour of a [TS]

  bunch of the floor and there were lots [TS]

  of like several inches to a foot deep [TS]

  pools of water in the place which [TS]

  doesn't seem normal as part of the [TS]

  demolition process knowing you it's a [TS]

  very sandy soil where you are absolutely [TS]

  should be excellent drainage yeah yeah [TS]

  you think so and but then we walked by [TS]

  and there was a whole bunch of you know [TS]

  the orange like heavy duty extension [TS]

  cord how the budget that's sitting in a [TS]

  pool of water right now listen I'm no [TS]

  junior high safety video but just here [TS]

  to say I don't know if that's the best [TS]

  practicing construction was it plugged [TS]

  into anything like just resting my just [TS]

  been storing it in the water was like I [TS]

  guess it's safe for me that is [TS]

  that's actually pretty standard yeah [TS]

  pretty standard yet women if you if you [TS]

  read the manual actually if you buy an [TS]

  extension cord was right on it [TS]

  stormwater don't snore at the store in [TS]

  standing water storage standing water [TS]

  um listen one thing huh [TS]

  you know what standing water gets the [TS]

  gas face [TS]

  yeah boom you know what I i forgot to [TS]

  get mine on keyboard all i have right [TS]

  now Mikey Porsha get my show you my [TS]

  keyboard yeah i don't know i think the [TS]

  people like to hear the keyboard because [TS]

  they know they know that research being [TS]

  done they know that they know the work [TS]

  is getting you know what I you know [TS]

  let's let's let's let's clear the air [TS]

  about this because people right you know [TS]

  i do it right in [TS]

  they were they right in a sentence [TS]

  letters yeah you know and you know [TS]

  everybody's got a thought in that that's [TS]

  ok but you know if you hear me typing or [TS]

  johns talking please don't assume that [TS]

  i'm bored assume that it's my job to [TS]

  make the show go and have to show things [TS]

  and sometimes that requires typing so [TS]

  today you're really gonna hear it see [TS]

  this i haven't used this one in a while [TS]

  but this is what this one sounds like [TS]

  the thing that the thing that viewers [TS]

  should know is that you know it is you [TS]

  cannot on this show who you cannot let [TS]

  your guard down for a second all you [TS]

  kidding me you know like you couldn't [TS]

  get bored and start surfing the internet [TS]

  because whoa you might come back into [TS]

  the conversation and we're all the way [TS]

  out you know we're all the way out [TS]

  talking about which dog is which Beatle [TS]

  you know like what if you had to do a [TS]

  velvet painting of the beatles as dog on [TS]

  capturing that who would be what right [TS]

  you're gonna and you're going to just be [TS]

  like oh sorry i was surfing the web and [TS]

  I i didn't get better [TS]

  july worry I lose sleep over this [TS]

  because i think a lot of people you know [TS]

  god bless you I'm glad you're enjoying [TS]

  podcast welcome i'm glad but I worry [TS]

  sometimes that people get so used to [TS]

  listen to these goddamn spoon-fed [TS]

  podcasts [TS]

  wow you know in a good way like I'm glad [TS]

  it's nice relaxing [TS]

  sure sure this kind of shows we go like [TS]

  hey we're back [TS]

  here's the thing we're talking about and [TS]

  this is what we're going to talk about [TS]

  here you can't do that you can't go get [TS]

  a beverage and just hope you're going to [TS]

  catch up your mind gold you're leaving [TS]

  color in the ground [TS]

  I think a lot of the reason that people [TS]

  listen to this program over and over [TS]

  four sometimes five times all the way [TS]

  through the entire series [TS]

  who is it the first time I listen to it [TS]

  on in their car [TS]

  yeah matter like i didn't get all that [TS]

  and so the second time I listen to it [TS]

  while they were doing the dishes still [TS]

  who [TS]

  so the third time they sat in their [TS]

  living rooms upstairs 3rd time they're [TS]

  angry the other angry there staring at [TS]

  the speaker now they're not listening to [TS]

  internet put it on this the speaker and [TS]

  have seen accuracies their lives staring [TS]

  at the speaker yeah they realize that [TS]

  wasn't enough [TS]

  uh-huh but you know the sixth time you [TS]

  listen you realize it's really your [TS]

  fault as a listener [TS]

  well the six-time presumably you have a [TS]

  transcript in your hand [TS]

  yeah you're listening to the program [TS]

  eyes closed in front of a speaker [TS]

  Johnny are you checking your email why [TS]

  you're doing this no I'm afraid you [TS]

  cannot know you gonna sit you're gonna [TS]

  sit like a gentleman [TS]

  yeah and you're gonna listen you for all [TS]

  those notes you took in your Italian [TS]

  nope you're gonna realize how much you [TS]

  got wrong because you miss things is [TS]

  your car is your is your child sitting [TS]

  in a car seat babbling some fucking kid [TS]

  nonsense to me know now [TS]

  no leave it that's right are you sitting [TS]

  are you waiting for the light to change [TS]

  right all the food there's a lot to get [TS]

  i was at a conference this past week who [TS]

  you went all the way to the sudden so [TS]

  conference [TS]

  yeah the wonderful zoso conference uh [TS]

  run by wonderful and bees and it was [TS]

  there were a lot of podcasters there [TS]

  no yeah it's it's lousy with podcast [TS]

  lousy with podcast also look at a lot of [TS]

  makers there John every single person [TS]

  there was a maker who or a creative some [TS]

  kind but the and and they're more on [TS]

  that I'm gonna circle back to that ok [TS]

  but a lot of podcasters and also a lot [TS]

  of podcast consumers interesting so in a [TS]

  way it was sort of a podcast trade fair [TS]

  huh [TS]

  there are a lot of booths a you would go [TS]

  around and pick up swagg each booth as [TS]

  long as they could get your email [TS]

  address [TS]

  yeah sure no no that's not how it [TS]

  happened at all but a lot of people want [TS]

  to talk to me first of all I want to [TS]

  talk to me about you that [TS]

  yeah because they say oh merlin mann is [TS]

  it true that and I'm like let me stop [TS]

  you right there probably [TS]

  well not awkward oh no don't you talk to [TS]

  people having children is a Merlin what [TS]

  this Merlin mean when he and then I say [TS]

  let me stop you right there [TS]

  god I have no idea this is this is [TS]

  literally my nightmare [TS]

  no no it's wonderful there's so many [TS]

  Merlin fans out there my god there and [TS]

  they're starved for Merlin time and so [TS]

  that's what I'm there for [TS]

  kind of sort of Merlin problem and then [TS]

  but the interesting thing is talking to [TS]

  other podcasters about their experience [TS]

  podcasting oh you know you know sitting [TS]

  around a big table there's a big roast [TS]

  on the table but candelabra are burnin [TS]

  the wine is flowing the wine is flowing [TS]

  someone's playing a lute that is we are [TS]

  pretty much just out at nine tyke i [TS]

  guess and then everyone has a different [TS]

  experience because everyone this is the [TS]

  crazy thing about podcasting that a lot [TS]

  of people don't know everyone does a [TS]

  different kind of podcast everyone does [TS]

  a different kind of podcast yeah it's a [TS]

  it's a situation where one person's [TS]

  podcast seems like it should be [TS]

  instructive for another person doing a [TS]

  podcast but really every podcast is [TS]

  different Merlin oh my god that's [TS]

  actually so much like life it's [TS]

  strangely like life where people like to [TS]

  give advice because they went through [TS]

  the mouse maze in this given way and [TS]

  they found cheese and didn't die so that [TS]

  pretty sure that you write a book about [TS]

  it well and what what and who moved my [TS]

  cheese right became a national and [TS]

  international bestseller who my feeling [TS]

  about it was a lot of what people want [TS]

  to talk about is podcasting was how does [TS]

  one make a living podcast well and you [TS]

  know what I wanted to talk about is why [TS]

  is podcasting such an illegitimate art [TS]

  form because it really is up to him to [TS]

  me okay [TS]

  oh you know what I saw many notes i just [TS]

  want to say in passing us I mean it [TS]

  sounds like you did talk to a lot of [TS]

  people like and you tell me the just [TS]

  that I got people have many quotes from [TS]

  you on the twitter which is an online [TS]

  service and you [TS]

  it sounds like you were talking about [TS]

  you pushed back against the idea of [TS]

  doing this because it was too felt too [TS]

  easy that was a fair this is ultimately [TS]

  the big question right I as I was / as i [TS]

  was preparing to go onstage it as in all [TS]

  cases when you go on stage it never [TS]

  turns out the way you planned it [TS]

  one of the things i was thinking about [TS]

  quite a bit was that extemporaneous [TS]

  performance comes very naturally to me [TS]

  for a lot of people it's it's it's very [TS]

  hard right they don't want to get you [TS]

  know it's like everybody's nightmare [TS]

  right you're pushed out onstage with and [TS]

  you have no and you're not prepared they [TS]

  say they say animals has been updated [TS]

  recently but it's been said as [TS]

  conventional wisdom for a long time that [TS]

  American second greatest fears death and [TS]

  their first greatest fear is public [TS]

  speaking [TS]

  add to that whether or not that's [TS]

  exactly true or accurate [TS]

  add to that going out and winning it [TS]

  going on that that's the stuff of [TS]

  nightmares for a lot right but i think [TS]

  it really is right you push out there [TS]

  and and it's and your and the lights [TS]

  come on and it's a big room full of [TS]

  people you don't know what you're there [TS]

  to do and watching people at this [TS]

  conference to get up and give speeches [TS]

  it was obvious that a lot of lot of the [TS]

  speaker's even though they were they [TS]

  were professionally very accomplished [TS]

  everyone was very interested in what [TS]

  they had to say they were full of [TS]

  anxiety just about the performance of [TS]

  their talk like I have to go out and [TS]

  talk for 20 minutes in front of people [TS]

  and so they have a PowerPoint and they [TS]

  they have their script and their script [TS]

  is is scrolling at their feet on a [TS]

  television set and when I was watching [TS]

  for backstage a lot of times you know [TS]

  the speaker's very naturalistic but [TS]

  there it's word-for-word kind of their [TS]

  prepared text and so part of what i [TS]

  wanted to talk about was look I'm [TS]

  walking out here i have no I'm i have [TS]

  really done very little preparation [TS]

  about what I'm going to say [TS]

  and honestly if if if I looked over to [TS]

  the side of the stage after my 20 [TS]

  minutes was done and there was somebody [TS]

  holding a sign that said can you stretch [TS]

  it for another hour [TS]

  I'd be like great like this kind of [TS]

  thing it's not like you're like you're [TS]

  playing at the opening of them all right [TS]

  there there's nobody is nobody's [TS]

  repelling behind [TS]

  stretch shirt still a visit at isn't [TS]

  propelling well i'm playing with no [TS]

  monitors at 7am in front of the mall now [TS]

  this is just me talking to you about [TS]

  stuff and I could do it for hours but [TS]

  the but somehow the fact that it is [TS]

  everyone's greatest fear and and for [TS]

  most people very difficult to do doesn't [TS]

  impart any sense that doing it is like a [TS]

  technical skill that should be reward [TS]

  should be rewarded cook commensurate [TS]

  with its difficulty right like if you if [TS]

  you are a mathematician everybody [TS]

  recognizes that that's very difficult [TS]

  they don't know how to do it and they [TS]

  say this is something that that you [TS]

  should be either rewarded for with pay [TS]

  or with stature if you can run a [TS]

  four-minute mile you know you get a [TS]

  medal or everybody applauds but there's [TS]

  a sense of if you can get up and wing it [TS]

  that you're getting away with murder [TS]

  somehow you know everyone's reactions [TS]

  are like Oh mm um you didn't try very [TS]

  hard or you know there's a there's this [TS]

  feeling or men and maybe it's just me [TS]

  maybe I'm just the one carrying this but [TS]

  that somehow the person that slaved for [TS]

  weeks over the powerpoint demonstration [TS]

  in order that they control their anxiety [TS]

  enough to give a kind of stilted [TS]

  performance has done more work and [TS]

  therefore their performances more valid [TS]

  than the person who can get up and given [TS]

  an entertaining talk without notes and [TS]

  this was a this was this is something [TS]

  that's always kind of been my I'm always [TS]

  wrestling with this right because the [TS]

  the most fun I have is doing this [TS]

  podcast in some ways it's something I'm [TS]

  very very proud of or maybe even the [TS]

  most proud of but we you and I just get [TS]

  on here and wing it every week and so it [TS]

  also feels a little illegitimate like [TS]

  cheating [TS]

  yeah that this be our that this be [TS]

  something were rewarded for that this [TS]

  b.i.g even considered a job over because [TS]

  it's just like a two guys jacking off [TS]

  whoa [TS]

  and it's it's it's it's a skill set [TS]

  it'sit's just as difficult as as being a [TS]

  good painter or something but it seems [TS]

  it seems like i don't know somehow [TS]

  invalid who and I wanted to talk about [TS]

  that but then when I got on stage I just [TS]

  made like 40 minutes of Portland jokes [TS]

  and then drop trial flip the audience [TS]

  off went and then standing out classic [TS]

  Roderick you know what I mean because [TS]

  that's my brand you know and that's what [TS]

  people come and that's what they expect [TS]

  when you look nice today was there we [TS]

  actually mostly at well at adams request [TS]

  we swore that we would make poop jokes [TS]

  huh and it's got requests we swore that [TS]

  we would make Portland jokes and then we [TS]

  went out there and i did about 40 [TS]

  minutes of Portland poop jokes [TS]

  yeah it was all put Portland all poop [TS]

  you can't help yourself yeah i'll put a [TS]

  little bit yeah yeah um so I don't know [TS]

  you know I I thought I got thoughts [TS]

  yeah I look at people better you know [TS]

  really really really really put a lot of [TS]

  effort into doing these things that are [TS]

  sort of that are second nature to me and [TS]

  obviously like I would have to put a lot [TS]

  of effort into doing something you know [TS]

  work right [TS]

  that's what's really hard for me to do [TS]

  your very food [TS]

  this came up on the very special relayed [TS]

  FM members-only edition of reconcile [TS]

  differences on what you were kind enough [TS]

  to guests that came up at the end where [TS]

  you're saying you wish you were you wish [TS]

  you were more than a jack-of-all-trades [TS]

  you wish you are really good at [TS]

  something and our friend John syracuse [TS]

  it took me to task on this thing you're [TS]

  a professional musician like yeah you [TS]

  you get paid you get to do stuff or not [TS]

  get to do stuff I know to what do you [TS]

  mean again [TS]

  and then it's gonna be its own reward [TS]

  man everybody's trying to steal your [TS]

  copper pipe but the but yeah I think he [TS]

  made an interesting point which is that [TS]

  he ran okay let me try something up this [TS]

  way I think that so I I want to talk [TS]

  more about a bunch of details that are [TS]

  wrapped up in what you're saying that [TS]

  have to do with things like how you feel [TS]

  about the audience is feeling about you [TS]

  what are the stakes for it going wrong [TS]

  because i think that greatly changes the [TS]

  equation for a lot of people but set [TS]

  that aside for a minute I think anything [TS]

  that doesn't feel impossibly difficult [TS]

  to US doesn't feel like work and I think [TS]

  that's a problem and i'm not talking [TS]

  about anything here and I I this is a [TS]

  very back to work is kind of point to [TS]

  make but i think a lot of us are [TS]

  suspicious of things that aren't where [TS]

  we have like I don't know if it's sunk [TS]

  cost fallacy or something but where if [TS]

  we put a bunch of effort time education [TS]

  and resources into one part of our life [TS]

  and that's not the part that is our job [TS]

  we feel like we're it work with feel [TS]

  like we're being not just not just that [TS]

  were getting away with something but [TS]

  that we're like almost we're being [TS]

  disloyal to the time that we spend in [TS]

  the past and I think that sometimes [TS]

  that's great because it can make you [TS]

  want to stick with it and try harder and [TS]

  you know thrive but other times it [TS]

  really works across purposes because [TS]

  it's not just that it's easy but if it's [TS]

  something that feels good to do I think [TS]

  people are suspicious of it and that's a [TS]

  very privileged thing to say because [TS]

  we're really we're really fortunate a [TS]

  lot of ways to get to do what we're [TS]

  doing but I think that's true for almost [TS]

  everybody were like if you feel like [TS]

  there's this some some part of us and [TS]

  I'm I'm from the Midwest your mantra [TS]

  Ohio your mom is from Ohio [TS]

  I think there is a certain kind of I [TS]

  don't know if it's Puritan but there's a [TS]

  certain kind of Midwestern feeling that [TS]

  if you're happy you're probably doing [TS]

  something wrong [TS]

  yeah i think it's i think it's quicker [TS]

  but but yeah i agree if you're happy you [TS]

  must be doing something wrong [TS]

  that's I mean that's reductive and I'm [TS]

  trying to make this about more than just [TS]

  this podcast but yeah get the other [TS]

  thing just just just to circle back that [TS]

  one thing was on and we'll get back to [TS]

  beatles dogs i hope but in that case [TS]

  think about this though you're going in [TS]

  front of a bunch of people wear well [TS]

  let's put it this way [TS]

  were you worried worried worried that [TS]

  the audience would not be receptive to [TS]

  what you had to say what were you [TS]

  concerned really like losing sleep over [TS]

  like whether people would be going into [TS]

  this with a negative feeling about you [TS]

  pretty loaded for bear or conversely [TS]

  like were you worried that you had to [TS]

  make a certain case to that particular [TS]

  audience and did that cause you stress [TS]

  before the talk I mean there's a little [TS]

  bit of stress now involved in getting up [TS]

  and giving speeches just because the [TS]

  because the atmosphere around [TS]

  mansplaining particularly middle-aged [TS]

  white men explaining middle mansplaining [TS]

  is so fraught right that there's there [TS]

  are camps in which my presence at an [TS]

  event is already suspect already [TS]

  problematic and so you know standing up [TS]

  on stage in front of people and being my [TS]

  natural self and saying hello everyone [TS]

  I'm a big middle-aged white guy didn't [TS]

  suck a bag of different things to say [TS]

  about stuff [TS]

  nice to meet you I've got ideas about [TS]

  things [TS]

  there's there is now a you know like an [TS]

  inhibition that that there will be [TS]

  people in the audience primed to be at [TS]

  to be looking for a problem or or you [TS]

  know and they're one end and at the last [TS]

  at this XOXO there was up there was a [TS]

  person who to me very clearly came [TS]

  already angry and found a way to fit [TS]

  like and tweeted halfway through my [TS]

  presentation about my unexamined [TS]

  privilege halfway through a presentation [TS]

  that you know she she did not bother 22 [TS]

  and she didn't tweet at the end right so [TS]

  maybe by the end she had [TS]

  she had heard things in the second half [TS]

  of the presentation that made her [TS]

  realize that the first half of the [TS]

  presentation was set up and then the you [TS]

  know the message of the second half [TS]

  relieves the tension of the first half [TS]

  it's a big part of performance so [TS]

  halfway through she's already tweeting [TS]

  about my own examine privilege and my [TS]

  feeling is that she came into the [TS]

  conference either having already [TS]

  underlined by name as a person that she [TS]

  was going to you know was going to do a [TS]

  up a critique of on these on this topic [TS]

  right i mean she was she was already mad [TS]

  that i was there and then up and then [TS]

  someone can Fred I think it's the same [TS]

  woman confronted me later in the middle [TS]

  of a in like got up and came over and [TS]

  yelled at me in the audience because I [TS]

  got up to [TS]

  i got up at the end of someone else's [TS]

  presentation did a little bit of a Kanye [TS]

  like Taylor I'm gonna let you finish but [TS]

  I just have an anecdote here that'll and [TS]

  you know again I'm a performer was it [TS]

  was someone you know [TS]

  no no I mean that the person you're [TS]

  conning know uh but they are fellow [TS]

  performer and I'm there as a paper [TS]

  former and my job is to perform and I [TS]

  know what to provide oh what a good [TS]

  performances right I'm not I know I'm [TS]

  not stepping on anybody it was a had an [TS]

  anecdote it was apropos it everybody [TS]

  liked it but this person same person i [TS]

  think you know came over and gave me a [TS]

  in a in an exaggerated stage whisper [TS]

  which seemed to be trying to draw [TS]

  attention to herself [TS]

  they gave me a lecture about how I how [TS]

  rude i had been in you know in standing [TS]

  up and making a comment to the room and [TS]

  she was entirely incorrect and again [TS]

  felt like she came into the event loaded [TS]

  for bear looking for a reason you know [TS]

  so there is a certain amount of that [TS]

  when I'm preparing to give a talk at [TS]

  XOXO for instance where I'm like you [TS]

  know is there going to be something in [TS]

  my eye you know I know there's not gonna [TS]

  be anything in my presentation but is [TS]

  there just something in my main you know [TS]

  something in just my in my person that [TS]

  someone in the audience is going to find [TS]

  it is going to trigger something is [TS]

  going to trigger someone else just in [TS]

  the way that i carry myself in the sharp [TS]

  my voice in my casualness in the fat in [TS]

  the very fact that i am comfortable [TS]

  standing up in front of a room that [TS]

  alone is evidence of my status as a [TS]

  white male in a patriarchal culture and [TS]

  so my comfort is a priori on offense and [TS]

  reflecting on my comfort in anything [TS]

  other than an apologetic tone for its [TS]

  very existence is an offense so but I [TS]

  don't have any question about my ability [TS]

  to extemporaneously entertain an [TS]

  audience or to begin a story take it [TS]

  through a through a journey down a set [TS]

  of Rapids and at the end of the story [TS]

  you know have it have performed an arc [TS]

  and and at the end there's some some [TS]

  resolution and it feels like a complete [TS]

  complete work and it's like a play with [TS]

  acts so I know how to do that and I [TS]

  don't either i'm not up in the middle of [TS]

  the night going i hope that I don't get [TS]

  halfway through and and blank or I hope [TS]

  you know that the audit that I'm not up [TS]

  there dying you know that stuff doesn't [TS]

  really worry I've died a thousand deaths [TS]

  in front of a crowd and it's that it [TS]

  doesn't i'm not scared of right if i'm [TS]

  laying jokes out there and the and the [TS]

  laughter is tepid and it and it feels [TS]

  like boy I really lost this audience a [TS]

  long time ago i still can get them back [TS]

  you get him back just by saying boy lost [TS]

  you guys a long time ago and my little [TS]

  family and conversely [TS]

  pandering to what you perceive to be [TS]

  some part of the audience that I'm gonna [TS]

  put this pandering to there's no way to [TS]

  inoculate yourself is the way I would [TS]

  put it is that you know I think [TS]

  sometimes when I'm talking to people who [TS]

  are thinking about doing a thing [TS]

  whatever that thing is one of the things [TS]

  I feel like I've learned it's never easy [TS]

  but you have to just accept that there [TS]

  are always going to be people who just [TS]

  don't like you and they don't like what [TS]

  this is very very simple but this is the [TS]

  kind of thing where I think people need [TS]

  to hear this i know i need to hear this [TS]

  is that sometimes there are going to be [TS]

  people who just like on your very best [TS]

  day the best that you're capable of [TS]

  they still just basically don't like you [TS]

  it doesn't make him a bad person it [TS]

  doesn't make them prejudice [TS]

  I'm that way about some people there's [TS]

  just some people like you know guy fieri [TS]

  gonna tell you like his persona bugs me [TS]

  but he seems like a genuinely nice guy [TS]

  but I don't like his persona I would not [TS]

  seek out his programming and that's why [TS]

  sometimes gets to be a joke on here but [TS]

  along trying to say is that like what [TS]

  you what you can't do is you don't cut [TS]

  muscle on the parts of your personality [TS]

  or your performance style that are that [TS]

  are a big part of who you are and what [TS]

  you do like sometimes you know I'm not [TS]

  the biggest fan of magic tricks and [TS]

  illusions but I would never want to go [TS]

  to a show where the person onstage [TS]

  decides they're gonna do less magic in [TS]

  order to make me happy because that's [TS]

  not what the show is about but that said [TS]

  I want to circle back to this later when [TS]

  you're done but the this is this is the [TS]

  thing that's different though is you [TS]

  know I i think a big part of your one's [TS]

  confidence going on stages at the very [TS]

  least like if this thing goes totally [TS]

  wrong if it goes terrible if I feel [TS]

  misunderstood if I say something dumb in [TS]

  a way I didn't mean to say like what are [TS]

  the stakes and I think that feeling of [TS]

  steaks is a big part of what makes [TS]

  people very reluctant to do anything in [TS]

  front of other people and it's also what [TS]

  causes people to not just prepare but to [TS]

  maybe over-prepare until they eventually [TS]

  squeeze every bit of personality and the [TS]

  potential for the human soul of what [TS]

  they're doing [TS]

  I'm not going to criticize that like if [TS]

  you're at apple and you are in a group [TS]

  whose I don't know whatever the [TS]

  definition of not a successful group it [TS]

  up [TS]

  this and you have to get up in front of [TS]

  a bunch of people who are used to [TS]

  fantastic presentations about successful [TS]

  products and you've got to be the one [TS]

  who goes up in your pack your PowerPoint [TS]

  deck goes wrong and you have to report [TS]

  that results I'd be nervous about that [TS]

  too [TS]

  it's nice to be in a place where you [TS]

  feel like I can be the person I want to [TS]

  be in front of these people with the [TS]

  level of preparation i think is [TS]

  appropriate and do what I think is best [TS]

  to put on a good show and you're a [TS]

  performer that's like--that's what they [TS]

  bring you in for [TS]

  but i think the challenge is and and you [TS]

  know and and XOXO is a is a place where [TS]

  the where that the temperatures turned [TS]

  up a little bit on this which is that at [TS]

  XOXO me talking to this group of people [TS]

  that are largely my peers the stakes are [TS]

  one thing but because it's going on the [TS]

  internet and because it's never a [TS]

  hundred percent clear what the what the [TS]

  of the moment issue is now it's possible [TS]

  that you could because we see it all the [TS]

  time someone gets up and gives what they [TS]

  think is in a an innocent or innocuous [TS]

  presentation that they are expecting is [TS]

  going to be received one way or or could [TS]

  we also stipulate it's it's something [TS]

  where you maybe even took pains to have [TS]

  it not be something that's broadly [TS]

  offensive maybe then you maybe you think [TS]

  you're saying something from maybe even [TS]

  a vulnerable point about yourself that [TS]

  you don't you know you're absolutely not [TS]

  there to hurt anybody's feelings or to [TS]

  exercise privilege right i mean isn't [TS]

  that part of it is like even if you feel [TS]

  like you've prepared for that you still [TS]

  can't really be prepared for that you [TS]

  cannot because I mean I think you can [TS]

  buy doing exactly what you just said [TS]

  which is just sort of do less magic but [TS]

  if you are trying to if you're trying to [TS]

  do something original and unusual and do [TS]

  something in within your character that [TS]

  where you're you are pushing boundaries [TS]

  which is a thing that we always [TS]

  particularly as artists you need to push [TS]

  boundaries that is that is the game [TS]

  that's how we advance the whole story [TS]

  the human story push boundaries [TS]

  but but you get into a posture where [TS]

  we're bound Ruiz are thought of as a [TS]

  different thing or or respecting [TS]

  boundaries is also a like a prime [TS]

  directive and how to push boundaries and [TS]

  respect boundaries at the same time I [TS]

  mean every person is trying to do it in [TS]

  a different way but you can never know [TS]

  is whether your offhand comment your [TS]

  awkward attempt to recover from a joke [TS]

  you're um you know you're panicked [TS]

  response to a ejaculation from the crowd [TS]

  that caught you off guard that you [TS]

  didn't expect whether that is going to [TS]

  be looped and put into the world and [TS]

  you're going to be the next one that's [TS]

  pilloried and that's the thing you just [TS]

  can't all you can do now is trust that [TS]

  all the years that you've spent on the [TS]

  balance beam learning how to do [TS]

  gymnastics is going to save you in that [TS]

  moment but i see i see people take the [TS]

  stage and that their panic is not just [TS]

  like what if you know what [TS]

  what if i walk out onstage and I look [TS]

  down and I'm not wearing any clothes but [TS]

  it's also like what if i get out there [TS]

  and in the middle of a thing that's [TS]

  going great i say the wrong thing either [TS]

  because it's written in my speech and I [TS]

  didn't realize that it's that the word I [TS]

  choses is a word that two days ago [TS]

  became incredibly fraught or because [TS]

  somebody in the crowd goes that's not [TS]

  funny and I reply to them just in the [TS]

  spirit of the moment and that you know [TS]

  and the and that becomes a thing that [TS]

  even if it worked in the room you know [TS]

  what I mean like even if everybody at [TS]

  the place gets it and goes yeah but it [TS]

  changes it changes the temperature [TS]

  well but but if the one person in the [TS]

  room that as you described earlier who [TS]

  just isn't going to like you no matter [TS]

  what your their guy fieri if that person [TS]

  is is built or came with a plan [TS]

  and his tape recording you and put it [TS]

  online and either in context or out and [TS]

  says look at this [TS]

  I mean a lot of times you can put [TS]

  somebody's comments completely in [TS]

  context it's not always a question of of [TS]

  d contextualizing you put a completely [TS]

  in context but if you put if you put a [TS]

  like a scroll underneath that says [TS]

  everything you know everything that's [TS]

  being said here is offensive [TS]

  you can call you can you can take the [TS]

  context you can change the context just [TS]

  by captioning [TS]

  oh yeah bye-bye hang a lantern on am [TS]

  yeah right so it's like if I was [TS]

  watching this video without any [TS]

  background music I would feel like this [TS]

  was an interesting scene but all of a [TS]

  sudden there's there's background music [TS]

  flown in the form of critical context or [TS]

  or it you know just like here the [TS]

  strings are getting all tense now and [TS]

  all the sudden these words have a all [TS]

  the sudden these words are now either [TS]

  offensive or have a different meaning [TS]

  so so yeah the stakes the potential [TS]

  stakes have changed for every kind of [TS]

  one of these things and I'm not worried [TS]

  about it at in my core you know because [TS]

  because there's a very real risk and I [TS]

  you know I felt it just between you and [TS]

  me and and sort of with everybody in our [TS]

  in our peer group specifically of white [TS]

  middle-aged guys making things that we [TS]

  all recognize that at some point or [TS]

  another we may be up on the cross [TS]

  it's it's part of the it's just part of [TS]

  the new reality and lots of people have [TS]

  spent a lot of time up on the cross in [TS]

  the past and Israeli s though not [TS]

  necessarily I mean Jesus was a [TS]

  middle-aged white guy he's the first one [TS]

  is middle-aged for his time I think yeah [TS]

  yeah right because people don't live to [TS]

  be 60 although i heard that that was [TS]

  that's recently dispel turns out [TS]

  but you know what I'm saying like you [TS]

  think I do i mean i-i I boy I got mixed [TS]

  super mixed not feelings just thoughts [TS]

  about about a lot of this stuff i mean [TS]

  one thing to keep in mind is that I try [TS]

  to keep I'm not trying to school you but [TS]

  one thing I try to keep in mind is that [TS]

  we one thing that makes a potentially [TS]

  makes our American experiment good is [TS]

  that there are people that will always [TS]

  be opposed to each other and that's okay [TS]

  i mean this gets a little bit to the [TS]

  whole you know we can all agree on [TS]

  cheese thing where we feel this need to [TS]

  find something in common when well you [TS]

  know if we are antithetical e opposed to [TS]

  this one's to a certain given point like [TS]

  we have to accept that that's that's [TS]

  part of the conversation and that maybe [TS]

  we maybe neither one of us should say [TS]

  things we don't think are true in order [TS]

  to look like we're being collegio that's [TS]

  that's a big part of it the any other [TS]

  part of it is that there's i'm looking [TS]

  at the wikipedia page for a term i [TS]

  learned in this election cycle oppo [TS]

  which is short for opposition research [TS]

  and it's the kind of dossiers that get [TS]

  compiled on people it's you know along [TS]

  the lines of like somebody following a [TS]

  candidate around with a camera recording [TS]

  every single thing they say and then you [TS]

  know being able to go in and highlight [TS]

  you know for certain [TS]

  yeah i mean but the thing is that's [TS]

  that's I mean I guess the thing is [TS]

  though like is that bad is that bad that [TS]

  there are people who just don't like us [TS]

  or don't like a given person for four [TS]

  reasons to the cultural could be [TS]

  political [TS]

  I mean sometimes that means racism but a [TS]

  lot of time it doesn't it just means [TS]

  that's just that's just not for me or [TS]

  the way that this person presents is [TS]

  antithetical to the stuff that I believe [TS]

  in is that means either one of us has to [TS]

  change [TS]

  not necessarily I don't think I mean I'm [TS]

  not trying to say i'm not trying to say [TS]

  put the KKK up at XOXO that's a lot of [TS]

  letters but i'm trying to say i like [TS]

  that's part of being a grown-up is just [TS]

  realizing that like you should your this [TS]

  is not seventh grade you guys don't [TS]

  change your personality to please [TS]

  whoever happens to be in the room or [TS]

  you're never going to become an actual [TS]

  person i think that the I think that [TS]

  we're in a state and I was thinking [TS]

  about this the other day we used to live [TS]

  in a world in which the media ostensibly [TS]

  tried to be nonpartisan independent [TS]

  tried to be fair and balanced and [TS]

  there's a ton of media critique that you [TS]

  know over the years explain to us like [TS]

  the media was not fair and balanced the [TS]

  video was operating you know that i'm [TS]

  talking mainstream media in a in a [TS]

  closed system but he just in in older [TS]

  times just called the press the press [TS]

  right like the people who were for [TS]

  example not reporting on you know [TS]

  results health state sure or Kennedy's [TS]

  Addison's disease yeah but with the [TS]

  presumption I think of a world kind of [TS]

  close to the one we're living in now [TS]

  where there's a lot more access the B we [TS]

  can see more deeply you could not you [TS]

  could not hide Kennedy's Addison's [TS]

  disease now right because they're just [TS]

  there are a lot of people that aren't [TS]

  part of the the tiny little club anymore [TS]

  that lets see that is newsworthy and our [TS]

  and it would be capable of reporting but [TS]

  what I don't think we I don't think 25 [TS]

  years ago media prognosticator 'he's [TS]

  could have seen could have foreseen a [TS]

  world in which media now is deeply and [TS]

  universally biased like every single [TS]

  media outlet nobody's pretending to be [TS]

  unbiased anymore it's it's quite the [TS]

  opposite [TS]

  every single everything everybody is a [TS]

  reporter and everybody is putting a real [TS]

  stamp on it and I'm i was thinking like [TS]

  is universally biased media in some ways [TS]

  accomplishing a lack of bias or or like [TS]

  your ability to put you take if you take [TS]

  all the reporting as a whole [TS]

  yeah if you take it I wasn't trying to [TS]

  like insert false equivalency into every [TS]

  single person's coverage you look at [TS]

  this as many many different voices that [TS]

  understandably have a point of view [TS]

  yeah and that ultimately if you're [TS]

  trying up a more nuanced idea of what is [TS]

  what actually transpired is it go is [TS]

  accomplishable right you can look at it [TS]

  you can look at all of the reporting [TS]

  across a wide spectrum and get maybe [TS]

  even a better picture of what happened [TS]

  then if you're if five people are [TS]

  they're trying to be on by its not [TS]

  historically what papers in the UK have [TS]

  done [TS]

  I mean it has not historically been [TS]

  certain papers even to this day that the [TS]

  Guardian tends to be more liberal than [TS]

  theirs isn't how it's worked [TS]

  historically there there it's like that [TS]

  was more they were more openly [TS]

  contentious but they were still major I [TS]

  mean they get it you needed resources to [TS]

  be able to be heard and resources always [TS]

  come with strings attached and now we [TS]

  just don't have that right you don't [TS]

  need you don't need any resources if [TS]

  you're the one person sitting there with [TS]

  your cell phone when a comet streaks [TS]

  across the sky yet that you did your [TS]

  footage will find a place in the world [TS]

  right here mean youyou that will be on [TS]

  the news tomorrow even if you're the [TS]

  only one that caught it and that doesn't [TS]

  you don't have you're not a reporter [TS]

  you're not getting you're not out there [TS]

  working your beach and that's something [TS]

  there's a distinction there that started [TS]

  i'm gonna get in the nineteen eighties [TS]

  which is if you had a portable video [TS]

  camera [TS]

  you could be the one who is actually [TS]

  recording the media and res like you're [TS]

  basically Ronnie can King right but the [TS]

  things you've always been there has [TS]

  always been the opportunity for you to [TS]

  be interviewed as a witness of a thing [TS]

  but as the witness of a thing I don't [TS]

  need a semiotic air your Europe you're [TS]

  basically part of the story now but [TS]

  you're not the one who's actually [TS]

  bringing the evidence of that to the [TS]

  public [TS]

  right right it's still not still like a [TS]

  point of view you're the person who says [TS]

  I saw the accident and this is what [TS]

  happened well I saw the accident and [TS]

  this is what happened [TS]

  whereas I think there is that we tend to [TS]

  give more weight to something like you [TS]

  know that the Bigfoot tape right i mean [TS]

  like when you're able to go out and say [TS]

  you know [TS]

  i recorded this that has primacy and and [TS]

  that's something that didn't exist as [TS]

  widely before release the eighties [TS]

  probably the nineties right but i think [TS]

  the the the other side and the thing [TS]

  that we're now in a I don't know whether [TS]

  this is a transitional moment or whether [TS]

  it's this is this is the thing about [TS]

  transitional moments right you don't [TS]

  know whether this is just a five-year [TS]

  blip or whether this is the beginning of [TS]

  a new way of thinking and in most cases [TS]

  i think it's both right it's both a [TS]

  five-year blip and also five years from [TS]

  now we're going to be on the other side [TS]

  of this and will be somewhere different [TS]

  than we would have been but everybody's [TS]

  a pundit now everybody's x everybody [TS]

  thinks that they're hot take is also [TS]

  newsworthy and that's what makes the [TS]

  that's what makes the moment so pregnant [TS]

  like that and and I thought about this [TS]

  relative to this woman coming up to me [TS]

  in the audience and trying to dress me [TS]

  down for a thing [TS]

  ultimately what happened was i did a [TS]

  performance and she didn't like the [TS]

  performance and in that sense it's just [TS]

  like you say you don't have to be liked [TS]

  by everybody there's always going to be [TS]

  somebody that doesn't like Guy Fieri and [TS]

  they're not going to like that [TS]

  performance but her sense of her own [TS]

  importance or her sense of her role in [TS]

  that situation was not like I didn't [TS]

  like that performance but rather she saw [TS]

  herself as the I mean her job in that [TS]

  situation was to school me and shame me [TS]

  and correct the wrong and she had no [TS]

  agency there she wasn't a stakeholder [TS]

  she was just purchased a observer but [TS]

  all of a sudden she adopted it was now [TS]

  her responsibility to on behalf of the [TS]

  people onstage fellow performers on [TS]

  behalf of them [TS]

  she needed now to write this injustice [TS]

  and that's new and and it isn't simply [TS]

  like I don't I didn't like that [TS]

  I'm i don't like that performer I didn't [TS]

  like that performance and in the past [TS]

  you would go home and you dried-up you'd [TS]

  write up a blog post or you would write [TS]

  an article for the local newspaper that [TS]

  said this was a performance I thought it [TS]

  was bad but to add that other elements [TS]

  of you know i am a i'm a crusader [TS]

  personally for and and both working as a [TS]

  as a like a media member and also as a [TS]

  what is this other what what is this [TS]

  other job you know the job of the the [TS]

  like the the sort of puritanical the the [TS]

  the one picking up the first stone you [TS]

  know almost but I mean here's the thing [TS]

  is the part of his shifting the idea of [TS]

  what we consider a political space so [TS]

  you know the kinds of folks who started [TS]

  let's say in particular you can have [TS]

  people who were striking for union [TS]

  issues in previous generations or in the [TS]

  sixties and seventies people who are [TS]

  protesting whether that is segregation [TS]

  or protesting nuclear proliferation but [TS]

  you know there are people who took an [TS]

  active role in saying like i need to to [TS]

  paraphrase that guy from berkeley you [TS]

  know throw yourself upon the gears [TS]

  it's my job here to go in and disrupt [TS]

  what's happening here because and again [TS]

  we can all disagree on whether it is [TS]

  appropriate or not but I'm just saying [TS]

  there was a time when you could say look [TS]

  you know I I don't want to have a [TS]

  nuclear reactor my backyard [TS]

  I'm going to chain myself to a fence or [TS]

  the kind of folks who would say like I'm [TS]

  gonna go put a daisy into the the police [TS]

  officers rifle with whatever but it's [TS]

  just that now today it feels like and I [TS]

  don't have a strong super strong opinion [TS]

  but I'm just suggesting [TS]

  that now the politics has moved from you [TS]

  know Superfund sites two stages and the [TS]

  people who want to throw themselves upon [TS]

  the gears and levers are by the are [TS]

  taking sent a similar role to what [TS]

  people would have done to protest in a [TS]

  different time whether I agree with them [TS]

  or not they feel so strongly about this [TS]

  that they can't allow this to go on [TS]

  interrupted yeah is I mean I guess what [TS]

  I mean there's not really a question [TS]

  there do you see any analog between what [TS]

  people were doing in previous [TS]

  generations to whether that's the lights [TS]

  you know attacking mechanical devices or [TS]

  whether that's people saying you know [TS]

  I'm gonna sit at this lunch counter do [TS]

  you see if you don't you see that as [TS]

  part of some extension of a protest to [TS]

  say I'm just doing it in a different [TS]

  place now I well I mean I i see exactly [TS]

  the point you're making [TS]

  and I wonder and i think it's i think [TS]

  it's related to the fact that right now [TS]

  it's very clear to members of our [TS]

  community though the left-right that [TS]

  we're living in a world in which blacks [TS]

  and Hispanics and women and transgender [TS]

  people are being oppressed by a white [TS]

  patriarchal of like uber culture and [TS]

  when you listen to the Trump supporters [TS]

  they are equally convinced that white [TS]

  Christian America is being violently [TS]

  oppressed by the like Mochaccino [TS]

  coalition of liberal intellectual media [TS]

  Hollywood well yeah that's that that's [TS]

  the tease out is it sits cysts they see [TS]

  that as systemic oppression [TS]

  yeah but that we are that the left is [TS]

  the is the majority is them is the mega [TS]

  culture and that they're that the white [TS]

  Christian America is is increasingly [TS]

  like [TS]

  being violently suppressed and when you [TS]

  start to listen to everyone's story now [TS]

  in the u.s. he realized that every [TS]

  single person every single political [TS]

  group every every entity has a narrative [TS]

  in which they are being victimized and [TS]

  oppressed by a majority out and and it [TS]

  leaves me with the feeling that not [TS]

  every single person is not every group [TS]

  of people in America can be [TS]

  simultaneously oppressed by a by a [TS]

  majority but that is the that is the [TS]

  current it's not it's not just a [TS]

  vocabulary and it's not an expedient [TS]

  political system it's a it's heartfelt [TS]

  belief and from our side [TS]

  it's very clear it in the minutiae right [TS]

  in each individual case of police [TS]

  brutality or of all the injustice 'as a [TS]

  rape culture and cetera [TS]

  each one of those things in its [TS]

  specificity it's very clear who the [TS]

  oppressor is and what our job as the [TS]

  oppressed or representatives of the [TS]

  oppressed or allies of the oppressed [TS]

  like where where our work should be [TS]

  where to focus our efforts right but you [TS]

  listen to the other side of the aisle [TS]

  and in the specificity of their [TS]

  oppression there's just exactly the same [TS]

  conviction that in this instance and in [TS]

  that instance and in that instance the [TS]

  oppression is so clear and so dramatic [TS]

  and so threatening and they are also [TS]

  stringing together a narrative extremely [TS]

  compelling to themselves that those that [TS]

  the specificity of those things [TS]

  spells a you know a widespread culture [TS]

  of intolerance that's coming from the [TS]

  other side of the aisle and so although [TS]

  I absolutely see like the analogy you're [TS]

  making to the anti-war movement with the [TS]

  civil rights movement where people are [TS]

  our see an injustice and are trying to [TS]

  change themselves to to the gates of the [TS]

  weapons plant that is there percent i [TS]

  think that is absolutely people's [TS]

  perception of their of the work that [TS]

  they're doing but it's happening it's [TS]

  more and more granular all the time [TS]

  until you meet people who use who are [TS]

  also i mean like again not to not to [TS]

  just keep dumping on this this one [TS]

  individual but she was a white woman at [TS]

  a at a conference you had to apply to [TS]

  attend that cost a lot of money to [TS]

  attend but she was perceiving herself [TS]

  not only as a victim but also as a [TS]

  defender of other people that she was [TS]

  imposing victimhood on you get the sense [TS]

  that this is happening is the way you're [TS]

  describing this kind of sounds like it's [TS]

  blanket party on John you get the [TS]

  feeling this person was there to do [TS]

  other things of this sort with different [TS]

  ideas and causes or do you think she [TS]

  just was specifically wanted to take you [TS]

  out [TS]

  I I mean who knows I'm it's not like I [TS]

  went and read her Twitter feed but her [TS]

  her comments to me in both instances [TS]

  were um you know like presupposed a [TS]

  truth that didn't exist like she was [TS]

  judging me based on my appearance and [TS]

  presumed from my appearance and my [TS]

  position at the festival that I was all [TS]

  these things that she was against her [TS]

  and she came into the festival already [TS]

  against those things and found a way [TS]

  that we found a way to it to fit my [TS]

  behavior however little it resembled [TS]

  what she thought it was you know into [TS]

  into that matrix [TS]

  but I see it at in trying to make sense [TS]

  in trying to parse our our our current [TS]

  political situation like I hear that [TS]

  same kind of like confidence indignation [TS]

  from people that I disagree with it [TS]

  totally and I'm talking about people [TS]

  that think that the that the white race [TS]

  is under attack but the tone and the and [TS]

  the victimhood is like a note for knows [TS]

  coming from the same emotional place and [TS]

  that's why I feel like this is a this is [TS]

  a transitional moment right we cannot [TS]

  continue along a path where we each [TS]

  individually become more and more [TS]

  convinced that we are being sailed by at [TS]

  you know by every other group of [TS]

  stakeholders you know that we it's not [TS]

  sustainable [TS]

  it's a it's a moment and eventually [TS]

  people are going to have to start and [TS]

  this is part of I think acknowledging [TS]

  your privilege which is that each [TS]

  individual group is going to have to [TS]

  start acknowledging their own power and [TS]

  acknowledging it in its appropriate [TS]

  context and saying you know like I am [TS]

  NOT a victim I am empowered there are [TS]

  challenges i still feel disenfranchised [TS]

  but that dissing front that but that [TS]

  disenfranchisement I feel in this area [TS]

  is not like a is not a massive [TS]

  conspiracy to disenfranchise me it is [TS]

  simply that I'm encountering people that [TS]

  disagree or that you know that my power [TS]

  is truncated in this way and in that or [TS]

  was historically but actually I do have [TS]

  a lot of power now i am a you know I'm a [TS]

  middle-class university student or I am [TS]

  a you know I'm a successful business [TS]

  person or I am i I'm just a blogger but [TS]

  my voice is heard in a way that that in [TS]

  the past [TS]

  no one of my stature could have been [TS]

  heard [TS]

  and-and-and that that's the next level [TS]

  of examining privilege [TS]

  well yeah that or acknowledging its not [TS]

  just examining it's like it's like [TS]

  nobody I mean acknowledging part is huge [TS]

  but I mean that's and I think it's [TS]

  actually super instructive it's been [TS]

  really it's been a good tonic for me as [TS]

  much as I push back initially it's been [TS]

  a good tonic for me as a human being but [TS]

  i wanna just say one thing here on from [TS]

  admittedly admittedly from a remove [TS]

  because i'm not super involved in this [TS]

  conversation but i think it's been it's [TS]

  been very interesting to remove watch [TS]

  the evolution discussion about feminism [TS]

  which started out for a long time is [TS]

  mostly white women and their allies and [TS]

  over time there's a different strain [TS]

  that developed of white people black [TS]

  feminism and a very very different [TS]

  strain of latina feminism and a real [TS]

  different approach for that and like do [TS]

  you want to be [TS]

  how is this inclusive is this the angle [TS]

  you know that's just the whole idea that [TS]

  feminism is not some spray on approach [TS]

  to quality but it's actually [TS]

  fundamentally different way of thinking [TS]

  about the world an idea that has the [TS]

  biggest people are still getting their [TS]

  head around i remember you know the [TS]

  gender studies class i had college first [TS]

  being presented with that idea at the [TS]

  age of about twenty be pretty blown away [TS]

  because i always thought oh blah pra [TS]

  that's just that's so silly like we know [TS]

  how do we need to do this just that idea [TS]

  that fits that I mean and how I just I [TS]

  I'm very intrigued by that idea that [TS]

  even white women in that instance are [TS]

  going to have to look at a lot of [TS]

  unexamined hot precepts about what they [TS]

  believe and historically have existed a [TS]

  certain way in order not simply to [TS]

  accommodate other people but to truly [TS]

  understand that for me to really [TS]

  understand the nature of this thing [TS]

  we're mostly my kind of voice of has had [TS]

  privacy it's really important for me to [TS]

  open my idea of what this thing is and [TS]

  that means sitting listening to other [TS]

  people who historically have been out [TS]

  there saying i wanted i wanna defend and [TS]

  I want to support whose position i [TS]

  assume i'm taking care of and then they [TS]

  come up and a lot of you know black [TS]

  ladies come up and go you know what [TS]

  actually we would do this a real [TS]

  different way [TS]

  Latina ladies come up and say you know [TS]

  what we would do this a real different [TS]

  way [TS]

  that's AII that's something where every [TS]

  time i hear about that I'm really [TS]

  intrigued and it's not a snarky way at [TS]

  all [TS]

  it's another way of saying like you know [TS]

  when we talk about if there's anything [TS]

  any part of this [TS]

  well the most important part of is a [TS]

  white guys learn to suck it up and [TS]

  realize that we're not the king of [TS]

  everything left side that I really feel [TS]

  that way but the second part of it is [TS]

  what you're describing that's where the [TS]

  guys you need to learn this more than [TS]

  anybody else but it doesn't stop there [TS]

  by any stretch and I think if there's [TS]

  anything that's a little bit damaging [TS]

  and destructive it's to sit on a perch [TS]

  and feel like we finally understood how [TS]

  a situation works it's the softness and [TS]

  openness to understanding how other [TS]

  people have a point of view about these [TS]

  things that that helps these ideas [TS]

  become something more than just this [TS]

  this striding political position it [TS]

  becomes a way of what's up as you say [TS]

  about technology it's a way of [TS]

  understanding the world in a way that is [TS]

  really illuminating yeah and connect can [TS]

  be can be a wonderful thing so I'm not [TS]

  trying to pass off the hole where you go [TS]

  prove which 2i got the most boy believe [TS]

  me I i I'm getting that but it is it is [TS]

  intriguing to watch and you know and [TS]

  then to see how that will evolve [TS]

  where is it you know it's we think about [TS]

  that d punching up and punching down and [TS]

  you know at what point is interrupting [TS]

  that show not punching up you know what [TS]

  I mean I'm absolutely and I think I [TS]

  think to your point like there is still [TS]

  a tremendous energy within white [TS]

  feminists that fails to I mean that's [TS]

  very defensive when confronted by [TS]

  feminists of color right like that like [TS]

  like that is that kind of the tension [TS]

  within feminism is fascinating to watch [TS]

  but like the the approach right in this [TS]

  cultural moment of acknowledging [TS]

  privilege and being and in a way being [TS]

  ashamed of that that first moment of [TS]

  like oh my god i didn't know how much [TS]

  privilege i had [TS]

  and I'm ashamed that i was operating in [TS]

  the world thinking that I was thinking [TS]

  that I have the same challenges that [TS]

  everybody else did [TS]

  when in fact i had quite a few [TS]

  advantages that it just never occurred [TS]

  to me i had um and that that idea of it [TS]

  of saying wow I have a lot of advantages [TS]

  that I wasn't aware of and that and [TS]

  taking away the the element of of um [TS]

  really of shame about it but also of [TS]

  saying like that i mean each individual [TS]

  person has advantages even out of a [TS]

  cultural context that that we weren't [TS]

  taught to think that any of us really to [TS]

  wake up in the morning and count our [TS]

  advantages and and acknowledge like [TS]

  gracefully and with humility that not [TS]

  everybody has those advantages and those [TS]

  aren't limited to advantages of gender [TS]

  or race and that is a very I think up [TS]

  its on the path to a very much more [TS]

  spiritual culture at and right now we're [TS]

  in a in this moment where a lot of our [TS]

  intellectual capital is being kind of [TS]

  expended both sort of pillorying other [TS]

  people for privileged that they aren't [TS]

  acknowledging and ourselves for [TS]

  privileged that in a lot of cases we [TS]

  having been made aware of it [TS]

  we're now trying to address at all times [TS]

  right or or to the best of our ability [TS]

  but you can't you can't seed power right [TS]

  and you know where you have to you have [TS]

  to take power and that's Machiavelli but [TS]

  it is an untrue right power that's given [TS]

  to you by somebody else is power that [TS]

  they still hold and if if it's being [TS]

  granted to you it doesn't belong to you [TS]

  power is something that he sees and and [TS]

  hold and that's both individually and [TS]

  Colt and you know in cultures but the [TS]

  next step for us all [TS]

  i think is to say you know what I mean [TS]

  it's we look over at the white [TS]

  Christians and say you guys are you guys [TS]

  have all the advantages right you're [TS]

  them your ostensibly the majority and [TS]

  all these oil workers down in Louisiana [TS]

  who are living on food stamps are like [TS]

  what the fuck are you talking about [TS]

  we feel a sale that every at every level [TS]

  and part of our part of our [TS]

  acknowledgement of our privilege is also [TS]

  to sort of it like acknowledge their [TS]

  lack of it and and that isn't confined [TS]

  right i mean every day now I wake up and [TS]

  not only reflect on my own privilege but [TS]

  reflect on the many many ways that every [TS]

  person even even the richest guy in [TS]

  Seattle wakes up and feels under assault [TS]

  somehow like nobody had a nobody had a [TS]

  good day yesterday moving away right and [TS]

  we've talked about that quite a bit [TS]

  the the fact that bill gates's day [TS]

  yesterday was probably pretty hard and [TS]

  part of being human part of being a [TS]

  successful human is to accept that and [TS]

  and have sympathy for him to have sex [TS]

  and have sympathy for him to have sex [TS]

  empathy for everybody that you encounter [TS]

  and that's why you don't see shitty [TS]

  things to people on the internet it's [TS]

  why you don't it's why you're not a [TS]

  gamer Gator but it's also important to [TS]

  not wake up in a in like a a feeling of [TS]

  of like hyper righteous liberal [TS]

  superiority because everybody's having a [TS]

  bad time but you know there's another [TS]

  part of this state's I that's really [TS]

  complicated i wish i could talk about [TS]

  this at a time other than we just talked [TS]

  about a lot of political and cultural [TS]

  things but there's another part of this [TS]

  which is that they're there is [TS]

  regardless of the side that you're on I [TS]

  do feel like there's a very strong [TS]

  culture of telling people what they're [TS]

  doing wrong [TS]

  these days to sort of your favorite [TS]

  topic for so long it is really like to [TS]

  say you know what the internet is [TS]

  constantly telling you that you're [TS]

  enjoying life wrong but here's the [TS]

  problem [TS]

  so they're doing the internet wrong yeah [TS]

  but like it's in this i'm trying to make [TS]

  a slight bridge to the personal which is [TS]

  an impossible bridge to make because the [TS]

  person has become very political [TS]

  so in a if if we could just play along [TS]

  with me for a minute that we have [TS]

  developed into a more gotcha culture of [TS]

  trying to find what somebody's doing [TS]

  wrong [TS]

  the one downside of that is that the [TS]

  stakes for changing have become a lot [TS]

  higher and there is less and less [TS]

  incentive to want to fix something about [TS]

  yourself if it makes it look like you're [TS]

  a flip-flopper or being disloyal or your [TS]

  capitulating and and so while I [TS]

  understand the need for stridency and [TS]

  lots of things on a personal basis the [TS]

  part that I struggle with is and I you [TS]

  know I'm not trying to tell anybody to [TS]

  do it differently [TS]

  I'm just I'm just this is just a [TS]

  personal feeling is that it is it is [TS]

  difficult when you do feel like you're [TS]

  doing what you can in whatever way and [TS]

  it's understandably not always going to [TS]

  be it's never going to be enough for [TS]

  some folks but i guess the thing that [TS]

  I'd love to see it evolve toward is [TS]

  where a conversation about something [TS]

  like privilege goes from being the [TS]

  opportunity where you admit that you're [TS]

  wrong about everything to chance for [TS]

  personal growth and the chance for [TS]

  personal growth requires that you allow [TS]

  yourself to become kind of vulnerable [TS]

  even publicly vulnerable and I think the [TS]

  risk to go straight back to talk in [TS]

  front of a crowd i think the risk of [TS]

  being publicly vulnerable is really [TS]

  tough for a lot of people on every side [TS]

  of every aisle and the more the more [TS]

  pitched these things become and the [TS]

  higher the stakes it feels like you are [TS]

  giving a part of yourself away [TS]

  personally by admitting there's anything [TS]

  that you could do better and I i know [TS]

  that that is a second or third stage for [TS]

  for a lot of kinds of changing growth to [TS]

  get to that point that there has to be [TS]

  this certain kind of you know nearly [TS]

  violent political confrontation to make [TS]

  things happen but like I'm looking [TS]

  forward to the point where it will be [TS]

  okay to admit that you have feelings one [TS]

  way or another and have a conversation [TS]

  about that and that not go straight to [TS]

  the political had that nut goes straight [TS]

  to the like here's the highlight reel of [TS]

  how this person is a garbage person [TS]

  because they changed their mind about [TS]

  something on either or any side and as [TS]

  you know as long as it's this difficult [TS]

  to talk about something and have it be [TS]

  an idea that you try on like a suit as [TS]

  you like to say as long as that has such [TS]

  potential Giants takes to it it's hard [TS]

  for anybody to talk honestly and for [TS]

  anything in any side to go you know what [TS]

  I got that part wrong even if you're the [TS]

  person who's trying to castigate [TS]

  somebody on the other side was doing it [TS]

  wrong you know if you were wrong about [TS]

  them doing it wrong [TS]

  are you gonna admit that you doing that [TS]

  no because you're just as invested in [TS]

  that as the other person has now doubled [TS]

  down on their investment in that thing [TS]

  and that doesn't get us anywhere because [TS]

  that's then that's why this election [TS]

  year is partly why it's so disgusting [TS]

  and hard to watch [TS]

  it's nuts we all just dug in further and [TS]

  further and further and nobody's allowed [TS]

  to be a little bit broken for a while in [TS]

  the service of becoming fixed the reason [TS]

  i feel that this is a that this is a a [TS]

  momentary space is that in a lot of [TS]

  things like this I always sort of asked [TS]

  what's the what's your endgame like in [TS]

  calling attention to people's privilege [TS]

  what is the end game and I'm talking [TS]

  about you know looking out into the [TS]

  future [TS]

  it can operate within a space where if [TS]

  you examine the endgame it is to create [TS]

  a world in which there is no privilege [TS]

  like no advantage no group of people has [TS]

  an advantage over any other group of [TS]

  people like that is one potential look [TS]

  at calling out privilege because if we [TS]

  call it out we can redress the the [TS]

  systemic institutional ways in which [TS]

  certain groups of people are privileged [TS]

  over others but of course you get into a [TS]

  you get immediately into a situation [TS]

  where what is it and what way does sort [TS]

  of like talent factor into that right [TS]

  like obviously there are privileges that [TS]

  what we're right now at a place where [TS]

  we're addressing massives privileges of [TS]

  massive scale and event of great [TS]

  historical portent historical portent [TS]

  that have created like a massive scale [TS]

  of privilege but it's very easy within [TS]

  that overarching like rubric to in on a [TS]

  personal level be attacking people for [TS]

  like privileges that are that are much [TS]

  more personal [TS]

  you know like um for instance of my [TS]

  ability to get up on stage and [TS]

  extemporize you can critique that as [TS]

  purely the results of the fact that I'm [TS]

  a white male but from with from my world [TS]

  of feelings [TS]

  it feels like that ability is a talent [TS]

  like being able to run a four-minute [TS]

  mile I'm gifted with it and it isn't [TS]

  like at anybody that's raised a child [TS]

  recognizes that you can do a lot you can [TS]

  do a lot of work to try to correct what [TS]

  you perceive to be the cultural tell you [TS]

  know tentacles that are part of a [TS]

  child's upbringing but you also see that [TS]

  a child at six months old already is [TS]

  exhibiting personality and talent and [TS]

  and [TS]

  and predilection that no one had [TS]

  anything to do with right it wasn't [TS]

  cultural it was just a mate in them [TS]

  operatory and my ability to stand up and [TS]

  and confidently take charge of a room [TS]

  was the thing that was in me when I was [TS]

  six months old right but it's but I'm [TS]

  vulnerable to being critiqued as purely [TS]

  a product of the soul of a social [TS]

  construct and for me when I think about [TS]

  the conversation about privilege I think [TS]

  of a potential endgame being that [TS]

  through the different groups of people [TS]

  through the different the different [TS]

  actors both like macro actors and micro [TS]

  actors we're able to say here are our [TS]

  talents here are the things that my [TS]

  group is good at here are the here are [TS]

  the privileges that we are capable of [TS]

  bringing to bear to collectively solve [TS]

  problems better like if there is a group [TS]

  of people that is you know that because [TS]

  of cultural or economic or a or innate [TS]

  like both skills talents and also [TS]

  culturally just like yes I'm i was [TS]

  raised with a silver spoon in my mouth [TS]

  and therefore i have this agency in the [TS]

  world i have this ability that [TS]

  ultimately the goal is to to learn [TS]

  together to not be greedy and to enact [TS]

  that privilege on behalf of others or to [TS]

  you know like the goal can if we start [TS]

  to think that the goal is to level all [TS]

  privileged then that's a political [TS]

  movement that we also need to call out [TS]

  you know that's not that isn't benign [TS]

  necessarily or study hall in Dianna moon [TS]

  glampers handicapper general right we [TS]

  haven't dividers and Bergeron this [TS]

  entire time [TS]

  well I have an email here I want to read [TS]

  oh dear i got an ad in here somewhere [TS]

  after this episode of rock on the line [TS]

  is brought to you by braintree code for [TS]

  easy online payments you can learn more [TS]

  about brings you right now by visiting [TS]

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  braintree will support that too that's [TS]

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  braintree payments dot-com / supertrain [TS]

  our thanks to braintree for taking the [TS]

  pain out of online payments and for [TS]

  supporting Roderick on the line five [TS]

  professional podcasting let me read this [TS]

  email was gonna read an email em I'm [TS]

  gonna I'm gonna read act some of the [TS]

  this is completely off the topic of what [TS]

  we've been talking about thank you [TS]

  this is something completely else I'm [TS]

  going to redact some other some of the [TS]

  names [TS]

  this is an invitation that has been [TS]

  tendered to me OK by a firm [TS]

  which I think use it's one of those [TS]

  firms that maybe calls itself a design [TS]

  firm but feels like an advertising push [TS]

  on the board [TS]

  do you know do you know what no they're [TS]

  a bit if this was a letter about putting [TS]

  me on the board i would have led with [TS]

  this I wouldn't have buried this lead [TS]

  this is a i-don't-know-what design firms [TS]

  do frankly and out is differentiated [TS]

  from advertising haha you kidding me [TS]

  here here being serious [TS]

  here's the letter alright okay they're [TS]

  inviting me to a design gathering it is [TS]

  i'm reading letter it is comma a few [TS]

  days to get away to somewhere else and [TS]

  be more and different this is addressed [TS]

  to me personally that isn't boy lovely [TS]

  know here's a link to a video that gives [TS]

  you a little taste but promise no trust [TS]

  circles but there is a talent show or [TS]

  maybe called a no talent show more aptly [TS]

  where everyone gets up on stage and does [TS]

  stuff where others feel embarrassed for [TS]

  them otherwise we tackle a problem [TS]

  social community creative her where we [TS]

  use our creative brains in a different [TS]

  way we want to invite you up to this [TS]

  resort where you can see the stars and [TS]

  hear nothing [TS]

  we have a musical performer join us to [TS]

  tell us their story their passion look [TS]

  at it as storytelling accompanied by [TS]

  songs please bring your family and hang [TS]

  out with us observe participate or just [TS]

  explore the area one night you're [TS]

  invited [TS]

  and so I wrote back and said hey can you [TS]

  clarify sounds like you want me to [TS]

  perform is this a pain take it or is [TS]

  this because it's weird because it's [TS]

  almost like the way just before we got [TS]

  want to know this but before we get to [TS]

  that it sounds more like this is someone [TS]

  you know very well that's essentially [TS]

  inviting you to like their summerhouse [TS]

  for a nice conversation [TS]

  no this is a person whose title is chief [TS]

  creative officer right and I've never [TS]

  heard of this but you get what I mean [TS]

  that's what the tone of that was hey [TS]

  here's something you're going to find [TS]

  empirically interesting you're going to [TS]

  hear a bunch of people talk and then the [TS]

  talent show ya talkin and you're welcome [TS]

  to bring your family would be a great [TS]

  getaway for you that's a nice offer and [TS]

  i said uh is a pig or is this an [TS]

  experience [TS]

  thanks for thinking of me ! John and the [TS]

  reply is its kind of all of the above [TS]

  that's not acoustic storytelling small [TS]

  stipend with a family getaway [TS]

  oh i see you're so lucky right you get [TS]

  to go out and play your music [TS]

  yeah and so I wrote back and said well [TS]

  it does sound very much like I am being [TS]

  asked to perform a show because I'm not [TS]

  just a guitar strum er I'm also a [TS]

  storyteller so to say like play a few [TS]

  songs tell some stories like the one [TS]

  thing doesn't mitigate the other right [TS]

  like the storytelling isn't something [TS]

  that casual of fires the guitar player [TS]

  it's all about the framing the way [TS]

  they're framing it is this they're [TS]

  trying to frame this in a very specific [TS]

  way [TS]

  yeah come on out detective frame it as [TS]

  you are very fortunate to be invited to [TS]

  this particular teddy bear picnic and [TS]

  you know on top of it all dude it's [TS]

  gonna it's an experience and you can [TS]

  bring your family owned part [TS]

  we're gonna give you money too can you [TS]

  believe it a little bit you know some [TS]

  gas money to get up there [TS]

  bring your family because you know [TS]

  that's how generous we are ya now I went [TS]

  online and I looked at this firm they [TS]

  have like 40 plus employees and this is [TS]

  a big resort somewhere up in the [TS]

  mountains that they're taking over for [TS]

  this event and you know when you just [TS]

  look at the people on that they [TS]

  everybody's kind of a chief something [TS]

  officer who's like 40 people and they [TS]

  all have you know Chief development [TS]

  somebody but they did just really gets [TS]

  them you get the impression that the [TS]

  that the lowest-paid person at this [TS]

  place works amazing makes eighty-five [TS]

  thousand dollars here [TS]

  yeah and it goes up from there right the [TS]

  chief creative officer whoever this guy [TS]

  is obviously is making a $250,000 here [TS]

  and I haven't heard back with the small [TS]

  stipend is but i'm guessing two hundred [TS]

  fifty dollars uh-huh right isn't that in [TS]

  about the small stipend area i said [TS]

  small stipend is definitely a thousand [TS]

  dollars [TS]

  yeah well i think a lot a lot under yeah [TS]

  and so you have a stipend or an [TS]

  honorarium you think I think I'd rather [TS]

  than honorarium says a lot that's a very [TS]

  lieutenant-colonel kind of thing to get [TS]

  a stipend is like this will let you get [TS]

  some bottled water there are some [TS]

  vending machines [TS]

  here's a little stipend it's like it's [TS]

  like a per deem uh-huh but so I ran this [TS]

  email by all the other podcasters at the [TS]

  festival who are all people that get [TS]

  asked to give this kind of speech or [TS]

  this kind of thing was like hey come on [TS]

  out yeah to our event you'll have an [TS]

  uncomfortable bed in a weird room we get [TS]

  it you'll be basically onstage the [TS]

  entire time because everybody else at [TS]

  this event works together and they're [TS]

  all bored of each other and we're [TS]

  inviting you because you're you know [TS]

  like cause everybody knows you and your [TS]

  top of the list of people to invite and [TS]

  so from the moment you wake up in the [TS]

  morning you're going to be performing [TS]

  and then you're going to put on a show [TS]

  for us and a and it's going to be great [TS]

  and then we're all going to sit around [TS]

  and I know you don't drink so you know [TS]

  there will be some Martinelli's apple [TS]

  juice there for you [TS]

  well we all get drunk around the [TS]

  campfire yeah it's going to be amazing [TS]

  he performed campfire sucks for ya and [TS]

  then you play the game and then you just [TS]

  bring it out because of course you want [TS]

  to bring in the guitar out with you and [TS]

  if you say no everybody's gonna go all [TS]

  so you're you know absolutely going to [TS]

  bring the guitar out there and then [TS]

  hopefully someone else will also play [TS]

  the guitar and we'll get drunk enough [TS]

  that you can have them the guitar and [TS]

  like a knife like they are you a little [TS]

  bit here course where is it [TS]

  if I could ask just what state in [TS]

  Washington State up in the mountains [TS]

  where is it like a hour or less away [TS]

  let's call it an hour and a half ok so [TS]

  two hours big part there there's not [TS]

  extensive travel involved right [TS]

  um well that who I don't know when [TS]

  people ask me things like that at the [TS]

  hell i wean myself off this but i will [TS]

  be candid with you John [TS]

  there was a time when somebody ask me [TS]

  something like that i would say to them [TS]

  would you do this for the same amount of [TS]

  money and if they said yes I absolutely [TS]

  would I said well that's even worse [TS]

  yeah because you really don't value your [TS]

  time you must not realize how much money [TS]

  you should be making out what you're [TS]

  doing if you would do that [TS]

  so now you're dealing and your little [TS]

  dishonest you're dishonest would you go [TS]

  and do your job here when you maybe [TS]

  that's a thing for a while there was the [TS]

  whole like I'm gonna go to a conference [TS]

  guy thing like I just go and I give [TS]

  talks about deep doop doop doop but man [TS]

  that's still that still gets my dander [TS]

  up why don't we have a conversation like [TS]

  adults about this if you want to hire me [TS]

  like what we have that discussion but [TS]

  the fact that you keep bringing it back [TS]

  to the campfire spaghetti party we're [TS]

  going to have forget it [TS]

  yeah so and so i have so i have so what [TS]

  was the response of the others [TS]

  I don't ask the podcasters everybody [TS]

  rolled their eyes because everybody gets [TS]

  you mean we've all this is not a new [TS]

  conversation will talk about this all [TS]

  the time all the hilarious letters we [TS]

  get asking us to perform for free [TS]

  and uh oh and often a thing like this [TS]

  where it's a you know this is a design [TS]

  firm that is they're going to pay [TS]

  twenty-five thousand dollars for a food [TS]

  and sundries this event right answer is [TS]

  an internal event i think it is [TS]

  yeah i think if I loved about that's the [TS]

  other part to ask is how much are you [TS]

  charging anything for people to come to [TS]

  this [TS]

  no i think it's i think it's just a a [TS]

  getaway for staff such as the first [TS]

  design people to go in and we'll walk [TS]

  with Wolves [TS]

  yeah and just you know and that's the [TS]

  thing we're just gonna talk we're gonna [TS]

  share creative sup second hang out and [TS]

  shit man and the and the shell real [TS]

  chill the presumption that I'm gonna get [TS]

  as much out of talking to these people [TS]

  i I'm gonna get as much out of [TS]

  spitballing with them about creative [TS]

  stuff as they're going to get out [TS]

  spitballing that stuff with me right i [TS]

  mean i went to it did I went to an [TS]

  advertising agency at one point not very [TS]

  long ago that was owned by some some [TS]

  friends and they said hey what if we [TS]

  just gave you a desk here and i said [TS]

  this was a big firm and I said an odd [TS]

  thing to say I said how do you mean they [TS]

  were like we'll just give you like a [TS]

  desk up here at the executive level on [TS]

  which is a separate floor and your [TS]

  includes can hang out and do whatever [TS]

  yeah and you can come and just use the [TS]

  space and just be around and hang out [TS]

  and I was like and I mean what goes [TS]

  along with the desk card are you [TS]

  offering me like a job [TS]

  Wow now I mean it's more like just here [TS]

  so we have extra space you come and I [TS]

  was like I come and we sit around with [TS]

  our wheelchairs wheeling around throwing [TS]

  pencils at the ceiling and then that [TS]

  turns into a big ad campaign for you [TS]

  guys and I'm and I lucked out in having [TS]

  a desk that's a different than your you [TS]

  know like critique of the privilege [TS]

  thing so if this goes really well if you [TS]

  just give me a desk or whatever [TS]

  yeah we'll know that that has turned out [TS]

  great in a year because what happened [TS]

  well and the thing is every time I went [TS]

  by there they would walk me through [TS]

  their latest campaigns and be like what [TS]

  you think of that and i would say well [TS]

  that word right there is a little corny [TS]

  or did you ever consider this or that [TS]

  maybe like nice so yeah there's a reason [TS]

  they want me there to give that give me [TS]

  a free desk but because we're all [TS]

  creatives it just seems like let's just [TS]

  get in the creative space and just [TS]

  create drama can and so that's the you [TS]

  know like I'm going to go up to this [TS]

  mountain event and we're going to just [TS]

  brainstorm with each other about some [TS]

  creative shit you know would help me is [TS]

  that i SAT with the with my guitar in a [TS]

  room and wrote some songs like that's [TS]

  what I am a part of the whole point of [TS]

  this man is getting away from the money [TS]

  chive that are the point man we gotta [TS]

  get off campus just like fucking just [TS]

  freaked out a little man just freaked [TS]

  out so David Reed david reese said i [TS]

  would ask for ten thousand dollars and [TS]

  settle for 75 did he sing it [TS]

  he didn't look with six i would ask four [TS]

  thousand dollars beep boop boop and I [TS]

  was like you know the tent the the [TS]

  $10,000 is definitely that that's the [TS]

  line where you are saying go fuck [TS]

  yourself unless you come back and say oh [TS]

  you have now made us realize what this [TS]

  actually is [TS]

  you're the asshole you got invited to [TS]

  Thanksgiving dinner and you want to give [TS]

  them a fucking invoice yeah what a dick [TS]

  that's right I'm i was allowed to bring [TS]

  my family all my god that they even said [TS]

  you could bring your family we could all [TS]

  stay in one in one room [TS]

  this week's winner is basically a free [TS]

  vacation John it's a prevarication and I [TS]

  think and I think what you know i mean [TS]

  in my I would never write this in an [TS]

  email to them but you know what i would [TS]

  what I would say if one of them were [TS]

  listening to podcasts [TS]

  is it i like to choose my own vacation [TS]

  yeah it's funny how that works yeah I [TS]

  can I'm perfectly capable of of finding [TS]

  a way to vacation with my family I don't [TS]

  need that opportunity in lieu of money [TS]

  but it's it's strange when you get it [TS]

  and it can this came through this didn't [TS]

  come directly from the chief creative [TS]

  officer he knows a friend of mine who's [TS]

  in the in the show business and sent it [TS]

  to her and she sent it to me with her [TS]

  own little like this sounds like if I [TS]

  did I don't know if this is up your [TS]

  alley but this sounds like a fun [TS]

  opportunity right and so I'm not [TS]

  replying to him i'm replying to her and [TS]

  so I have now the potential to alienate [TS]

  not just the guy but my friend because [TS]

  he sent it to her like hey can you use [TS]

  your God can you use your magic to God [TS]

  rates not a public library you know the [TS]

  thing is shame on them if you're you [TS]

  know if you're a public library if your [TS]

  macintosh user group like if your st. [TS]

  Jude's you know you could write to John [TS]

  Rother can say hey look what you want to [TS]

  come here and play some music [TS]

  we have any money but we'd love for you [TS]

  to come yeah or you could say you know [TS]

  basically pay for flight that's I don't [TS]

  mind that i don't mind getting that from [TS]

  somebody that admits that this is what [TS]

  this is this is this what I don't like [TS]

  is being made to feel like a turd [TS]

  because you're trying to do a business [TS]

  negotiation as though you're my [TS]

  brother-in-law that's such fucking weak [TS]

  sauce [TS]

  well and that's the creative and threw [TS]

  it through somebody else they've got an [TS]

  inner interlocutor here who's now she's [TS]

  put her up on the line [TS]

  well and lamps if i write back and go [TS]

  haha this sounds like a gig at you know [TS]

  like she then then that's in our [TS]

  relationship [TS]

  yep that now she's like um well okay I [TS]

  guess [TS]

  sorry sorry I gave you this sorry I [TS]

  forward this to you [TS]

  it's like will i'm not mad at you i'm [TS]

  just like like you and I should be on [TS]

  the same page here like my eating a hate [TS]

  being put in that position I really i [TS]

  have come to resent the whole like can [TS]

  you contact this person for me then [TS]

  no offense but that whole idea of like [TS]

  we're basically vouch for me a near [TS]

  stranger to like taking the two times [TS]

  your you communicate with this person is [TS]

  kind of famous will you use one of those [TS]

  two times to basically vouch for me even [TS]

  though you hardly know me at all of [TS]

  course i would i'm not an animal [TS]

  yeah so gross well so anyway and I that [TS]

  sounds well just sitting here talking [TS]

  I you know I right now there's an email [TS]

  pendant ok i sent i sent an email saying [TS]

  yeah the more i read this the more it [TS]

  sounds like they want me to perform well [TS]

  which is a thing which is what i do [TS]

  professionally [TS]

  yeah the storytelling is actually also [TS]

  my job that's not a that's not [TS]

  professionals not friends sessional yeah [TS]

  that's not a fun thing that I'm gonna [TS]

  just like hey here's an idea that we had [TS]

  have you ever considered telling stories [TS]

  in between your song we think you'd be [TS]

  great at that man perfect said she can [TS]

  you bring your family i have thought of [TS]

  that [TS]

  so I said that back to her now I she has [TS]

  not replied and maybe her lack of reply [TS]

  is you know is an email she sent back to [TS]

  him saying actually this doesn't seem [TS]

  like it's going to work or maybe she's [TS]

  sitting in her office like I'm too busy [TS]

  to deal with this shit how did I get [TS]

  stuck in between this but some of that [TS]

  is rubbing off on me right she's now got [TS]

  a she's she's got a feeling like I'm too [TS]

  busy to deal with this roderick should [TS]

  have just said yes or he should have [TS]

  just said let me deal with this but he [TS]

  replied to me instead of to them because [TS]

  i sent it to him instead of giving his [TS]

  email to them i don't know you know what [TS]

  I mean like they're I do i do it sits [TS]

  awkwardness all the way down and if she [TS]

  doesn't reply [TS]

  problem solved if she replies and says [TS]

  this isn't i mean i should i should get [TS]

  out of this or you know if you don't [TS]

  want to do it reply to them i'm gonna be [TS]

  like you I don't they never emailed me [TS]

  so but you know it's it and if they do [TS]

  i'm gonna say i would love to do this 10 [TS]

  grand seems fair [TS]

  beep boop that and then we'll see what [TS]

  they say no we were thinking two hundred [TS]

  fifty dollars [TS]

  oh well you don't really you don't value [TS]

  very highly me LOL [TS]

  rewrite this email for you uh we want [TS]

  you to stop everything that you're doing [TS]

  in your life to go beyond a place on the [TS]

  planet for the amount of time that we [TS]

  declare and we have almost no budget is [TS]

  that something you'd be super into yeah [TS]

  yeah when this is important this is the [TS]

  thing that we're doing because we're [TS]

  gonna deduct the whole thing because [TS]

  it's professional development for and [TS]

  and our staff like this does qualify as [TS]

  a perk for them because they work [TS]

  60-hour weeks and we're taking them up [TS]

  to a hotel for free that's nice so it [TS]

  seems I probably within within our [TS]

  company washroom like a real good deal [TS]

  ever thought about being a storyteller [TS]

  me [TS]

  mm give it some thought I'm not sure I'd [TS]

  be good at it huh [TS]

  what are you doing this weekend uh you [TS]

  know it's funny my weekend Cirque kind [TS]

  of full up looking forward to bring your [TS]

  guitar [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  holy shit i can feel like it's my god [TS]

  and my family [TS]

  what oh my god [TS]