The Talk Show

20: Live From Çingleton, with Brent Simmons


  so screw the space guy will start to

  talk show

  alright alright since since we're

  montreal I thought and and Brent i'm

  here with brent Simmons who he wanted me

  to introduce wanted to be cable sound

  very capable sasser papers so much

  funnier than I am right and every single

  live thing I've ever done with an

  interview thing has always been with

  cable sasser because he's brilliant

  right it's like a cheesy move

  yeah because then me was like sort of

  miserable and not really that good


  the effusive Mr Cable sasser just rubs

  off and anybody anybody would look

  friendly and and professional onstage so

  there's a lot of pressure on your brain

  yeah okay well do what I can the truth

  is I was a up a bit late last night

  entirely the fault of John's wife who

  wouldn't let me sleep anyway

  got anything with that cake you've

  already gone such a different direction

  than cable goes no I thought here's the

  thing one thing maybe people don't know

  you spent a year two years living in


  yeah yeah many years ago right here but

  I thought since we're here we're here

  today as we record it is sunday october

  fourteenth we're in montreal quebec and

  at the tail end after like the

  after-party of the singleton the second

  singleton symposium I thought it'd be

  nice if we did the whole show conducted

  the whole show in French a deco so how

  did he say welcome

  Bienvenue Bienvenue à l'heure talk show

  I think it looks showed the talk is your

  pal john grew Berra simple cable Sarah


  no fuck you nah I'm out of friends just

  that it's all I got

  alright so before I have a couple things

  I want to talk about and and over here

  there's I don't know hundred people here

  honored it seems like everybody state

  which is great thank you for saying I

  obviously we can't just recap the whole

  conference you really had to be here you

  should have been your shame on everybody

  who wasn't here you're looking right at

  me what you're all but it was really

  really good but i do think there are a

  couple of things that I picked up from

  the talks over the weekend that you

  didn't have to be here and we can we can

  use them to start the show from so the

  official theme of the conference was

  quote-unquote scale and then you know I

  think it kind of it but I think what I

  saw from seeing all of the things to me

  it was more about change

  yeah starting with Jason smells keynote

  the opening night which really talked

  about changing the technology industry

  change in the publishing industry and

  how in his role at macworld at igg it's

  sort of like the nexus of both it's all

  about the change in technology over the

  last 15 years and the change in the

  publishing industry and and I think it

  carried on from there I think juries my

  career which is talk the next morning

  was really about change in being an

  apple developer which is get out

  I mean everybody here knows I mean it's

  not the list all the ways that life has

  changed for iOS developers well there

  was no such thing as iOS developers

  right or i should say objective-c

  developing out right there yeah you know

  your life has changed you know my career

  started in my professional software

  Chris are around 95 96 and I wanted to

  be a Mac Developer at the very worst

  possible time to be a Mac Developer and

  things have certainly changed for the

  better since then

  well and I think you're a good example

  to of somebody who sort of followed the

  advice and marcos thing about your


  damn rancis thing were Michael ops thing

  was everybody here should be thinking

  that they're going to do something

  different in three years every three

  years ago your you tend to be doing

  something different

  yeah with the exception of working for

  nine years on that newswire right but

  there were three different versions

  maybe but it did it changed a lot over

  those years and you never it became a

  big hit and it was really all on your

  mac and then there was a huge change

  where it went to sinking somehow right

  right i spent a lot of time working on

  sinking before there was really any good

  sinking solutions out there course that

  we have icloud which is perfect but

  problem-solving yeah yeah no doubt

  sinking remains just one of the most

  difficult and ballbusting things to work

  on I hate it with a passion and I don't

  do it anymore

  ah another thing I thought was and in

  marco marco called his talk scaling your

  career but I really thought it would

  have fit better if titled changing your

  career in adapting your career right and

  the other underlying message I thought

  in session after session all weekend


  is that a lot of this change is not

  really your choice

  it's not you two making do you often

  have a lot of choices in life but a lot

  of it is you've got to get with the

  program because the train is leaving the

  station and if you're not on it you're

  like you're gonna get left behind but

  some it makes me think of swimming in

  the ocean so much different than

  swimming in a pool right in a pool you

  can do what you want do laps whatever in

  the ocean you have to you've got waves

  to deal with and they're going to come

  whether you're looking or not and

  whether you're ready or not

  yeah that makes me think that as soon as

  you said that I thought you were going

  to divide i was going to say there's

  that phrase rising tide lifts all boats

  rightly ads so that's good and had to

  have the people write it also the rising

  tide often like watches you doubt the

  undertow and you found yet

  indeed that you've got to be careful

  where the answer England so you've

  switched and now you're your thing right

  now your big thing you're working on is


  sport right so how many people here have

  been using glass board this weekend

  try some it's going really really all I

  mean that was for those of you listening

  at home i would say that was everybody's

  hand and there's still one guy with his

  hand up

  he really likes class point ah in a

  sense I honestly I mean this in a

  sincere way like I know there's the this

  you can't get up here and talk without

  mentioning steve jobs at least once

  baked and he had that phrase you didn't

  want to make a dent in the universe

  right right so glass board has made at

  least to some extent a little dent in

  the conference going experience for

  everybody like at least in text circle

  while Sherri that keeps your Twitter

  feeds or ATM feeds a bit more clear

  since we can move all this stuff

  glassport which anyway but the most

  rewarding thing to me is seeing my peers

  and friends whose my software I've had

  that experience before with news wiring

  and Mars at it and having it again with

  glass bored you know just seeing it on

  people's phones is like that's just

  fucking awesome

  I i totally love it I don't even care

  about money at this point just that my

  friends are using my stuff I feel good

  but you still need to pay the bills so

  you've got the thing I don't need to be

  someone else has to be the glass so

  glassport started as a totally free and

  including the backend like and that's

  got to be a significant part of it yeah

  we've got a real messaging so the cost

  of that stuff have have come down a ton

  over the years I mean we're using a

  major and which is like you know one of

  these many scalable virtual things that

  better understand because I right client

  apps but it's a lot less expensive than

  it used to be two to do these backend

  services but recently you guys have

  added and you call it a pro tier i

  forget what you call a premium premium

  right uh how is that is it taken off we

  have a few customers

  yeah I i signed and by you I mean yeah I

  think it's like three

  how hard was it to you

  our part was to draw the line at where

  you switch from the free service which

  you really do want to be useful to

  everybody right because if it was all

  paid or if it was really limited there's

  no way all those hands would have gone

  up right of course I think it I think we

  took the slightly lazy way and we said

  whatever we haven't done yet

  that's for pay and whatever it is now is

  the free so pretty interesting way to do

  it so going forward most new features

  are going to be yeah yeah right not all

  the most you know and I have to admit

  you know somebody works alone its it

  unsurprising that i tend to use it like

  I put a couple screens back and then I

  come to a conference and boom drag it to

  the front screen writing to me it's it's

  like conference board like that's when i

  use glass board but you guys designed it

  also specifically with yourselves in

  mind like a eating your own dog food way

  that yep this is the way your team is

  going to communicate with each other

  yeah that'll work told ya it its are you

  know we don't use email we don't use no

  IRS here whenever we just use glass

  bored all day long and it works great as

  you know way of working together it's

  fantastic and that was the plan i mean

  we didn't set out to make a conference

  where we set out to make you know work

  group thing and yeah it's fucking great

  when you're when you're a working

  typical workday are you using the web

  interface too because there's no mac

  client for it yet

  yeah that's right its iOS and web

  well I'm i used the web mainly during

  the day because the because the iOS

  client i'm actually working on at the

  moment and it may not actually build and

  run you know so yeah I tend to use the

  web alot

  yeah ah I and I asked that because it

  made maybe it should have been obvious

  because it

  well of course you're going to use the

  web because you want to use your big

  keyboard and if there's no backlight

  you're going to use the web but the

  reason i ask is because i often find

  myself it during the day while I'm


  if I'm going to check twitter or use

  twitter i will use my phone instead of

  something on my mac a lot of the time

  because then i'll keep it not running on

  my mac to not be distracted but it off

  it actually is like a useful way it

  almost feels like using my iphone as a

  second screen and I just keep twitter


  yeah and it kind of keeps me from using

  it more than I would if it was on my mac

  right sure

  yeah it's a your phone is great for

  bathroom breaks and so on right it's

  perfect now i actually use it at the

  desk though I myself using my phone at

  my desk for specifically for Twitter

  like if I just gonna take a little break

  from the whatever i'm writing or working

  or reading i'll check twitter see ya as

  a as an iOS developer my phone is

  useless because it's running my software

  in in debug mode so yeah I want to go

  back to some of the stuff that jury had

  talked about yesterday and is for those

  of you don't know my drawer which used

  to work at apple recently left to go to

  black pixel worked in developer

  relations and you know so from a very

  recent vantage point was giving

  everybody at the conference a sort of

  here's some dope from a guy who is

  inside Apple really at the intersection

  of where third-party developers interact

  with apple and giving them some honest

  advice as to how did how to deal with

  apple and a lot of it goes back to what

  I said about change being outside your

  control right so like sandbox and mac

  apps is a perfect example of that where

  developers have all sorts of problems

  with it it it didn't roll out as

  smoothly technically as it could have

  and it's a really hard transition you

  know it's definitely I think one of the

  biggest problems with it is that the mac

  has not had sandboxing for 20-some years

  right and now it does and that's a lot

  harder than iOS which debuted with this

  sandboxing mindset

  yeah we never even thought of it as

  sandboxing really it's just how it


  yea-ah injuries advice was about anybody

  to say i wrote this down and get over it

  i think i think that's what he said mike

  is that what you said and that's sort of

  a brash way of saying it but i do think

  you know he's kind of requisite you can

  sit there and complain

  about it and not get anything done or

  you can deal with it and move forward

  and I've always thought over the years

  like when you blog about development and

  how you approach stuff I you never get

  upset you didn't it maybe you do

  privately but like you always seem

  unruffled and even when you get a raw


  it's like you just don't seem to be used

  like well that's what I got a deal

  yeah right well there's you know that

  there's no fighting City Hall i guess

  the old phrase right and right so like

  if you you know there are things you

  just you can't change i'm not going to

  make I'm not personally gonna get Apple

  to stop sandboxing I mean so so like

  years ago when you were still developing

  that news where I would say one of your

  city halls that you had to fight was

  Google Reader which you used you can eat

  you guys use that newsgator as a sinking

  back end right yeah i mean just can you

  just talk some of the problems you dealt

  with that

  well yeah man google reader is

  fantastically popular RSS aggregator and

  we used it as are sinking back end and

  it has an undocumented and unsupported

  API and I had sworn to myself earlier in

  life I don't ever use undocumented

  unsupported api's and yet there i was

  suddenly doing it and I had little

  choice google reader was the thing that

  everybody used and it was it's it was a

  must-do feature and I lost a lot of hair

  and a lot of sleep and trying to get

  that to work and and i don't think i

  ever got a working all that well before

  I ended up selling it to the black pixel

  folks and now it's their headache and

  set up behind but but you know it was it

  was a thing I you know but you never do

  it you never publicly really you you

  would explain if there were deficiencies

  or you know you would explain as best

  she could be you never seem to get upset

  and you just like this is my hand to

  play right gotta move forward on exactly

  because life's too short to spend it

  bitching you gotta get work done and

  ship software so right and i think one

  of the things people you know that

  developers I think because they're so

  by definition rationally minded have a

  keen sense of justice and of course

  everybody self interested in everybody

  you know if it's close call wants things

  to go their way but I think what

  developers or third-party developers see

  and complain about with the mac app

  store and sandboxing is that Apple is

  kinda cheating them with their own apps

  but they totally are but but we always

  knew they would write I mean right

  because it's their store exactly right

  it can do whatever they want to do and

  so you know I I I don't even I hope this

  isn't getting Paul into trouble but I

  know Papa faucet told me that I think

  vision rogue amoebas audio editor had

  problems with sandboxing restrictions

  for something something that happens to

  be the exact same thing that garage band

  does tech right of any yeah and I don't

  know if garageband sandbox yet but the

  fact that it's if it isn't even sandbox

  get that just speaks more to the rules

  you know for third-party developers are

  not the same rules that Apple place but

  yeah and but we never expected that they

  would and anybody who did expect that

  apple would play by those rules is must

  be new here

  ah one of the other things that the jury

  had talked about and I think it comes up

  a lot in a developer conference is the

  concept of technical debt and it

  manifests itself in many ways I and I

  think marcos talk about your career kind

  of touched on this certainly Michael ops

  thing I did to wear if you're too

  attached to what you've done to the way

  things were to what you were good at you

  can really get into trouble because the

  world around you

  moves forward right right and one of the

  things you it's like a repeating things

  like it always comes up is that you

  Brent Simmons love to delete code hat

  that's what gets me up in the morning I

  i love deleting code almost more than

  anything else you know I i I've written

  some wonderful clever great things that

  that then the OS add support for and I

  can just delete those which she said the

  thing about the table cells


  so in the last person that needs work

  for mac i did i did you know a

  uitableview like thing on the Mac you

  know so it was a you know a table that

  use vuze instead of cells and it had the

  same dq'ing mechanism and all that kind

  of stuff and it was really fast i tested

  it tested with a million rows and did

  everything and it was it is magical I

  loved it was some of the coolest UI code

  I ever wrote and then they added support

  for that in the OS and I could go gon

  get rid of it

  delete the whole thing and I think your

  natural instincts always lead you to

  your ear

  I think you're a little off the charts

  in that direction where you don't need

  it's not that you have like this regret

  like oh and I'd that was beautiful code

  now i have to maybe I should delete it

  you're like happy to do i acttally i get

  a thrill out of deleting my best code

  yeah I think I would if I were writing

  code for living I would probably be more

  likely to be at the other end and be too

  attached to the thing i did like I do

  and I if I have a weakness as a one-man

  show writing operation is that I i

  probably should delete more of what I've

  written sometimes if it interrupts the

  confeds it's a good passage and I feel

  like there's something good about it but

  it might make the whole piece better if

  I just took it out I'm less likely to

  kill that I probably should be here than

  I would be if I had in a separate editor

  or something like that

  well you know that there's old writing

  advice is it kill your darlings yeah

  something like that murder your

  daughter's murder your darlings or you

  know when I was very young my journalism

  teacher said Brent find the best sense

  in that and and delete that and then

  chip what chip the rest of it right you

  know because um and and she was fighting

  against the tendency to you don't get

  too attached to some you know clever bit

  of wordplay or something you know it and

  it then stop is stronger when you get

  rid of that right and I've one thing I

  do find myself doing often is deleting

  the first sentence of a piece which I am

  attached to em I because it's something

  that's good and it got me started and

  broke broke the chains and got the got

  me actually moving my fingers on the

  keyboard but then when I go back and

  read it all over again it really really


  better if i start with the second

  paragraph yeah yeah it happens all the


  yeah the real lead is is is the second

  sentence writing paragraph something

  overly clever and and off off the tone

  of the rest of the piece drivers i could

  probably a good were well we're about 20

  minutes and so why don't I take the time

  now and i'll do the sponsor break we

  only have one sponsor for this very

  special show the magazine from our good

  friend and we've already mentioned a few

  times the show Marco Arment so where's

  Marco think he's out there to areas so

  the magazine is really interesting it's

  it's marco has taken what sort of the

  skeleton of instapaper which i'm going

  to assume everybody out there knows and

  instead of making a thing where you send

  articles to it and and stash it and read

  it he's taken the skeleton of his

  articles and here's a nice presentation

  area and I really nice reading interface

  and he's gone into publishing himself

  and he's had you know is one issue is

  out right now as we do the show there's

  there's one issue and it's just great

  it's loaded up with singleton talent

  we've got got an article by our friend

  good guy English we've got article and

  baseball and text from Jason Snell who

  is the other would the Oh Michael lobby

  yeah I analysis pain who is not here

  shame on him

  why doesn't always pay not here if

  everybody else from the issue i don't

  think i've seen in front since seafloor

  probably i don't know but it was a

  really great article that was for

  dynamite articles all over the place and

  are not all over the place but of widely

  different topics and it's just a real

  simple idea and the simple idea

  financially is buck 99 would have but 99

  how often a month buck ninety-nine a

  month and you get two issues a month of

  really thoughtful really interesting

  articles and it it seems so simple and i

  think it's going to

  like Marco in his introduction said I do

  i know that this is gonna work I don't


  yeah but i it's going to and it has all

  sorts of stuff that I think is just it

  sounds ridiculous that this is the sort

  of thing that deserves praise but you

  can like select text right there like

  how crazy is it that that's actually a

  feature deserving praise in an app for

  reading when the OS has a feature that

  like you select a word and you can get a

  little button to define if you know

  somebody uses the word you don't know if

  you subscribed to redo read the magazine

  and I i will but I've been traveling so

  I been you know too busy to actually get

  in front of my devices but I will as

  soon as i get home very much looking

  forward to it I i love the am I like the

  model where he has like 30 days or

  something exclusive rights and then then

  the person can republish it but i think

  what that does is it

  it encourages the writers write

  something timeless rather than just you

  know that news that the news of the day

  you know their rights something that

  will last a while and right that's good

  call it the magazine the idea for it

  fits or fill so many needs that have

  been left as everybody has moved towards

  blogging and tweeting and doing these

  things that when you hit the publish

  button the people who is intended for

  can start reading it

  seconds later and you know there's

  obviously and it that publishing model

  obviously and even in my case definitely

  leads me to writing things that are more

  about the here and now or this week or

  anything that just came out the two days

  ago or the thing that now we all know

  have heard is coming out on october 23rd

  on as opposed to thinking about things

  that just the audience at home knows I'm

  John's holding an ipad mini as we speak

  that's where I've got my show notes and

  it does i mean and these and i would

  have I would say 44 in the first four

  articles in the issue one of the

  magazine all for them if Marco had like

  taking one of them and put it in his

  pocket editorial pocket and published it

  in issue 26 a year from now it would

  still worst anniversary issue it would

  be just as timeless and would fit just

  as well I bet he does have articles in

  his party probably tell you should

  probably so yeah so anyway everybody out

  there if you haven't already check out

  the magazine I you can go to the app

  store and search for the magazine and

  you won't find it

  ok but maybe by the time to show airs

  you will it is a weird problem with

  naming it and that i will add this is

  that before he launched Marco ran the

  idea by me and I I I poo-pooed the title

  the magazine as being too generic in a

  chat mr. talk shows and that's exactly

  and then as soon as I hit return i

  realized i had to immediately type this

  coming from the guy whose podcast is

  called the talk show and I was like so

  and then i read like next line was like

  so now what we're going to call you the

  John now i was like i went from I think

  it's too generic and i wrote this coming

  from the guys podcast is the talk show

  and I wrote so great title haha and i

  believe the what what's the URL i don't

  have it handy i should have

  are you sure


  so Marco says the the URL is the dash

  magazine dot org and go there I door is

  a non-profit alright

  you know people used to tell me with

  daring fireball net because it used to

  be i think that the original I can

  definition of dotnet was you had to be

  like a sort of like a service provider

  or yeah I think yeah and dogs had to be

  nonprofits and i still wanna dot edu for

  instance not even you

  it's a high school mixology yeah I was

  gonna say I'm I definitely frightened

  don't know what you learned at brents

  Evans done it you i also want printed

  and start gov as I'm sure that brendan

  is dead you all the ads are from lawyers

  bail bondsman i did another podcast i

  talked about going to jail i did hear

  that if you've read that one was pretty


  that's David Lex unprofessional and this

  is their little plug

  yeah go ahead and i'm done that was a

  short plug I so one of the things that I

  find interesting and I feel like

  everybody has to deal with it let's say

  I would just say this is what has been a

  lot of talk this because it's new and

  everybody isn't really sure whether it's

  gonna take off its like it just seems

  like this is AB dotnet what was it

  what's your take on I don't know

  if it's going to live

  I like it a lot because i like the

  service and i really wanted Twitter to

  be the thing that I loved because it was

  the thing I love for a long time but I

  just don't love the company and it

  seemed that when netbotz came out alpha

  dynamic what the hell is this thing

  called that's charlie suddenly there's a

  lot of people actually using it and I'm

  like I'm not checking twitter anymore

  i'm using the ADN or whatever the hell

  it's called here there is a dad this is

  like where I fail as a talk show host

  but there's like three things about that I i want to talk about and

  none of them really seemed to lead to

  each other and you just touch on all

  three of them so let me just say them

  and you guys can remind me when we go

  off on a tangent one of them to go back

  but one of them is a terrible name but

  it's not even a name that's like one of

  them is that if twitter

  had behaved and what seems to be the

  most obvious way in the way that they

  should they're never be any room for it

  to happen we'd never be talking about it

  right and the third one is that it's

  like it's been a great little science

  experiment since net but came out about

  the importance of apps

  yeah girl isn't web clients yeah so

  those are the three things let's talk

  about the name first which is terrible

  nobody even knows what to call it like

  yeah some people call some

  people call it

  Etienne which comes from like

  I've never even seen that before where

  the dot and something's name becomes

  part of its initials I've never seen

  that people are grasping at straws that

  hit anything to give it an identity

  right and then their reference

  implementation of a client for the

  service they called alpha and so it's

  like the URL is alpha dot and

  then there was some confusion maybe the

  thing is called alpha and nobody really

  right they can't go into beta now

  however because alpha is the name I and

  I forget I was just talking about it i

  think the first night that I was here in

  Montreal we and and just how it's almost

  impossibly generic the name

  right because everything if you're

  writing software is a nap and when is

  the last time any of us has had a new

  app that hasn't in some way use the net

  right like I'm trying to think like even

  games games are still connecting with

  game center and sending saved stuff like

  it really is almost impossibly generic

  yeah yeah and you could look at it in

  one way I all the personality for

  whatever it's called is going to come to

  the clients when I think of whatever

  this is called I picture the net bot

  icon right that's saying that as you

  know it famously happened with Twitter

  in the early days while when is crack

  here still

  yeah and for Twitter X and up we can't

  see you again

  all right areas if it had been for

  twitterrific I would never I mean I saw

  terrific price on Twitter and I'm like I

  like this app will have to do you have

  been famously well maybe not famously

  actually much to the injustice of it but

  Twitter itself didn't use any kind of

  bird iconography at all not the

  silhouette or anything they were using a

  lowercase T bubble font thing as their

  logo and twitterrific shipped with

  what's the bird's name Ali the bird and

  it was such a spectacularly perfect icon

  for the twitter experience that all of a

  sudden it became one of the most like

  ripped off things right in in the

  universe like everybody all across the

  web when they would link to their

  twitter account would put the

  twitterrific icon there as a

  representation of Twitter mm I don't

  know how that escaped the Twitter people

  they named their service up to the sound

  of bird makes and didn't use a bird

  I don't know it's one of those great you

  know I like like so many great ideas

  it's so obvious in hindsight but you

  know it's it's like I've forgotten fact

  that it was the icon factory that

  polygon in the word tweet i guess was an

  icon factory thing and and like 10 or 20

  other things we all have to thank Craig

  and his people for him and and because

  of all the royalties that icon factories

  getting from Twitter that's why Craig

  will be the one who issues the refunds

  for everybody's thanks Craig singleton

  which one

  Craig says the medium on his private jet

  alright so the name stinks and I think

  names matter i think names matter

  yeah i was on the other hand I could

  their attitude seems be hey we're gonna

  make a generic service and developers

  are the ones who are going to add

  personality to it i don't know if that

  will work but as a developer i kind of

  don't mind their humility there right

  I do I i do but i do think that it also

  speaks to one of its it as it seeps into


  background of your consciousness what a

  tremendous advantage twitter has that

  they own this word tweet which acts as

  both a noun and a verb and it's a thing

  so with these things that you send to

  Twitter our tweets and when you do them

  you're tweeting and that's really really

  powerful psychological advantage you

  know right and very much along the lines

  that you know doing a web search is

  called googling right chair

  yeah I never Google something that thing

  yeah i do it you know i think that i

  would i would easily find myself saying

  that I did yeah they're out of course it

  so i'm saying though is that dragon his

  team needs to step up and come up in

  invent a personality in names and stuff

  44 alpha tonight right

  so second thing is that just the Indians

  more mouth maybe not more important

  because i do think names are important

  but the the honestly indignation that I

  feel towards the way twitter is is

  acting towards third party developers

  and their api's and it's ink brought to

  light by this thing and as these clients start appearing where

  it's explicit not even implicit it's not

  like you have to kind of like swinton

  think about it it's like absolutely

  clear as day one of the few things it's

  as clear as day in the twitter api

  guidelines is if you're using the

  twitter api you cannot enter mix the

  tweets that you're getting or any of the

  data you're getting from twitter with

  the content from anything that even any

  other service

  yeah and that to me is such bullshit it

  is exactly like an email provider like

  imagine an email provider that said you

  cannot put any email from us into a

  unified inbox

  yeah imagine google saying that about

  retail clients of something yet that it

  just makes no sense because it's just

  totally and again and you know and and

  people often call me out on this because

  you know I i will write pieces that were

  i'm not i really don't see myself as

  defending apple's app store i'm trying

  to explain what they're thinking and I'm

  so I do understand I'm not

  I'm not saying Twitter can't do this you

  know or even that they're morally wrong

  for doing i just think that they're

  being foolish because I think being that

  what's the word showering and arrogant

  sure it will say they've lost the love

  of this room and and many rooms like it

  exactly it is you know it's easy to say

  that that hardcore geeks don't matter

  much but what we do because we tell our

  parents and siblings and family

  what software to use and and you know we

  have an outsized amount of power and

  when you lose the geeks you lose a lot I


  well they've turned our backs on a lot

  of people who truly had and even have

  remaining in to some extent but its

  dwindling affection for twitter right

  right like a really liked them and

  they've just turned their backs on that

  and it just seems like that is something

  that they seem to be acting as though

  it's irrelevant now whereas I don't

  think that's the case at all

  I i think that they should be to the top

  levels absolutely positively like hey we

  need to actually have like one of these

  like change courses right now thing

  because of just even the extent that got off the ground whether it

  stays up like i said it's will see it

  seems iffy but the fact that there was

  any enthusiasm at all for it really

  should have I think if i were there i

  would be like this is this is awful

  we've you know this is existence proof

  that we have screwed this up

  mm yep and into me just you know it just

  seems so ridiculous like why wouldn't

  you let them integrate tweets into some

  other thing if that's what they want to


  sure you know let a thousand flowers

  bloom right let all know let people

  write all kinds of software it's just

  going to make your your service all the

  more valuable and beloved right and

  they're like no I and you know and it

  off tonight I think it easily comes back

  to you know a lot of the stuff you've

  done like RSS and now the difference is

  twitter is in a unique position where

  they can do this because they are become

  so popular they are big that they can do

  it and they can make you know developers

  write separate apps for appt dotnet

  then Twitter even though it would make a

  lot more sense if they would just

  integrated into the same app right I but

  it reminds me of publishers who like

  wouldn't want to publish RSS feeds or

  wouldn't want to publish full data RSS

  feeds and of course there's are good

  reasons there are reasons you think like

  we'll all of our ads are coming this

  other way we don't have ads in the RSS

  we don't know what to do but when you

  like try to take your stuff and keep it

  in your own little box it's good stuff

  never happens because the users people

  that I say users but just people want

  this stuff to just let me put it where I

  want right right exactly

  yeah and trying to control stuff in that

  way is some swimming against the time

  that's rarely works out I and I you know

  the netnews wiser net new newswires a

  perfect example where my life a year

  before to a year after the existence of

  netnewswire was that i was suddenly

  reading all sorts of stuff not on the

  website where it was written which may

  be you know in some ways was a loss for

  those websites if I previously read them

  but reading so much more in the

  aggregate including a lot of sources

  where I wouldn't be reading them

  regularly at all and at least I'm

  reading right and so I can't help but

  think that it was a win for so many

  websites not that me in particular was

  reading it but that every you know

  everybody using that newswire was really

  poor reading a lot more then than they

  could have before yeah right

  I and you know and then it comes down to

  you know there's nothing just too many

  people but you know people who accuses

  app like Instapaper of somehow was

  surfing or Flipboard or something like

  that of stepping on the toes are pointed

  out it's really know it's there just

  giving people other options for

  consuming your content and shouldn't you

  just be thrilled that people want to

  consume want to read your stuff

  yeah absolutely hopefully that's your

  call and if not choose another business

  i think and and I just think Twitter is

  totally lost it so what was my third

  thing my third thing was oh I don't know

  but i have a dip to Costello Castello's

  story actually gotten that is good and

  I think I I haven't thought about this

  in years but it was at acosta Costolo

  CEO and your twitter chief executive

  officer and chief dick officer of bread

  right so it's easy to not like him

  because he's in charge of this whole

  thing and it seems awful but the first

  time I met him was years ago and it was

  evening at adler or the first c4 perhaps

  and times in chicago and I'd just

  started working in newsgator and

  feedburner was in Chicago and dick was

  at feedburner and both those companies

  were funded by Brad Feld and I don't

  know mobius whatever he was doing at the

  time so you know Brad encouraged me to

  go to the paper printer offices and meet

  dick and everybody and so I go into

  their office and it's a big open space

  and I I walk in there and I can't

  remember his dick or somebody else um

  introduces me to the entire company all

  at once and this is C probably 2,000 for

  something like that news when I was just

  starting to become a really big hit and

  of course the guys at feedburner had

  stats on the head knew exactly how big

  it was and the entire office applauded

  me and I was just really really fucking

  cool i just like for being the guy who

  wrote the software you know that added

  loved that and then we went out to lunch

  and dick was charming and funny i think

  is a theater background and I had a

  great time and it was it's only years

  later I'm like I want to kick it down

  it's just it's it's so easy you have

  right to go with the joke about his name

  but really you can't help it right yeah

  I had a torch here church dick

  areas if I had an uncle dick my father's

  my father's brother was was Richard

  grouper and and everybody calling dick

  but he was a little bit older even than

  my dad and he died a couple years ago

  but he was up that generation now he was

  like you know dick cheney and and those

  guys Sammy was you know that grandpa


  yeah Davis him i was a good name back

  then but yeah totally

  yeah yeah ma a white mug with black

  lettering big bull letters dick cheney

  drank his coffee out of that every

  morning and I'm like that's a hell of a

  good way to start at center for some

  reason the name seems to have fallen out

  of favor in recent decades though let's

  bring it back alright name your kids

  dick even the girls all right so last

  thing on apt and we can probably wrap up

  the show with it but I didn't think that

  it was really an interesting experiment

  and I certainly have the belief that

  native clients native for the mac native

  for iOS are the way to go for so many to

  it if at all possible that's the way to

  go and it just makes everything better

  latency is better interface is better

  you can you're less restricted about

  where things go you can make things look

  just right and as hard as it may be and

  you can go back to you know Brad's talk

  about how hard it is to get things

  looking exactly right when you're truly

  a perfectionist

  it certainly is a lot how hard it can be

  how much work way easier with a native

  app then with with the web a great

  example i think was tweeted or outfit or

  something by I think Matt trance you put

  up a screenshot of that wet wet platform

  dot org or something

  have you seen this downside well it's

  talking about the web as a platform and

  of course if you open it on your iphone

  it it is completely fucked up that like

  that like yep and that pretty much just

  nails it you know and and it i also ties

  in again to Marco's talk from yesterday

  and Marco at one point he was talking

  about a conference that he had spoken

  and he didn't mention because I i I'd it

  was ended up being a rather unpleasant

  experience but as he described it

  it was a a conference for web developers

  and web designers and Marco you know who

  he did work at tumblr on but you know is

  certainly far more well known for his

  work on clients like guys to paper on

  and and more or less the message he gave

  was you guys shouldn't be thinking so

  much about the web you should be

  thinking about what's the best

  experience for users and a lot of cases

  it's going to be a nap a native app and

  I maybe even only a native app and he

  held up Instagram as an example here I

  am getting my instant papers and

  instagrams exactly right

  so far i have made a mistake I and I

  think that pixma tourism to sponsor to

  yeah I want to hear that in person we

  know i would say with a French accent

  come back pics of mixing mentor and make

  sure this will be stopped

  yeah but I thought that and I I thought

  Marco didn't extrapolate that though to

  the right degree of Marco is you know is

  usually he's a nice guy but he is not

  artificially humble is that he kind of

  took away from that I gave these guys

  this message and he got beat the ends up

  long story short heat that this

  conference gives all the attendees get

  to rank the speakers and Marco came out

  ranked very very poorly or dead last or

  something like that

  not because what he said wasn't true and

  said he was exactly true and Instagram

  was a remarkably app thing because they

  sold for a billion fucking dollars

  yeah i mean are now it's like and then

  they were hundred million building

  facing users to yeah but yeah but then

  they have they still have more and more

  users and it is by all accounts the most

  successful social networking thing to

  have launched in the last couple of

  years on so it was a great example he

  was exactly that that's the thing is he

  should draw satisfaction from the fact

  that he was dead right

  the reason he got ranked poorly by the

  speaker's wasn't cuz what he said wasn't

  good advice and it wasn't true is

  because it wasn't what they wanted to

  hear exactly what is it that this crowd

  doesn't want to hear that we can tell

  them there has to be something

  bars closed bars plus

  I can't think of anything yeah I don't

  have been something i think but i think

  that's one of the great things about

  this conference though is that people

  who have come here at our thinking ahead

  but and and to Marco's point about maybe

  you should think about a nap i thought

  the interesting thing about is

  it seemed to me like uses was going down

  and down and down and then met bought

  shipped and there was this huge spike

  yeah that that day was like the change

  and I i'm sure they will always remember

  that day right when that Bob Knepper

  comes out and suddenly it would validate

  validate everything and there were you

  know a lot of new users and a lot of

  activity in yeah i think that the idea I

  i think there was only when it was

  almost taken his religion is that once

  we got to the point where you could

  write web apps and web apps would run

  everywhere that was like some sort of

  endpoint in the continuum of how

  software evolved and that they're not

  everybody certainly not everybody but

  there were a large number of people who

  I think sort of took it and still take

  it and i think that they and now they

  give marco check minuses on his talks a

  little that they've broken this dogma

  that web apps are the future and I think

  people are still dug in on that and that

  there was you see a lot of people and

  they look at the app store and success

  and they say well that's just temporary

  soon you know web apps will take over

  that and i don't i don't think that's

  true yeah I I don't buy it because of

  some sort of arms is exactly but it's

  kinda like that what we as client

  developers are going to be able to do is

  always going to outstrip what the web

  can do now so people who love web

  development will say hey we're getting

  this and this and be like hey great

  awesome that's you're going to really

  enjoy that but meanwhile we're gonna be

  you know another mile ahead because it's

  not like the platform stops and waits

  for quality it totally doesn't one of my

  all-time favorite brand

  Simmons isms I i don't know how many

  years ago was it could be a long time


  yeah i'll never forget it but you were

  writing about why Randy was clearly

  predates the iphone

  it was why write software for the mac

  and maybe it was in response to joel's

  polski thing talking about just how much

  bigger the windows market / was I and

  your piece was that it went beyond

  economics in a you know it wasn't about

  the size of the audience

  it was that writing mac apps was the

  show Yeah Yeah with a capital S yeah


  it's the only big league there is or at

  the time of course now we have iOS but


  the idea was if you're if you're making

  software you care about user experience

  first and and everything you do comes

  from that that premise right

  your choice of platform your choice of

  technologies all choices start with user

  experience and wanting to do the very

  best and i'm an ambitious and wanted to

  play in that you know it in the best

  playground that there was and because

  everything else sucks and you know it to

  throw another I keep it you know because

  the show is a reference to like that's

  bad like a baseball term for making it

  to them to the big leagues right major

  leagues where baseball professional

  baseball United States has these

  hierarchies of you know they're all

  professional but you go from a to

  double-a to triple-a and I don't even

  know i might not even be thousands of

  players active at any given time as it

  was fill all these teams and all sorts

  of local team you know all really small

  towns have a professional baseball team

  but it's you know amateurs or not

  amateurs but guys making like a thousand

  dollars a month

  yeah right sleeping on buses and

  something that and then you make it to

  the show yeah that's the real deal and

  all of a sudden the bright lights are on

  and the big money's there and you're not

  playing in front of 700 people you're

  playing in front of 35,000 people

  yep yeah and you're on television and

  you have groupies and and you make a

  mistake and it's on the front page of

  the sports section the next day

  that's right and if you do something

  good it's on the front page escort

  section the next day

  yeah so their scrutiny yeah absolutely

  yeah but it's really i think it comes

  down to you you've got to be obsessed em

  right like so why play baseball instead

  of basketball for those guys to play

  baseball because that's the sport there

  you know a lot of guys who are athletic

  could do anything but it is a sport that

  activates the mind and you can't get you

  can't get unhooked from it and I think

  that's what great user experiences for a

  developer like you

  yeah I have nothing to add to that that

  will bring thank you for being here

  thank you to the hosts at singleton

  absolutely thank you so much even even

  with the bad badges it was remarkable

  and extraordinarily generous to offer

  the states to me to do the show here

  today and absolutely most of all thank

  you to all of you who who stayed here to

  watch this it's always a thrill to do a

  show live and just a great throw

  thanks John Thank You Brent