The Talk Show

26: Steve Wouldn’t Eat An Energy Bar, with John Moltz


  multi had the had the article in the

  magazine i really liked that I of i say

  this with the no hyperbole but it's my

  favorite article from the magazine

  Wow five issues and I should just I

  should get off right now

  now it's pretty let's get all downhill

  from here so wait this conversation gets

  any better than that

  yeah i'm not going to spoil it but

  everybody if you don't read in the

  magazines or not because you're not

  right yeah there's some great

  there's just been some great pieces in

  there Jason snails piece this week was

  particularly good you know what I

  haven't read that yet because I yeah

  well you wait was because that's why

  that's why you think mine is better and

  why you think mines the best because i

  read yours is just don't question is is

  better i was an issue behind so I read

  the issue for and then I opened up issue

  5 and I read your piece and chuckled and

  then I opened his and I saw where it was

  going and it was real late i was like

  sleepy and I was like you know what this

  is not i'm going to read this one

  yeah little heavy but yeah yeah it's

  great stuff going on there

  ya know it's really it's like it's a

  good read every every time it comes out

  to every two weeks right

  every two weeks i believe ya and way you

  know what I guess I i have a you know I

  guess I'm just it's weird because it's

  like a big circle of my friends like

  rights you know Glenn was on the show

  two weeks ago that you're on what's his

  name has been on already

  you know the guy marker and marking on

  the show that guy huh

  I but it's you know it's just really

  good and I think it's funny how it its

  it has come out and it's a new thing and

  so what five issues two weeks so it's

  like been like 10 weeks like a month and

  i had two months two and a half months

  or so since it debuted I and it's like

  starting to settle in and you know I I

  don't think it's a hit but it's clearly

  successful it succeeded Marco is

  admitted that it's you know it's it's

  above you know like the minimum number

  of paying subscribers that he thought he


  yeah on but probably shouldn't point out

  that publishing on the ipad is dead

  right and now public

  and the ipad is dead because you know

  it's too bad it's too bad he got in

  because it's a because it just died and

  it's just there's a couple of things

  that to me make it so it is such a neat

  fit to compare and contrast with the

  daily even just starting with the names

  you know that they have this both have

  these sort of the overly generic names

  right the magnetizing the daily one of

  them is this huge 25 million dollar your

  operation from you know what most people

  many people would argue is like the most

  evil people publishing corporation in

  the world Rupert Murdoch's News Corp and

  then the other is you know tiny little

  one-man operation it equally evil but I

  you know is it to man-to-man now to now

  to announce you man yeah so closer

  inching closer to 2 News Corp right and

  I just you know it's ji I was I

  shouldn't be surprised but I was

  surprised at when the dailies demise was

  announced I guess on monday this week

  and I just how quickly so many people

  jump to the conclusion that it was proof

  that I pattern publishing is impossible

  I mean that's actually would feel

  examine you actually use the word

  impossible yeah yeah I think he's a

  little he's a little chase and about it


  to his credit he is a they noted that

  maybe he was you want too far

  yeah and you know and he's normally

  either really really a fairly reasonable

  guy right yeah it's very good

  it's really be no he-he's you know usual

  financial coverage is spot-on is one of

  my favorites I thought he covered the

  whole unfortunate fiscal collapse and

  and almost right black hole cratering of

  the entire global economy for years ago

  as well as anybody I really did I really

  felt like he was one of my go-to guys to

  like tell me what the hell's going on

  and tell me that I shouldn't just the

  action and get gold and put it in put it

  in my mattress and buy a shotgun you

  haven't done that now I did my dad's


  like I was everything ok ok you seem

  like you might do that you know you seem

  like the type it was you know I

  considered it

  yeah well it's worth thinking about I

  but yeah he really jumped to the

  ultimate conclusion that it was proof

  that its stead it's impossible and i

  think you know it's it all comes back to

  a lot of these other theories about

  disruption that that you know that like

  the whole clayton christensen which is a

  book called yeah you know the guy i

  don't know that guy and he got this look

  them up i believe I'm drawing a blank on

  facebook name is it just looks a big fan

  disruptive innovation yeah is that the

  that's not the name of the book though

  that's not the end of the book okay

  innovators dilemma

  oh yeah okay i mean i know that 1i yeah

  I haven't read it or no other yeah I've

  heard people talk about it which is all

  i need

  that's right yeah but his big theory is

  always that you know it's you know it's

  like mammals vs dinosaurs stating that

  the disruption always comes from the low

  end you know needs these great case

  examples about like what put like steel

  industry you know how to business were

  these little like places that just

  melted down junk steel and the bday

  eventually got so good at it so

  efficient added that they ended up you

  know being a better way to battle far

  cheaper way to manufacture high-quality

  steel than the traditional steel

  foundries and etcetera etcetera etcetera

  but that you're always a disruption

  always is dismissed by the entrenched

  because it looks inconsequential or

  cheaper low-end or something like that

  it and i think it seems likely that the

  eventual disruption of apple if it ever

  happens would be similar right yeah I

  from so much some corner of the

  unexpected corners and not from

  Microsoft not from google write some

  other place right some other place that

  you would never expect and that will be

  dismissed for you know possibly for good

  reasons you know right i was talking

  about this before but he was like in The

  New Yorker

  profile of clayton christensen David's

  you know he said one of the things that

  you know he's wrong about and I love a

  guy anybody you get big points in my

  book anybody who's you know supposed to

  be a guru but talks about the times that

  they're wrong to me that's like two

  pluses right there you know in terms of

  excellent absolutely and he admits he

  was totally wrong about the iphone he

  predicted when the iphone first came out

  that it wasn't really gonna have much of

  an effect on the phone industry because

  it was a high-end product that it you

  know that that disruption was going to

  come from the low end and in hindsight

  years later he admits he was wrong

  because what he didn't understand at

  first and i think this is brilliant

  insight is that the iphone wasn't really

  a high-end phone it was a low-end

  portable computer right it's like this

  crummy little three-and-a-half inch

  screen laptop but because it's so small

  and tiny and lightweight and lasts all

  day and has wireless internet everywhere

  you go it completely disrupted the

  computer industry and the phone industry

  at the same time because you didn't need

  a phone if you had the right which is I

  think a brilliant way of looking at it

  and you know I so i'm not saying that

  Marcos the magazine is going to itself

  put that other magazines out of business

  but to me it's the exact sort of thing

  that fits in with that line of

  disruptive thinking know that it's it

  things like the magazine are where the

  future is and I can totally see how if

  you pitch that to somebody it you know

  news corporation or time or something

  like that that they would just dismiss

  it and i would say it's just some guy

  every two weeks putting out 5 750 word

  essays that's that's nothing

  you know that what would you know that

  has nothing to do with what we're trying

  to do and i would say no it has

  everything with what you're trying to do

  which in a nutshell is exactly what's

  been wrong with the traditional

  publishing industries response to the


  yep I mean it's like that's all it's the

  whole thing it's the whole thing all

  over again I mean no one's going to

  trust no instrument trusts blogs no one

  trusts independent reporters they are

  they want a big organization like like

  ours right with editors and managers and

  a whole advertising department right and

  the same way to that that most most

  traditional if you get if you just tell

  me you don't tell me the name of the the

  publication but just say this is a

  big-name publication with national

  circulation they've been around for a

  long time I is their website any good

  i'm gonna guess now right that they tend

  to most existing traditional

  publications have really bad websites

  without yeah I almost with almost

  without exception and they were

  especially bad at first like nineteen

  ninety-six ninety-seven ninety-eight

  they just didn't get it and you know I

  remember I mean and and there were big

  ideas from I even knew things things

  that weren't rooted in the past but

  which were from people rooted in the

  past like and I'm thinking of slate in

  particular right which was all staffed

  with people from traditional backgrounds

  in weekly magazines and that if I think

  it was wasn't it jointly with Microsoft

  at first yeah I think so yeah it was

  like Microsoft and when Microsoft in the

  nineties resent to trying to become like

  a media company when they when they got

  involved with NBC for MSNBC and they

  co-founded a magazine on and the thing I

  remember thinking was so weird is icon

  slate debuted is it

  it debuted it was all that was was a

  website there was no print version is

  just a website and yet they still had

  weekly issues and end it you would like

  be like wednesday and here's the new

  issue of slave come back next wednesday

  right that you get locked into this way

  of thinking and slate you know it's

  still around they're still doing good

  work but they you know they obviously

  abandoned that issue idea and it's hard

  it's really really hard when you think

  in terms of issues it's really hard to

  sort of zoom back and and think about a

  new medium right so that uh only one of

  the questions I wanted to talk to you

  about what which have been thinking

  about just the last few days because

  everybody keeps talking about Apple

  apples eventual decline right so many

  people think

  it's already happening for some strange

  reason that i was beyond my

  comprehension but I think about this and

  I wonder if it's going to be easier for

  us to see that or harder for people like

  us to see that you know that is a very

  good question i do think about that all

  the time I i would like to think that we

  would see it that you and I and yeah you

  know the people who like I like to have

  on the show

  OMG but i wonder i do wonder that

  whether we've got even you know that we

  think we're being i like to think that

  we would see it I can them and one of

  the reasons i think that is because in

  the past few weeks there have been a

  couple pieces published that are sort of

  thoughtful looks at things that Apple is

  good at and not good at and I i forget

  that the name of someone who who you'd

  like to just yesterday the day before

  but it was about apples in a bit seeming

  inability to get cloud services patrick

  thompson ya done really correctly and a

  night and I thought your conclusion was

  was exactly right that it doesn't seem

  like it

  buying Twitter is really is really the

  right solution to that problem but it

  but it's true it seems to be for

  whatever reason a blind spot for them

  and then the other piece was I Michael

  ops piece on forestall being really

  leaving and how innovation really often

  needs argument me and that he wondered

  if getting rid of forestall means that

  there would be less argument and if that

  was a good thing for innovation or bad

  thing for renovation right then maybe

  the contention within the upper ranks

  maybe it was unpleasant day-to-day to

  deal with but maybe it was the best

  thing for ya

  maybe it was the best thing for the

  company going forward

  yeah and I i just love those both those


  my head together because I thought that

  they were thoughtful pieces on

  ok maybe these are blind spots of apples

  that could be concerning the future

  without being over-the-top you know

  apples doomed right is and this is the

  obvious sign of their decline i I've

  I've mentioned this before

  ah I don't think for long it's been a

  long time but probably on the show maybe

  it was the old show with Dan but that I

  have long thought that it's like this

  sort of i was theory is giving it way

  too much credence but let's call it my

  theory of first impressions and that

  we're hooked up evolutionarily primarily

  all of the things we really ever cared

  about where a small circle of the other

  human beings you ever possibly encounter

  know there's that that number of you

  know like a hundred and fifty is like

  most number of people you can have any

  kind of emotional bond with and we're

  hooking up to or 55 in my case the eggs

  right there with your body for real

  before I was exaggerating its gonna make

  a joke about that there's a reason that

  we generally have one kitten

  nah it's always it's you actually to but

  I at but my theory is more or less that

  we're hooked up to you meet other people

  if somebody hadn't met before

  you should have a good instinct that you

  should be able to make a good first

  impression and accurate first impression

  is this someone you should trust is it

  someone you shouldn't trust is it

  someone you like and you know not that

  we're never wrong and not that first

  impression sometimes are unsurprisingly

  misleading but in general where we're

  really good at that and as evolution and

  there's really strong evolutionary

  reasons to do to be like that but I also

  think that first impressions solidified

  very quickly and and when you're dealing

  with people people don't change that

  much right once you get to know someone

  don't even think i'm not even talking

  about like your

  30 second first impression but like I

  just met you you're the new guy in the

  office and you know we meet and we you

  know the course of a couple of weeks we

  get to know each other 10 years from now

  you're not going to be that different

  right you're still the same person

  unless you know you get hit the head or

  something like that but that's often

  very hard to deal with like if you've

  ever met anybody who's had a head injury

  it's it's often it will throw you off

  because you think that they're the same

  and because they're not isn't it it's

  really hard for families to deal with

  that I mean I know trying to make light

  of it i and i think that a lot of people

  when it comes

  we're not hooked up to deal with

  something like Apple which is an

  incredibly different company than what

  it used to be but so many people

  especially businesspeople investors and

  business writers invested writers and

  stuff like that have this impression of

  apple from the nineties that is that

  still what they see is apple and there's

  just nothing that's going to it we're

  gonna have to wait until they get sold

  that they retire before it really the

  company really shakes that right and

  that it's still seen as this little guy

  or the upstart or the the the deviant

  from the norm in the industry and so you

  still see people talking about Apple

  like that when Apple gets in trouble

  that they could go under go down or just

  completely collapse like that's actually

  impossible at this point apple is so big

  and so successful that the worst thing

  that would happen i think is stagnation

  right like sort of more or less what

  happened to microsoft and that's and

  that's the other thing that people tend

  to do is they they want to apply then

  they always want to do this they want to

  apply something that happened in the

  past they want they want to say that's

  the pc wars between the mac and windows

  are exactly the same as what's going on

  between iOS and Android right now and

  none of these things ever repeat

  themselves exactly the same way right

  and and they want to say that

  oh my god Apple's the new microsoft

  right I or that androids the new windows

  and iOS is young man

  again but you know that the numbers are

  so staggeringly different that it

  doesn't make any sense to think of it

  that way and I also in the whole

  industry is different too i mean it's

  not as hard to code I think I don't know

  I don't know the reasons for this

  particularly because then I'm not a

  coder but back in the nineties it was

  much more of a trial to try and move

  code between to eat between windows on

  the mac then and it i think it is today

  trying to do it just seems like it's

  easier for the day there's a lot more

  cross development going on right now I

  definitely think so and I don't know why

  I like i said i don't know why that that

  is but it doesn't seem like it's as big

  a deal to try and say okay what we wrote

  this for for iOS what's right for

  android or vice versa

  whereas nobody did that back in very

  very limited number of large

  applications were quoted for both

  platforms back in the nineties yeah i

  think that there's some that's a good

  guys actually probably good question for

  the whole for like a whole show but i

  think part of it is that that back then

  computers were so meager technically so

  much slower cpu so such by today's

  standards such incredibly tiny amounts

  of ram

  yeah that you really kind of had to

  write it right good software down to the

  metal arc is closed above the metal as

  you can get to make it efficient and

  that it was really hard to have like an

  abstraction layer that was cross

  platform because it involved even a

  little bit of overhead it you just

  couldn't afford that that any sort of

  inefficiency like that I but that is a

  good segue that this whole idea of of of

  Apple you know what would an apple

  declined look like and it is getting rid

  of forestall to alleviate contention

  good or bad in that direction leads

  right into the probably the biggest

  thing this week is this extensive

  interview with Tim Cook in bloomberg

  well what is it businessweek Bloomberg I

  don't know what you know what do you

  call it

  Bloomberg's uber this is bloomberg

  businessweek I get really confused about

  too because they look totally different

  but Bloomberg owns businessweek and the

  interview I guess is in the magazines

  probably be the cover story I and they

  broke it across 11 pages you have to

  click 11 different web pages but then if

  you go to you can get the

  exact same article on one nice pit don't

  understand is talking about the reality

  oh yeah but they cover that in the

  article there's a part here where that

  he sort of asked about forestall and

  what does he say here I the question is

  the past few weeks you replace two

  members of your senior executive t

  mobile software head Scott Forstall and

  retail chief john browett how do these

  moves make apple better which is a

  polite way of saying what was wrong and

  that's actually that's not me adding

  that aside that's actually the question

  asked cook book says the key in the

  change that you're referencing is my

  deep belief that collaboration is

  essential for innovation and I didn't

  just start believing that I've always

  believed that it's always been a core

  belief that Apple Steve very deeply

  believe this

  so the changes it's not a matter of

  going from no collaboration to

  collaboration we have an enormous level

  of collaboration that Apple but it's a

  matter of taking it to another level

  you look at what we are great at there

  are many things but the one thing we do

  which I don't know what else does is

  integrate hardware software and services

  in a way that most consumers begin to

  not differentiate anymore they just care

  that the experiences fantastic blah blah

  blah i wait but then he talks all right

  here's what he says Mr Kim cook

  continuing he says you don't have silos

  built up where everybody is trying to

  optimize their silo and figuring out how

  to grab turf and all of these things

  makes all of our jobs easier so we're

  freed up to focus on the things that

  truly matter i mean that to me doesn't

  mention forestall but clearly that's

  talking about forestall who had the the

  the silo iOS yeah and kind and it also

  sounds like Microsoft to me

  not that i know that well how Microsoft

  is structured and and if that kind of

  thing goes on but they do have it that

  that review system where they fit

  everybody into a bell curve right and

  you know it even if you did great

  if they think someone did better than

  you you're going to get forced down so

  it's like 10 there's like a top 10% that

  does really well there's the meat of the

  bell curve that's eighty percent and

  then the other ten percent of all the

  way to force down to the bottom

  yeah what's that called actually wanted

  to talk more strength forced ranking is

  one thing

  yeah stack ranking or something like

  yeah I actually wanted to talk to lop

  about that would have to happen back on

  the show but i forgot to when he was on

  because you know is he's like wait

  the only guy I know who knows anything

  about engineering management

  yeah but i would love to get his opinion

  on that but it's it does seem it seems

  like one of those be careful what you

  test for on type warnings like the idea

  is that if you have a five-person if

  your product manager microsoft you have

  a five-person team when it comes time to

  give the reviews you get you get like

  one gold star to give out to goods and I

  have to give out to too bad no sad faces

  you have to so if you've recruited a

  team of five all-stars and you know

  which you would think would be a great

  way to make a great product you've got

  to give two of them bad reviews you have

  to and so what you end up getting

  everybody seems to agree is that it

  doesn't really reward excellence at what

  you're doing it rewards excellence at

  getting your product manager to give you

  the gold star

  yeah right you're gonna take your gaming

  the game i think it's broader than that

  I don't think they may force it down to

  the like the team level so i don't think

  i don't think you get a situation

  whether you were five people and and

  somebody gets screwed and even if all

  five didn't know it does honestly Reed

  is that right is that right really ok

  it really is and as I work someplace

  that was going to implement the system

  and people were just up in arms about it

  and eventually backed off of it and now

  it was it was going to be more corporate

  yday from when I remember at least our

  implementation of it was going to be

  more corporate one so I said yeah yeah

  yeah that's how it works and so you end

  up with which is

  we're almost to where it let's say you

  are really good at what you do you're

  really good programmer but you're

  thinking about switching to a new team

  well it's to your interest to go to that

  team if you know there's a couple of

  turkeys on because if you're it just

  looking out for your career because

  you're gonna shine

  whereas if you're looking at a team or

  you know there's a couple of other

  superstars there you might think well

  this might hurt my career because I I

  don't know that I can I don't know that

  I can get a ranking better than those

  two guys because they're awesome

  yeah just seems terrible it seems

  counterproductive and now but it's also

  true and i think it's an interesting

  contrast though at the senior management

  level though where Microsoft is

  organized in a way that I think most

  companies are by-product divisions right

  Steven Sinofsky was the head of windows

  8 right and he had nothing to do with

  the phone like I remember asking him

  because I got to speak to him a little

  bit at the thing in New York a couple

  weeks ago at the windows 8 launch event

  I and they had done a thing i think was

  thursday in New York they were debuting

  windows 8 and then monday in San

  Francisco they were debuting windows

  phone 8 and i justjust offhandedly I

  asked if he was you know just you know a

  way to chat about the weather and

  traveled it did he have to hop on a

  plane and go all the way back to the

  west coast for the monday thing and he

  was nine I have nothing to do with that

  so he wasn't even go into it and I kind

  of thought that you know but they're the

  Apple is is organized in a very opposite

  way especially now that forestall Scott

  like maybe forestall was the equivalent

  of Sinofsky was in charge of an

  operating system iOS um but now it's not

  like that at all

  you know Johnny I've is in charge of all

  design design of everything your

  shoulder is in charge of all marketing

  doesn't matter if you have you know

  Apple is in charge of iphone marketing

  ipad marketing math marketing if Apple

  comes out with something totally new

  they come out with the apple branded car

  will shoulder is in charge of the

  marketing of it right Johnny I've is in

  charge of the design of it uh it's a

  different or it's a very different

  organization and that you know i think

  it's it's it's a open question whether


  that's the better way to do it yeah the

  counterpoint I thought of two locks

  argument is that it because when you

  reach a point where the person one of

  the people creating the argument is so

  difficult that you either lose you it

  becomes harder to get good people in the

  other positions right because a lot of

  people don't want to deal with that crap

  they don't have a don't have to like

  have an argument every time they go into

  a meeting and it and i think that you

  know it had something you know I mean I

  played a part in the the thermostat boy

  with Tony Fadell Tony Fadell him leaving

  and and I think it seemed like it was

  playing a part in Big Bob Mansfield


  I am so glad you could call it that but

  i always call in five minutes

  yeah in a different way that this is

  played out has been a little

  surprisingly open for apple right like

  it seems like the Mansfield thing is is

  it just became kind of obvious right

  right and I don't know that they were so

  open about it necessarily as it just was

  like a hope

  Oh mansfield on his way out of 4 stars

  leaving me that's gonna stick around for

  a little while and you can have your

  head up a new set up an entirely new


  yeah I but there also were reports i

  forget who had it but somebody had like

  you know sources who wouldn't be named

  different familiar with the situation as

  they say that that Jony ive was at ya

  was refusing to go into any meeting were

  forced always gonna be yeah and i think

  they said the same about mansfield in

  the or maybe at least he didn't I got

  220 yeah meetings with forced all right

  I and so that you know I while I

  understand the argument yet I've got


  you know I like a good argument but when

  you have someone is so difficult that


  he's actually pushing other people you

  know very talented people and

  particularly you think talk about

  mansfield in and cook talks about him in

  that interview he is really probably the

  best hardware manager anywhere in the in

  the technology industry

  yeah he's just got to be right at me


  they make and pick the best hardware and

  the guy seems pretty bright and since

  he's been there they really have made an

  enormous number of innovations you know

  yeah just thinking about you know this

  whole move to these systems on a chip

  I'm the way that they deal with

  batteries along yeah yeah I mean we made

  fun of that when they when they did the

  that the Liberty gives the last macworld

  right where we're shoulder was the

  keynote and the big announcement was

  whatever it was was that there were

  integrating the battery we no longer

  have removable batteries and write

  17-inch macbook pro and they did the big

  video was was a video about battery

  technology right which was really you

  know not exist as exciting as the two

  years earlier when they announced the

  iphone obviously but at the same time it

  turned out to be a better battery

  technology is a really important part of

  their business

  yeah it's you know there's a

  self-congratulatory angle on all those

  behind the scenes you know talking to

  his Jony ive talking about how beautiful

  it is Bob Mansfield you know talking

  about how amazing this battery is and

  there's sort of a who cares aspect to it

  i mean there's a reason why they show it

  to the press at these things even though

  they're superhot production guys and

  they don't they're not like when they

  put the commercials on TV for Christmas

  they're not showing they're not trying

  to get people excited about the battery

  integration with every great man

  ok like that Monday Night Football ad

  for with big pot man still talking about

  a battery or did or maybe they did the

  ones that may be the closest they've

  come to that was when they first switch

  to intel processors and they had that

  thing with the postal service song you

  have God they had it they had a

  commercial at Apple gonna have the

  google this later the band the band the

  poster the band is called the postal

  yeah i know i know there or maybe that

  maybe it was like a ripoff it was a

  argue is arguably a ripoff of some music

  video had a commercial that showed like

  cpus coming down an assembly line you


  with these yeah robotic things cutting

  them up and it was a regular media

  I don't know but anyway that was maybe

  the closest they came yeah was trying to

  get people excited about intel cpus I'm

  but it is interesting because i do think

  there's insight to be gleaned from these

  things about what Apple honestly thinks

  is important and what they're proud of

  my mom

  I you know it they're they're very quiet

  they don't say much but when they do say

  things i do think and I think it's one

  of the things a lot of people don't

  understand about Apple there they're

  surprisingly forthcoming I i keep

  thinking I haven't written about it but

  I keep thinking about it goes also going

  back to switch from powerpc to Intel it

  was a WWDC keynote it did take everybody

  by surprise everyone know you know it's

  long been rumored but you know it was

  only like the friday before when the

  Wall Street Journal said yeah this is

  going to happen and everybody was sort

  of like what was that

  how's that going to work and onstage

  talking about it Steve Jobs explanation

  was more or less this argument about

  power her energy and performance / not

  just your performance but performance /

  energy consumption and that this was the

  future of computing and that these intel

  cpus they were switching to gave them so

  much more computing power per watt of

  energy burn which if you think about his

  and he was very passionate about it and

  it was almost like come on Steve but if

  you think about it isn't that exactly

  like like shouldn't the guy who listen

  the most intently to that shouldn't have

  been Paul Otellini right because isn't

  that exactly where Intel is now found

  itself behind this every yeah and that's

  this whole revolution with these arm

  processors for phones and tablets is is

  not sure performance right i mean you

  know that the high-end ipad 4 is in

  terms of like benchmarking way slower

  and the cheapest macbook right it's not

  it's not that fast as it just as sure

  processor it's about battery life and

  this this new division of performance

  versus energy consumption and heat right

  and whens cook look at Steve Jobs really

  laid it all out on the line back in i

  don't when was that 2006 2005 mean

  really like such a belt it out

  yeah what does could call he didn't in

  that little video so NBC also had a

  short cut of what is gonna be on tonight

  right as i think it's on tonight

  yes it's on tonight on the rock-hard

  show right on Brian way my rock hard

  isn't that the name of the show and now

  it's not as its I don't know I really

  don't know

  ok let me look it up it's brian williams

  rockecenter yeah yeah yeah alright Brian

  Williams rock hard as a different show

  that's a different show it's on later

  because ego that was he called the

  processors because they had a funny word

  for it doesn't say process races like

  brain or something

  engine engine i think the eyes are you

  talking about i think thats is what I

  think you talked about the operating

  system not the processor because it

  because he said it's made in the USA

  that must mean that I think he means

  this but that the engine is the it i

  don't know where are the processors

  maybe they bought that they're designed

  they designed them

  yes they bought that company and I guess

  I thought they also made them it's all

  very secretive but an hour samsung is

  still making them for you know that's a

  whole awkward relationship with with

  Samsung that they've got this almost

  Shakespearean sort of duality now and

  then I guess I know Samsung has I got

  chipped fab in Texas where they make

  some but I don't know if they make them


  it does seem it seems kind of crazy like

  the way everything hopscotch is all

  around where they make the

  last in Kentucky and then send it over

  to China and they make the CPUs in Texas

  and then send them over to China and

  then they put them all together and then

  send the phones back to the US I thought

  he was talking about the operating

  system maybe you're right cabbie was

  talking I just talked about the

  processors but I oh I don't know it and

  I could be there

  I don't know yeah but that's the other

  thing that he announced is that they're

  gonna start trying to do a little more

  manufacturing in the United States and

  today there was also announcement that

  Foxconn is going to so I don't know if

  those two things are the same

  oh really seems like yeah that Foxconn

  is going to open or do more

  manufacturing in the u.s. mean I don't

  know if they doing here you're currently

  but so we're gonna get some of that

  great foxconn job so if you're looking

  for a sweatshop job it's not really a

  sweatshop but yeah yeah he doesn't wait

  another 10 13 another one to file under

  be careful what you wish for

  yeah right way yeah we will bring those

  jobs back to America this sucks I and

  that's the other thing that I I feel

  fairly confident that someone will

  predict that Apple's decline it you know

  another sign of apples impending decline

  is that they're bringing jobs United

  States anything they do differently is a

  sign that they're declining right right

  i could see i mean i can see sort of

  your argument there because you'd be

  saying well that means they're gonna

  have to be more expensive and you know

  whatever see there's there is a there is

  room for a reasonable argument but the

  same time it I think I and this is the

  sort of the whole problem with these

  arguments is that because of apples

  track record and because it still has

  basically the same core of good

  executives that it had and the and the

  right guy leading the company i trust

  their ability to execute and

  to accept all these up counter-arguments

  that's to say that the company is surely

  in decline you have to sort of throw

  that out you have to say no only you

  know Steve Jobs was the only one that

  was worth of damage the company and

  everybody else is a mouth breathing

  right number so I don't get I mean

  obviously right actually I don't get

  that and I think the I mean I was your

  private was your overall impression of

  the of the interview I thought it was


  that was pretty good for how these

  things are are done

  yes to certain degree these are all puff

  pieces he wasn't really throwing

  anything terribly difficult but it would

  but it also wasn't complete softballs

  right like ideally we you know you'd

  love to get some yeah they know that you

  didn't bother asking anything about

  future products right you have ideally

  to satisfy our curiosity would like to


  stuffed to a level of detail that is

  outside apples interest in sharing right

  and Tim Cook has not added in bold and

  so he's not going to do that but I feel

  like in terms of the line of what he

  might be willing to talk about

  I felt like like that the interview is

  very well done and that it went it went

  up to that line and kind of filled today

  yeah right like you're not going to the

  apples not going to let somebody follow

  a product development team around for

  six months and document exactly how they

  actually do it i thought one of the most

  interesting tidbits IM it makes sense if

  you think about it but I hadn't thought

  about it this way was very said that

  that eighty percent of the company's

  revenue from this corner is coming from

  products that were released within the

  last 60 days

  yeah which is its kind of amazing

  we don't really yeah you really think

  about that because they did turn the

  whole ipad line over right and and what

  do you have the ipod too right oh that's

  just true that's true but i suspect i

  very much

  well I don't know that's interesting i

  wonder if you I mean I'm so i'm assuming

  that that statistic is yes he's not he's

  not over emphasize area

  now I that seemed bigger than it really


  right now but i don't think that the

  ipad i think it's a hit i think it's

  successful i and I've said before and

  that's the only reason why they would

  keep it around is that people are buying

  it right whether it's they're still

  buying it with the many available you

  know was that the price that was making

  them buy it or was it the fact that they

  really wanted the tenants eyes and they

  just want the cheapest one that it will

  know the answer to that if that I you

  know if it sticks around but you know I

  i think i think tim cook that sort of

  thing that I don't think he would miss

  speak about like he might I yeah I don't

  think so either you might get

  loosey-goosey about what's the quote

  engine of the phone like that might be

  something that he's just going to wave

  his hands about when it's comes to

  things like we're eighty percent of the

  revenues coming yeah yeah i think you

  know i think the guys like a living

  breathing spreadsheet

  yeah i guess probably scary how much of

  that stuff he's got his edited given


  yeah that was the thing i look kinda

  look for is he seemed it i'm trying to

  think of all the examples he used a word

  a buzzword that he apologized for using

  I detected a best-of-breed best-of-breed

  yeah i used it yet so yeah use that but

  at least copy of that with st. by saying

  that he hated it right eye and he there

  was one other sort of buzz worthy thing

  that he used that I would you know I

  mean it's stupid to do this but I didn't

  I thought what will if that was

  something that jobs would have said but

  then the other i was pleased that he

  hears the word crappy been talking about

  we're talking about keyboards on

  netbooks and I thought that was it seems

  you know I you know I'd look for a

  little clues about his is characterized

  guess yeah just to see what kind of guy

  is yeah i guess that is the interesting

  thing one of the interesting things

  about him is that he is a bit of a

  cipher and I felt like the interview you

  know the what's his name Josh I want to

  give him credit because he didn't yeah

  yeah i i'm not a triangle is kind of got

  like a harder and we'll just call josh

  Josh to wrangle Randall gossamer Angeles

  yes for you're the perfect person to try

  and figure out how to pronounce this

  name yeah we go we should go like grade

  school style just call Josh t just ed


  mr. Josh yeah yeah brother John's in

  your in your class growing up

  oh yeah sure yeah we had three jon was

  touch-and-go China why is John not a

  popular name anymore it's a great name

  it's the best name I I was crazy to put

  a grill oh man I think Johnson invest

  John Adams got some great people but

  John Kennedy and it's a great name

  anyway but we had to we had three we had

  janji I was yours truly jaunty John are


  I wondered always wondered what we

  didn't do that had if you had two at the

  same initial ya i dont no matter how we

  would have a despite their to fight it


  yeah they put it up put them in a pit

  with a couple of sticks pointed sticks

  and let him go now I diet so no I always

  just I mean I mean not at that age and

  grade school age but I just eventually

  became bolts right so yeah same here

  i've always been molds

  yeah I've always been groomed yeah I let

  me do take a break and read a sponsor

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  to a thing that comes in the mail maybe

  it's you know got a bad rap as a holiday

  gift because of the the Christmas

  vacation I think I said that he got the

  cake of the Month Club my it's a beloved

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  both appalled that I didn't remember

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  I will talks coffee as a gift idea for

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  like you're giving somebody something

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  presuming that you've got someone in

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  and if they don't drink coffee

  I mean what's wrong with because it just

  came out the other thing it just came

  out last week that the more coffee you

  drink the better you are

  I don't know that's what I took four ya

  know that it's not the demonstrable be

  true right there was some kind of study

  came out that drinking copious amounts

  of coffee is on the whole good for your


  yeah and it's integral zoomed up being a

  good you're writing a good weblog right

  now exactly i mean it's it's what you

  know what and somebody else pointed out

  to me that on twitter that they said

  good piece on the daily but you missed

  what was surely the core of their

  failure that they obviously did not have

  I over-caffeinated fizzy water

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  yeah i would put the coffee first

  frankly I mean I'd if I can we have one

  of the 3i would we put the coffee first

  I could get my work done with the shitty

  keyboard and with flat water or juice or

  something like that

  not really sure how I didn't get

  anything going without the coffee honks

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  if you're lazy like me you don't have to

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  show this is my thing for Christmas that

  for myself that I'm I'm trying to trying

  to arrange is to up my coffee game

  yeah and i think this is going to be an

  integral integral part of this because I

  I got on my on my Amazon wish list is

  the air be aeropress yeah and I gotta

  get I gotta organize and I'm switching

  to talks to

  I when I was out for the the show that I

  did in Los Angeles with the sandwich and

  ryan Johnson and looper director couple

  shows ago because we did that we did

  that show right there in the same with

  studios there in Los Angeles one of the

  guys who works with Adam there it's at

  sandwich video JP volunteer to to make

  me a cup of coffee and I I was not

  familiar with the aeropress and of

  course there was talk because I believe

  they're not sure if I can say this but I

  think they're working on a sandwich

  video for talks haha so they're you know

  they're it's all part of the talks

  family and he made me the aeropress cup

  of coffee and it really was one of those

  like pulp fiction moments of like a damn

  that's good yeah I like wow like it

  really kind of like set me off like I

  lost my train of thought it's like this

  is making really really delicious

  the other thing too that's fun about

  getting into copy you can really kind of

  nerd out on it and it's it's not

  expensive you know like you're not you

  know they like I'm always afraid I don't

  I never drink wine because I'm afraid

  that if i get into it all of a sudden

  I'm buying $85 bottles and I I I don't

  want to get into something like that you

  know i mean like all you need is boiled

  water and coffee beans

  yeah right you can get like a nice

  little fussy cattle and it's you know

  what's what's a teakettle cost doesn't

  cost a lot of money and are not like get

  into some kind of thing where you're

  can't pay your amex every month I want

  to get one of you should have you should

  not have to do that I want to get a

  teakettle that has the long skinny spout

  have you seen that like this seems like

  all the real that that's the way you

  make fun of

  yeah it's got like a real skinny spot

  mine has a big fat spout that's like you

  know it's just like it unfussy tea

  kettle or no water kettle whatever you

  want to call it and I feel like I got it

  I got it up my teakettle game under tim

  cook drinks coffee that's it i would bet

  he seems like i don't know i don't know

  i would hope so

  yeah I don't know I say eats a lot of

  energy bars is that used to be the other

  thing that was in all the profiles of

  that easy gets in early leave late I he

  eats a lot of it eats a lot of energy

  bars Steve Jobs never would have eaten

  energy bars you know one of the other

  things company in decline

  actually I one of the little things i

  noticed in the article was a day and

  this time unless i skipped it they never

  actually got back to talking about John

  Browett noise no I don't think you did

  it like he really just focused on for

  stolen glossed over brown right it's

  this whole thing here with forestall and

  a big explanation which is really I

  think about as open as they were going

  to get about you know what was going on

  there i really do mean you know i mean

  obviously not going to get into

  specifics I any you know kind of went

  out of his way

  euphemistically not to mention forestall

  my name as i get gentleman's agreement

  all of this i who had the podcast where

  they were talking about the severance

  agreements think it was siracusa going

  on on hypercritical when I wanted first

  broke and he was talking about these

  there's like a term for these type of

  agreements it's like a gardeners clause

  or something like that a guard gardening

  severance or something like that and

  they really it's a tradition

  I you know what he said I had forgets

  for something like that but the gist of

  it is it's like an old term from

  england and the gist of it is that it's

  in the contract that the company if we

  decide to get rid of you we can pay you

  this gardeners thing where you just

  going to stay at home and garden garden

  but you're going to be on the payroll at

  your regular salary for a year but we

  don't want you to even come into the

  office come it but we're gonna but we

  don't want you to go to a competitor

  you know I tried to get one of those

  four years in its own little bit finally

  just got to quit

  it's one of those things where when you

  get to a certain level of achievement

  everything it's like it must be nice you

  know what I mean yeah you know what they

  call golden parachutes solution right I

  normal people when you get fired you

  know you know yeah you just get fired

  you get weeks right you get like two

  weeks of pay you get maybe if you're

  lucky you get four weeks of pay

  no I you know like when you reach the

  executive level and you get fired you

  get tens of millions of dollars that's

  right you know and i don't mean the lab

  I really don't mean like that sometimes

  I worry about things like I just think

  like it like I don't think Scott

  Forstall listens to the talk show but

  the odds that he listens to the talk

  show it's definitely somewhere above

  zero right i mean is maybe it's one

  percent chance right and so I I always

  sometimes I think like I don't want to

  sit here and God you know maybe he's at

  home you know what gardening right bored

  out of his mind

  Jesus Christ and listen to podcasts and

  then here we are laughing about the fact

  that he got fired I mean I don't I

  really don't mean to make light of it

  now i really do think you know in a way

  I think that there's a good sad story

  there where I think that this is a guy

  who's been taken away from his life's

  work and I I mean this without any I I'm

  not making fun of trying to be serious


  uh but you know it's not like the guys

  just get a better

  yeah he doesn't have to his family

  doesn't have to switch to the store

  brand cornflakes was it seems like I

  mean you know a guy like that he's gonna

  he's gonna do something else

  I mean he's gonna he's gonna land on the

  speed and it's not gonna be alright

  sitting around in his bathroom right

  watching Washington watching his shows

  for a couple years just watch it'll keep

  cycling into a spiral of cruising

  congressional Bill's got there was one

  about you and like we would like he's

  already talking and you know he's

  already out there talking to people like

  figuring out what the next things right

  there's a reason that he got to be the

  senior vice yeah exactly right you gotta

  get ready clawed his way up there but

  probably murdered a bunch of people to

  get there he's gonna going to do it


  god I really don't want to think about

  what how i would do something really but

  he stepped in and took took your blog

  away right

  yeah sorry the word there's nothing

  you're done every once in a while I like

  what I see words and I the word I'm

  seeing right now it's is in big big

  future of bold all caps says

  intervention haha but yea yea trip to

  the health clinic didn't do you have a

  do you have a martini glasses in your

  bathroom like we do

  look at that hey last night's martini

  glasses that ya know

  okay good you still got a ways to go


  ya gotta catch up i want to be there but

  i keep up with the multiples

  yeah I won't say that I don't

  occasionally lose one where various just

  don't take it into the bathroom with the

  other thing i noticed in the same

  segment so he did they never actually

  get back to talking about John brow it

  just seems like that was just like only

  ever I me and he barely talked about all

  I honestly though in a sense though if I

  had it if there's one complaint of my

  complaints one of the things that

  occurred to me and i don't think i don't

  know I I feel like I'm only good at

  finding these things afterwards i'm not

  saying I would have done a better job if

  Apple and said look you want an hour

  with tim cook and I've of course would

  have said yes but I don't know that I

  would have done a better job than this

  guy i really don't

  yeah because I just start drawing blanks

  I'm not good

  I i think very very slowly and I think

  to be an interview

  you got to think fast but it occurs to

  me though that I would have liked him to

  go back to browse because the browser

  thing to me is all on cook right like

  the the forestall situation is obviously

  been simmering literally for a decade

  right i mean force that's been there for


  I and you're as proud as something where

  he at you know he brought him in and add

  a turnaround shown the door right the

  whole thing with ron johnson leaving

  happened after Jobs died I you know and

  there's and I who knows whether there's

  any truth to return I think it's

  ridiculous but there's some speculation

  that that that Johnson wanted the CEO

  job at apple and that if you know when

  it was curtains gonna go to cook with

  any was out because there was no that

  doesn't seem that he doesn't seem like a

  good fit he doesn't it doesn't seem like

  it would have to be in the cards that

  the readouts guy would ever rise you

  know that if you know you can in theory

  you could see it like Johnny I've the

  design guy if he wanted to be CEO that


  you know it wouldn't play if they said

  hey you know hooks retiring jony ive's

  the new CEO i think that would play I I

  think Schiller would play you know sure

  and i and I've said this before it many

  times that he's you know what people

  think of his marketing is not what Apple

  thinks of his marketing he's not just in

  charge of ads you know and and stuff

  like that if you know what sugar does it

  would totally play that he could be the

  CEO like the the retail guy no matter

  how good their retail is it just doesn't

  play but anyway he did leave after Jobs

  was gone and so the whole thing of how

  do we replace ron johnson and keep the

  retail thing going was all on cook and

  it was you know as soon as it was

  announced everybody who is familiar with

  that those shitty stores that Brown ran

  in England I forget what they were

  called but everybody in the UK the

  announces and everybody in the UK who

  knew was like what the hell is Apple

  doing this customers suck

  yeah they're like the whole reason the

  apple stores are successful there like

  the anti apple stores and I was like

  well I don't know maybe the guy you know

  right that's what I thought too i was so

  I wanted to give you the benefit of the


  right i thought well maybe in turns out

  I was wrong no it turns out that the

  snap judgment from the people in England

  was exactly right

  I the guys like a hack which seems weird

  yeah just seems weird I kinda feel like

  if you got Tim cooked in front of you

  and you can ask him about it i feel like

  you know you something along the lines

  of look disguise stores in England he

  came from these stories that are unlike


  yeah what did you see that you thought

  might be right exactly right i think

  that would explain that initial decision

  right I feel like he could have held his

  feet to the fire their eyebrows a little

  bit where ya forestall thing you know

  they did cover it well but he didn't get

  back to proud I guess they think that

  that's the four-star things more

  interesting but and I can see that but

  it also in a way it's more interesting

  to figure out what happened with brown

  like how that does that went wrong right

  and I kind of feel like you know if

  there is like a you know like you said

  earlier like looking for chinks in the

  armor and yeah and yeah I could that

  would seem like a bigger one than I then

  the forestall situation right and I

  wonder about the you know it's obviously

  mostly speculative we don't know the

  internal but the speculation is that we

  do know that cook is a big numbers guy

  and he's an operations guy and you know

  we know that that some of the things

  that this proud guy did when he was in

  charge of apple retail seemed sort of

  operationally you know like cognac hours

  doing those tricks where you get you

  know make sure nobody gets more than 37

  and a half hours he taunted him his

  full-time employees and stuff like that

  anyway stuff that made the employees

  that wasn't good for the employees and

  sort of put like a if gone in that

  direction would make the stores the

  worst experience but and a bean counter

  level seemingly makes sense you know

  makes sense if you're looking at the

  store through an Excel spreadsheet

  instead of actually being in the store I

  and that's sort of like the fear with

  cook right that he's the numbers guy

  that he's gonna start running the

  company in a numbers focused way

  yeah right as opposed to Steve Jobs who

  you know he like came in and he was mad

  at the first stores opened up and he was

  pissed about like the scuff marks on the

  floors and

  so he like I don't know if you went to

  himself what the story is but they like

  went to Venice and got like some kind of

  like you can only get it in the Venice

  granite stone that they polished certain



  to make this that's how I that's what

  we're going to use for the floors from

  now on

  yeah right doesn't make any financial

  sense at all

  goddammit get some hot wax right but

  just goddamn band the floors are nice

  some italian yacht wax shiny floors up

  I i like the story about him talking to

  steve about being about taking over

  yeah and trying trying to fight right

  now but were eventually he kept asking

  him like you know is which one because

  he was going to jobs is gonna becomes

  chairman of the board and cook would be

  CEO right is that the way that is


  yeah and then he kept asking manager

  sure this is what you were doing it and

  finally he said I'm sure stop asking

  he all right now this is really you know

  is one of the best I I didn't want a

  block quote because it was a guy I

  didn't want to spoil it in the article

  its its way at the bottom so via the

  internet any of you out there started

  reading this long interview and cut got

  halfway to really stick with it I mean

  that's good

  here's the here's the party says this is

  cook talking one weekend he called me

  and he said I'd like to talk to you this

  was in the summer of 11 I said fine when

  and typical Steve fashion is it now

  great and write a typical so I go over

  to his house and i still remember how he

  started this discussion said there has

  never been a professional transition at

  the CEO level and apple he said our

  company has done a lot of great things

  but it's never done this one last guy is

  always fired and then someone new comes

  in he goes I want there to be a

  professional CEO transition and I've

  decided and i'm recommending to the

  board that you be the CEO i'm going to

  be the chairman and it goes on it's

  really good that's you know

  I hope they help their able to keep up

  crazy stories like this

  yeah you know even the hook jobs going

  but she's just like and I don't know how

  you do that because it's like it's

  little stuff like that that makes it i

  mean her love stories like that and

  having worked at a company

  those are those are always the best I

  mean you just if you have a story like

  that it part in a really it sounds

  stupid but it actually helps build the

  culture of the company

  yeah if you can tell crazy stories are

  just great nutty things about the

  executives and stuff that's fun not you

  know people get yeah well I mean it's

  also kind of fun to hear about people

  getting fired in the elevator but

  there's the old one about cook the one

  and you know you don't hear these

  stories angle but there's the one about

  their something was going wrong in China

  and need one he said you pointed to the

  one guy heating and said okay you're the

  one that fix it and then like five

  minutes later looked up and said what

  are you still doing here and the guy got

  really good one

  any guy got haywire like dinner still on

  a plane right he did he touch with that

  they said the guy did though he didn't

  even go home he liked guys car cook told

  his wife I gotta go to China and he just

  drove drunk in san jose airport and

  booked a ticket to China will buy some

  clothes there right yeah it probably


  yeah guys like spend two weeks in China

  where like ill-fitting clothing that


  ok i'll get one at the factory yeah

  there anything else going on this week

  terrific five came out yeah I'm gotten

  yet but well as I do i do enjoy the

  terrific is that you're using your

  twitter client of choice i go back and

  forth and i used to use but I do use

  both these Tweetbot and twitterrific

  yeah it's really and on and on iOS is

  both yeah it's really good and I kind of

  feel like they're they're doing a

  skating to where the puck is going to be

  thing with the aesthetics

  of the app is that it's it i know that

  the whole skeuomorphism thing it's such

  an overused word and it means more than

  just the textures right that like and

  and that it was an interview with Lauren

  Richter of letterpress fame with erica

  OGG by Erica eigen you go on this week

  he mentioned it that skeuomorphism is

  more than just the visual textures and

  putting sticks leather it's the things

  like when you've turned a page and it

  looks like a piece of paper as you turn

  the page whether it's good or bad it's

  you know it's more than just what it

  looks like but I feel like twitterrific

  is this new version 5 is going in this

  opposite direction of just talking about

  the textures and stuff like that sort of

  taking them all out and and going in

  this minimalist flat

  yeah the least chrome you can get away

  with and you know it Windows 8 is

  obviously in that direction but this

  doesn't look anything you know there's

  no one way to do it if you know what I

  mean yeah it's a similar concept but

  it's but it's um it's nicer in the same

  way that like is well here's a good

  example like the difference between

  apples aqua interface and the windows

  vista interface which were both largely

  based on this sort of plasticky

  translucency glass shadows transparency

  sort of aesthetic you can go very

  different ways with it what I one can

  look pretty good in one can

  yeah and look like you know you got it

  came yeah I there's different ways to do

  minimalism 2i and I kind of feel like I

  do kind of feel like that's what Jony

  ive has been talking about like when is

  little hints about the aesthetics of the

  OS you know and edited the little sort

  of knows quickly made when the guy from

  The Guardian asked him about it was the

  guardian whoever it was asked him about

  this stitched leather you know that is

  not really being true to the hardware

  twitterrific 5i think is a really

  interesting example of that I kind of

  feel like like like I contractor has

  jumped ahead

  of this state-of-the-art for athletics

  letterpress is another example of that

  you play the last y'all

  yeah you have we played yet we have not

  played now we probably should

  oh man that should be like my new rule

  for getting people on the show we gotta

  plan to play the letterpress yeah but

  yea letterpress is another example of

  that and that's you know that's where it

  came up in Laurens interview with Erica

  you know that there's obviously this

  minimalist death aesthetic on but it

  doesn't mean undesigned right there's

  it's harder to explain because when

  something is like a visual texture that

  design jumps right out at you where is

  it's more about the subtleties

  yeah like but when you move tiles around

  and letterpress it's not like there's

  nothing going on there's something very

  fancy going on where it's sort of

  jiggles in and it says jaunty little and

  even when you fire it up and it does

  that little that little rotating yeah

  thingamabob whatever it is

  yeah you know what that is its that's

  the eight bits logo

  oh that's right it's eight minutes right

  and the way it rotates is it goes seven

  times clockwise and then that the eighth

  goes counterclockwise and I will go

  seven clockwise for the inside sounds

  like the thing from Indiana Jones what

  will take one take one back 500 got one

  back Ilana yeah exactly

  they're digging in the wrong place i

  gotta play in leather place but anyway

  letterpress is another example and again

  letterpress and twitterrific five are

  both super super distinctive don't look

  anything at all like each other really

  except that there's a sort of Shh

  I don't know there's something to its

  kinda hard to talk about but I feel like

  there's like a shared sense of this is

  where you sensibility yeah yeah and I

  really think that they did good work

  ethic I feel like congratulations to all

  our friends that

  yeah an apple seems to get that kind of

  me when there was nothing in the

  interview was that he was talking about

  sort of a whole held up an iphone i

  guess this was in the

  the maybe the scene with the in the NBC


  yeah and he held up the iphone and

  talked about with Rocco see how the face

  of it is the operating system I forget

  exactly what he said but just that it

  you know and we've talked about this

  before but now it's just it's like a

  glass and you just have a glass front

  and then you're interacting with the

  operating system right there and that's

  the that's their design ethic right so I

  say we call it show all right i want to

  say one thing I never mentioned this is

  one thing I just don't mention it hears

  that I want to talk about the the

  sponsorship anybody out there listens to

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