The Talk Show

27: The Glass Something or Another, with Dave Pell


  you reminded me of my guest this week is

  Dave pal Dave reminded me of an email i

  said i sent you two years ago I i'm

  cracking up just thinking about it I i

  am not somebody who who usually

  remembers his dreams and I I'd I don't

  remember if I've ever even maybe once or

  twice on the history of the show I have

  I've recalled a dream that I had but I

  don't think about it i read the email i

  think you should i think it's going to

  be pretty clear to all your listeners

  that I'm sort of in your head so I was I

  was I had an upcoming trip to vegas for

  a quick weekend trip with my pals

  Michael oppan and some croutons I was

  really looking forward to it and and one

  day I woke up and I had this vivid dream

  here's the email I sent to you i wrote

  so I'm going to vegas next month for the

  weekend guys weekend with crude oil and

  Michael lob had a dream last night that

  it was that weekend and it was friday

  and i just got into town

  it was early afternoon and I hadn't met

  up with the other two guys yet decided

  to take a walk while waiting for them

  i'm on a side street off the strip and

  who do I run into but you Dave Pell and

  you tell me that you're on your way to

  your favorite casino the glass

  something-or-another that

  something-or-another is some foreign

  sounding like French word that I had

  never heard before and I tell you I've

  never even heard of the place and you

  tell me it's the best the entire

  building is made out of glass gorgeous

  you say I love Vegas but I go there all

  the time and the only place i'll step

  into is this glass whatever it's called

  so sure I say why not

  so we walk and you know it's a dream

  because who walks anywhere in Vegas you

  say the places over there by the Rio but

  closer to the strip and we're walking

  over that way sort of off the strip and

  we get there and the entire wat is just

  a hole in the ground desert all under

  construction and there's a sign that

  says that they're replacing at the glass

  whatever it's called with a new casino

  and you turn to me and say well let's

  find somewhere else and get a drink I

  tell you that sounds about right to me

  and then the dream cuts and immediately

  were inside some random generic

  stinky-ass old-school Vegas casino bar

  like the Riviera or the Sahara flamingo

  or one of those places that just looks

  like generic vegas casino that's been

  there forever and never changes and it's

  me and you having a drink and then the

  next thing is the dream immediately cuts

  to me waking up in the dream not waking

  up waking up on an airplane that is just

  landed in philadelphia my head hurts and

  I realized that my entire trip is over

  it's Sunday evening and i'm home and i

  don't call it god damn thing from the

  entire weekend after sitting down with

  you for that drink early Friday

  afternoon never checked into my hotel

  never once saw to my recollection cool

  orlop and I think to myself god damn it

  i thought this weekend was gonna be a

  lot of fun and I had stuff I wanted to

  talk to those guys about what did i do

  why does my head hurt

  those are the thoughts in my head so I

  got I got up and I wrote the email do

  yeah well it was all part of a strange

  plot by me I was upset at not being

  invited to the guy's trip to vegas i

  decided to enter to any way I could in

  this case i entered your mind through a

  dream but be more involved in sort of be

  one of the guys are one of the wolf pack

  as they say in the hangover I and then

  the in the end my plan was foiled

  because I ended up completely screwing

  up your trip anyway and i'll never get

  invited to your fault it really was that

  it is funny because I do have like this

  like vegas association in my head that

  Dave Pelz trouble events because of this

  dream and I don't think it's true at all

  i don't know i don't think it's trouble

  i'm not quite sure what happened like if

  in that if the dream is telling me that

  you like slip me a Mickey or something

  I very very unusual it is for a little

  bit adding more clarity i never really

  responded to original email but I i did

  wake up the next morning with a pretty

  nasty STD huh

  I have a little bit of follow-up hear

  from from previous episodes of the show

  and I keep forgetting to do this and I

  want to knock this out because i think i

  think that this is with the holidays

  coming up in whatever no promises i

  don't know but it might be this might be

  the last episode of the talk show for

  2012 and I feel like I don't know

  justjust in a way with your end lists

  and stuff like that if you have anything

  to follow up on now's the time to let's

  hit 2013 with it with an empty sleep so

  one of them i don't know how in the

  world i made this mistake is well couple

  weeks ago when Marilyn man was on the

  show I said that bourbon comes from

  tennis see in not Kentucky and of course

  that's exactly backwards and I knew that

  and I knew it even when I said it and I

  just didn't feel like correcting it

  bourbon comes from Kentucky and Jack

  Daniels comes from Tennessee and that's

  one of the reasons why Jack Daniels is

  not called bourbon seems like a very

  thick an awful awful mistake for me to

  make that my apologies to everybody in

  in Kentucky lua listens to the show your

  bourbon man Dave no I'm less of a

  drinker and more of a smoker really yeah

  you're you're you're you're writing gets

  it comes across pretty pretty frequently

  in your writing

  yeah that's the vibe I'm going through

  yeah I'm not sure whether bourbon comes

  from Kentucky or Tennessee but most of

  my pharmaceuticals come from my drawer

  it isn't that you know I i do think I

  think we're reaching a tipping point and

  maybe I don't have any more follow-up

  i'm looking at my notes here i don't

  think i do now i guess that's it alright

  decks clear they're all mistakes have

  been repaired

  I think we as a country are reaching a

  tipping point on the legalized marijuana

  or decriminalized marijuana it seems to

  me like it's tracking a couple of years

  behind gay marriage

  yeah i think it's it's gonna be an

  interesting topic because i think in

  terms of people's opinion arm i think

  we're entering towards legalization is

  basically inevitable at this point in

  terms of enforcement i think it's going

  to be a lot more tricky than anybody has

  ever imagined

  I'm gonna listen to a few people talk on

  the subject this one guy was on Terry

  Gross recently i'd like to the next

  draft and the incredible complexities

  with legalizing the sale of marijuana

  possibly tax again i'm making it legal

  for certain purposes and not legal for

  other purposes and somehow cutting out

  the illegal trade is going to be pretty

  complicated but you figure we have

  decades of sort of setting up this

  system so it's going to take probably

  several years to sort of undo that I've

  always felt your two reasons sort of the

  criminalisation of marijuana's just

  doesn't make any sense to me the first

  Morse basic reason is the fact that

  people still to this day argue that it

  shouldn't be used for medical purposes

  and my philosophy on life is if you're

  in a situation where you're unfortunate

  enough to be in some kind of serious

  pain or facing some serious ailment

  whatever you can do to make yourself

  feel better

  sounds like the right move to me and for

  any society that calls itself just to

  try to block you from that for some sort

  of vacuous moral reasons totally absurd

  yeah there's a whole bunch of layers of

  abstraction between in between support

  in supporting the criminalization of

  marijuana it's all abstract whereas a

  lot of these you know like you said for

  someone who's really in severe pain or

  any kind of pain really and and you know

  it's it's a completely practical

  application there is no abstraction that

  when when I smoked this stuff or eat it

  or however you consume it I feel better

  ah you know and for some people the

  difference you know if it's if it's

  alleviation of pain it's not you know

  more than just recreational wow this

  makes the matrix a lot more interesting

  and a funny part is even for that second

  example you know they're there really

  are two Americas when it comes to drug

  legalization especially with marijuana

  because you know every day i'm reading

  headlines about the decriminalization of

  marijuana but living here in the bay

  area for the last 30 years or whatever I

  it seems like it's been three

  criminalized for white guys with plenty

  of money

  the whole time right i mean i

  accidentally inhaled Jim natal ski style

  from taxi time around first Internet

  boom and then Cosmo started delivering

  me some munchies and I accidentally sort

  of state in that state of mind for about

  a decade out there was certainly some

  minuses to it i left revenue models out

  of almost every project I did during

  that decade but i don't remember any

  police storming down my door and say hey

  that smell

  you know they just said you know

  whatever whatever it takes for you to

  enjoy your movie or to enjoy this

  cyclist from cosmo having to pedal up

  your steep hill to bring us a small bag

  of chips on a rainy night and some of

  this stuff is just not man I you know

  and and I feel like you and I are a lot

  alike in that we can get into this in a

  bit too but in terms of you know that

  our attention and the way that the web

  seems interested you know it's just

  seems built for our type of mines and

  how many tabs you have open right now

  well since we're talking none but at any

  given time probably about 60 right at no

  this is that's how my I mean that's it's

  just the nature of the game if you're a

  like the link blogger you know if you do

  that sort of just the way your mind

  works and yet the other day I was

  started on cool site and he had linked

  to this unbelievable blog adjust about

  William Friedkin's 1977 movie sorcerer

  which I've never seen which is amazing

  and but it's apparently one of the

  reasons I've never seen it is a nice

  william friedkin director of the French

  Connection and the exercise i think

  those are the two movies he had made

  right before this so he's really

  literally at the top of his game

  and some kind of crime caper in Central


  sounds great but uh it's all locked up

  in legal problems because it was a joint

  production of paramount universal and as

  of today both power mountain universal

  say they don't know who want it and so

  there's no there is a DVD release but

  there's no blu-ray and there's no like

  it's even hard to just screen it or get

  it get a good print of it because

  neither of the two Studios is claiming

  ownership so he's freaking want this

  movie to you know to be treated the way

  it should and he's filed lawsuits just

  to get them to just reveal the paperwork

  that says here's who owns it he doesn't

  even want to make money from it anymore

  he just wants it out there but anyway I

  got sucked into this blog that's just

  about this movie and then one of the

  stories that freakin tells is that he

  flew back they did all the shooting on

  location in Central America and flew

  back to Texas at El Paso Texas on a

  little prop airplane and one of the

  stunt men wanted to come to at the last

  second he's like sure we broom hop in

  guys Hopsin and he's just carrying like

  a little briefcase they land and the cop

  just some cops greets him at the airport

  I guess freaking umar the guy said he

  was a fan of The Exorcist or something

  that he's talking and he's really in a

  real friendly but all of a sudden this

  German Shepherd at the airport goes nuts

  and scratching at this airplane and ends

  up that the dog is is going nuts because

  of this stunt man's briefcase and it

  ends up the stuntman had had some

  marijuana in it previously but took it

  out knowing hey I'm getting on an

  airplane flying internationally keno can

  have marijuana in here took it out but

  it was just literally like a few grains

  you know just at home but you can't

  leaves what are they but i'm just-just

  dust like dust from having had marijuana

  in there like nothing that you could

  even not even like an amount that you

  could smoke but all of a sudden like the

  cop they got locked up freaking got

  locked up everybody was in the plane got

  locked up for hours it took likes

  attorneys from Universal Pictures likes

  to do attorneys to get freaking out and

  they kept the stunt guy locked up for

  two weeks

  I I guess he didn't end up going to jail

  or anything because i had at

  he didn't really have it wasn't like

  possession you know it was just

  something that the dog smelled that it

  was like remnants and I thought you know

  there's all sorts of stories of people

  who are in prison for for drugs you know

  people with lifetime sentences of their

  true tragedies I mean now a stuntman in

  1977 being locked up for two weeks in El

  Paso jail is far far far from the most

  tragic case of Miss justice in the

  criminalisation of drugs but it just

  shows how absurd it is

  yeah it's also i mean in a weird way

  it's also shows that we expect sometimes

  to enjoy the output of a person's work

  like a stuntman or NFL football player

  but then or a cyclist riding up 72

  mountains and two days in the Tour de

  France and then we're totally shocked

  beyond belief that there was any

  artificial substances used in that quest

  you know so you know if if your stock

  man in the seventies doing your own

  stunts like riding a motorcycle operable

  wall and landed on your head

  it's like my god take a couple hits we

  understand it's for my pleasure now and

  that's exactly like that the whole

  freakin style was doing all the stunts

  for practical and and apparently is a

  super dangerous shoot response and stuff

  like that it it there's apparently part

  of a thing in the movie I I don't want

  to and I don't I don't know that much

  about it but it's that there's a it's

  about these trucks that are using for

  the caper and one of the trucks is there

  or the truck

  I don't know is his name sorcerer it's

  like you know like the like the name of

  a ship like the name of the truck its

  sorcerer but apparently it's it the

  movie one of the reasons is not that

  well-known in addition to the legal

  problems that it did pretty poorly at

  the box office and one of the reasons is

  that apparently a lot of people think

  that the title through everybody off

  because its previous movie was the

  exorcist the new one was named sorcerer

  and people just went in thinking it was

  about like the supernatural or something

  you know like about some kind of wizard

  or something like that and you know

  instead it's it's like a dirty gritty

  crime caper but the title had set

  expectations so far afield that it

  damaged the box office

  I've never heard of it and I'm a big

  freaking fan I don't know how that

  happen i'll see if you can get it out

  there so I let's talk in the publishing

  debut you've been blogging when did you

  first start blogging ah let's see i

  first started blogging in the nineties i

  think in your times have an article on

  me it was all about how people use

  weblog to share links and like for the

  late nineties middle 890 so I've been

  doing it for a while while riding is

  sort of always been the throughput of my

  whole life all the way they had

  different careers in different focal

  points aside from not always sort of

  used writing us let me anything I want

  to keep going so what was your what was

  the name of your first blog my first

  blog was called David ethics right

  that's the 1i remember so they started

  out as a personal blog sort of like

  Dianetics with me as the god then it

  evolved into a technology newsletter but

  i actually used to send out a handful of

  technology related links and headlines

  and blurbs much like I do it next draft

  for generals now to about your CEO that

  I worked with because during my time on

  the internet I've also my half of my

  life is about the writing and creative

  stuff and the other half is about

  investing in and working with startups

  so it started out as a business thing

  where I'd find these articles and send

  them out and they would go to serve a

  group of Internet professionals that I

  worked with a sort of spread from there

  at one point they were about 25,000 or

  so subscribers which back then during

  the early part of the first boom was

  pretty widespread but there weren't that

  many of us out here again and as time

  passed on in the room went to Boston

  with sort of i basically became like a

  daily obituary writer

  yeah i just wasn't that into it anymore

  and also i felt like i was writing about

  technology because I with the industry i

  was in but my passion is much more with

  more general i'm into technology and the

  sick addict like you are in like you

  know a lot of us are I got my 70 tabs

  and i'm always on and I'm controlled by

  these devices but my actual area of

  interest goes beyond our technology

  quite a bit so I sort of like more

  general news I've always sort of been

  obsessed with whatever the big story is

  of the moment I want to counterpunch off

  that man who who got started first your

  card key

  oh I'm not or do not know i think it's a

  blogger definitely i'm pretty sure

  Jason's it because i was doing

  newsletter back then but I definitely

  was one of the early blogger users for


  do you remember of which other blogs

  most inspired you like kind of gave you

  that you know what I could do that arm

  you know definitely Kottke I mean I've

  always felt that that was a really

  similar one you know when Jason does a

  redesign I check it out when I'm

  designing something always loved ones

  Jason John usually picks cool fonts and

  a good length of the post i had similar

  interests that I have you know i've also

  definitely inspired by daring fireball

  over the years you'll be covered

  slightly different things but you have

  certain techniques that you have a very

  different sort of online personality

  that I do a lot of its really effective

  so I try to learn that as well in the

  early days it was almost anybody share

  I mean it's interesting that I before

  the internet came for the web so we got

  going every semester or so in college I

  used to write up a 30 page document

  about what I was up to or some jokes or

  essentially a a blog but in sections and

  I printed out bind it and sent to like

  30 reporting my friends and I was also

  called diabetics well I was sort of

  irritating my my closest friends for

  years before the web came sort of

  blogging at them against their will

  and when I first saw blogging I just

  immediately realized hey this is going

  to be really fun for me but be this is

  just gonna this medium is gonna

  absolutely unleash an unbelievable

  creative revolution and that that's what

  I was most excited about during the

  first boom even though most people were

  talking about sentences that have the

  word billion and a couple times but I

  still best the most exciting part about

  this whether it's Twitter whether it's a

  wordpress blog whether it's these weird

  tumblr things that people have these

  bizarre passions that they want to share

  our you know I think the sharing of

  health information is something that is

  so you know all of us have like 20

  things that we feel like we're the only

  people who asked that and you know when

  you're suffering from something you go

  on the web and you realize there's like

  a million people out there who felt like

  you were one time or another and for

  some reason it felt comparing compelled

  to share that just the simple fact that

  you can put stuff out there and

  everybody can read it or see it or watch

  it or listen to it depending on what you

  know if it's a something you wrote or

  music or video or something that it's

  still there but it's the most amazing


  yeah i mean its total remarkable you

  know some projects you doing you have

  you know not as many readers as you want

  or you know like right now you're on a

  big role and you have a ton of readers

  but you know people i think sometimes

  people get down on themselves while we

  only had a hundred people read this or

  50 people read this or even sort of more

  middle-level bloggers that might have

  you know i got ten thousand reads it

  seems small in this day and age was it

  seems so exciting during the first boom

  oh my god i built something or I wrote

  something like thousands of people are

  reading it that's crazy

  now we sort of become dead into that

  because the numbers on the Internet are

  so big a billion users of this and

  hundred my use of that but sometimes

  when I go to like out in San Francisco

  we have a theater called her spirit or a

  lot of the famous authors come to get

  interviewed now and I'd say it holds no

  maybe 1,500 people or so and every now

  that I'll just sit in one of those

  theaters not think like

  you know if I think it's something to

  write right now even if it doesn't do

  that well there's probably a chance

  about this many people are read it in a

  couple hours after i choose to post it

  and that's just incredibly powerful and

  i don't mean that an ego sense like you

  know wow look at how great I am I can

  get 1500 or fifteen thousand readers I

  just mean the idea that the the barrier

  between sharing your ideas is has gone

  down so far and with a little

  serendipity and a little merit you can

  actually have people that you have no

  contact with sort of experience what you

  think on a topic and maybe best case and

  are you start ripping about their

  opinion on it in response to you and I I

  thought that the coolest part about the

  web the first day I fired up a browser

  and i sold the festival's part about the

  web now

  yeah it's absolutely i mean and it it

  went from a attention being an

  artificially limited resource or maybe

  not attention isn't quite the right word

  but the the number of platforms were

  artificially limited to being as almost

  a zero-sum type situation and here's

  what i mean by that let's say that I

  want to do what what I'm do like right

  as quickly as possible let's say when

  traditional terms daily or weekly about

  what's going on in technology and I want

  to have let's just say a hundred

  thousand people read what I write

  there were only a handful of gigs like

  that that that people pre-internet that

  people could have right you could write

  for a major newspaper but even in that

  era really a lot of the major newspapers

  weren't National Right The New York

  Times really only became a national

  newspaper i think in the nineties sort

  of coincident with the rise of the


  I mean it was certainly famous and

  certainly had a very high circulation

  but it really was a new york newspaper

  I mean USA Today was only invented in

  what 1984 something like that i was

  associated with Reagan and didn't really

  run never really ran the type of stuff

  that i right

  you know that's more there just was no

  way I mean what I maybe I could you know

  how many people can write about

  technology for time or Newsweek or

  something like that right there were a

  handful of gigs where you could have a

  lot of readers and write about this

  stuff and that's there was no way to

  invent your own i often i also think

  about the fact that when i was in

  college i was at the student newspaper

  at drexel and I think we used to print I

  is the hidden memories are hazy but I

  think maybe like 3,000 issues a week it

  was a weekly newspaper and we printed

  somewhere in the low single thousands

  you know I don't know two three four

  thousand issues and it was a huge and

  and you know and you realize when you

  print that many that a lot of those it's

  not that there's three four thousand

  students at the school it was you know

  people would pick one up monday been

  reading in class and then they pick up

  another copy on tuesday in a different

  class you know and throw them out

  I don't know how many students really

  read the thing let's just say i don't

  know a thousand but it was a huge deal a

  monumental effort every week just to

  distribute coming four thousand copies

  of ik a 20-30 page newspaper is an

  enormous amount of newspapers like it

  was actually like a huge thing and that

  was just for a small university's

  student newspaper to reaching I don't

  know thousand students a week you you

  just had this entire expensive and and

  heavy paper just coming in week after

  week after week I also think there's

  something really uniquely cool about the

  relationship between a blogger or some

  other kind of internet writer and his or

  her audience because i realize this will

  be in the early early days when I first

  launched David ethics it appeared in a

  couple of applications i think with the

  new york post and the San Jose Mercury

  News back when they were sort of the

  paper record

  the valley out here and also jason cocky

  link to it and i'll never forget on that

  day when I looked at my they weren't

  real time stats back then so I still

  have some semblance of control over my

  minute to minute of my life but at the

  end of the day or the next morning I

  looked at the stats to see how many more

  people had come cocky door and those two

  other big publications with you know

  multi-million dollar budgets behind them

  was pretty inspiring and you know it's


  we know intuitively why right because

  its people are not reading just a brand

  when they're reading some blogs are

  reading that person and when that person

  shares a link there saying hey trust me

  this is going to be worth your time if i

  have too many times when it's not with

  your time going to stop reading me so I

  have a lot of stake here to make sure

  i'm giving you something I think you'll


  so the likelihood somebody clicking on a

  blog link vs clicking on a newspaper

  link you know is so much higher right

  and also just signing up once they get

  there you know it's like a jason said

  this is good day for John say this is

  good let's do it let's give it a try

  because we're actually in a weird way

  friends with them it's not just some

  brand telling me this is cool this is

  not restaurant review from a paper I've

  heard of this is my friend saying dude

  you're in all of the pasta this place go

  check out

  yeah and part of it is it implicit and

  it comes out of almost the subconscious

  of of the publication whether it's a

  one-man operation like mine and khakis

  and David ethics or at an institution

  like a newspaper which is what do you

  really want the person who's reading

  with this thing to do and it the

  newspapers even today what they really

  want you to do is stay on their site

  stay here read another one load another

  page click this you know it'sit's you

  know it but in the nineties it was it

  was an endemic I mean it was almost it

  almost killed maybe I think it might

  have been the leading cause of death for

  a lot of those portals right the whole

  the whole idea of portals was

  get them to come in and stay here right

  and it almost killed yahoo right i mean

  yahoo certainly could have been google

  because yahoo started with you know cool

  side of the day and go to yahoo to find

  something else cool on the internet

  right that's what Yahoo was in 1994

  go-to guy i don't know i want to i want

  something to interest me

  okay i know i'll go to yahoo and they'll

  they'll send me somewhere good when they

  shifted to this strategy of people come

  to yahoo let's keep them on yahoo is

  when they they they almost choked to

  death on whereas you know like cocky

  when you go to cocky he really wants you

  to click the links right i mean when

  dead when you come to my site I want you

  to go and read the thing i'm linking to

  and I trust that you will you know and

  it's it's super satisfying to me it is

  you know it almost you know like when I

  link to somebody and it breaks their

  website it it does mean I'm not glad

  that people's websites occasionally

  break I but I'm glad that so many that

  it's just like it it's like almost I can

  feel it that people really do follow the

  links like I want you to go away right i

  mean I definitely feel the same about

  next draft you know I stand that out

  with the 10 what I think are the most

  fascinating stories of the day you know

  it the one of the key measurements I

  mean of course I measure opens and

  forwards and shares and stuff like that

  but probably my key measurement of

  weather that day was a success was how

  many links how many legs got hit Allah

  and were there any that really stood out

  and you know got several thousand klicks

  that both made a difference for my

  readership obviously and also sort of

  made a difference a noticeable

  difference on the stats page for that

  person i'm linking to you know said wow

  this is pretty cool especially if it's

  sort of an unusual article you know

  occasionally Jason cocky and I indicate

  each other and he'll syndicator blur

  about an extract once we can also

  indicate one of his lips once a week and

  next draft and when we do that there are

  there occasionally we're looking to

  stuff that's not necessarily that

  popular yet

  and it's fun occasionally have seen

  between the two of us i can pretty

  quickly go to the most popular item on

  that site you know so that's another

  thing you feel like you have some

  influence of I think you're gonna think

  this is cool and you didn't think this

  was cool

  I'm but the whole the whole blogger

  mentality is sort of built on it's not

  built on how many page views do I get

  how many ads too i sell its really built

  on you know i'm i'm trying to be

  interesting to I'm trying to get you to

  like me you know and by I'll give you

  whatever it takes for you to sort of be

  my friend and the love me it sounds

  crazy but I think that's more of the the

  goal so the web is about saying here's

  these cool stuff check it out so it

  makes sense every blogger would

  immediately go to that model because

  they want to be they want to have these

  virtual friends they want have these

  people that count on them that there's

  something big the point him in the right

  direction they'll be one of the first

  stop they come to something happens if

  there's a big story that breaks in the

  macworld you know i'll probably go to

  daring fireball first being your

  internet click over to that big story

  because well but a lot of times to my

  personal pacing and style is such that

  i'm usually not first and sometimes I'm

  very far behind you are at least two

  have anything substantial to say about


  yeah my favorite example of that is is

  whenever there's an apple event my

  traffic goes through the roof especially

  you know like live while it's happening

  but I don't do the live blog thing and

  because I'm you know most of the time on

  there in the audience and I'm listening

  and I'm taking notes i'm not posting

  anything so at button but the site goes

  nuts and it's just people reloading add

  the homepage of daring fireball with

  last night's last item at the top over

  and over and over again waiting for me

  to say something right and it is good in

  a sense it's it's an honor and no and if

  i had a pageview based revenue model I i

  would have to have some family I guess

  I'd have to live blog or something to

  take advantage of that

  but it's kind of cool because it's a

  very nice knowing that the site is going

  nuts is a very nice sort of implicit

  deadline like a get your get your

  thoughts together but get them up there

  people are waiting you know like I don't

  want to disappoint these people sort of

  feeling in my gut

  ya know I think that's a that feeling of

  feeling like you're part of this

  conversation or community and people are

  sort of waiting to hear you chime in on

  something is a pretty powerful a pretty

  powerful feeling that definitely and my

  goal with next draft basically is that

  when a big news story breaks in a

  presidential election was yesterday at

  the academy awards were last night the

  Super Bowl is Sunday that one of the

  stops people assume on their day and

  maybe even during the event there

  thinking I wonder able to have something

  weird or funny to say about that moment

  tomorrow i'm looking forward to seeing

  what he says about it and that feeling

  is definitely what drives me and I

  almost feel the responsibilities do it

  but that makes me feel sort of more

  connected with the news and were

  connected with you the readers and I

  will sort of news obsessed so I having a

  take on big news events is in my DNA

  so sharing those is sort of like a

  pleasure for me yeah there were two of a

  kind of that regard

  like I remember one of the happiest

  little things of like my high school

  years was that you know you get your we

  got our homeroom teachers assigned

  randomly and I got mr. chica he was

  great teacher to he was a social studies

  teacher those top current events and

  this is about 50 minutes into suburb

  about 50 miles outside Philly but he had

  a daily subscription to his office of

  the Philly Enquirer which was so a there

  was a daily newspaper right there when I

  got to homeroom every day and he was you

  know IM it i forget what he did but it

  was you know shared it with you know

  anybody in homeroom wanted to do it and

  none of the other kids wanted to read a

  newspaper so it wasn't like I had to

  fight over the sections it was like I

  had my own subscription to the philly

  inquirer every day

  and it was just great to me that was

  just great because it was so clearly a

  better newspaper than the the reading

  eagle the local newspaper and the

  Enquirer and especially in the eighties

  had a host of great colonists just been

  included in the you know the great sense

  of the the traditional sense of being a

  newspaper columnist like guys who would

  write about anything you know beach from

  and women did it

  current events you know politics to you

  know local stuff remember one time I was

  a great column in Philadelphia group

  crazy something average city I stuff

  like this but we have this big big

  Street it goes too big

  north south boulevard is broad street

  and broad street on both sides north and

  south that separated by city hall north

  broad street is north of city hall south

  broad street south of city hall there's

  a median strip so two lanes of traffic

  or two or three lanes of traffic each

  way and then one lane in the middle

  that's empty in south philly you're

  allowed to park there

  it's between yellow lines you clearly by

  the painting of the line should not be

  able to park there but if you do you

  will not get a ticket and so although

  it's like three miles from city hall

  down to you go down broad street and

  then you end up at the sports complex

  for the phillies and eagles play and

  broad street its parking on the curbs

  and parking in the middle of the street

  if you park in the middle of broad

  street north philly just one block one

  block up above city hall you'll get a

  ticket within five minutes and i'll

  probably call a tow truck and it said

  there was one columnist he wouldn't

  write about it every week but maybe once

  a year so he would you know he would

  just like an annual tradition was he

  would take one of the Inquirer's company

  cars parking on south broad for 24 hours

  see if you got a ticket never did and

  then park it on north broad and the

  enquirer building happened to be on

  north broad and then time how long it

  took to get a ticket and that to me that

  was I just love stuff like that the way

  that he would do it like once a year

  Oh to me that was that's what I wanted

  to do when I grew up

  yeah weird way kind of is yeah my my


  childhood was sort of more on the

  international side than on the local

  side I mean I we just our religion on

  weekends was the sunday talk shows me

  and my parents watched all the news if I

  removed to a new city the first thing i

  do is get cable and turn on Bernard Sean

  see and feel like I wasn't home when I

  was in college a typical phone

  conversation with me my dad would the

  phone ringing I'd say hello need saying

  that's cooking tonight not much you'd

  say everybody I think this girl blowjob

  guy and basically now a few decades

  later he calls and said that's cooking

  and I said not much how are the kids

  good battle buddy i think this Putin guy

  basically are really a huge part of our

  communication was about news is always

  sort of been it's just part of our

  family dialogues I've always sort of

  been pretty news obsessed and following

  it certainly more on the national scale

  or international then where did you grow

  up I grew up in nearest outside of San

  Francisco and sheriff I'll so what was

  the big newspaper I I mean our

  television newspaper called the marine

  IJ but most people there still remain

  paper was the San Francisco Chronicle

  right and a big big fat sunday edition

  yeah we had a pretty big fat sunday dish

  we have the pink section for

  entertainment and the sports section was

  actually green then call the sporting

  green so I thought that was when people

  ask me why I have such an excellent eye

  for user interface i have to give

  credits the chronicle making their

  sporting green green

  this seems like the sort of thing that

  you have a strong opinion i know i did

  which which of the network news

  broadcasts was your go-to network news

  broadcast you know this year it's you

  mean like during the election now like

  in the old days

  Oh in the old days you know as soon as

  we have CNN definitely soon as Ted

  Turner hooked us up with that 24-hour

  intravenous feed that was it now

  my family was either CNN or wheel of

  fortune everything I learned about life

  is to learn CNN wheel of fortune learned

  about society from CNN learned

  everything I know

  business from wheel of fortune when

  somebody would buy a vowel after they

  already knew the answer so we'll

  fortunate my family that was like always

  a teachable moments like look at this

  guy but you're buying a round for or the

  what's the other big mistake other big

  mistake is when you know that he knows

  the he knows the answer and you there's

  forties you know there's going to be

  forties and any weights it on like two

  hundred dollars like he gets like 200

  and then goes for the tea and only gets

  800 bucks it's like no now you you know

  do the end and spin again to get a

  bigger number for the tea right yeah no

  wheel of fortune with in many ways a

  pivotal pivotal part of our family we

  have a role we couldn't watch TV during

  dinner so we are average dinner length

  was about seven minutes and once wheel

  of fortune came man that combination of

  the letters the prizes the blonde chick

  turning the letters like there was

  something for everybody in my family

  that really just went right out the

  window spent the next four or five years

  watching eating dinner on a wheel of

  fortune Glenn Fleischmann and I were

  talking about game shows because he was

  on when he was on the talk show a few

  weeks ago because he was on Jeopardy

  right on and we and I just an amount of

  their time i will fortunately i'm

  thinking about it more and more i really

  do think I never really gave it that

  much thought but I do think there really

  is something to the assist sustained

  success perennial popularity of that

  show that has something to do with the

  fact that you at home can figure out the

  answer so far in advance of the puzzle

  actually being solved and it can create

  a lot of drama especially if you're

  uncertain whether the person spinning

  also knows the answer I youth you

  figured it out but you're not quite sure

  if they did and and you can get like I'm

  thinking like rocks i remember watching

  life and they get like five grand they

  get the big one and you'd be like our

  are theirs for ours and then if you know

  it was this incredible tension of please

  say are so you get all this money

  don't don't screw this up there's also

  the aspect of the game were it

  the game was slow enough that even if

  you had no idea what the puzzle is if

  somebody else in your house yelled it


  you can almost mimic them close enough

  to get your last letter out just a

  fraction of a second after dated for

  like 10 just beat me and it does it does

  play in the Hitchcock's definition of

  suspense a little bit or or you know

  recipe for suspense which was that you

  know like his are the analogy with our

  story was imagine a scenario where

  there's a terrorist who's going to put a

  bomb in a movie packed movie theater

  everybody's first instinct in a movie or

  right trying to create suspensions to

  have it be a surprise and that you so

  sure these people in the audience and

  then boom the bomb explodes and the

  audience you watching the movie or just

  as surprised by this explosion as the

  people on screen and he said that's all


  what you do is you show the people in

  the theater and then you move the camera

  down underneath a little girl and you

  show that the bomb is under her chair

  then you go back to the audience now you

  the people watching the movie are filled

  with suspense because you know there's a

  bomb and the characters onscreen do not

  thats suspense right and wheel of

  fortune has that where you can know the

  answer and you don't know if the the

  contestants do basically the threat of

  somebody buying an unnecessary valve was

  that bomb under my seat at the dinner

  table for about five years of my life I

  don't know I feel like game shows are a

  lost art yeah there's not there they

  gone overboard with all the reality

  stone yeah they've been replaced with

  this mishmash of reality in and game

  shows you know like I guess survivors

  the canonical example which is sort of a

  game shows sort of a reality show but

  it's it's you know just the the Hokey

  pneus of a traditional game show with

  buzzers and wheels and they spin and the

  fact that it's so clearly shot in the

  studio in Los Angeles someone's lost i

  do think in a strange way game shows

  were a precursor to social networks

  though how so

  well I've always felt there certain

  television shows are classes and

  television shows that there's some

  people when you read them on the web you

  talking like I can't believe

  leave you watch that dude there's no way

  you sit through wheel of fortune

  oh my god beverly hills of a you know I

  mean a real housewives of beverly hills

  that's so brutal how can you waste your

  time with that entertainment and the

  truth is you can't waste your time with

  those forms of entertainment

  unless this is a big unless unless

  there's somebody else in the room with

  you if you're with your wife and you're

  watching The Real Housewives of Beverly

  Hills the entire time all you're doing

  is talking about how stupid all the

  people are is the pleasure said it once

  you're done talking about all of the

  other couples you know and all the other

  families and you've done all the gossip

  for the day is like all right let's

  figure out some other people we can

  gossip about her a few hours save from

  these shows even game shows even

  jeopardy it's sort of fun when you're by

  yourself but it's much more fun you're

  competing in somebody gonna do if you

  look at the early days of the web some

  of it was sort of interesting but

  there's just some stuff it's more fun to

  laugh together and then to laugh Ilona

  you know last night when google released

  the new maps then you know there are

  about 40 jokes in my twitter stream you

  know I'm part of that like you part of

  the strange community that forget the 12

  12 12 concert forget any other TV that's

  on forget the fact that it's you know

  wednesday night might be a good time

  just to relax with the family it's like

  no this is a huge tectonic news story

  right here the google maps app has been

  approved but because there's this inside

  conversation about this event that

  happened where everybody sort of knows

  the backstory every started to notice

  the characters you can get away with

  making jokes that are one line because

  people know what you're referring to

  it sort of adds to the story whereas

  sitting home alone

  it's in front of your screen reading

  that the google app got releases like

  okay great click what's next but because

  there's a group of people talking about

  it it adds so much value was i I see

  what you mean what you're saying it is

  that like a trashy TV show like Real

  Housewives of insert any time where they

  have the show is not really best seen as

  a way to zone out in front of the TV in

  the classic couch potato sense but

  rather it's

  it's fuel for conversation right i mean

  i think that's this whole second screen

  movement right in saying hey you can't

  pay attention to something so ah you

  know look down at your other screen and

  and share that experience with somebody

  right so now you can watch the real

  housewives of beverly hills with me if

  we're on IM or Twitter or whatever right

  but I think in a really weird way the

  television and this is one of the

  reasons why I'm very protective of

  television and I'm i like the web

  television is like my blood and I am

  very weary of how you know the new TV

  revolution that it doesn't ruin and make

  tea to interactive because when we were


  television was seen as this oh my

  family's not talking to each other


  everybody sitting in silence in the room

  we used to sit around the dinner table

  and have a conversation today TV has the

  exact opposite role in our society today

  if you close your laptop and just watch

  a TV show it's actually one of the rare

  times the whole family or a few people

  my family are doing something together

  at the same time and are focused on the

  exact same topic and in a weird way it's

  like it's a great show you're getting

  nurtured another way right him if

  somebody talks during madmen you're like

  it stopped but if it's something stupid

  like a game show or a reality show it's

  actually your act to interacting with

  the other person on the couch where if

  the TV were off at least in my house

  both laptops will be open and then be no

  interaction with people right sort of

  weird way I feel like that the TV is

  this like 10 character on our couch that

  I don't want to become so interactive

  that it becomes that you can have

  community while you're alone i want i

  want that community still come from all

  the other people on the couch

  that's an interesting i kind of agree

  with that and I never really thought

  about it that way

  I mean a take a quick break here and do

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  so here's what I just one of the things

  I want to talk to you about so you you

  mentioned this a little bit earlier that

  that David ethics kind of wound down

  originally you know it was it was then

  and this sort of thing does fascinate me

  for four solo self you know just

  self-absorbed reasons but we know the

  fact that there aren't a lot of blogs

  that have longevity people get into it i

  mean there's not many people like cocky

  who have been going for 14 consecutive


  why--why'd why did you stop with David


  I mean not that it ever was shuttered

  but it ceased to be a daily thing

  no it's a great question i mean i think

  the short answer is that it was a



  I think probably five to pick one

  mistake that I could take back

  moreover we do on the web that I just

  had too many brands over the years and

  that was sort of an example of that

  where I i love launching new sites arm

  and I love doing the branding and the

  logos and the tangle mines and thinking

  of something new when having a fresh

  start you know I i invest in a work with

  startups and the only part that I have

  any passion for the first six months I

  just love that sort of launching

  products and whether they're my owner

  helping with somebody else and you know

  over the years I thought well if it's

  stable medics is associated with

  technology that's create something

  called next draft that's associated with

  news but i think because of that it

  would always be times where we take

  people a little bit of time to find me

  again after that and it I probably had a

  stronger stretch or less ups and downs

  over the years if I had a single brand

  the whole time if I just had Dave

  instead of de papel the musician getting

  it first or I just stuck with David

  ethics the whole way I probably think it

  would have been fine to more of that

  product into whatever I was into at the

  time as opposed to launching and totally

  new product but I've had so many brands

  over the years but now that's all over

  now I've been my wife has been telling

  me this for years or were focused on

  next draft i'm sticking with next draft

  next draft is the brand and I said

  you're not allowed to relaunch the new

  thing i'm not i'm not allowed to rebrand

  in anyway right

  well why but why did why did you go away

  from David expert just that you wanted

  to switch to something new it was the

  the appeal of a novel new thing and the

  new logo in a new name and maybe it you

  know slightly new format or something

  like that was was irresistible

  yeah i think that because it is sort of

  the same thing I mean it in you know in

  theory you know I mean it's the same


  it's the same sort of columnist style

  injection of your personality into what

  you're doing and links in Iowa

  well I see the beat is a little the beat

  and turn few me to the writing style for

  sure in terms of the topic its Stefan

  the next draft is all news right so that

  that's the big difference why didn't I

  just say hey I'm not just into

  technology this is now David ethics is

  going to be an all-news hope you stick

  with me and if you do tell your friends

  alright if I had it to do over again

  that's what I would have done for sure

  the reason i switch just because like I

  told you I've always been obsessed with

  news and these broader issues and i have

  well i'm interested in technology and my

  job is in technology I i feel i have

  more interesting / potentially funny

  things to say about other areas

  ah so I've always wanted to branch out

  into this up sort of broader news

  category and next draft to sort of it

  really isn't the sweet spot of you know

  I wanted to focus on something that I

  felt like I could do that my skills let

  themselves go and I could do uniquely

  well I can look at a hundred sites and a

  couple hours and pick out 10 stories

  that I'm really quite sure people will

  be interested in

  I can counter punch off those stories

  either by writing something informative

  or funny or both pretty quickly and

  proofread it and I don't get nervous at

  all about pressing send and go and i

  really enjoyed that process so in a way

  next job is really the perfect product

  for my personality both my interest down

  my skills whether i should have had one

  brand all along i don't think there's

  any doubt about that would have been a

  better move and wiser people than both

  of us have told me that that several

  times it will take years and years of

  our marriage

  there's two issues i guess and play then

  once the branding angle and I totally

  see what you say there and I guess I

  agree with your wife on but the second

  one too is about format and that is one

  of the things that the internet is

  really a freed people like us because I

  feel like I've been able to for Jenna

  and you know a big part of it i've

  copied a lot of it you know i mean cocky

  was a huge influence on daring fireball

  Dean Allen's text ism was an enormous

  influence on daring fireball mark

  pilgrims dive in the mark started a

  little bit and it was also the same year

  that damn fire bob did but you know is

  sort of just the way he wrote about

  technology was definitely an inspiration

  but I think ultimately I've sort of over

  especially after 34 years doing it sort

  of wheeled it down i want to call it a

  formula but there's like a a a voice to

  a days or maybe even better to look at

  it is like a week worth of content on

  daring fireball that isn't really like

  anything that came before it and it

  certainly like nothing in print right i

  mean like in the print days which is

  probably what I would have done if I had

  lived a generation earlier somehow try

  to break into print but you were

  hamstrung by format right if you're a

  columnist for the new york times it

  which is a great gig right but three

  times a week every week you're writing

  750 words and it's 750 words every time

  or two times a week I guess we're as we

  can i can write you know 34 little

  pittie one line things and then without

  a 2,000 word peace one right after


  right now i find it interesting that

  you've gone back to the the real quality

  of a newsletter right it's a daily next

  draft is a weekday once-a-day issue

  right which is eight email and and an

  iOS app right but it started as as email

  and in either case like i said i guess

  the Nugget the nugget of delivery is the

  issue right and the issue contains 10

  items so instead of sending out 10 posts

  a day or 10 emails a day or 10 whatever

  the day there's one issue and the issue

  has 10 items right curious what drew you

  back to that and it does seem like that

  your natural format

  yeah it's interesting when i first did

  next draft as a younger man with more

  red well i actually had a column and

  lead of the

  at the lead of the whole thing so I'd

  write a column and add link to the day's

  most interesting news

  I just there's something about the for

  my first of all email in general in

  these days the app also i think there's

  when I first relaunch next draft about a

  year-and-a-half ago a friend of mine who

  had used to read it said he should be

  launched next draft would love it they

  need and I kept saying I don't get it

  right now people have twitter facebook

  they're overwhelmed by news that keeps

  flowing in they don't want another news

  source and my friend are you know what

  they need is a new source that somebody

  else goes out there and deals with the

  flood and then says here's 10 things i'm

  pretty sure be interested in and you

  don't have to worry about following

  every incoming links for the rest of it

  so I was sort of dubious but because i

  loved it so much when I did it's always

  been my favorite thing to do on the

  internet I I sort of launched again and

  I I followed a really similar format

  from before but I do I think of it as a

  column with links arm it has numbers so

  it's easier people to sort of scroll

  through and know when it's going to

  start an end or on the iphone and ipad

  app you can sort of swipe through it

  know how your where you are in the story

  but ultimately i do think of it is sort

  of its my column on today with links are

  a lot of people tell me that they never

  click on the links he they just read it

  they get enough of an overview so that

  you know they enjoy reading it getting

  my overview of the day's news and they

  feel like they have enough data to you

  know sort of p semi-interesting at a

  dinner party that night them probably

  the most common user will click through

  on one or two things maybe three

  so there's something about it that is

  sort of this story that like doing and I

  like be able to refer back to other

  stuff there's certain limitations you

  know if a big story breaks 10 minutes

  after I published my newsletter

  that's a bit of a drag but i do i love

  something about that newsletter feel I

  think about you there will be a blog


  our veterans

  our veterans

  sure of it but I there's something I've

  always loved about email and I feel like

  the app sort of mimics that experience

  without all the clutter your inbox you

  know there's been so much criticism of

  email over the years especially not

  entirely limited but especially among

  you know people in our industry that get

  15 million of the day and feel compelled

  to update us on the status of their

  inbox on twitter which is to me the one

  thing more irritating than a crowded

  clutter inbox you know what I've started

  doing recently and I i got away with

  this from this years ago and I sort of

  was relying on filters and stuff like


  what I've started doing is when I

  encounter an email and I'm annoyed by it

  and I know that it's you know it's not

  an email from a person it's it's some

  sort of automated email from annoyed by


  I've gone back to going to the bottom

  clicking the unsubscribe link and I'm

  opting out of whatever the hell it is

  and going through and I've found that my

  email has been it i don't know there's

  something about that that and I think

  that's the complaint a lot of people

  have is that you look at your inbox and

  you can just tell by scanning it before

  you start reading messages that a lot of

  it is shit you don't want to read right

  right and I got to a point where i would

  just you know I was only one more click

  on the down arrow from going past the 1i

  don't want to read but I find that I'm

  actually happier if i take a little bit

  of time to try to keep the crap out in

  the first place

  it's just it makes me more likely to

  even go and check my email right I'm

  gonna I've always found myself to be a

  little defensive about email because it

  gets criticized so much but i don't

  think that the medium is the problem i

  think the content is the problem just

  most emails suck right so people assume

  that email sucks i think email is

  actually was nice at the outset and I

  think actually in the day of Twitter and

  Facebook we are constantly and undated

  by incoming content is actually in a

  strange way are even more valuable

  because you

  in with twitter you know that the links

  go by the streams go by the stories on

  you know we talked about how many tabs

  we have open it all sort of passes by

  you're not sure where you saw something

  or how it related to something else you

  saw but email is always just like right

  where you left it

  you know I started reading this email I

  know exactly where it is it's right

  where I left and I can go finish it

  later if I want to you know do I

  acknowledge that for many people

  especially in you know industries that

  they sort of have a ton of coworkers

  sending them thousands of emails a day

  paid email for sure that's why i

  launched my iOS app and sort of said

  it's the exact same sort of private

  intimate experience something you can

  count on being there that doesn't sort

  of just scroll by without you right but

  it's out of your inbox nautical it makes

  sense because and it doesn't seem it

  feels natural because like i said to me

  they feel like daily issues and anywhere

  where to cut the idea of an issue makes

  sense is a natural for next graph and

  then the app feels just as it doesn't

  feel like it's a newsletter

  oh and you can read it through an app if

  you know the one you're gonna read it in

  the app it feels just as natural as

  reading the reading an email

  yeah well I'm glad that's definitely

  definitely the goal

  uh when when how did you decide what's

  your schedule like like you work in the

  morning or do you do start doing the

  next day's issue that the afternoon

  before like when do you put an issue did

  you know what's your schedule like


  yeah i'm gonna basically i never really

  turn off on that topic and finding

  stories so you know I'll always check at

  least once a few sites the night before

  to make sure i'm not gonna miss anything

  that you know like like we said it's

  called transient it goes away by the

  next morning sometimes

  so I'll always check things but my heart

  schedules more i usually get into my

  office around eight or so and I just

  crank for the next three-and-a-half four

  hours half that time or so is finding

  the stories and the other half is sort

  of riding proofread for Madame are

  pretty old-school i write it all and be

  be added and just paste it into a web

  format mailchimp and set out there is a

  little one big difference you have from

  what i have therefore and it's it so

  it's really like almost retro is that

  when an issue goes out especially with

  the email i guess you could fix it in

  the app but if you have a typo

  it's in there right on it it makes me

  not I certainly proofread before I

  publish but I I'm certainly far lazier

  than i would be otherwise and you know

  my typical style is to proofread myself

  but I do it quickly publish and then pay

  attention to my email and Twitter for

  the next five minutes to fix any type of

  right because they're going to be


  uh-huh whereas that does not mean that

  ain't going to work with a newsletter

  right now I always tell people if you

  want to test and be sure people are

  really reading your stuff just put a

  typo in the first paragraph so so

  especially like the one that's like a

  pet peeve type out right yeah it's still

  not the apostrophe out of its that you

  know major connection part is that when

  you get to feel the email and say like

  I'm sure I'm not the first person to

  tell you this but and then it falls with

  three paragraphs on the different

  meaning of its and it's alright and then

  you have to email the bags yeah actually

  nobody else bothered it was just you

  thanks you know I made a name for that

  typo and it never caught on

  I'd still like it to catch on i call it

  in it so that sounds good and it's

  either way it's it and it so is writing

  one of the IT apostrophe s or or IITs

  where what you wanted was the other one

  either 1 it's in itself and then you

  could just say to someone you have an it

  so in the first paragraph right

  ya i ti TSO it so let's try to make that

  we make that catch on i'll do that next

  time somebody the next 30 times somebody

  emails me

  not that i will respond and thanks for

  giving me the heads-up about the endzone

  the other 12 is that there's this weird

  history and internet culture of it being

  deemed rude to point out that somebody

  made a grammatical or spelling mistake

  and therefore sometimes when people

  write to me they'll be extraordinarily

  apologetic like a almost over the top

  apologetic I can't believe I'm bringing

  this up to you and I'm so sorry i really

  love your site i've been reading it for

  years i have made by your t-shirts and I

  hate to tell you this but you use the

  you know you you've got a TA gir where

  you meant theyĆ­re ' yard in the third

  paragraph of this piece and then I

  always write back and like no apologies

  i did you know if readers didn't point

  this out I've never catch them

  yeah I yeah I probably different with

  you there i like that i like the several

  paragraphs of love that preceded by hate

  it I hate it I feel bad because I feel

  like there's people out there who see

  these are seeing typos and aren't

  reporting them to me because they're

  there they're so apologetic that they

  don't even want to send them to me

  well you know you can trust from our

  relationship that if I ever email you

  notify about a typo it's mostly because

  i want you to link to one of my projects

  I don't want compliments so you did you

  find yourself at you dude you you don't

  have a problem editing your own pros i

  do i find myself usually repulsed by my

  own writing especially when it's fresh

  like when i'm done writing it

  yeah I have a secret friend who's always

  on IM during the day when i'm wrapping

  who for some reason enjoys next draft

  and thinks it's a worthy use of my time

  with or without a revenue model and is

  so I've ever problem is you don't need

  the whole thing proof read but

  occasionally I'll have one or two

  sections that I feel like I'm not sure

  works or if this joe going too far or in

  somebody else's eyes to to look at it

  yeah and he this guy's name is Morty

  he's a lot more literal than I am so

  sometimes I'll have six or seven cups of

  coffee and sort of get a little too

  wound up and

  I'm firing off some tweets not just got

  it going on and then I'll sort of a

  paragraph that the joke is sort of an

  inside joke between me and my myself so

  occasional run one of those by him too

  and in the process if he tells me that I

  have an apostrophe in one of my it sews

  then you know that's just the shit so i

  think i read about it on next draft

  actually last was it last week that this

  story i'm sure you put it in next draft

  but i think it's where i first thought

  was the the news that somebody's some

  scientists have said that that drinking

  excessive amounts of coffee is is good

  for you that the people who drink i

  don't know i forget what that what the

  cutoff was but a fair amount of coffee

  everyday have significantly higher life

  or are statistically relevant longer

  life expectancy

  yeah they're just to have to die right

  but I see and I know that I'm a total

  hypocrites not the right word but I when

  news about like the stuff that i liked

  it take coffee booze when it says that

  it's good for you

  I i jump all over it and I read it and

  and i love it and then when something

  comes out you know that points the other

  way I just a it doesn't apply to me

  yeah you just explained all of media

  right there

  why MSNBC only has left wingers and Fox

  only as right-wingers you know and I

  don't feel like on that way politically

  i do I like to read

  well written pieces from the opposing

  view i tend to be liberal i tend to vote

  democrat i like to read some of the you

  know certainly not the Tea Party types

  but they're certainly the reasonable

  types you know I like to read George

  well once in a while I like to see what

  what you know I like to open my mind to

  stuff like that but when it comes to the

  coffee I don't want to rely on here

  about problems that you get from

  drinking too much coffee right well you

  need your stuff for claims powder so you

  got to read some of the dummies once in


  alright trying to think anything else

  before we should I talk about google

  maps so you mentioned that the google

  maps app as we record today on

  what is the thursday the December 13th

  google google maps iphone app hit hit

  last night you know i have two things I

  want to say about that one was there was

  this crazy story on all things D that

  they promoted as an exclusive and Kara

  Swisher tweeted it and it was this big

  story on all things D last night which

  was that they had an exclusive which was

  that Google Maps was coming out later

  that and it's like a 700 word article

  and I the thing that struck me about is

  you know my technician if they found out

  obviously they had a source who

  confirmed before everybody else knew

  that google maps for iphone was coming

  out last night well that is news but if

  the entirety of what you know can fit in

  a tweet then it should just be a tweet

  right just tweet it right this incessant

  desire for exclusives and the page view

  driven mindset that would make you write

  an article they don't have screenshots

  they didn't get to use it wasn't a

  review of it they didn't have the app


  all they had was the knowledge with that

  it was coming out yeah well it's that's

  kind of stuff is mostly an SEO play all

  learned from the folks over at the

  huffington post you know think about

  what people are going to be searching

  for the next 45 minutes and have a

  headline up that matches that I didn't

  even think about that angle this so what

  time is the super bowl

  I guarantee they'll be on a big headline

  on huffington post the day before the

  superbowl that will say what time is the

  super bowl and they'll come up first and

  the worst part is they don't answer the

  question right away the article right

  then I care about that they just want

  the page view right you really expect

  the truth is even a lot of technology

  news it's funny right because you're

  you're sort of breaking exclusives at a

  time at night when there's like 16 of us

  to give a shit and we already know it

  so of course there's always this weird

  thing also you know there's a sort of

  race to inform the 12 people who care

  about something you already know it

  yeah i hear this article and i don't i

  tend to fall you know because you tend

  to follow people you who see things the

  way you do at least on Twitter so the

  people i follow tend to be the type who

  are opposed to that and and it's like an

  endless it's almost like an in-joke

  among a bunch of us that putting

  exclusive in a headline is is it haha it


  every time I see it just it rings it

  will move it just don't know greats up

  on me

  yeah certainly like with the john mcafee

  story you know everybody had an

  exclusive with him

  here's like crazy guy standing on a

  corner in Guatemala mumbling to himself

  that's not an exclusive we can all hear

  him but they are all exclusive call it


  yeah I heard it from a slightly

  different angle than these other 12

  watermelons did and part of it is that

  it's a total internet ism because it's

  all about in a again the old days there

  was never like in the print days there

  nobody ever put the word exclusive and a

  headline there was no need to write if

  you were first your first and everybody

  had to wait another day to catch up

  anyway right the exclusive was inherent

  right like New York Times had an

  exclusive a bit of news about I don't

  know the war in Afghanistan they just

  you know they still do this that has

  stood as they don't put exclusive in the

  headline at the new york times but it

  was exclusive for a day right it was

  because nobody else here took another

  day for you to Washington Post to get

  another issue out so it would you didn't

  have to tell people something was

  exclusive it was exclusive now people

  put exclusive in the headline and as

  soon as it comes out everybody's linking

  to it anyway and it's not exclusive

  yeah I mean I guess that's what bothers

  me when things were exclusive because of

  the nature of print nobody ever had to

  say they were exclusive now people brag

  about things being exclusive and they're

  not there is nothing exclusive about it

  i also as a related thing that I find

  incredibly thorough but it's angering or

  humorous or maybe some combination of

  both is the live tweeting and live

  blogging of events that every single

  person in your twitter stream is already

  live blog your life treating with but

  with no irony no added value no joke so

  i admit i like to eat every apple event

  from the comfort of my own desk here in

  San Francisco but I mean I'm just making

  jokes you're adding color right like I

  just it's incredible that people are

  absolutely seriously saying like oh the

  new phone is gonna have a camera in the

  front and it does 10 more pixels you

  know what it's like

  you know that you're the 48 first and

  say that's right and its really not

  urgent comes out in a month and half

  anyway back is now aluminum not glass

  yeah I and everybody does it but it's

  like at least add an opinion or a joke

  or something

  alright got a hundred forty characters

  at least make three or four those

  characters something I don't already

  know but I guess people get obsessed

  with that stuff you know like I i have a

  couple friends who they don't tweet much

  but every now and then just get really

  into a football game and they'll just

  start tweeting specific place from the

  game as if we're all watching together

  they don't name the game they just sort

  of say like Oh sweep left goes for to

  second and seven not it it's like I'm

  just not sure how that's adding any

  value and that's always see live

  tweeting right it's like I can see its

  second and seven that's not a tweet dude

  let's go putting putting exclusive and a

  headline is is it is no better than

  putting first ! in a comment under the

  article it just telling people that

  you're the first to write this you know

  yeah crazy so the google math with what

  you do what do what do you think you

  have give what you think of the new I

  Apple maps you you probably don't leave

  the bay area much the Apple maps are

  pretty good out there right yeah I

  didn't find them that terribly i was

  mostly just reading about it on the

  problems people having and you know

  definitely hearing about a lot of the

  frustrations and apple about it

  are you know honestly i'm not a huge map

  to user marry me neither so I do is find

  it i find it hard to to write about in

  the rare circumstance that I don't don't

  know where something is I either just

  like ask somebody will know where i just

  i will use google maps or something on

  the web and just sort of take a quick

  glance at it and say okay that's the

  directions i don't really I'm not the

  type to open up a nap and say okay turn

  left at here you know maybe that's

  because I'm little insular here you know

  it tends to happen to us old internet

  people I probably I'm about as far from

  my desk as ever

  really right next to it but i thought

  you know I thought that Apple maps with

  well-designed and had the typical

  problems you would think it would have

  you know it didn't have multiple years

  of millions of people hammering on it

  and finding the holes and saying fill

  these holes i thought the UI and the

  look and feel of it was fine i didn't

  really have that much of a problem with

  it with google maps that I've tried you

  know in anticipation of this

  conversation like I said it's not a

  something I was anticipating with bated


  I feel like the map part of it is

  awesome you know you click the button

  and says you know locateme it mailed me

  right to the corner

  I when I said show me the front of the

  place that used to live in and new york

  city it took me right to that address

  and gave me a beautiful street view of

  the exact unit you know and all that

  stuff was great when I actually started

  using it and saying like a take me on a

  drive from my office to my house as a

  test it took me about five minutes to

  figure out how to get out of that screen

  I just I couldn't quite get out of that

  screen I feel like there's there's no

  doubt google is improving on software

  but I I still don't feel like it's as

  for me it was intuitive as it could be i

  know people are raving about it so you

  know what I tested it to rip out my

  directions from my office to my house

  you know it definitely gave me good

  directions but I was just testing it

  when I wanted to get out of that screen

  it actually took me a few a few minutes

  to navigate my way out so I I all the

  things that you would expect from a

  google mapping program from the mapping

  back end whether it be street view or

  directions are located yourself finding

  nearby stuff all seems awesome and

  that's the critical stuff you know

  that's what they're great at mcdonough

  great job when it comes to navigating

  the map I maps project i actually found

  it was almost slower for me to navigate

  to the app and it was to navigate

  through space using the app I I think

  it's pretty good at you know I i do

  think that one of the things that's

  interesting i know a lot not a lot of

  people have both things you know you

  have to be like a gadget nerd to do it


  I I think it's better designed than the

  Android Maps app the Android Maps app

  that they did it's very similar it's

  certainly far more similar than it used

  to be but the iOS one is cleaner it's

  it's sort of you know they're not trying

  to shoehorn the android looking feeling

  they're into iOS they are writing apps

  purposefully for the iphone and I guess

  the other thing i find interesting about

  it as that it i think google you know in

  this whole saga google lost something

  because it was really really get what

  they really wanted to collect location

  data of for both you as a user so they

  can serve you targeted ad and

  collectively because it's sort of this

  crowd sourcing that that makes the

  information accurate and up-to-date and

  relevant and they lost something by not

  being the default data provider for all

  iOS users on and apple i'm sure i mean

  certainly doesn't like the perception

  but i'm sure that they actually want

  their own mapping product to be as good

  or better than google's and they don't

  have that right i mean it's you know

  that I think it's better than the

  reputation as you has no conventional

  wisdom holds but it's still it's you

  know clearly not as good especially for

  search which is a big use of maps so

  Google didn't get what they want they've

  lost being the default for all iOS users

  and apple hadn't been able to do what it

  wants which is provide a best-of-breed

  mapping experience but the result as of

  now it's it's one of those cases where I

  feel like the users win because the

  users get an apple maps app that's

  probably the best design app right like

  you were saying about the navigation and

  if you want google maps now you have a

  google maps app that's better than what

  what we had before this whole thing

  started because now it has vector map

  tiles that load faster and it does turn

  by turn direction which we didn't have


  right now I think that's certainly the

  broadest level that's that's the story

  here the users have one and

  google got better at design and we got a

  better product and we have the good maps

  and right and I feel like a part of the

  excoriation that Apple went through was

  short-sighted in that you know it was a

  three-month period where ios6 had

  shipped and last night when the google

  maps app became available and so you

  could say well yeah it kind of things

  were kind of it if you if you use the

  you know lived in a place where the maps

  for more accurate or you use them for a

  purpose that the apples want was really

  just worse or bad or you know literally

  put you in the middle of nowhere instead

  of what you wanted to go

  that sucks but it was it just a

  three-month blip in the history of years

  and now afterwards it's actually better

  for users right the excoriation was that

  Apple put its own interest above those

  of users i think in the long run I

  iphone users are now better off than

  they ever were before when it comes to

  mapping which is sort of curious right

  wasn't the whole controversy the google

  didn't want to share the turn-by-turn

  directions with iOS users also yeah and

  well but what they wanted to do it was a

  you know it's classic negotiation

  situation where they it's not that they

  were outright refusing it's that in

  exchange for it they wanted Apple to to

  have that built-in maps app do more with

  google services like provide a way to

  login to the google location

  whatever it's called what to call i

  forget but or Google+ or something like

  that so that I could do more they wanted

  more information about you no

  identifiable information from users so

  Apple didn't want to give them that for

  their own reasons competitive reasons so

  Apple didn't want to give them the data

  but without the data google didn't want

  to give them the turn-by-turn in the

  vector map tiles and I think that if

  anybody made a mistake i think that what

  that the people at Google who ultimately

  had to make this decision

  i overestimated apples willingness to

  just say fuck you where we're going

  ahead with our own Maps whether they're

  worse or not because i think that they

  had an accurate sense of how good apples

  Maps we're going to be it was sort of it

  wasn't really a secret but I mean I knew

  I mean like a baby from a lot more

  double as of WWDC write WC is when this

  maps thing was announced I everybody new

  Apple though it was working on maps I

  mean they'd the acquisitions of mapping

  companies over the last few years you

  know our public knowledge

  you don't buy you know spend 20-30

  hundred million dollars on mapping

  companies and not be building your own

  mapping system but there was a general

  sense that-that apples Maps weren't yet

  up to snuff

  they will you know maybe they were good

  okay but not great and I think google

  knew that and I think google sort of

  internally estimated well there's no way

  that their maps are good enough yet so

  they're not they're going to they'll

  come to us they'll they'll give in and

  you know in exchange for the vector and

  the turn-by-turn will get more

  integration with are you know

  google+ and stuff like that right and I

  think that's why it did that you know

  this that google maps app wasn't ready

  on day one is that they thought that

  they had like at least another year but

  ultimately i feel like you know it it's

  all worked out i don't think that I feel

  like people are missing that I don't see

  that in the coverage of this

  yeah I mean that was pretty much my

  taking next draft was that everybody

  here wins except for the guys who were

  working on the Apple maps soon

  well and even they do now you know it's

  even i mean i don't know that they win

  but it's it certainly it you know they

  know how high the bar has been raised

  right right so i don't know i think it's

  you know I think it's wrong to think

  that Apple still that the situation now

  for iOS users is that they're screwed on


  I think it's better oh no doubt no doubt

  the users are coming out good here they

  had three months of a little bit of

  frustration for some users here and

  there probably outweighed by the amount

  of discourse and fun that they had

  around the issue and now they have the

  maps product they want and better than


  it's pretty good place to end the show

  Dave Pell thank you for for being here

  people can find out more pride number

  one website you want people to go to

  they want if they want more Dave Pell go

  to go to next draft dot-com and run you

  could find out about the app you can

  find out how to sign up for the

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  with with the top part of his skull

  coming off his head

  it's good selling point is any thanks I

  really appreciate it