The Talk Show

24: It’s Like Drug Money, with Glenn Fleishman


  I have a question that this is the type

  of thing that this is why I need to hire

  staff because if i had a staff I

  wouldn't have to ask you this

  ok but it's a protocol question I want

  to get the protocol you know when you

  meet the Queen of England there's a

  reason it's very complicated protocol I

  want to get this protocol right now do I

  introduce you as jeopardy champion

  Atlanta flash on and or do I introduce

  you as to time jeopardy champion Glenn

  fleischmann i think i think just

  jeopardy champion otherwise it's

  bragging i got you all right it's okay

  to win but then you know you sort of

  rubbing in some of those what's funny is

  I I think I thread the needle little

  neatly because i was i think i was a

  pretty good player not a fantastic

  player but I was between 27 de champions

  it turned out so I met both of them at

  the outgoing one who lost just before I

  did and I'm at the incoming 121 just

  after i did and i think both of them

  would have completely clean my clock

  because they had superb buzzer timing

  and some better domain knowledge that

  plays jeopardy so I got very lucky

  wait picnic did you did you beat the 72

  you the one who knocked the incoming

  seven-time champion off though

  no this is it was perfect she Stephanie

  yas lost because they had another name

  it's like a little family so she won she

  comes in we get in there it's on there

  on a Tuesday Wednesday for taping so I'm

  going tuesday morning and they're like

  oh well welcome stephanie is our

  five-time returning champion and we all

  look at each other and go oh shit right

  like we have to deal with this person so

  she plays two games at 85 games today

  she placed two games she the third game

  she plays which was not against me

  the Final Jeopardy question was

  ridiculous and even those of us sitting

  audience is contesting sides afterwards

  like we would have gotten it wrong it

  was asking for the country that have the

  largest state that would have been like

  the six largest country in the world it

  was a country and Stephanie wrote like

  Outer Mongolia issued now someone else

  wrote our products which is the correct

  state the question was asking for the

  country so the winner was sort of a

  fluke she wanted Final Jeopardy India

  then I be this lovely woman named

  Meredith and I won twice next morning

  come back and went to shows 45 that day

  come back the next morning and I lose

  the first game because I'm just fried

  the woman who beat me she wins one more

  game and she loses to the next seven-day

  champion teeth whitener very nice guy

  also got ya i imagine that is like a

  typical power law distribution where

  everybody everybody who gets on the show

  is good i mean it's the other qualifying

  process is enough that everybody who

  gets on his is pretty good even even

  someone who ends up not doing too well

  in an episode is probably a pretty good

  you know neighborhood trivia champion

  they win a lot so right the people get

  there should really be able to mean the

  game mechanics of being you know on a

  stage and and so be confronted with that

  might get you but you everyone knows you

  know a lot of stuff so yeah so I was

  with the the outliers of the things they

  do a lot of stuff in the game now to

  prevent people who win from keeping

  winning by giving them better training

  so giving out new contestants better

  training so we get is more her soul

  there's more buzzer practice and all

  that and that's level things out since

  Ken Jennings but I was between two

  people who end up being the number 14

  number 15 all-time money winners on

  jeopardy which is like a long history

  it's right for 30 days to get away a lot

  less money but they gave me a lot of

  money for a long time so I'm not you

  know I'm like the number 220 all-time

  winner out of that is still be pretty

  good i'm happy with the skills because

  they give me more money so even a basic

  game with more but like so I was between

  two outliers like these people are

  actually a 97 99 percent jeopardy

  players right and I'm like a 85th

  percentile keep her 80th percentile

  Michael it's okay i want somebody

  unhappy but it was there was funny it

  was funny and they're both nice people

  too and Billy back for tournament of


  I'm gonna watch them kill each other how

  many you have to win five to get on

  Tournament of Champions three but then

  there's a threshold of money and and at

  this point someone keeps a tally of it

  looks like you have to at least fifty

  thousand dollars which is minimum of

  three games but up least fifty thousand

  dollars now to get in huh

  given how well people have done so so

  it'll be it'll be a pretty fierce

  competition I think for the all-time

  rankings they should inflation adjust it

  and it's socially it you know because i

  think what they did is they doubled the

  money at some piano is language why it's

  like art fart Fleming was one thing that

  came from the series back

  I think it used to be like another top

  money you could win it was it was hard

  to win more than several thousand

  dollars but there's a baseline routinely

  yeah the baseline that's just call it X

  is the first round you know now what is

  it like 200 bucks

  it usually a hundred dollars on on this

  alex trebek one but that should just be

  called X and then whatever you win has

  to be a multiple of that I agree because

  then it's right if it's sort of like

  movie earnings to his you-know-whats

  notice know you're sleeping beauty or

  out of phantasia there's some movie that

  was the that's still in current dollars

  some billions of dollars that made might

  be gone with the wind acting was that

  it's one of those can go on with the

  wind that cost me thousands of dollars

  in jeopardy

  no its final jeopardy question list i

  think it might think i'm not trying to

  torment you here but I do that I believe

  that inflation adjusted if you just

  count ticket sold instead of counting

  dollars just count how many people put

  their butts in the seats to see the

  theater I think it was gone with the

  wind now I think that's eventually look

  at prices of stamps with gasoline and

  people are like stamps cost ridiculous

  amounts like know just different

  relation postage is the cheapest it's

  been practically since Benjamin Franklin

  or whatever you know and gasoline is

  actually it's expensive but it's not

  that expensive compared the nineteen

  seventies right now right

  i just paid 369 so you have people don't

  like math little thing with the movies

  is that the movie industry is such a

  cutthroat I'm on top right now thing

  that nobody has any interest in in

  remembering how popular jaws was right

  it's really just you know like whatever

  was the most popular movie of the last

  six months is really all that matters

  and that's all anybody wants to promote

  but it's it's like if you look back and

  see that jaws grossed 300 million

  dollars or 275 million dollars or

  whatever but then realized that

  first-run movie tickets for like a

  buck-fifty it's you know it's ridiculous

  exactly i'm everyone i paid i went to

  the first THX 1140 check sound movie

  that ever went to was robocop is open

  new theater and eugene oregon i paid i

  don't know it seems like a crazy i was

  at five dollars in 1984 something it was

  it seemed obscene was a 415 I was like

  oh my god it was then you know that's

  when pay $11 in something and I think

  that's actually cheap inflationary terms

  relative to what I paid for that I do

  there it is it it's a paths

  rite of passage in the united states

  that eventually it's it's when you

  become a full-fledged adult is when

  you're outraged by the price of X that's

  right right and I remember being a

  teenager and here in my dad complain

  about movie ticket prices I just

  remember thinking well that's just

  proved that you're an old man you know

  you're out of touch now now it's my turn

  i'll try to explain inflation to my kids

  my five-year-old a year old and they

  they can sort of get some of it and I

  had this experience not that long ago so

  the oatmeal god is that cartoon he

  raised a returner thousand dollars

  despite a douchebag who is suing him

  over something that was ridiculous and

  he was in town I don't you know talk to

  my boy editors and I can go cover this

  ensure so I call my colleges only all

  very nice guy and Matthew and he's like

  yeah come on down and so it's me and him

  and this friend of his who's packing

  some heat going to license and he'll

  pick up the money and his girlfriend his

  mother's mother helps fulfill all his

  mother does always some packaging like

  sends all the mugs and t-shirts up from

  a small town in Washington so in this

  room with like hundreds of thousands

  dollars like you want to help make sure

  some family kiddo it's like drug money

  it's like these big bundles twenty

  dollars and you don't understand how

  truly ridiculous money is why wasn't in

  cash he wanted to take he spelled out fu

  and douchebag in cash to send to this

  lawyer said I'm gonna take pictures of

  this money than I raised that i'm

  sending to charity so we took it all of

  the bank made pictures out of it let's

  put it on the floor in bundles of

  pictures and hand-picked money back the

  back and dispersed it's the charities

  and it's just a big you so but you

  handle cash and the absurdity of money

  as a system error symbolic part of our

  economy it is even worse when you handle

  large amounts of it doesn't matter if

  it's yours or not you're looking like

  what does this mean it's all this

  printed paper like this is a huge amount

  of cash and it just it like it just

  seems like even more absurd than it


  you you'd really do that I've you know

  I've I've met you several times at

  conferences in the UU instantly come

  across as a very trust trustworthy man

  like I'm not surprised i don't think

  that if I had been writing that story i

  don't think i would have been invited to

  help count the cash it was like a nice

  like his friend there is packing but no

  it was I'd met him before but stover

  great buddies or anything it's just as

  good guy and and that's what I was like

  this is you know like when a small room

  whatever but it's awfully nice that you

  trust i'm gonna hundreds of thousands of

  dollars in my hands right i I've had

  that experience secondhand I just not

  with what was in my hands but watching

  other people were in casinos where I

  like I've gone by the high-limit

  baccarat rooms and the like it

  Bellagio and you can just look in and

  see and you see that guys are playing

  with yellow chips and yellow chips are

  5,000 each and they're just putting out

  stacks of them i mean yeah i don't even

  know to the point where you can't even

  clearly count them you know where it's

  easily 25 30 35 thousand dollars of that

  and then I just think well that's that

  to me isn't insane i would die would die

  of a heart i like to gamble I I know I'm

  not averse to gambling but if I had 35

  thousand dollars in front of me on a

  planet world player of cards i would

  have a heart attack and I well here's

  the thing i can do a callback now which

  is some there in jeopardy and I'm like

  I'm gonna bet everything I could come

  from my trip solid at five thousand

  dollars but I had this great

  conversation with an IBM scientists

  recently who worked on the Watson team

  that won at jeopardy in 2011 and there's

  all this discussion about the natural

  language processing that Watson did and

  they'd like it

  dozens of scientists worked on this for

  four years I mean I being but millions

  and millions of dollars with the staff

  time in addition to tens or hundreds of

  millions of computer resources because

  they have all these interesting things

  are going to do with it now but they

  thought jeopardy was the right challenge

  makes a big splash it's good marketing

  but it's a great challenge right so

  natural language processing it was

  astonishing that it did as well as it

  did but he was working on the wagering

  side of it

  and how you so they would take the

  output like the question what kind of

  clue would come up the subsystems that

  did all that would you know incredibly

  rapidly have to process it before it

  rang in it would produce a confidence

  score instantly and keep refining it and

  he was constantly processing and the

  confidence score would let it choose

  whether to wager and it also used to

  pick which the daily double square our

  daily doubles might be under because

  they place them not it's not even

  pseudo-random replaced traditionally in

  certain places and so you can predict

  them and so bye-bye other wagering

  simulation of other players to test the

  system and pre-selecting we're using

  Bayesian analysis other things with the

  daily double score might do better

  elsewhere might be they dramatically

  improve the odds of winning and so the

  natural language processing was very

  impressive but the wagering part was

  actually did all these monte carlo

  simulations they're like you know we

  don't believe the average jeopardy

  player will be familiar with the what's

  the guy the John the movie about a

  fellow is slightly is mentally ill

  limited by the statistician Malaysian

  really think that I know you mean it was

  a rather like Ron Howard movie

  yeah so like we don't we don't think

  that every jeopardy players can have you

  know Monte Carlo simulations running in

  their head but all the simulation of

  wagering and strategy by other people

  by analyzing the archive of all the

  wagers and decisions people have made

  throughout the entire history of

  Jeopardy affected it and they made weird

  bats like on daily double straps maybe

  we're better and I'm like I read this

  paper i said i would change my strategy

  and the scientists said this guy Jerold

  sorrow said he'd worked previously in

  backgammon like computer become making a

  backhand simulations I could win our

  systems that could be human players he

  said in every game in chess backgammon

  bridge whatever which the computers

  finally improve on and can be the

  Masters the games people start playing

  the game differently because they

  understand that the way they're playing

  it isn't as efficient and isn't as a

  doesn't have the same odds probability

  of winning as the way computer plays it

  without any of those constraints right

  now without any sort of fear right or

  the computer says I'm ninety-seven

  percent confident the answer so i'm

  gonna wager you know 73,000 there was

  one player this one human player in

  jeopardy Roger Craig was a number for

  money winner and won the tournament

  champions in 2011 and he would do this

  thing where he would double down double

  down double down he was 77 thousand

  dollars in one day he did that thing

  pushing all the markers Ford the 77,000

  the most one by anybody on Jeopardy

  effort and one day I think engines had a

  75 grand a one-day because you do that

  maybe like he's got you know you've got

  thirty seven thousand five hours what

  you can do is like a wager all haha

  really really any do it and you know

  that's hard to do it's real money you

  know and the funny thing is that

  actually is i think it's it's that it's

  a very simple game overall jeopardy but

  i think that the daily doubles is just

  the right amount of of like a wild card

  it's like an asterisk in the game that

  makes it a game and the truth is on your

  first day the day you won your opponent

  had a lead that shit could have been in

  surmountable going into Final Jeopardy

  could have been unbeatable but she

  wagered enough on a daily double and

  lost to give you a chance

  yeah this is it's a heartbreaking moment

  which has been preserved on youtube

  someone's posted about three minutes of

  it and I didn't realize when playing the

  game until I watched interviewing party

  had a bunch of people at a sports bar

  even we're watching and I'm like oh my

  god she could have one I had no idea

  because it's so fast right the average

  question goes by the the new question

  every 12 seconds thinking some of the

  research shows so you know you're in

  there there's display you can look up up

  to the left of the big board you can see

  like a little LCD display of the three

  players course you can glance up there

  while you're playing when you're

  figuring out strategy and so in the heat

  of the moment if she had a minute to

  think about it she would about five

  dollars which is technically the lowest

  daily double back

  instead she got 1,200 and that was the

  craziest question answer is

  dendrochronology yeah

  is it on my god the poor woman yeah so

  she right so she had twice more than

  twice as much cited could have read in

  one and he went right runs just over

  twice what you had to just under twice

  what you had and the Daily Double was

  right at the end and she had no chance

  to get another question to go back up

  and more than double and so then one

  more and that was a gentle i know i was

  watching at home I recognized it

  instantly because i was really obviously

  I was rooting for you I thank you and I

  mean you will be on the talk show if you

  were one time jeopardy loser cleanse and

  it's like there's not much but yeah it's

  like my was really really i thought all

  she's kind of two and then I thought old

  a lot an inch did battle and I was like

  oh give her an impossible question and

  then they gave her an impossible

  question are we going that's a

  ridiculous question like this 13 letter

  working like all come of course i was

  watching one of my friends was at the

  viewing party

  his dad was a forestry says

  dendrochronology like oh my god really

  ya Yin right now because it is you know

  somebody's somebody knows generating

  science but it's funny and then we go

  into the Final Jeopardy that game and

  this is a great thing about other things

  that playing a game show about knowledge

  teaches you is there's a Bob Harris

  wrote this great book called prisoner of

  Tribeca spits and about his be 15 times

  back when you only went five times when

  he came back and they brought much like

  four tournaments because he's one of the

  most interesting nice guys he's got a

  new book coming out about

  microenvironment micro investing but a

  microloan so he's been traveling on the

  world meeting with people that he's loan

  money to over kiva it's he sent me an

  advanced copy it's really cool is really

  neat guy but he was this great book

  that's kind of memoir and kind of full

  of strategy about playing the game and

  this difference between no knowledge and

  ferd knowledge and I don't think I

  understood that as much until I played

  the game the final question on day one

  the Final Jeopardy was about a city the

  city him that's germany had a different

  name from 1953 to 1991 1933 to a night

  yet nineteen nineteen fifty three

  dimensionality what was it and I'm like

  what you know and I don't know the


  I don't know the answer and I know the

  other two players I sort of know what

  they know what is up probably playing

  the game and I'm like I studied German

  four years in college I'm like I know

  cabinets a german city that's not a

  problem i know the wall thought 1990 and

  I'm doing this you know this

  ratiocination you're like the Germans

  hated Stalin so it's not

  that after Stalin Lenin was a Russian

  Tsar Leningrad I'm like it has to be

  Karl Marx but I don't know that in the

  sensation of inferred knowledge is weird

  and then it's that I got the really yeah

  that's it you got enough money they want

  the city name or who was named after the

  one who was named the city was named

  after the city of him electricity

  it's karl marx shot yeah i would another

  name of the city but in hindsight I my

  guess was stolen and and I thought in

  your right this way you're on Jeopardy

  winning and I'm at home losing a little

  hey colin is inferred knowledge i knew

  from the years that had to be communists

  related that's when exactly that's when

  that you know that the Russians took

  control over half of germany after world

  war two and that's when they lost it

  I and so I thought well I don't know

  Stalin and and that's that's as far as I

  thought and then you're smart enough to

  think well they hate the Germans hated

  stolen and you know maybe the the

  Russians couldn't impose that on them

  and if so of course you go back you in

  begin the scope and go right back to the

  you know the granddaddy of communism you

  go to Karl Marx but you're staying in

  that quantum state you're shorting out

  of the system we call the hospital

  episode was the schrödinger's cat box

  because you're here sitting there in a

  state of which you what you've don't

  know if you won or lost because you

  don't firmly know that it's accurate you

  can only deduce it's accurate so there's

  no way to know until someone provides

  affirmative knowledge that your crime

  would have felt roots I would have felt

  real good though if I'd come up with

  karl marx I would have been sitting here

  thinking it's got to be marks outside

  because I was like I got one you know

  one chance but yeah it's funny it's a

  it's a funny it's a funny game and

  people are strangely fascinated about it

  even though a lot of people everyone

  told me

  yeah I love jeopardy and watched it for

  10 years just because people kept the

  core they don't to broadcast TV if i

  didn't have the viewing party i think

  half the people there wouldn't have been

  able to watch it at home because they

  don't have

  form of television or access to cable or

  whatever time have I had to do african

  if we talked about this online or not

  but as i explained to you my theory of

  everything it's a theory but i think

  it's so short

  why does jeopardy come on before wheel

  of fortune not vice versa in my market

  it comes on how does is destroy your

  theory yeah varies by market

  what's your theory though because wheel

  of fortune makes you feel smart and

  jeopardy makes you feel dumb

  yeah and you couldn't make you feel too

  dumb they're always striking a balance

  there i was watching the secret wheeling

  the secret to wheel of fortunes

  popularity is that the optimal strategy

  is not to solve the puzzle as soon as

  you can

  it's to keep racking up money once you

  know the answer to the puzzle and get a

  big dollar symbol and pick the tea which

  you know that there's three of and so in

  the meantime the audience has all of

  this way more time to figure out what

  the puzzle is oh no you're right that's

  exactly it's a perfect right because the

  the one the players want to keep it

  going as long as they can as long as

  they have money on the board but

  jeopardy don't i'm at Johns up but the

  the play this bounced again i was

  watching one night and they did a

  category about it i watched excessively

  after i got the caller's beyond and i

  went back and read archives and so forth

  in a they had a cat was all about

  Huguenots and I'm like really haha

  Huguenots and the players there i'm even

  alex is for canada alex trebek is like I

  think no one got any of the answers

  right here like really about you can I

  mean it's a little obscure you know ask

  you know technology might be bad but you

  gotta have stuff to people at home feel

  like they could have known even if they

  don't know it all right let me take a

  break and talk about our first sponsor

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  trial you just sign up go to talk start

  or gon sign up you get a free

  trial the beans will show up at your

  house in a couple of days

  fresh sealed and I'm telling it you're

  going to try these beans and you're

  going to sign up and become a regular

  mr. thanks talks it's good it's good i

  even ate some beans raw because they

  look so delicious that I definitely

  could my design schools my son loves eat

  a couple of coffee beans raw let's go

  ahead and I i will also about he didn't

  know he has no idea that their sponsor

  of my show you i don't think he knows I

  have a show I think talks whenever I

  make coffee i say hey you want a couple

  of beans and he'll take through for

  coffee beans and I gave him the talks

  ones and he gave me after he chewed the

  one he gave me the nose like the guy in

  Pulp Fiction they hey that was pretty

  good like that that's good coffee the

  other ones were particularly beautiful

  color to his olive color it's funny I've

  never been I've never been like a

  fetishist of coffee anymore so 40 but

  not even that but I like a good i like

  to make it taste good and isn't better

  and has kind of richness interesting and

  coming from the town of starbucks so

  here's a long story by the way so back

  in 2005 a colleague says hey there's a

  coffee shop in town that just opened up

  and they're turning Wi-Fi off on


  how crazy is that so New York Times

  weirdly one of the only direct

  assignments instead of me pitching they

  call me up and say can you write a story

  about this thing's sure so we go and

  meet these owners young idealistic

  owners who sold the business with a few

  years because running a coffee shop is a

  horrible horrible business they wanted

  to have a community place and the

  weekends with Wi-Fi on people never

  talked was absolutely signs a crypt they

  hated it so they turn Wi-Fi off for the

  weekends so the birds vibrator story

  about it get some really interesting

  play and some other places also start

  turning Wi-Fi off it's never really a

  trend but it's interesting so the guy

  roasting for them is Tony connect me the

  hawks and he is i do my first copy i go

  there he shows me are you copying in the

  back and I get a taste all this great

  coffee and then the guys you know is i

  think what's the opposite of of a bad

  pennies like a good penny just keeps

  turning up wherever there's good coffee

  turns up again and again and again and

  it turns out everyone in the world knows

  talks what is the opposite of event and

  I don't know it's a great pennies shiny

  penny right but very nice guy and he's

  always had the same commitment to it and

  you know it's coffee is a great story

  because it spans the globe and it spans

  this huge stretch of modern civilization

  and you can just become such a fetishist

  about every

  little blah no granny whatever or you

  can just drink it could cup of coffee

  but I like the good cup of coffee part

  better ma'am I you know speaking of good

  pens your sort of a good penny and that

  you you've had a crazy variety that

  you've written for it an ordinate and on

  a regular basis and inordinately wide

  variety of publications you just

  mentioned in New York Times you're now a

  regular contributor to The Economist ah

  you have been associated with tidbits as

  long as I can remember I ever since Adam

  and Tommy expanded beyond just adamant

  on yeah i mean i remember you your

  byline being in 10 minutes

  how long have been writing for typic

  since like 1994 yeah that's what I mean

  having i sent them a letter I sent them

  a letter once they ran and I was so

  excited I started writing for them after

  they lived in seattle when I first moved

  out here in that 93 i mean we're talking

  about before the web i mean we're

  talking about when it when a lot of

  people were probably still reading

  tidbits as the a weekly HyperCard stack

  those were the days of tidbits is now we

  believe it's the longest continuously

  published publication on the internet

  because there's an irish newsletter that

  stopped publication we think a quick now

  are the last one since like 99 because

  there was one they've been watching

  there was one in China that fell away so

  in terms of actually coming out on a

  regular basis for you know x years i

  think we are now the longest which is

  which practices and it's astounding

  really committed to think that it you

  know the the upheaval that it went

  through in the first decade uh just in

  terms of format you know what is what is

  the format for an Internet publication

  oh yeah and like dealing with servers an

  email an apple you know essentially

  almost imploding underneath it and then

  coming back and I mean the thing that's

  funny so here's the best thing about

  Adam and Tanya thanks as as people is

  they do a lot of what they do to help

  their friends make livings and do

  interesting things they're really like

  facilitators like they make a great

  living with what they're doing they

  figured a really good model with the

  ebooks with tidbits and so forth and

  they're charming people and great

  friends but they also they spend a lot

  of their time making sure that other

  people they work with have a good

  experience and can make a good living

  from what they do and it's it's like

  they're so non greedy about it's just


  yeah so amazing other publications that

  you have been associated you write for

  Boing Boing I sorry just a bit right

  occasionally Mars tecnica and yeah i got

  this funny thing is i like i like people

  it's this weird thing I like people and

  i've been i started my career because I

  was I was actually trained as a graphic

  designer first typesetter than a graphic

  designer was the career I was going to

  go into but it turned out i've always

  had an aptitude for computers so I wound

  up becoming this guy who's like a

  translator like oh you graphic designer

  you're trying to use desktop publishing

  only explain the steps to get there and

  that's just been kind of my career goes

  now I mean the Congress I'm the guy

  where like we don't understand you know

  nobody in house understands or cares

  about networking protocols could lend

  write something about this and so i'll

  write something on the blog or sometimes

  I'll pick something about a topic that's

  really its they're interested in it but

  it's really obscure the staff members or

  their science geeks they have PhDs and

  physics and economics and everything

  else but the technology side they're not

  familiar with it but other you know

  they're very few programmers in-house

  and so forth so I get to be the

  explainer of certain aspects of Twinkie

  digital things they are two and your

  newest gig which is where I guess sort

  of where I'm coming with this is you or

  I don't forget your title exactly

  executive editor executive at your

  market when I had some conversations on

  the magazine Marco Arment still nascent

  I think it's a dead issue number three

  is the current issue that's right number

  for his next week I which is just an at

  will as soon as I saw the announcement

  was like God why didn't i wish i had

  suggested this because this is such a

  perfect match and I'm i want to be able

  to take credit for making this happen

  this is such a perfect fit

  yeah it feels if it's in the Marcos

  wheelhouse to where it's like Instapaper

  it's like Instapaper except he's making

  the articles that you will then read


  you're such the perfect fit though

  because you you know you have such a

  variety of interests you know you're not

  just you know you used to write up i

  think it's past tense i don't think

  you'd keep it up and what the what the

  Wi-Fi blog

  oh yeah that was interesting i spent

  like a decade writing your Wi-Fi

  networking news which was a blog that

  was all

  out Wi-Fi you think what the house that

  it but it was great it was a decade of

  upheaval in the community the community

  Wi-Fi and then the all the standards

  chain right all the devices and in

  compatibilities standards wars and then

  then citywide Wi-Fi municipal Wi-Fi and

  those who have an end and then what

  happened is was very interesting thing I

  don't think it was that goes eight years

  nine years into it and suddenly all the

  interesting Wi-Fi disappeared because it

  just started to work and the rise in

  good mobile broadband like 3g had no 3g

  was suddenly everywhere 4gs standards

  that you know hspa+ and some of the

  faster 3g stuff was starting to get out

  there and LT was on the roadmap and

  suddenly people didn't need to know

  about Wi-Fi anymore because they could

  just connect whenever they needed to and

  the whole the traffic just fell out the

  bottom and which is fine things have a

  lifetime but i was i was sort of sitting

  one day I'm like I should stop doing

  this because know what's reading it for

  it sort of reminds me of a equivalent to

  Matt Howie's PVR blog which was wildly

  popular actually for a while but then

  everybody you know PVR's kind of became

  a you know like like like indoor


  you know like no you know what truly

  fascinating and life-changing and I but

  then it you know you just sort of

  assumed that it's there is no other a

  big deal because the implosion of the

  gadget blogs to that sort of happens I

  mean you still have you know that the

  verge is not a gadget blog it's a

  general computing thing that's more like

  you know macworld plus you know some of

  like a hifi stereo publication plus a

  business publication or on gizmodo is no

  longer exactly a gadget thing neither

  isn't gadget they write about all kinds

  of stuff and there's a hundred thousand

  sites that used to and some still update

  things that are about every little gijoe


  and I think and that's what happened

  Wi-Fi to was like when stuff just works

  and there's a sufficient amount of it

  and you don't have to make the same

  kinds of decisions used to about what

  you're going to get then the necessity

  of going to site so still people who

  obsessively check on every new thing

  that's coming out but I think the

  lifespan of those is really expired in a

  way that they used to capture the

  attention like 2003-2006 say

  that's the sort of passed by ma'am I I

  told him good

  yeah that too and yeah it's you know

  it's what I've often said the people

  that you know for a guy who started

  writing about apple and his own site in

  2002 I I always thought if I did I

  wouldn't pick a name that had the word

  mac in it and you know that was never

  really on the table but it really in

  hindsight is turned out pretty well

  known i think that's the thing i think

  by not dumb

  the most interesting stuff that happens

  now is deliberative and I think you know

  the verge still published as a lot of

  news but i think you know you want

  extreme you have any business insider or

  even national weather still there

  plowing out as much news is they can all

  the time some of its you know I'd say

  master likes of mashable Business

  Insider let's say none of it's good but

  they know they've got a business model

  but then you know I've talked to Brian

  laminate something for his wire-cutters

  site and he's the one of the people that

  gizmodo four years really drove that

  frenzied pace and now wire cutters like

  it's the best stuff like I really

  in-depth stuff and it's like he's doing

  nothing changes on there from day to day

  until we post new i mentioned a couple

  episodes ago forget who was on the show

  here with me but we were talking about

  the wire cutter and what a great site it

  is and compare and contrast to consumer

  reports which is really really

  problematic but they're trying to do the

  same thing which is I you need to buy a

  new TV

  I you just what's the best TV to buy and

  you go to the wire cutter and they just

  tell you here's the best TV to buy

  that's it

  let's get this one or if you're you know

  it and i'll give you like three options

  like he's just the best big TV to buy

  here's the best one if you're on a

  budget and you know here's the best one

  if you want something small TV that's it

  and that's all they tell you to do and

  then let's give you a link that will

  explain their we know maybe why it's

  good but that's it there is no like 888

  by seven grid of features and check

  pluses and minuses and edit its Apple

  like in its simplicity but justice but

  but I had been a cop with peter rojas he

  came through seattle a few months ago

  and I've never met him in person but we

  had correspondence for years and he

  founded on gizmodo and then found it in


  and then founded GD GT and I was a good

  and and you know so G so he can say he's

  responsible for all the horror right but

  but I mean it was with the word it was

  different when he was involved money

  each time he left the publication's

  transformed into something else I think

  two and the whole industry changed but

  GD GT is its wire cutter like also it's

  it's here some really good information

  on a focus subject we're not going to

  bombard you because I think there's a

  limited audience this is what just about

  the liveblog things still like you know

  the fact that millions of people will

  tune in to these liveblog transcripts of

  Apple events

  what are you going to hear that's live

  that's not I never understand that like

  why can't you wait and someone writes

  analysis or you can watch it yourself

  when the video is posted but there are

  obviously a lot of people who are

  obsessed with the latest newest absolute

  the second information and then I think

  a much bigger audience it's like just

  give me the lay of the land I don't need

  to read every last bit give me the

  information so i can make a value of


  exactly now i agree that a night and I

  also think I i think it should be i try

  to do this i always try to keep in mind

  with what i do a daring fireball that

  obviously there's some people who are

  loading the site multiple times

  throughout the day but i always have in

  my mind somebody who's really busy

  hopefully working on some really cool

  and they going to let they're going to

  load it once at the end of the day just

  to see what happened and I want the site

  the homepage to breed and make sense and

  sort of give you an overview of what you

  need to know did you miss anything today

  or is it just a bunch of the you know

  goofy pictures of cats or something like

  that but he's going to use RSS anymore

  given RSS reader and I do i do but I

  much comparing spiritual you did before

  very little twitter is really over taken

  it to a large extent I really what I I

  there's like a reckoning coming where I

  should really I I should wipe out all of

  my RSS subscriptions and start over from

  scratch and do it in a very different

  way where it would be more like here's

  the Dozen feeds that i don't i know that

  i don't want to miss a thing and no

  longer the here's a hundred feeds and

  i'm going to skim what's new to see what

  jumps out is breaking like twitter has

  really overtaken that as the

  I just what's going on right now am i

  missing something that's breaking and

  twitter is an aggregator me it's crowd

  its crowd-sourced knowledge and on

  average if you follow people i mean it's

  sort of funny thing by figuring out who

  you follow you only follow people are

  interesting you and subscribe to them or

  unfollow if they stop being interesting

  to you overwhelm you and so who's left

  for people who are likely to post things

  you're interested in and you can see the

  same URL from a bunch of people or the

  weekend tweeted that they're interested

  in so it's like I don't I i still have

  our SSI hundreds of things in there but

  a lot of them are like places where

  otherwise wouldn't go in there just

  obscure enough but i keep unsubscribing

  feeds in our sense because i'm like i

  don't need the new york times in my RSS

  if there's an interesting article I mean

  they're going to see it when i visit the

  homepage at some point it'll show up 15

  times and Twitter

  yeah i totally agree it is twitter is

  sort of Twitter works that way by doing

  and I think that you have to do but you

  have to be willing to unfollow the

  people you no longer find interesting

  you know and don't don't don't think

  it's like I i know i don't have a

  facebook account that I understand

  though that like unfollowing or whatever

  they call it somebody on facebook is

  considered like rude it is a leg-up you

  need something you might take personally

  that somebody is no longer friends

  friends with you on facebook

  whereas to me the following unfollowed

  you should never take that personally on

  twitter i don't care people on follow me

  because I'm tweeting about baseball or

  something like that I don't care except

  fine come back and haunt you know I

  don't people have to tell you people

  like I'm gonna follow you because I

  don't really care if you're following or

  not that's why don't you write whatever

  are you a twitter reader or your Twitter


  what's the difference well so people

  like my good friend Lex Friedman he

  reads twitter he very carefully curates

  who he follows so the volume isn't too

  high and has to meet me at times because

  I go off and I knew I system

  I i saw this guy i'm a skimmer I cuz i

  have like I followed thousand people and

  I dive in and I look I'll scan a little

  bit and then

  go back to the pit up to the top and

  forget about it now and it's in it is

  also part of the brilliance of the the

  concept of twitter is the you know and

  it's just been one of the great examples

  in my mind of how not putting a feature

  in is design and that's the lack of red

  on red status that's a 10 in the early

  years in 2006-2007 that the screaming

  from people who were you know RSS

  addicts who were who wanted red on red

  status for tweets was it was cacophonous

  and Twitter you know didn't ignore they

  were like no that's actually the point

  is not to be have red on red you're not

  supposed to see all the tweets you just

  take a look at what's going on now and

  scroll back as you know couple minutes

  if you want and if you really want to

  see them all that's up to you and you'd

  keep scrolling down the timeline until

  you see the one that you know you saw

  last night but we're not going to keep

  track of that for you because we don't

  want to encourage that behavior you run

  a pole sometime I just I've asked

  occasionally informally and i'm stunned

  how many people among my followers say i

  read twitter i'm like oh I put it i

  think that you know there's a little bit

  of OCD there may be that when you and I

  you know I have that to some extent or

  unread counts do make me anxious

  yeah so people are like they don't they

  can't just go to the top ignore that

  they might miss something I mean the

  internet is all about the internets

  motto is you might miss something right

  on i do read all of my mentions maybe

  not religiously i mean i might be some

  days where I'm busy or if I'm offline

  for most of the day for travel or

  something like that that I I won't but

  in general you could there's a very high

  chance that on a given day any of mine

  I'm gonna read all of my mentions and

  they're certainly far more voluminous

  than a typical twitter user but it's

  actually not that hard to keep up with

  way easier than keeping up with email

  yeah and I think about dimensions are

  are more like someone I mean it's like

  an email replacements 140-character

  email replacement someone bothers to do

  that i feel like i should respond to

  them or acknowledge it because otherwise

  it's rude

  I mean you've got a high asymmetry to

  that's the thing is you must get a lot

  of talk i have interesting conversations

  with people about the scale of Twitter

  from you know thousand followers to

  10,000 sort of exponential thing up the

  people with you know several million and

  it's fascinating how variable the

  interaction can be some people with very

  few followers spend all their time and

  mention land and others with millions of

  followers people either to count or they

  just say like hey you're great but

  there's no communication right now i

  find it to just be super efficient and

  it it forces people who want to contact

  me to be brief

  yeah it's right it's in and in general

  if you can keep your emails to within

  the general length of a tweet it's a lot

  more likely that i'm going to read it

  and reply but the interaction is so much

  easier because going through email you

  have to select it and then it opens and

  it's just the whole thing if you just

  want to bring a link to my attention

  like hey I I can't believe grouper

  hasn't link to this yet this is so

  obviously daring fireball material I it

  is way more likely that i will see it if

  you tweet to me then if you email it to

  me and I don't you know because it's

  it's just an easier work fly just have

  to scroll through a list and eyeball

  them as opposed to clicking down through

  a list in and out in and out in and out

  well attention is a precious commodity I

  keep thinking like attention is the one

  thing you can't get more of you can't

  build more of it you can you have to a

  lot it in its it's you know that's what

  facebook is trying to buy our attention

  and sell it to people and the I all this

  is another call back when this is the

  idea behind marcos the magazine is that

  he's trying to not overwhelm people and

  it seems sort of philosophy with

  instapaper to is that it's you want to

  read it you can do it later out of the

  flow of your right of your so the

  maelstrom of all the stuff that's coming

  through and I think that's one of the

  guiding things behind the magazine is

  like interesting stuff that you're not

  necessarily going to find everywhere

  else and just enough you know it's in

  magazines always curation but it's just

  enough that it'll be interesting enough

  to read every issue but you won't feel

  like oh god I mean running for the

  Economist that's the thing i always here

  is I know plenty of people who read it

  but they think of it sometimes homework

  they have the issues piled up there

  again you don't have to read everything

  you can throw issues into the recycling

  but people look at it as it's this is

  something I'm supposed to do or they

  enjoy it too and they make the time

  for that but the economy I don't have

  time to read the comments every week I

  try to be a good hunk of it but I you

  know I feel like that I I don't have an

  economist subscription but i do have I

  do subscribe to The New Yorker and it i

  feel that exact same way sometimes I

  come I come downstairs and look in the

  mail and there's a new issue of The New

  Yorker and I can't believe it because it

  seems like it seems like the other one

  just came yesterday I and i would have

  to say that the number one reason i'm

  not a subscriber to the economist is

  simply because of how agitated i am by

  the gigantic pile of New Yorkers in my

  office i got the new yorker and the

  economist I I'm not sure that's a

  winning strategy for me I should

  probably settle down but you know

  there's always it's like there's always

  a long feature the new yorker that I

  that I love I mean the one thing that

  the reason I got into the magazine by

  the way the reason I pitched Marco on

  being the editor is because I mean a I

  knew he's a he's a technology guy is

  also a good editor i like how we headed

  to the first two issues very much but

  you know there's this list of things he

  can do and the stuff is able to offload

  a whole pile of stuff onto me so we can

  focus on the areas that he really likes

  to spend time but the the thing that

  appealed to me was his view of what the

  magazine is there's nothing like that

  right now you can't find a publication

  that wants to run articles that are of

  interest to people interested in

  technology that are either about

  technology or are made about medical

  technology the new yorker doesn't really

  run stories that are of interest to

  people who know something about

  technology know even when they're about

  it so I like the idea that we're going

  to have things that are have a human

  focus you know they might be about like

  you know Lexus the Lexus references

  article and wet shaving or Dan Moore and

  I'm making tea that there are things

  that if you like tech you're going to

  like to hear about things associated

  with it I've got a friend who'd as a

  letterpress guy and his beautiful writer

  I want him to write about what that

  means because people who were involved

  in electronics don't necessarily know

  the joint interesting sort of the

  trickiness of letterpress all I am so

  good at letterpress it is unbelievable

  that fat letterpress that letter

  forehead the inky kind of letter I had a

  quick letterpress I I can't I've mice

  win rate was about 5% really i would

  play now maybe i'm playing its people

  too hard we should find easier players


  all the people i know are much better

  wordy who did who did you play who'd you

  find difficult we never play ever I

  never end up playing everybody I'd like

  basically the macworld editorial staff

  among other people and some other

  friends and it's funny I know a million

  words I've had rounds where I was

  playing with the friend Sarah and she

  wrote a poem out of the word em up with

  because we have this great list of

  things including some very dirty ones

  the middle of the dirty words and I and

  but I couldn't win i just i don't have

  the strategy for to have the words but i

  seem to like and I played I don't know

  about 60 games and i won like five of

  them and I thought this is probably not

  my game

  maybe i'll come back to it but it's hard

  to always lose a game in the early part

  of the game being able to find the

  biggest words is the best skill but once

  you get to the middle of the game it's

  it's all strategy and and you can win

  i'm not good at finding it

  wow that's a great word words i'm i'm

  most of my words are like third grade

  words but they're strategically placed

  yes well I've seen some of your word

  list so i posted on the Twitter yeah i

  do we know the words a lot of

  letterpress but I didn't just back to

  the magazine

  here's the thing is it's right the thing

  that it that makes you such a great fit

  and it fits with this show that you're

  talking about doing which is a you know

  just the idea of how disintermediated

  can you get and just go back to the

  simplest thing economically that'll work

  and look at the magazine me now

  everybody knows the did it gets a little

  complex here because the name of the

  magazine we're talking about is the


  no I that make it more confusing

  overtime but the magazine industry in

  general is is widely regarded as being

  in a period of upheaval and that this

  you know it could be on the verge of

  collapse and that there's you know

  there's certain big big ones that are

  probably going to do just fine just

  because they're you know the economist

  in The New Yorker certainly right there

  among them because of the quality of

  them in the New Yorkers mostly been

  operated a loss for most of its history

  i'm not sure if its profit moment but it

  is almost always been operated a lost is

  the fasting part but people who run

  including sign of house

  now for the last six decades they loved

  it so much they just they keep it


  I'm the economist i would hope just by

  the title is is that ok that's good i

  think they've doubled their circulated

  in the last 10 years ago they took away

  Time and Newsweek decided that stupid

  was better than smart right so they went

  stupid I mean time was thing that i read

  as a kid when you're like a newsweek was

  a slightly easier version of it but I

  wasn't bad and US News and World Report

  I mean that was often has incredibly

  good stuff in it and you know lots of

  publications like that now you point out

  like the Atlantic and Harper's as the

  ex-employers along with the new yorker

  of a certain kind of style but for

  Newsweek like what you read in America

  that's you know so 2 times we said the

  stupid or the better the more black

  people we are without forgetting their

  news organizations could and the cons

  picked up all the subscribers you wanted

  to read something with words of three or

  more syllables and occasionally and you

  know the scope of the magazine at least

  right now is less than the scope of

  those other magazines for talking right

  now so far three issues it's about i

  think it's four or five articles per

  issue articles or somewhere around

  thousand to 1500 words that seems to

  mean I don't know that's right in the I

  mean the thing is this is where so this

  podcast I'm going to do which is

  tentatively titled the disruptors that

  the notion is that like we've had tools

  to create stuff for decades now you know

  i was involved in early desktop

  publishing audio came after that you

  know all the digital tools in there to

  make things and now we're now your

  digital tools that let you control make

  3d objects and cnc routers and and you

  can get a 3d printer in your house for a

  thousand bucks or less much last season

  so we're at the revolution where you can

  have all the digital tools you need to

  create stuff and the next wave is

  funding disputed production

  manufacturing distribution and that's

  where I keep seeing things like the

  magazine fits in that beautiful it's

  like make you still you have to be in

  bed with Apple they're taking a

  30-percent cut their your distribution

  channel but you if you have an audience

  you're not mr. mediated by it gatekeeper

  that says you're not allowed to reach

  that audience Apple would be delighted

  for you to have 10 million people paying

  you so they get thirty percent of it as

  in the past where newsstands new getting

  a magazine on a physical newsstand there

  is a lot of organ

  Skyrim connections in the past there's

  these placement fees the reason

  magazines a new stands costs like seven

  dollars and this yearly subscriptions

  like twenty dollars has to do with the

  incredible intermediation that adds cost

  and so you know you take that one step

  further and digital distribution we

  don't have to build the distribution

  platform just the content and the medium

  it's great well the other things too

  though that saddle traditional x

  long-standing newspapers and magazines

  are the incredible bureaucratic bloat of

  the organizations that is that took

  place over the 20th century where I am I

  used to work at the philadelphia

  inquirer not on the editorial staff but

  in the promotion's Department to an

  graphic design work long time ago but I

  got to know the company and it was

  interesting division of the the

  newspaper to work in because it

  effectively we did like the house ads

  like ads for the inquirer itself or if

  the automotive sales department you know

  that people who said that the car ads

  needed like a flyer or something for

  thing that they were doing we would make

  that form so i got to know all these

  people throughout the company and it was

  amazing to me just draw dropping how

  many people work there who not not

  talking about the newsroom not talking

  about reporters photographers editors

  people who actually made when I thought

  of is the newspaper but everybody else

  it was massive and I'm sure that but you

  know there's I know in fact I know that

  they've had a lot of layoffs and buyouts

  and stuff like that in the years since I

  work there but it was just jaw-dropping

  how many people work they're doing

  things other than what I thought of is

  the business of doing the newspaper well

  it's it's crazy but newspapers used to

  make like twenty-five percent profit

  margins year after year that was larger

  and you can have anything that was so

  you could have any number of executives

  middle managers members of the family

  who were too idiotic to send it to other

  companies promotions people layers of

  editors reporters your reporters working

  and features for three years and

  producing 50,000 words at the end and

  magazines were I think a little bit more

  variable but many had extremely high

  profit margins there was no other place

  for advertisers together it was a that

  in fact was a point of contention when i

  was there because it was at the time

  it was a knight ridder newspaper The

  Inquirer out and daily news that the

  Philadelphia Inquirer and Daily News are

  jointly published by a flattering to

  know what the company's called anymore

  but there is one company that publishes

  to newspapers and they were owned by

  knight ridder and knight ridder

  considered at the time is like the mid

  to late nineties their flagship

  newspaper to be the San Jose Mercury

  News I and it was always a little bit of

  a point of contention because I think

  journalistically the Philadelphia

  Inquirer had a better reputation and on

  the eighties the Philadelphia Inquirer

  one more pull it serves than the New

  York Times or The Washington Post I mean

  it was truly at a a world-class arguably

  maybe in the eighties maybe maybe the

  best newspaper in the country in the ath

  yeah about the inky and it was so that

  was sort of a sore point of contention

  but here's why the San Jose Mercury News

  was considered the flagship of nitrate

  and had a higher profit margin it was up

  in the higher twenties and the enquirer

  floated around 20 and I like nineteen

  percent was considered bad and 20 21 was

  a good core but that's sad days of 19

  right but that was it i mean there would

  be like a quarter like 1997 one of the

  quarters it came in and it was nineteen

  percent profit margins and it was like


  maybe they're going to have buyouts and

  here's the thing and this is of course

  the time when you still have the union's

  stranglehold rightly or wrongly I mean

  I'm not trying to be anti-union but it's

  like you had i know i gotta tell you I

  was a typesetter strange the types are

  never worked in newspapers but I work

  with older typesetters and work with all

  these people in the printing industry

  and they always had the story in the

  newspaper printing plants to be the guy

  who is like the line type operator and

  the Linotype machines that were taken

  out 20 years before and he's been

  drawing a salary for 20 years the guy

  who you know was the LED polar or

  whatever like all these jobs and there's

  the guy and then lots of plants were so

  Union run that there is like a big stop

  button management roles but came in they

  would hit the stop button stop the

  presses until management left like that

  was there right

  and so you had even with incredibly

  bloated inefficient printing plants that

  were padded with all these people who

  did nothing and all these extraneous

  employees and union benefits and

  everything else even with that they're

  getting twenty and twenty-five percent

  profit margin right and it so what I

  love about something like the magazine

  is that the magazine is to me i have

  always seemed like what I do a daring

  fireball is being a reset button on

  of what would it take to set up a new

  business that is sustainable and the

  employee count is 1 me and I'm a little

  lucky there because i have a computer

  science degree and I used to do web

  programming and so in terms of actual

  and there really isn't day the day

  there's not much web mercury I need to

  do to keep it going but i did get to I

  in its early days you know I could set

  everything up i could move servers i can

  do stuff like that by myself if there is

  a problem i can ssh into the server and

  but clumsily full around and see if you

  know what the hell's going on here so

  it's a little easier to be a one-man

  show or at least starting 10 years ago

  with a technical background today I

  think it's easy with with you know

  things like Tumblr and square space and

  the ways that you know the wordpress

  hosting sites and it's

  really easy for someone who doesn't have

  a technical background to do the same

  thing I think today wasn't so easy 10

  years ago

  yeah it was kinda cool that with the

  magazine's he's an iOS programmer and he

  spent you know nice is he can just make

  an iOS app it's not just make but you

  know it's it's some amount of effort

  that he knows what it takes to do it and

  can replicate it and it's kind of the

  equivalent of like okay how do i set up

  an apache server in 1997 right exactly

  well any other thing that he has it's a

  nice advantage to is with instapaper

  under his belt and with a happy fairly

  large customer base he kind of knows

  what people like experience-wise I you

  know what I want in an app that they're

  going to a reading experience on these

  handful of devices ipads iphones what

  are they gonna do what works what is

  what did they click on what are they


  so he was able to build that and that's

  a huge advantage on but then

  fundamentally just economically it it's

  so simple you just hit the reset button

  start from nothing

  okay now you've got ya a two-dollar

  subscription per month you get two

  issues per month and with you know ten

  twenty thousand subscribers all of a

  sudden or whatever the numbers you know

  just throwing out numbers like that i

  actually don't know but you know it's

  obviously hit a point though where with

  X thousands of dollars a month you

  can hey 45 writers for an issue a nice

  you know industry competitive amount for

  the articles you can pay an editor and

  you can have money left over for profit

  for the publication

  yeah and that's what house even getting

  into advertising it happen is you

  haven't even started and that's apple

  thing thirty percent off the top to

  write and bully for them in so yeah

  that's the that's the thing is when

  Marcus put out some numbers but you know

  he said after the first issue posts me

  to look you know this is becoming

  sustainable venture he's paying nearly

  magazine rates for writing I i was

  surprised and pleased what he wants

  offering this is my i'm going to be you


  Candyman here this next year like I'm so

  excited about the amount of money i'm

  going to be able to pay other people for

  good writing is actually more exciting

  to me then whatever money I make from

  working on it because there's such a

  dearth of opportunities for people to

  both be published and to be paid an

  appropriate livable like just even

  livable wages not he's not paying a wage

  that means that people can make two

  hundred thousand dollars a year if they

  wrote full-time for he's paying wages in

  these people can actually live a

  probably lower to middle class existence

  which is where we've gotten writing I i

  got paid fifty cents of word by the new

  york times in 1998 and and then many

  years later too although they changed a


  I was told by friends that the New York

  Times paid fifty cents a word in 1970

  you know it's really not that it's yes i

  would say that's not good because that

  Lord article is a lot of work and a lot

  of worry come away with him

  let me check for 505 yeah so I mean

  that's this is part of the thing is like

  publications have evolved to a point at

  which they believe if you look at the

  management structures in the top-heavy

  structures of most publications they

  believe writers are interchangeable and

  uninteresting and I mean writers are

  branded or a big brand-name malcolm

  gladwell things and not choosing new

  yorker of this of all places but there's

  this attitude that the content is the

  least important part of the packaging

  reselling marketing advertising around

  it is and this attitude is pervasive and

  so Marco i think is coming out of the

  way around like if you're starting from


  how would you build a publication date

  can be an iOS app it's the easy smallest

  lowest-hanging fruit to reach the

  largest number of people with the least

  amount of effort it's got millions of

  people in saudi

  already who know and trust in those

  products so he doesn't have to worry

  about the marketing side of reaching

  those people and then he started out

  with the idea of going to pay a

  competitive rate which we hope will

  improve over time and see echoes and so

  right now it's sustainable we could do

  this forever and I also think you know

  compared to traditional magazines which

  are so

  are so

  heavily add based and therefore have

  these you know and there's the whole

  complex whole situation with advertising

  in a magazine like New Yorker Sports

  Illustrated or the economist and you

  know selling these backpage ads and

  inside front cover ads and and then

  filling up the back of the book with all

  the little lads

  its enormous amount of work something

  like the magazine can start from scratch

  and go with the like less of an

  advertising model more of a sponsorship

  model and maybe just have one sponsor

  per episode

  I and and maybe leave money on the table

  that way but also not have to have a

  full-time ad sales staff don't even have

  to have anybody

  there's a funny thing that happened at a

  time like I can tell you firsthand with

  you go with the sponsorship model you

  don't need anybody you know you can do

  it yourself

  yeah this is and that's what is pursued

  but there's this funny thing is once you

  get to a certain level of scalar

  interest you can ask for a premium rate

  and not have to be selling a thousand

  little pieces and have somebody in

  charge of it but I'm you know so mark

  and I have this discussion i'll expose

  the discussion we have he's talked about

  it publicly as he he wants to be every

  other weekend he's thought about it

  talking publicly about it perhaps being

  weekly I would agitate potentially

  foregoing weekly at some point although

  that'll you know mean a lot different

  editorial schedule and so forth

  he's worried it'll be too much for

  people to read that if he's promising

  for 5 articles every two weeks if we

  certainly did say just for articles

  every week that maybe more attention

  than people want to give so with

  subscriptions go up because it's a

  better value it's more articles or

  subscriptions go down because people are

  saying all now this has become a chore

  so that is even a fascinating position

  to be and where you're saying we could

  potentially you know either some dollars

  which there and could we do double

  subscriptions by having more probably

  not in that ratio but don't have become

  more appealing to people if there's more

  content because it's more likely they'll

  be interested in something in every

  issue right and maybe now if they don't

  like the 4 5 articles they have to wait

  two weeks and they resubscribe if they

  don't like everything or two or three H

  so there's that's that's part of what we

  have to be much more interesting every

  other week

  and perhaps weekly as well I like a

  problem it is but I think it's uh you

  know i-i've when Marco first ran the

  idea past me hey do you think this makes

  sense i I really you know I just thought

  yeah of course it's decided this is I

  think it's a sure thing I think it's a

  question of how big of a hit is it gonna


  Edwards that was my spot I thought it

  was just a great idea and a great

  opportunity and you know i do I I'm

  could not be more bullish on that the

  prospects going forward of the magazine

  it's great now the whole challenge now

  is to get interesting people who want to

  write you know deep interesting things

  that we've had some I mean the early

  response was great and I've been going

  through a lot of what I did for

  marketers go through hundreds of pitches

  that we've gotten and we're trying to

  find more research to reported stories

  because we're paying enough to get

  people to go out and do that kind of

  thing so we'll have personal essays will

  have you know general essays about

  things that like you know wet shaving

  and cup of tea i keep going back to

  things like gina trapani he's great

  piece about uh vitro fertilization or

  partners such a one of my favorites so

  far maybe my favorite maybe my favorite

  piece from the magazine so far they're

  all my children so I can't play

  favorites but it was I think it hit a

  perfect balance between personal story

  research and technology and and like

  this this sort of thing that's totally

  Universal the people the feeling you

  have when you read it right and so we're

  striving for some balance of those

  components in every story and so we're

  you know we're kind of bunch of really

  fun stuff i went to library of

  congress's buried archives in Virginia

  and I'm writing an account of that of

  where they keep their audio-visual

  materials and vaults in Culpeper

  Virginia so that'll that'll be fun to

  write you're going to do it for the


  yes this is I pitched it before I got

  the editor yes here's my question for

  you and and this is one it is one of the

  questions I have written out here for

  you is because you have this widely like

  i said before you the economist New

  Yorker you you pitch you you you still

  write freelance for a lot of different

  publications now that you're the editor

  of the magazine how much how hard is

  that going to be for you to decide where

  to do your writing like should I still

  pitch this 4x publication or should I

  just do this for the net for the

  magazine well i'm going to be mark i

  just talked about this recently in fact

  is that not about my side of it by

  neither of us want to dominate be

  dominant voice and especially every

  other week so you are trying to some of

  the writers are early issues

  we're trying to space them out too so I

  i will be surprised if i write more than

  every four issues if that just because

  then it becomes too much as it should be

  a platform for me and marcos written

  more the early days because you know

  he's trying to set the tone and so forth

  and he'll probably be in less than less

  to for the same reason why room for more

  voices but there is this thing which is

  I did this I'd through a just a fluke

  interview the fellow who's the head of

  the audio section at the library of

  congress and he said I've never out you

  have time come out to culpeper and I did

  I didn't have an outlet for it and the

  inside i feel i got from seeing what the

  library of congress is doing with our

  audio-visual history there's not really

  a place that would run an article like

  that aspects of it maybe some technical

  thing about how you extract sound from

  wax cylinders or so I'm gonna peace a

  year ago in fact based on some an

  interview i did with this fella about

  the phonogram right this obscure thing

  that prevents audio from being used the

  phonogram light right last 200 years

  this point everything Edison's first

  utterance 'as on a wax cylinder are

  still under protection by the photograph

  right until 2067 it was this crazy thing

  everything in audio no audio will expire

  until 2067 from the audio part of the

  protection as opposed to the copyright

  of the underlying composition or words

  and it's this is historically weird

  thing to ever think about that for the

  Economist it's perfect weekends for the

  blog and and it highlights is really odd

  aspect of where digital culture collides

  with analog culture and to some extent

  science so but to find a place where i

  can write about you know what's the

  what's the inside impact and seeing our

  cultural memory in this form and the

  restrictions on scanning access to it

  because of copyright and other bakeries

  there's not really not that we do that

  now the Atlantic there are places like

  the Atlantic New Yorker Harper's they

  might run articles like that but it

  would be much bigger this would be

  something I'd spend months on the

  compensation would probably not good

  enough for it I've talked to people

  who've written freelance for some of

  these publications and the experience is

  magnificent but they can't put money on

  the table to say the contract

  or a staff job to have money on the

  table can't put on the table put money

  on the table unless they have an ongoing

  relationship where they're just

  committed to writing some amount it's

  tough business so being able to write

  short interesting things so he's like

  well you know a thousand-word range and

  get paid well for them is actually sort

  of hard to find unless it's either very

  technical or very poorly with you not

  coming will pay for getting tiny number

  of cents per word now I think it's very

  exciting and I can't you know I think

  the fact that said the magazine is

  already paying competitive rates and

  like you said maybe as time goes on

  maybe even might push that forward and

  actually pay leading rates

  I'm and why not i mean what if that

  drove subscription what if we could get

  I mean this is the thought of it that

  it's completely contrary to the way the

  magazine industry is gone and i'm not

  talking out of school here I mean this

  is I tried you know private discussions

  or private but this is the you know also

  this isn't some of my head is what if it

  were that we could pay of the best rate

  in the magazine industry what writers we

  get and this is not to be offensive to

  the writers have been there already we

  have some great people are a terrific

  writer is writing for us already

  but what if we could get the leading it

  but we would all agree i mean i know i'm

  not the leading rider in the country i

  know there's people who I would be

  delighted to have their words the

  magazine's People I pick up publications

  going to buy them because articles by

  them in there what if some of the

  leading on fiction writers in the

  countryside oh well I should be in the

  magazine and so we have people like me

  and the magazine who are very you know

  where we are competent hard-working we

  write good stuff people like to read

  this and we have people who are names

  because they're very very very good

  these are the people you idolize you

  know a jon krakauer something like that

  he demands a huge feet what if we can

  pay rate where he's an entrepreneur do

  that but we could be that same thing to

  him and I can say to pay the same fee

  too damn moron or whatever

  yeah no I think it's a terribly excited

  astok the other one last thing but on

  the magazine before we look over that is

  is the other thing too that reminds me

  of the early days of the web is that the

  magazine itself that the app is better

  than as good or better than all of the

  big-name magazine app store it is truck

  and it's totally true the weather and it

  is this 20 is this in Congress thing and

  i saw it was one of the reasons that a

  decade ago I saw daring fireball is an

  opportunity is either

  but I can make a better a better website

  then these guys these big name cup guys

  you haven't over from print can do

  because i'm going to do something that

  is clean i'm going to do something that

  is not cluttered I'm gonna do something

  that is that looks good and instead of

  looking back and there are some

  magazines that have gotten better over

  time the new yorker app has gotten a lot

  better over time where it's not it's no

  longer published as a series of static

  images its actual text and they use

  fonts and they sort of have a magazine

  the magazine type layout now where you

  go side to side between articles but an

  individual article Scrolls down but it

  used to be and you can still easily find

  big-name print magazines that have apps

  where I get completely lost two clicks

  into the thing where am i how do I get


  how do i go to the next article I mean

  easily you just get it's so easy to get

  lost and the magazine is just simple

  table of contents on the left article

  Scrolls down

  yeah i mean this is where I think you

  get that benefit maturity is that you

  know I we all have pity for the magazine

  publishers in that notion of pity i

  Guess's they didn't invest money

  figuring out how to do it right in

  mobile formats for the most part before

  like the ipad came along right in some

  did some early out but even doing it

  correctly you know for decent web

  browsers in 2008-2009 and so you're

  still watching 02 or two years in the

  ipad you're still watching them fumble

  around to figure it out and you're

  gradually seeing the clarity and there's

  a huge divergent paths between the ones

  that you're like I like the new yorker

  app now i can use it it's good the

  economist app started out I think a

  little rough not bad but now it really

  has that iconic feel of the magazine

  without being beholden to write and I i

  actually i'll often have read the whole

  issue on the phone and get the print

  issue and I'm like oh I don't need this

  anymore just realized i read it but in

  my mind I can hardly differentiate the

  experience because the branding and the

  sort of is our are equal and I think so

  Marco gets the advantage of having spent

  years figuring out what that experience

  should be and then he supplies the

  lessons you can learn from scratch and

  not having to answer to any idiot

  dumbass protectionists pull your head

  out of your ass guys above him so that

  when the magazine launch he could

  actually honestly on ironically

  promote as features that you can select

  and copy text and it's later though


  it we laugh but that actually is a

  competitive advantage that the magazine

  has over most magazines in newsstand is

  that you tense can swipe partial page at

  a time don't have to swipe the screen at

  a time right is a future

  alright i have a couple of things i

  wanna talk about let's take a break it

  and i want to tell you about our second

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  talking about where I have been

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  iphone and that I feel like a lot of

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  you can just set a new set of filters

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  I I haven't seen there's a whole bunch

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  you can it's up here taste how much you

  like them

  this one has an interface that to me is

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  really really like it i and i will

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  good app i've been using a lot the last

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  actually tonic something no no greater

  and greater this is you know this is I

  think this is a great where maybe maybe

  grid or daring fireball theme in general

  I think and one of the things that I

  think it's like I love the fact that we

  have all of these small developers many

  people figure out a way to make either

  part or all of their living and

  sometimes have many employees even but

  they're still these independent shops

  auteur vision you know the clarity of


  they're not answering to other people

  there's no investors it's just a

  bootstrap themselves they're doing

  something that is what they want to do

  and coincidentally something that we all

  like him on a bike that's great yeah our

  knowledge economy great great app really

  really encourage you guys to buy it and

  and support to show and support really

  really innovative to me and interface in

  in photo editing for iOS

  so where it shows already gone long but

  I want to talk a little bit about some

  of the news that's going on this week

  the big news i think it's an office key

  Steven Sinofsky getting getting the boot

  from Microsoft holy cow will the yeah

  and I think you can exchange we

  exchanged tweets about this the the

  analysis I've seen a few places was he

  was seen as the successor and was

  clearly told he wasn't gonna be alright

  and so he said alright well that's

  enough I'm done you know if I'm not

  there is no there's a glass ceiling and

  bomber standing on it so goodbye and and

  that would make sense and yeah I not

  tell you know I met with him for the

  first and I guess only time that he's

  going to be a Microsoft I met with him I

  got a nice little 10-minute meet you

  know at the windows 8 event in New York

  two weeks ago I and i'm not going to say

  I have any you know whether he had any

  inkling or not I you know I don't think

  I would have been able to pick up on it

  anyway but I i I'd I can't help but

  think that he didn't because I do feel

  that he had a lot of ideas

  going forward you know like one of the

  things we had talked about was that uh

  that windows 8 was designed with a more

  like iOS style update schedule in mind

  where it's going to be a lot easier for

  people who have let's say like a surface

  to get an upgrade you know when if

  windows 8.1 comes out or something I

  don't pick a version number but it's

  gonna be a lot more like a way that iOS

  devices and Android devices more like

  the mobile world where device updates

  can get pushed to you and you can stay

  you know new features can be added than

  the old pc world where it has been a bit

  of a grind a lot of people don't upgrade

  until they buy a new machine and he

  seemed very excited about that

  yeah i'm i'm wondering if it's uh you

  know they shipped eight and they huddled

  with the board and whatever else he said

  ok you know I did this thing we've got

  the markets out there we did an

  incredible thing and what's next and was

  told bombers here frist reupping MCO or

  not gonna get more responsibility

  because it was weird you know he didn't

  fail he did a great job

  I mean for all the flaws that you want

  to that we could point out with windows

  8 or surface or strategy that there's a

  lot of things but i think this is

  Microsoft's the best thing they've done

  I don't know since when well he has 22

  successfully sort of he has two

  successes under his belt with Windows

  and Office was always offers never hit

  those roadblocks you know he used to be

  in charge of office and office continue

  to ship on time through that dry period

  the XP years where I for vista was stuck

  forever you know the one was called long

  war and they haven't given me actually

  had to give it a new name just because a

  long-winded had been it just have gotten

  so old you know

  so windows vista shipped and was you

  know widely you know it collectively

  considered a bat you know pretty pretty

  terrible release unpopular not not well


  that's when he took over windows he had

  nothing to do with this day he was in

  charge of office then so they have said

  all right

  sonakshi's done a good job with office

  will give him windows windows seven was

  he is a huge hit

  absolutely and worship and release it

  was a improvement in every way and just

  shot on dresser address with lsr it's

  got that had better security

  enrich mobile said that windows seven

  had better security than of which 10

  tops 6 or 10 i said that they had done

  so much more that was right and you see

  that that's when all the malware people

  look better to you moved to flash and

  third-party apps because they could no

  longer exploit windows look better work

  better solved

  what was the biggest technical problem

  which was security stuff and I can't

  emphasize it enough most importantly

  shipped on time then windows 8 huge

  innovation in terms of the interface in

  that conception of it you know the true

  revolution in the interface of windows

  shipped on time right whether or not you

  agree with the choices they made they

  were not modeled choices i mean you

  could say that model energy eternity too

  many fish and fowl and whatever but in

  terms of execution they did exactly what

  they said and they will be improvements

  it's kind of a 1.1 certain aspects of

  weathering surface is entirely new kind

  of product for them what they're trying

  to achieve with it but I mean all that

  aside it's like yeah they did it they

  manage stupid windows 7 windows 8

  they've got windows phone 8 is a witness

  phone was a huge deal i think you don't

  you get that out the door and then to

  upgrade that and they've made painful

  picturemate steve jobs like choices

  whether like although i think it was

  unfortunate for windows phone 7 owner

  and thought you'd be able to get an

  upgrade 28 they still did it didn't say

  because this is the problem i know a guy

  were continuing engineering at Microsoft

  for a number of years until several

  years ago it was in the XP to vista and

  that days and there was so much croft

  they had a support forever in windows

  one of the reasons windows never got

  better until I would say seven is that

  seven cut off a lot more of the past

  that's why you have this big XP seven

  gap you can't just move and you couldn't

  move everything XP to vista either but

  seven they just said we're not

  supporting contain engineering for stuff

  that ran 15 years ago and that's the

  same painful choice they made with

  Windows Phone 8 whether or not they

  should engineered phone 7 to be

  upgradeable or not they still made that

  decision i'm definitely and I think the

  other thing that was very clear to me

  always iives you know it only reaffirmed

  what my guesses were coming into meeting

  and talking to him but even with just 10

  minutes talking to him he is clearly a

  product guy

  like he he knows the surface and he

  knows what Windows 8 is he

  it is what he wants it to be and he

  really had a vision for what it what it

  would be

  he is not absolutely was not just a 80

  time at the top of the pole like he

  drove the design of it and in ways that

  I think we're very clearly that you need

  somebody like that you know that the

  auteur at the top of the you know

  enormous engineering team behind the

  whole thing to drive it with a vision

  for where it's going so I would believe

  it was a it was a you know

  ok it's time to time to figure out my

  next plan is and they said just keep

  doing what you're doing i said i've been

  here 20 years that's ready i'm ready to

  treat to do something else with my money

  and I talking about right

  many millions and millions of dollars

  you can start your company there's lots

  a lot of stuff that happens in Seattle

  that could be interesting and he could

  do something green field that's not

  beholden to the past and take his

  expertise and do thats ok well the

  interesting thing that will end it just

  you know it just does seem oddly

  coincidental a lot of people are drawing

  drawing connections to scott forstall

  attacked and for the obvious reason that

  he was in charge of the the company's

  flagship OS right that's that's both of

  those guys iOS is clearly apples windows

  i had a reputation for being difficult

  to work with have a you know you know

  seems like similar complaints about

  their their management style or

  collaboration across the company and

  perhaps you know or ambitiously both a

  wanted to be CEO of the company

  yeah I think that's it is right they

  bump up against that and these are

  people who built huge victims and and

  loyalties inside the company apart from

  say loyalty to the CEO of the company

  and their decision and I also yeah I

  also think there's a lot of loyalty

  underneath them in their divisions to

  both of them like one thing that I think

  is sort of maybe it's gotten

  misperceived out there with forestall is

  that the the sort of yeah everybody

  knows he was kind of difficult to work

  with so you know it's not totally

  shocking that this happened very

  surprising the difference between

  surprising and shocking right it's

  surprising but not shocking but then I

  feel like that's been

  hold up into this nut shell of well

  forestall was an asshole so good riddens

  and that's not the case at all

  there are people who worked under

  forestall who I've heard from who are

  very very anxious and nervous because

  they think you know that maybe forestall

  was the last you know that he was enough

  like steve jobs and had that his

  ambition was good for Apple because it

  made him not complacent and you know one

  of the things i heard from somebody

  worked under him yes he was an asshole

  and and difficult to work with across

  divisions but a lot of that he used to

  protect his people and my projects that

  they were doing and that the people a

  lot of the people who worked under him

  felt like forestall had their back and

  it's the people who were outside his

  team who didn't like him

  yeah so it is absolutely in no way like

  a no-brainer hey apples better off

  without forestall I mean that's yeah

  that's what I hear as well as that he

  had he had a lot of loyalty it was just

  if you want to do something didn't want

  to do if you're outside this group then

  it's gonna be a pain

  you know I can't wait to live from

  singleton do when the talk that Michael

  op gave about was probably about

  building teams like someone has to be a


  I mean that was part of this i love this

  talk and i can't wait till it's up

  online because everyone should watch

  this and it's about it's a really

  beautiful talk about the importance of

  somebody making a decision and how a

  group can make the decision that someone

  has to make a decision how to get to a

  point when someone's gonna say this is

  it as opposed to the you know Monty

  Python like we have a rotating executive

  authority and we have a council that

  proves the maximum of the anarchic

  syndicated notes like now someone has to

  make a decision that's the only way good

  things happen is there is a person who

  says that in the end and that's the boss

  or at some other point in a group

  whatever but you make that decision

  absolutely and it comes to making those

  decisions the one thing that strikes me

  as a big difference between the

  Microsoft and Apple situations is that

  you look at microsoft and over the last

  five years or so maybe even fewer than

  that but that the list of top-level

  executives who were in charge of product

  stuff who then I don't you know whether

  they were pushed or whether they jumped

  who knows but who left is a pretty

  significant here's the list island is

  you've got Robbie Bach who I African

  with exactly i think he was involved

  with xbox

  yeah he was a

  he was he would say a lot about to say

  but we had a roadblock i think was over

  top xbox and zune i think was under his

  authority j allard who is xbox and finer

  bach and showered together we're the

  guys who computed to be behind the

  career tablet project that got scrapped

  at internets disputed how far along it

  was but that it was a couple years ago

  though and there's you know a potential

  there that those guys could have shipped

  a8 innovative tablet type project a

  couple of years ago if they had been

  allowed to Ray Ozzy out you know

  obviously was widely seen as a possible

  next CEO of of the company and Stephen

  Elop who is priced out and now is the

  CEO at nokia and this is not you know i

  wish i had written her name down and but

  it was it's enough skis

  second-in-command who's taking over

  windows for now we actually sounds

  kick-ass i was reading about her

  background and her approach and the pic

  the way they're even the people school

  stuff that's talked about is like she

  could be a rich she sounds like she's

  going to be a really terrific

  replacement from where she comes from

  I gotta look this up because it's that's

  good job what you think i can google for

  sandusky replacement exactly a lady

  replacement for Snuffy so important

  others to women this is a microsoft

  elections always been having literally

  much Julie larson-green ya-ya and she

  just she sounds absolutely phenomenal in

  a very positive way right and and she is

  getting a lot of credit for spearheading

  the design of metric oil when I still


  Richard insist on calling metro which is

  great so it does sound like there's not

  exactly it's not like you know there's a

  vacuum that Sinofsky is out and Beyonce

  before raising he left he really he

  really architect the entire approach to

  data storage and the clouds everything

  microsoft was doing some sort of law

  school with Azure and

  SkyDrive and all the things around the

  microsoft live for windows live whatever

  they call it i think all of that stuff

  either he is responsible for or moved it

  all together and I think it's hidden

  from most people

  what a transformation that is from a

  company that was based on you know

  everyone has a personal computer and all

  the data store locally situation right

  absolutely and I think that's ir

  solutely think that's a big part of the

  appeal of Windows 8

  yeah is that it's it's built from the

  ground up with and windows phone 8 that

  it's built with the ground up that you

  give it your your or whatever

  they call it now your Microsoft you know

  their equivalent of iCloud you give it

  your login and your data just sinks to

  the class kind of love that because

  that's something that Apple could do I

  still have this idea that Apple is very

  solipsistic that it thinks it talks

  about sharing and Home Sharing and

  networking whatever but it still thinks

  about one person in one computer and one

  person on one computer and I'll and over

  time it's gotten better but the fact

  that that they don't they don't give you


  I mean I cloud doesn't really think

  about you being in different places at

  different times on different devices the

  way people actually do it it's getting


  I think it still needs more important a

  great way to put its lipstick that is

  true that the company is there it in

  Apple's DNA get home sharing for

  instance related items like oh this will

  be great it's like i'm sharing a home

  story about copying stuff between

  machines apple is always about copying

  not syncing and not sharing they want to

  move copies of data that's itunes match

  and you know they move it stream it

  whatever in and i can tell you that

  other people have said like I wish my

  ipad could have user account so I could

  have my kids stuff on in my I mean yeah

  that's not a the wouldn't break apples

  model of how the ipad work would be an

  enhancement but they just want you to

  buy multiple iPads i guess i don't know

  but anyway no offense to Julie

  larson-green who does seem like it's a

  good choice to take over windows but

  she's she's moving up into the executive

  ranks at Microsoft in terms of

  long-standing top-level product first

  focus executives they're all out like


  whereas at Apple it's still even with

  you know that some reasonable amount of

  turnover over the years you know it with

  the Bert Ron leaving and are between Ian

  before him and

  Rubenstein Rubenstein intelligence

  liddell there's a long wait but the

  funny thing is a long list of people

  left Apple at a high level but they're

  so long list of people have been there

  for a long time right johnny is Johnny I

  people are throwing up so you have ten

  year plus veterans or 15-year veterans

  are people go back to next even having

  lost like seven or eight names you get

  the stuff right

  so in the the you know not to be

  gruesome but let's say they hit by a bus

  scenario where tim cook needs to be

  replaced suddenly are surprisingly I

  they have a wide range of candidates

  right there within the company to think

  about microsoft doesn't it does seem

  like there's a bit of a Shakespearean uh

  you know that bomber is a sort of

  nervous king who soon as anybody you

  know rises up there they're out you know

  their heads come off

  I think it's true and it's very easy to

  fail at microsoft and the things you

  need to succeed and obviously the

  remarkable job actually succeeding at

  them is I it's that it's so hard to get

  anything done that requires breaking

  silos there and I think surface i want

  any windows phone seven and eight

  surface even some smokes and zune

  because it left them in the ear creating

  new silo that just bypassed all the

  existing departments and in windows 8

  all these things required cooperation

  and integration among people who don't

  want to work together and he made it

  happen and I mean that's what I'm

  excited about the new Apple organization

  is the old sort of breakdowns and make

  sense in the new thing of like services

  software and hardware is much more

  sensible in terms of what they need to

  get done they have to work at a high

  level across those groups but Microsoft

  has so many films that it is very very

  easy to be put in charge of high-profile

  project and fail because you cannot

  break through the other high-profile

  people who don't want to do the thing

  you need

  i seed I could not agree more and i

  really think you just nailed it and I do

  think that is too and that's what I'm

  left at looking at the difference

  between Apple and Microsoft from a

  structural standpoint especially post

  forestall is this lack of product

  focused silos right where we're

  forestall had he owned iOS he you know

  forestall was iOS and that was his

  fiefdom and it was obviously if you look

  at Apple what what what iOS means

  Apple it's a powerful fiefdom uh there

  isn't anything like that left anymore

  and and I think the idea is going

  forward if Apple is going to continue to

  stay on top they need the same sort of

  mindset they've had for the last 15

  years which is this lack of fear of

  cannibalizing themselves

  mhm right where it doesn't matter if the

  iphone makes people stop selling buying

  music playing ipods because they're just

  playing music on their iPhone because

  they're still buying another Apple

  device it doesn't matter if the ipad

  makes people stop buying macbooks or buy

  fewer of them because they're buying an

  apple device and so if they come up with

  something that makes people say i don't

  know stop buying iphones or stop buying

  iPads as long as it's an apple product

  it's ok but they don't want to have

  powerful executives in charge of those

  things who are blocking it

  this is the first time Microsoft been in

  that position where they had the thing

  that could replace their cash cow right

  because they own stuff and the way they

  didn't licensed and have a stake in the

  success of the phone 8 people stopped

  buying pcs they're great they're like if

  they sell a billion surfaces and pc

  sales drop 95% they're in great shape

  and that's the first time since ever

  that's been true for Microsoft time so

  the way and the way Apple setup is that

  are there shouldn't be executives

  blocking that because whatever the new

  great thing is the hardware is going to

  be designed by jony ive and the software

  i guess now we'll be visually and maybe

  you know it's it's unclear what is roll

  software will be but you know it is

  going to be design is johnny knox that

  that's what he does so it doesn't matter

  what product the marketing is going to

  be done by phil schiller doesn't matter

  it doesn't know shoulder doesn't have to

  worry about something it's not like

  those shoulders in charge of ipad

  marketing is in charge of all Apple

  marketing the software is going to be

  engineered by craig federighi is team

  right so nobody really has a product

  centric fiefdom to protect as long as

  it's something new from apple i think

  it's a very interesting way to structure

  the executive executives of the company

  and generally not guaranteed to work i

  mean the big problem is you've got to

  come up with these ideas in the first

  place but

  I think that's clearly the vision I've

  is the is the vice president of director

  of bauhaus I think he's gonna be all

  form follows function whatever that

  means inside the company where he

  doesn't have to direct the way the

  hardware works but he's not responsible

  for the interaction with it as I think

  he has been I'm so I want to know a big

  bob mansfield comes up with what is his

  next direction because he's he is

  clearly like I think Bob Mansfield

  nobody's been underrated but the guy is

  responsible for so much innovation there

  have so much the behind-the-scenes

  things clearly the manufacturing side

  and the advances of hardware he has been

  key and making those things happen that

  allow the company to you know sell the

  ipad at five more dollars introdução

  forth so I want to know what he's

  working just think about what what I

  mean I think mansfield gets a huge

  amount of credit for this I think I

  believe I'd be shocked if he didn't but

  I just think about what happened to

  battery design over the last 10 years

  like it used to be something I mean I it

  I can't even remember the last time that

  I saw a review of an apple product where

  it did complain about the unremovable

  battery like they've finally crammed it

  through everybody's heads out there that

  this is the way to go with battery

  design is you know I see more and more

  you see more reviews what they're

  complaining about the battery life of

  other devices that's flipped on its head

  right tremendously you know whens other

  devices now have built-in batteries too

  because they've gone with the shapes

  lithium right thing as well but these

  crazy shapes that like II almost spill

  like a liquid through every available

  likes home every available square

  millimeter of space inside the device is

  taken up by a battery

  ah i think is a huge you know mansfield

  driven innovation I think that the you

  know the way that people think about

  battery-powered devices is hugely

  influenced by what he's done over the

  last 10 years

  what's funny is i got the craziest

  comment on an economist blog entry about

  skeuomorphism and I wasn't saying Scott

  Forstall was fired because it but I said

  we could see changes because he was a

  proponent of it and I've is not and a

  lot of people hate some of the where's

  the script installer piece called sku

  you right and they're screaming a crazy

  comment on it was like Apple does not

  make hardware for the Apple contracts

  all its hardware manufacturer it is not

  responsible for them like you can be

  get to respond to it was just this it

  was just this wonderful thing it's like

  I don't think you understand what making

  means any more like making is now you

  know the unit's it's the fabulous chip

  design thing that goes back now for

  decades practice be is companies that

  make electronics are responsible for so

  you know it's the architectural side of

  it the manufacturers now we competitive

  they can find the best firm to do it

  once this whole thing about samsung

  maybe they stopped working with Samsung

  great there are plenty of other

  companies would be delighted to pick up

  a multi-billion dollar contract for

  screens and other things you might take

  the time to get production ramped up but

  but it's out there well and look at what

  Apple is done with things like unibody

  aluminum construction right i mean this

  is something that note there were no

  devices that were like this and now all

  of apples devices are like this where

  they start with blocks of aluminum and

  drill the case out of one solid piece of

  aluminum I mean is there anything left

  Apple makes it isn't can't be described

  that way the mac men no women started

  the mini I've got in front of the mini

  well no I think they do I don't think

  that's actually constructed a feeling it

  right now but it is a part of the apple

  TV is not aluminum right that's plastic

  that's right but that's about no I think

  you're right the airport extra port

  express holistic to gadgets maybe but I

  still think that the best way to think

  of apple TV is not really as a device

  but as I kept peripheral yeah absolutely

  only a couple on apple TV 2 add Wi-Fi

  and then your kid you know it could be

  Apple express TV and you're all done i

  guess the mac pro is probably not you

  know body I don't know what not yet when

  the next one will be obviously right

  next one will be but all the macbooks

  are the imax are now with the the latest

  revisions to the iphone and ipad they

  all are you know it's you know and

  that's it's hugely innovative that you

  start with these blocks of aluminum and

  drill things out of it and it gives

  their products this incredible build

  quality and feel dif that is unlike

  everybody else you know like a truly a

  blind person can really sense a visceral

  aesthetic difference between Apple

  products and competing products and they

  started down this path materials science

  has been

  an overlooked part of efficiency

  overlooked as you see it's sort of from

  the outside but I think like even the

  Bondi blue the original translucent

  plastic they use that no one else was

  using for computers i think it was

  already in vacuum cleaners wasn't famous

  things at the time but I think Apple

  since I've came on and since jobs came

  back they have looked material advances

  as a way to more fully express the

  vision in a way that other companies

  have been unable to other companies say

  I all they're doing that will do that

  because we can use that material to as

  opposed to why is no other firm looking

  for the next interesting material

  advances that would give them a unique

  innovative look I mean Samsung we're

  looking at the Prophet samsung is

  producing now I want samsung I want

  microsoft to be making stuff that is as

  interesting as what Apple does with the

  same functionality in the same build

  quality there's no excuse from not doing

  it I would often or design side I don't

  think Samsung even tries but i will give

  it I'll give i will give Microsoft

  credit with the surface for trying and I

  think that the surface is he is the

  closest I've seen you know to to apple

  style build quality it is very nice i

  think and they also even from a material

  standpoint I don't think it's as nice as

  the aluminum but i do think that the

  magnesium whatever stop witnessing is a

  pretty good don't you want don't you

  want to wake up one day and say company

  X is doing something that is new I mean

  that's what we all felt about the UI for

  metro was like oh my god microsoft is

  broken the window broken through the

  glass here and done something I want the

  same thing harbor I want to get up one

  day and say this thing is oh my god what

  they're doing with the technology with

  the science it's beautiful it's


  it's unique and it's an advanced and I

  want someone to do that that's not apple

  and it's not a company that sells

  twenty-thousand-dollar components of

  some kind

  right exactly i mean it talked to gone

  on long enough to let me toss out

  something I have to bring it up because

  I've seen it on twitter too many times

  because it sounds so soap opera be

  perfect is the idea that either one or

  both of scoffs kira or forestall will

  switch teams and maybe forestall will

  take takeover software microsoft and/or

  Sinofsky would would end up at Apple

  that would be hilarious i don't know

  what the culture class was like I can

  imagine forestall going to Microsoft

  because they're looking for something

  different innovative

  give him a ton of power and he could

  just come in and do what he wants to do

  break heads fire people and hire new

  folks and it makes changes i wonder if

  Sinofsky come brought into apple would

  be able to be slotted into a position

  where he would feel like he had enough

  authority has of the sanctions I don't

  think there's any chance to knock

  Goodwin up at Apple because i don't

  think there's room form right Craig

  federighi is already there charge of

  software and I think that's the only

  sort of position that that that he would

  take I think it's more likely that he's

  gonna do something you know like Tony

  Fadell who started nest

  exactly and i think the same is true for

  forestall 2 i'd i would he is so

  ambitious and he's clear he is so smart

  and so successful

  there is no doubt in my mind we have not

  heard the lost last of scott forstall

  but i would expect it to be something

  more like what Fidel did with his own

  startup and being the CEO and doing

  something outside you know I don't know

  you know who would have thought

  thermostat by know it's all that looks

  like a sonos solace was not top level of

  people but some great mid-level Apple

  people started sonos and it's like the

  gold standard around 14 10 8 or 10 years

  now and so does is the apple of you know

  home stereo equipment something out

  there that under our noses and none of

  us see it but something like that i was

  cars because a car automotive systems

  are terrible almost uniformly and

  Microsoft actually develops one of them

  you do there's there are six million

  systems equipped with onstar that are

  turned on right now I mean there's I

  forget the number that have onstar

  built-in that are activated there is

  room for some really tremendous work at

  automotive integration in car

  entertainment systems and logistics and

  whatever and that's the space enforcer

  has exactly the right experience outside

  we forgot the automotive side with the

  making that part work and there's a ton

  of money there

  the thing I can't ask my prediction I

  couldn't see forestall going to

  Microsoft either unless they wanted to

  give him something new that he could do

  from the ground up

  he's not going to take over windows

  though because he already had an OS that

  was exactly what he wanted it to be iOS

  there's nothing in iOS that forestall

  didn't want in it

  right it's exactly you know it is the

  the everything including the programming

  language you use to make it and the

  framework which is you know this second

  generation version of the next thing

  that forestall had been working on since

  1989 anyway with all exactly what he

  wanted and all of it very very different

  than windows there's no way he's gonna

  go in there and take over windows

  because obviously don't ask you

  something quickly though the fireworks

  were so long so OS 10 running an arm

  right gonna happen

  oh def i think i would be shocked if

  it's not already running arm just love

  story that's a forestall feeling but

  it's your anyway they've got to have it

  in the lab of course they have right i

  wouldn't be surprised if it's the exact

  same lab where it used to run on Intel

  excite you know visit every disease ALS

  is on arm so of coordinates

  I don't know who I don't know exactly

  how compiled into virgins at the kernel

  level one suspect that they have

  commonly been running stuff on multiple

  kinds of chips including arm since they

  released a OS 10 or two years or three

  years for the least os10 in iOS form1

  assume so I heard that rumor and I was

  like that doesn't seem like a big

  transition at all I mean will be hard

  for the programmers but you know rosena

  made that transition if they can do the

  same kind of thing they can have a new

  Rosetta forearm if it's good it's

  capable which i think it was i would be


  if they didn't have as an engineering

  principle throughout all of Mac os10 I

  you know a hard-and-fast rules in place

  that you've you know don't put any it

  don't program anything Intel specific in

  here or if you really do need to go and

  do something in assembler here's you

  know block it off very very neatly so

  that it can be duplicated you know in a

  in a in a processor agnostic fashion but

  it seems totally logical to me I heard

  the rumor and I was like well fine I

  mean why not because that uncouples

  again from another point failure and

  they have much more control over arm its

  chips it's just a question of their

  forties and I do think it's easy to

  forget just how much more performance I

  heavy Mac os10 is than iOS just based on

  you know just based on the fun of on the

  the the the rules for process lifetime

  you know that you can run multiple

  things side by side

  and that your will your Safari tabs

  continue processing javascript in the

  background as opposed to on iOS where as

  soon as you leave safari it's all put to

  sleep but think about all the stuff

  they've added to Mac os10 in the last

  two releases along those lines of if you

  follow these api's your app might be put

  to sleep right and i think that you know

  and I think that has performance

  benefits on Intel but i think it's very

  very clearly about keeping our options

  open going forward I mean imagine that

  there's that whole thing to those you

  can I mean there could be armed trips

  with you could have 16-core 32 or arm

  chips are multiple I mean the not their

  magic or anything but I think apples

  that everything can with grand central

  or your grandcentral all their

  multiprocessing multi-threading and all

  that is that conceivably you can slip

  stream in a super cord getting that's

  not eight you know what's the topic the

  mac pro is a torque whatta ya want

  everything I think I've got a 16-2 16

  but conceivably you know I keep reading

  about that's the only know but it is all

  about ass advanced yeah

  grand central dispatch is all about one

  thing which is the idea that you're

  going to have slower more

  energy-efficient kors but more of them

  and that that's how performance is going

  to increase and how can you best take

  advantage of that in a way that's

  friendly to developers as it doesn't

  make their minds explosive all the ways

  that that parallel programming

  traditionally could yeah I now and

  imagine just imagine a macbook air

  that's arm-based how much thinner and

  lighter it could be it could be could

  you know all of a sudden it might make

  our existing errors look patent heavy

  I mean apples design apple designs in

  eggs in X in X inexorably go in the

  direction of thinner thinner and lighter

  yeah i'm not even think like imagine

  something that's a madness smaller than

  a mac mini I mean I assume that for

  apple that they that the mac mini

  actually feels big to them now so

  something that was even smaller and all

  the capability it's going to solid-state

  you only sold with a solid state drive

  with arm processors that runs cooler has

  thunderbolt and USB 3 and and that's it

  and I would also say to don't don't

  count them out on the ipod front either

  in terms of like getting don't not just

  thinking about arm chips that

  are powerful enough to run Mac os10 in

  any fashion but I think to about armed

  ships that are small enough to be on

  like nano typed yes yes because they

  have their that's that it's the

  diversity of the arm ecosystem that I

  think is it's not only can they bit out

  where it gets made them greater

  flexibility and control and costs and

  sources but that the range of arm is so

  huge compared to what Intel can offer

  them right now on the sort of monolithic

  if you scale what think about like an

  ARM chip or a system-on-a-chip and

  apples perspective where you're thinking

  about a device that says like watch size

  like like the old man knows but

  therefore because it's so small you

  don't need to worry about powerful

  graphics processing because whatever

  this screen has even if it's a Retina

  screen at that size it's not going to

  require significant graphics processing

  I just think about a little tiny super

  low power thing with the cpu of like an

  a5 bluetooth for and you know what kind

  of crazy things you can do with such a

  little little thing you have the I


  Oh grant somebody that I did not buy

  Apple watch but I don't know where it is

  that when sometimes the devil elevation

  doc finished shipping last month and

  they now have lightning adapters and

  soon sunday lightning connectors yeah

  I'll come it'll all come around

  yeah well Glenn thank you very much for

  being as a great show pleasures i want

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