The Talk Show

◼   ► so screw the space guy will start to

◼   ► talk show

◼   ► alright alright since since we're

◼   ► montreal I thought and and Brent i'm

◼   ► here with brent Simmons who he wanted me

◼   ► to introduce wanted to be cable sound

◼   ► very capable sasser papers so much

◼   ► funnier than I am right and every single

◼   ► live thing I've ever done with an

◼   ► interview thing has always been with

◼   ► cable sasser because he's brilliant

◼   ► right it's like a cheesy move

◼   ► yeah because then me was like sort of

◼   ► miserable and not really that good

◼   ► person

◼   ► the effusive Mr Cable sasser just rubs

◼   ► off and anybody anybody would look

◼   ► friendly and and professional onstage so

◼   ► there's a lot of pressure on your brain

◼   ► yeah okay well do what I can the truth

◼   ► is I was a up a bit late last night

◼   ► entirely the fault of John's wife who

◼   ► wouldn't let me sleep anyway

◼   ► got anything with that cake you've

◼   ► already gone such a different direction

◼   ► than cable goes no I thought here's the

◼   ► thing one thing maybe people don't know

◼   ► you spent a year two years living in

◼   ► France

◼   ► yeah yeah many years ago right here but

◼   ► I thought since we're here we're here

◼   ► today as we record it is sunday october

◼   ► fourteenth we're in montreal quebec and

◼   ► at the tail end after like the

◼   ► after-party of the singleton the second

◼   ► singleton symposium I thought it'd be

◼   ► nice if we did the whole show conducted

◼   ► the whole show in French a deco so how

◼   ► did he say welcome

◼   ► Bienvenue Bienvenue à l'heure talk show

◼   ► I think it looks showed the talk is your

◼   ► pal john grew Berra simple cable Sarah

◼   ► married

◼   ► no fuck you nah I'm out of friends just

◼   ► that it's all I got

◼   ► alright so before I have a couple things

◼   ► I want to talk about and and over here

◼   ► there's I don't know hundred people here

◼   ► honored it seems like everybody state

◼   ► which is great thank you for saying I

◼   ► obviously we can't just recap the whole

◼   ► conference you really had to be here you

◼   ► should have been your shame on everybody

◼   ► who wasn't here you're looking right at

◼   ► me what you're all but it was really

◼   ► really good but i do think there are a

◼   ► couple of things that I picked up from

◼   ► the talks over the weekend that you

◼   ► didn't have to be here and we can we can

◼   ► use them to start the show from so the

◼   ► official theme of the conference was

◼   ► quote-unquote scale and then you know I

◼   ► think it kind of it but I think what I

◼   ► saw from seeing all of the things to me

◼   ► it was more about change

◼   ► yeah starting with Jason smells keynote

◼   ► the opening night which really talked

◼   ► about changing the technology industry

◼   ► change in the publishing industry and

◼   ► how in his role at macworld at igg it's

◼   ► sort of like the nexus of both it's all

◼   ► about the change in technology over the

◼   ► last 15 years and the change in the

◼   ► publishing industry and and I think it

◼   ► carried on from there I think juries my

◼   ► career which is talk the next morning

◼   ► was really about change in being an

◼   ► apple developer which is get out

◼   ► I mean everybody here knows I mean it's

◼   ► not the list all the ways that life has

◼   ► changed for iOS developers well there

◼   ► was no such thing as iOS developers

◼   ► right or i should say objective-c

◼   ► developing out right there yeah you know

◼   ► your life has changed you know my career

◼   ► started in my professional software

◼   ► Chris are around 95 96 and I wanted to

◼   ► be a Mac Developer at the very worst

◼   ► possible time to be a Mac Developer and

◼   ► things have certainly changed for the

◼   ► better since then

◼   ► well and I think you're a good example

◼   ► to of somebody who sort of followed the

◼   ► advice and marcos thing about your

◼   ► career

◼   ► damn rancis thing were Michael ops thing

◼   ► was everybody here should be thinking

◼   ► that they're going to do something

◼   ► different in three years every three

◼   ► years ago your you tend to be doing

◼   ► something different

◼   ► yeah with the exception of working for

◼   ► nine years on that newswire right but

◼   ► there were three different versions

◼   ► maybe but it did it changed a lot over

◼   ► those years and you never it became a

◼   ► big hit and it was really all on your

◼   ► mac and then there was a huge change

◼   ► where it went to sinking somehow right

◼   ► right i spent a lot of time working on

◼   ► sinking before there was really any good

◼   ► sinking solutions out there course that

◼   ► we have icloud which is perfect but

◼   ► problem-solving yeah yeah no doubt

◼   ► sinking remains just one of the most

◼   ► difficult and ballbusting things to work

◼   ► on I hate it with a passion and I don't

◼   ► do it anymore

◼   ► ah another thing I thought was and in

◼   ► marco marco called his talk scaling your

◼   ► career but I really thought it would

◼   ► have fit better if titled changing your

◼   ► career in adapting your career right and

◼   ► the other underlying message I thought

◼   ► in session after session all weekend

◼   ► long

◼   ► is that a lot of this change is not

◼   ► really your choice

◼   ► it's not you two making do you often

◼   ► have a lot of choices in life but a lot

◼   ► of it is you've got to get with the

◼   ► program because the train is leaving the

◼   ► station and if you're not on it you're

◼   ► like you're gonna get left behind but

◼   ► some it makes me think of swimming in

◼   ► the ocean so much different than

◼   ► swimming in a pool right in a pool you

◼   ► can do what you want do laps whatever in

◼   ► the ocean you have to you've got waves

◼   ► to deal with and they're going to come

◼   ► whether you're looking or not and

◼   ► whether you're ready or not

◼   ► yeah that makes me think that as soon as

◼   ► you said that I thought you were going

◼   ► to divide i was going to say there's

◼   ► that phrase rising tide lifts all boats

◼   ► rightly ads so that's good and had to

◼   ► have the people write it also the rising

◼   ► tide often like watches you doubt the

◼   ► undertow and you found yet

◼   ► indeed that you've got to be careful

◼   ► where the answer England so you've

◼   ► switched and now you're your thing right

◼   ► now your big thing you're working on is

◼   ► gone

◼   ► sport right so how many people here have

◼   ► been using glass board this weekend

◼   ► try some it's going really really all I

◼   ► mean that was for those of you listening

◼   ► at home i would say that was everybody's

◼   ► hand and there's still one guy with his

◼   ► hand up

◼   ► he really likes class point ah in a

◼   ► sense I honestly I mean this in a

◼   ► sincere way like I know there's the this

◼   ► you can't get up here and talk without

◼   ► mentioning steve jobs at least once

◼   ► baked and he had that phrase you didn't

◼   ► want to make a dent in the universe

◼   ► right right so glass board has made at

◼   ► least to some extent a little dent in

◼   ► the conference going experience for

◼   ► everybody like at least in text circle

◼   ► while Sherri that keeps your Twitter

◼   ► feeds or ATM feeds a bit more clear

◼   ► since we can move all this stuff

◼   ► glassport which anyway but the most

◼   ► rewarding thing to me is seeing my peers

◼   ► and friends whose my software I've had

◼   ► that experience before with news wiring

◼   ► and Mars at it and having it again with

◼   ► glass bored you know just seeing it on

◼   ► people's phones is like that's just

◼   ► fucking awesome

◼   ► I i totally love it I don't even care

◼   ► about money at this point just that my

◼   ► friends are using my stuff I feel good

◼   ► but you still need to pay the bills so

◼   ► you've got the thing I don't need to be

◼   ► someone else has to be the glass so

◼   ► glassport started as a totally free and

◼   ► including the backend like and that's

◼   ► got to be a significant part of it yeah

◼   ► we've got a real messaging so the cost

◼   ► of that stuff have have come down a ton

◼   ► over the years I mean we're using a

◼   ► major and which is like you know one of

◼   ► these many scalable virtual things that

◼   ► better understand because I right client

◼   ► apps but it's a lot less expensive than

◼   ► it used to be two to do these backend

◼   ► services but recently you guys have

◼   ► added and you call it a pro tier i

◼   ► forget what you call a premium premium

◼   ► right uh how is that is it taken off we

◼   ► have a few customers

◼   ► yeah I i signed and by you I mean yeah I

◼   ► think it's like three

◼   ► how hard was it to you

◼   ► our part was to draw the line at where

◼   ► you switch from the free service which

◼   ► you really do want to be useful to

◼   ► everybody right because if it was all

◼   ► paid or if it was really limited there's

◼   ► no way all those hands would have gone

◼   ► up right of course I think it I think we

◼   ► took the slightly lazy way and we said

◼   ► whatever we haven't done yet

◼   ► that's for pay and whatever it is now is

◼   ► the free so pretty interesting way to do

◼   ► it so going forward most new features

◼   ► are going to be yeah yeah right not all

◼   ► the most you know and I have to admit

◼   ► you know somebody works alone its it

◼   ► unsurprising that i tend to use it like

◼   ► I put a couple screens back and then I

◼   ► come to a conference and boom drag it to

◼   ► the front screen writing to me it's it's

◼   ► like conference board like that's when i

◼   ► use glass board but you guys designed it

◼   ► also specifically with yourselves in

◼   ► mind like a eating your own dog food way

◼   ► that yep this is the way your team is

◼   ► going to communicate with each other

◼   ► yeah that'll work told ya it its are you

◼   ► know we don't use email we don't use no

◼   ► IRS here whenever we just use glass

◼   ► bored all day long and it works great as

◼   ► you know way of working together it's

◼   ► fantastic and that was the plan i mean

◼   ► we didn't set out to make a conference

◼   ► where we set out to make you know work

◼   ► group thing and yeah it's fucking great

◼   ► when you're when you're a working

◼   ► typical workday are you using the web

◼   ► interface too because there's no mac

◼   ► client for it yet

◼   ► yeah that's right its iOS and web

◼   ► well I'm i used the web mainly during

◼   ► the day because the because the iOS

◼   ► client i'm actually working on at the

◼   ► moment and it may not actually build and

◼   ► run you know so yeah I tend to use the

◼   ► web alot

◼   ► yeah ah I and I asked that because it

◼   ► made maybe it should have been obvious

◼   ► because it

◼   ► well of course you're going to use the

◼   ► web because you want to use your big

◼   ► keyboard and if there's no backlight

◼   ► you're going to use the web but the

◼   ► reason i ask is because i often find

◼   ► myself it during the day while I'm

◼   ► working

◼   ► if I'm going to check twitter or use

◼   ► twitter i will use my phone instead of

◼   ► something on my mac a lot of the time

◼   ► because then i'll keep it not running on

◼   ► my mac to not be distracted but it off

◼   ► it actually is like a useful way it

◼   ► almost feels like using my iphone as a

◼   ► second screen and I just keep twitter

◼   ► there

◼   ► yeah and it kind of keeps me from using

◼   ► it more than I would if it was on my mac

◼   ► right sure

◼   ► yeah it's a your phone is great for

◼   ► bathroom breaks and so on right it's

◼   ► perfect now i actually use it at the

◼   ► desk though I myself using my phone at

◼   ► my desk for specifically for Twitter

◼   ► like if I just gonna take a little break

◼   ► from the whatever i'm writing or working

◼   ► or reading i'll check twitter see ya as

◼   ► a as an iOS developer my phone is

◼   ► useless because it's running my software

◼   ► in in debug mode so yeah I want to go

◼   ► back to some of the stuff that jury had

◼   ► talked about yesterday and is for those

◼   ► of you don't know my drawer which used

◼   ► to work at apple recently left to go to

◼   ► black pixel worked in developer

◼   ► relations and you know so from a very

◼   ► recent vantage point was giving

◼   ► everybody at the conference a sort of

◼   ► here's some dope from a guy who is

◼   ► inside Apple really at the intersection

◼   ► of where third-party developers interact

◼   ► with apple and giving them some honest

◼   ► advice as to how did how to deal with

◼   ► apple and a lot of it goes back to what

◼   ► I said about change being outside your

◼   ► control right so like sandbox and mac

◼   ► apps is a perfect example of that where

◼   ► developers have all sorts of problems

◼   ► with it it it didn't roll out as

◼   ► smoothly technically as it could have

◼   ► and it's a really hard transition you

◼   ► know it's definitely I think one of the

◼   ► biggest problems with it is that the mac

◼   ► has not had sandboxing for 20-some years

◼   ► right and now it does and that's a lot

◼   ► harder than iOS which debuted with this

◼   ► sandboxing mindset

◼   ► yeah we never even thought of it as

◼   ► sandboxing really it's just how it

◼   ► worked

◼   ► yea-ah injuries advice was about anybody

◼   ► to say i wrote this down and get over it

◼   ► i think i think that's what he said mike

◼   ► is that what you said and that's sort of

◼   ► a brash way of saying it but i do think

◼   ► you know he's kind of requisite you can

◼   ► sit there and complain

◼   ► about it and not get anything done or

◼   ► you can deal with it and move forward

◼   ► and I've always thought over the years

◼   ► like when you blog about development and

◼   ► how you approach stuff I you never get

◼   ► upset you didn't it maybe you do

◼   ► privately but like you always seem

◼   ► unruffled and even when you get a raw

◼   ► deal

◼   ► it's like you just don't seem to be used

◼   ► like well that's what I got a deal

◼   ► yeah right well there's you know that

◼   ► there's no fighting City Hall i guess

◼   ► the old phrase right and right so like

◼   ► if you you know there are things you

◼   ► just you can't change i'm not going to

◼   ► make I'm not personally gonna get Apple

◼   ► to stop sandboxing I mean so so like

◼   ► years ago when you were still developing

◼   ► that news where I would say one of your

◼   ► city halls that you had to fight was

◼   ► Google Reader which you used you can eat

◼   ► you guys use that newsgator as a sinking

◼   ► back end right yeah i mean just can you

◼   ► just talk some of the problems you dealt

◼   ► with that

◼   ► well yeah man google reader is

◼   ► fantastically popular RSS aggregator and

◼   ► we used it as are sinking back end and

◼   ► it has an undocumented and unsupported

◼   ► API and I had sworn to myself earlier in

◼   ► life I don't ever use undocumented

◼   ► unsupported api's and yet there i was

◼   ► suddenly doing it and I had little

◼   ► choice google reader was the thing that

◼   ► everybody used and it was it's it was a

◼   ► must-do feature and I lost a lot of hair

◼   ► and a lot of sleep and trying to get

◼   ► that to work and and i don't think i

◼   ► ever got a working all that well before

◼   ► I ended up selling it to the black pixel

◼   ► folks and now it's their headache and

◼   ► set up behind but but you know it was it

◼   ► was a thing I you know but you never do

◼   ► it you never publicly really you you

◼   ► would explain if there were deficiencies

◼   ► or you know you would explain as best

◼   ► she could be you never seem to get upset

◼   ► and you just like this is my hand to

◼   ► play right gotta move forward on exactly

◼   ► because life's too short to spend it

◼   ► bitching you gotta get work done and

◼   ► ship software so right and i think one

◼   ► of the things people you know that

◼   ► developers I think because they're so

◼   ► by definition rationally minded have a

◼   ► keen sense of justice and of course

◼   ► everybody self interested in everybody

◼   ► you know if it's close call wants things

◼   ► to go their way but I think what

◼   ► developers or third-party developers see

◼   ► and complain about with the mac app

◼   ► store and sandboxing is that Apple is

◼   ► kinda cheating them with their own apps

◼   ► but they totally are but but we always

◼   ► knew they would write I mean right

◼   ► because it's their store exactly right

◼   ► it can do whatever they want to do and

◼   ► so you know I I I don't even I hope this

◼   ► isn't getting Paul into trouble but I

◼   ► know Papa faucet told me that I think

◼   ► vision rogue amoebas audio editor had

◼   ► problems with sandboxing restrictions

◼   ► for something something that happens to

◼   ► be the exact same thing that garage band

◼   ► does tech right of any yeah and I don't

◼   ► know if garageband sandbox yet but the

◼   ► fact that it's if it isn't even sandbox

◼   ► get that just speaks more to the rules

◼   ► you know for third-party developers are

◼   ► not the same rules that Apple place but

◼   ► yeah and but we never expected that they

◼   ► would and anybody who did expect that

◼   ► apple would play by those rules is must

◼   ► be new here

◼   ► ah one of the other things that the jury

◼   ► had talked about and I think it comes up

◼   ► a lot in a developer conference is the

◼   ► concept of technical debt and it

◼   ► manifests itself in many ways I and I

◼   ► think marcos talk about your career kind

◼   ► of touched on this certainly Michael ops

◼   ► thing I did to wear if you're too

◼   ► attached to what you've done to the way

◼   ► things were to what you were good at you

◼   ► can really get into trouble because the

◼   ► world around you

◼   ► moves forward right right and one of the

◼   ► things you it's like a repeating things

◼   ► like it always comes up is that you

◼   ► Brent Simmons love to delete code hat

◼   ► that's what gets me up in the morning I

◼   ► i love deleting code almost more than

◼   ► anything else you know I i I've written

◼   ► some wonderful clever great things that

◼   ► that then the OS add support for and I

◼   ► can just delete those which she said the

◼   ► thing about the table cells

◼   ► yes

◼   ► so in the last person that needs work

◼   ► for mac i did i did you know a

◼   ► uitableview like thing on the Mac you

◼   ► know so it was a you know a table that

◼   ► use vuze instead of cells and it had the

◼   ► same dq'ing mechanism and all that kind

◼   ► of stuff and it was really fast i tested

◼   ► it tested with a million rows and did

◼   ► everything and it was it is magical I

◼   ► loved it was some of the coolest UI code

◼   ► I ever wrote and then they added support

◼   ► for that in the OS and I could go gon

◼   ► get rid of it

◼   ► delete the whole thing and I think your

◼   ► natural instincts always lead you to

◼   ► your ear

◼   ► I think you're a little off the charts

◼   ► in that direction where you don't need

◼   ► it's not that you have like this regret

◼   ► like oh and I'd that was beautiful code

◼   ► now i have to maybe I should delete it

◼   ► you're like happy to do i acttally i get

◼   ► a thrill out of deleting my best code

◼   ► yeah I think I would if I were writing

◼   ► code for living I would probably be more

◼   ► likely to be at the other end and be too

◼   ► attached to the thing i did like I do

◼   ► and I if I have a weakness as a one-man

◼   ► show writing operation is that I i

◼   ► probably should delete more of what I've

◼   ► written sometimes if it interrupts the

◼   ► confeds it's a good passage and I feel

◼   ► like there's something good about it but

◼   ► it might make the whole piece better if

◼   ► I just took it out I'm less likely to

◼   ► kill that I probably should be here than

◼   ► I would be if I had in a separate editor

◼   ► or something like that

◼   ► well you know that there's old writing

◼   ► advice is it kill your darlings yeah

◼   ► something like that murder your

◼   ► daughter's murder your darlings or you

◼   ► know when I was very young my journalism

◼   ► teacher said Brent find the best sense

◼   ► in that and and delete that and then

◼   ► chip what chip the rest of it right you

◼   ► know because um and and she was fighting

◼   ► against the tendency to you don't get

◼   ► too attached to some you know clever bit

◼   ► of wordplay or something you know it and

◼   ► it then stop is stronger when you get

◼   ► rid of that right and I've one thing I

◼   ► do find myself doing often is deleting

◼   ► the first sentence of a piece which I am

◼   ► attached to em I because it's something

◼   ► that's good and it got me started and

◼   ► broke broke the chains and got the got

◼   ► me actually moving my fingers on the

◼   ► keyboard but then when I go back and

◼   ► read it all over again it really really

◼   ► really

◼   ► better if i start with the second

◼   ► paragraph yeah yeah it happens all the

◼   ► time

◼   ► yeah the real lead is is is the second

◼   ► sentence writing paragraph something

◼   ► overly clever and and off off the tone

◼   ► of the rest of the piece drivers i could

◼   ► probably a good were well we're about 20

◼   ► minutes and so why don't I take the time

◼   ► now and i'll do the sponsor break we

◼   ► only have one sponsor for this very

◼   ► special show the magazine from our good

◼   ► friend and we've already mentioned a few

◼   ► times the show Marco Arment so where's

◼   ► Marco think he's out there to areas so

◼   ► the magazine is really interesting it's

◼   ► it's marco has taken what sort of the

◼   ► skeleton of instapaper which i'm going

◼   ► to assume everybody out there knows and

◼   ► instead of making a thing where you send

◼   ► articles to it and and stash it and read

◼   ► it he's taken the skeleton of his

◼   ► articles and here's a nice presentation

◼   ► area and I really nice reading interface

◼   ► and he's gone into publishing himself

◼   ► and he's had you know is one issue is

◼   ► out right now as we do the show there's

◼   ► there's one issue and it's just great

◼   ► it's loaded up with singleton talent

◼   ► we've got got an article by our friend

◼   ► good guy English we've got article and

◼   ► baseball and text from Jason Snell who

◼   ► is the other would the Oh Michael lobby

◼   ► yeah I analysis pain who is not here

◼   ► shame on him

◼   ► why doesn't always pay not here if

◼   ► everybody else from the issue i don't

◼   ► think i've seen in front since seafloor

◼   ► probably i don't know but it was a

◼   ► really great article that was for

◼   ► dynamite articles all over the place and

◼   ► are not all over the place but of widely

◼   ► different topics and it's just a real

◼   ► simple idea and the simple idea

◼   ► financially is buck 99 would have but 99

◼   ► how often a month buck ninety-nine a

◼   ► month and you get two issues a month of

◼   ► really thoughtful really interesting

◼   ► articles and it it seems so simple and i

◼   ► think it's going to

◼   ► like Marco in his introduction said I do

◼   ► i know that this is gonna work I don't

◼   ► know

◼   ► yeah but i it's going to and it has all

◼   ► sorts of stuff that I think is just it

◼   ► sounds ridiculous that this is the sort

◼   ► of thing that deserves praise but you

◼   ► can like select text right there like

◼   ► how crazy is it that that's actually a

◼   ► feature deserving praise in an app for

◼   ► reading when the OS has a feature that

◼   ► like you select a word and you can get a

◼   ► little button to define if you know

◼   ► somebody uses the word you don't know if

◼   ► you subscribed to redo read the magazine

◼   ► and I i will but I've been traveling so

◼   ► I been you know too busy to actually get

◼   ► in front of my devices but I will as

◼   ► soon as i get home very much looking

◼   ► forward to it I i love the am I like the

◼   ► model where he has like 30 days or

◼   ► something exclusive rights and then then

◼   ► the person can republish it but i think

◼   ► what that does is it

◼   ► it encourages the writers write

◼   ► something timeless rather than just you

◼   ► know that news that the news of the day

◼   ► you know their rights something that

◼   ► will last a while and right that's good

◼   ► call it the magazine the idea for it

◼   ► fits or fill so many needs that have

◼   ► been left as everybody has moved towards

◼   ► blogging and tweeting and doing these

◼   ► things that when you hit the publish

◼   ► button the people who is intended for

◼   ► can start reading it

◼   ► seconds later and you know there's

◼   ► obviously and it that publishing model

◼   ► obviously and even in my case definitely

◼   ► leads me to writing things that are more

◼   ► about the here and now or this week or

◼   ► anything that just came out the two days

◼   ► ago or the thing that now we all know

◼   ► have heard is coming out on october 23rd

◼   ► on as opposed to thinking about things

◼   ► that just the audience at home knows I'm

◼   ► John's holding an ipad mini as we speak

◼   ► that's where I've got my show notes and

◼   ► it does i mean and these and i would

◼   ► have I would say 44 in the first four

◼   ► articles in the issue one of the

◼   ► magazine all for them if Marco had like

◼   ► taking one of them and put it in his

◼   ► pocket editorial pocket and published it

◼   ► in issue 26 a year from now it would

◼   ► still worst anniversary issue it would

◼   ► be just as timeless and would fit just

◼   ► as well I bet he does have articles in

◼   ► his party probably tell you should

◼   ► probably so yeah so anyway everybody out

◼   ► there if you haven't already check out

◼   ► the magazine I you can go to the app

◼   ► store and search for the magazine and

◼   ► you won't find it

◼   ► ok but maybe by the time to show airs

◼   ► you will it is a weird problem with

◼   ► naming it and that i will add this is

◼   ► that before he launched Marco ran the

◼   ► idea by me and I I I poo-pooed the title

◼   ► the magazine as being too generic in a

◼   ► chat mr. talk shows and that's exactly

◼   ► and then as soon as I hit return i

◼   ► realized i had to immediately type this

◼   ► coming from the guy whose podcast is

◼   ► called the talk show and I was like so

◼   ► and then i read like next line was like

◼   ► so now what we're going to call you the

◼   ► John now i was like i went from I think

◼   ► it's too generic and i wrote this coming

◼   ► from the guys podcast is the talk show

◼   ► and I wrote so great title haha and i

◼   ► believe the what what's the URL i don't

◼   ► have it handy i should have

◼   ► are you sure

◼   ► [Music]

◼   ► so Marco says the the URL is the dash

◼   ► magazine dot org and go there I door is

◼   ► a non-profit alright

◼   ► you know people used to tell me with

◼   ► daring fireball net because it used to

◼   ► be i think that the original I can

◼   ► definition of dotnet was you had to be

◼   ► like a sort of like a service provider

◼   ► or yeah I think yeah and dogs had to be

◼   ► nonprofits and i still wanna dot edu for

◼   ► instance not even you

◼   ► it's a high school mixology yeah I was

◼   ► gonna say I'm I definitely frightened

◼   ► don't know what you learned at brents

◼   ► Evans done it you i also want printed

◼   ► and start gov as I'm sure that brendan

◼   ► is dead you all the ads are from lawyers

◼   ► bail bondsman i did another podcast i

◼   ► talked about going to jail i did hear

◼   ► that if you've read that one was pretty

◼   ► good

◼   ► that's David Lex unprofessional and this

◼   ► is their little plug

◼   ► yeah go ahead and i'm done that was a

◼   ► short plug I so one of the things that I

◼   ► find interesting and I feel like

◼   ► everybody has to deal with it let's say

◼   ► I would just say this is what has been a

◼   ► lot of talk this because it's new and

◼   ► everybody isn't really sure whether it's

◼   ► gonna take off its like it just seems

◼   ► like this is AB dotnet what was it

◼   ► what's your take on app.net I don't know

◼   ► if it's going to live

◼   ► I like it a lot because i like the

◼   ► service and i really wanted Twitter to

◼   ► be the thing that I loved because it was

◼   ► the thing I love for a long time but I

◼   ► just don't love the company and it

◼   ► seemed that when netbotz came out alpha

◼   ► dynamic what the hell is this thing

◼   ► called that's charlie suddenly there's a

◼   ► lot of people actually using it and I'm

◼   ► like I'm not checking twitter anymore

◼   ► i'm using the ADN or whatever the hell

◼   ► it's called here there is a dad this is

◼   ► like where I fail as a talk show host

◼   ► but there's like three things about

◼   ► app.net that I i want to talk about and

◼   ► none of them really seemed to lead to

◼   ► each other and you just touch on all

◼   ► three of them so let me just say them

◼   ► and you guys can remind me when we go

◼   ► off on a tangent one of them to go back

◼   ► but one of them is a terrible name but

◼   ► it's not even a name that's like one of

◼   ► them is that if twitter

◼   ► had behaved and what seems to be the

◼   ► most obvious way in the way that they

◼   ► should they're never be any room for it

◼   ► to happen we'd never be talking about it

◼   ► right and the third one is that it's

◼   ► like it's been a great little science

◼   ► experiment since net but came out about

◼   ► the importance of apps

◼   ► yeah girl isn't web clients yeah so

◼   ► those are the three things let's talk

◼   ► about the name first which is terrible

◼   ► nobody even knows what to call it like

◼   ► yeah some people call app.net some

◼   ► people call it

◼   ► Etienne which comes from app.net like

◼   ► I've never even seen that before where

◼   ► the dot and something's name becomes

◼   ► part of its initials I've never seen

◼   ► that people are grasping at straws that

◼   ► hit anything to give it an identity

◼   ► right and then their reference

◼   ► implementation of a client for the

◼   ► service they called alpha and so it's

◼   ► like the URL is alpha dot app.net and

◼   ► then there was some confusion maybe the

◼   ► thing is called alpha and nobody really

◼   ► right they can't go into beta now

◼   ► however because alpha is the name I and

◼   ► I forget I was just talking about it i

◼   ► think the first night that I was here in

◼   ► Montreal we and and just how it's almost

◼   ► impossibly generic the name app.net

◼   ► right because everything if you're

◼   ► writing software is a nap and when is

◼   ► the last time any of us has had a new

◼   ► app that hasn't in some way use the net

◼   ► right like I'm trying to think like even

◼   ► games games are still connecting with

◼   ► game center and sending saved stuff like

◼   ► it really is almost impossibly generic

◼   ► yeah yeah and you could look at it in

◼   ► one way I all the personality for

◼   ► whatever it's called is going to come to

◼   ► the clients when I think of whatever

◼   ► this is called I picture the net bot

◼   ► icon right that's saying that as you

◼   ► know it famously happened with Twitter

◼   ► in the early days while when is crack

◼   ► here still

◼   ► yeah and for Twitter X and up we can't

◼   ► see you again

◼   ► all right areas if it had been for

◼   ► twitterrific I would never I mean I saw

◼   ► terrific price on Twitter and I'm like I

◼   ► like this app will have to do you have

◼   ► been famously well maybe not famously

◼   ► actually much to the injustice of it but

◼   ► Twitter itself didn't use any kind of

◼   ► bird iconography at all not the

◼   ► silhouette or anything they were using a

◼   ► lowercase T bubble font thing as their

◼   ► logo and twitterrific shipped with

◼   ► what's the bird's name Ali the bird and

◼   ► it was such a spectacularly perfect icon

◼   ► for the twitter experience that all of a

◼   ► sudden it became one of the most like

◼   ► ripped off things right in in the

◼   ► universe like everybody all across the

◼   ► web when they would link to their

◼   ► twitter account would put the

◼   ► twitterrific icon there as a

◼   ► representation of Twitter mm I don't

◼   ► know how that escaped the Twitter people

◼   ► they named their service up to the sound

◼   ► of bird makes and didn't use a bird

◼   ► I don't know it's one of those great you

◼   ► know I like like so many great ideas

◼   ► it's so obvious in hindsight but you

◼   ► know it's it's like I've forgotten fact

◼   ► that it was the icon factory that

◼   ► polygon in the word tweet i guess was an

◼   ► icon factory thing and and like 10 or 20

◼   ► other things we all have to thank Craig

◼   ► and his people for him and and because

◼   ► of all the royalties that icon factories

◼   ► getting from Twitter that's why Craig

◼   ► will be the one who issues the refunds

◼   ► for everybody's thanks Craig singleton

◼   ► which one

◼   ► Craig says the medium on his private jet

◼   ► alright so the name stinks and I think

◼   ► names matter i think names matter

◼   ► yeah i was on the other hand I could

◼   ► their attitude seems be hey we're gonna

◼   ► make a generic service and developers

◼   ► are the ones who are going to add

◼   ► personality to it i don't know if that

◼   ► will work but as a developer i kind of

◼   ► don't mind their humility there right

◼   ► I do I i do but i do think that it also

◼   ► speaks to one of its it as it seeps into

◼   ► the

◼   ► background of your consciousness what a

◼   ► tremendous advantage twitter has that

◼   ► they own this word tweet which acts as

◼   ► both a noun and a verb and it's a thing

◼   ► so with these things that you send to

◼   ► Twitter our tweets and when you do them

◼   ► you're tweeting and that's really really

◼   ► powerful psychological advantage you

◼   ► know right and very much along the lines

◼   ► that you know doing a web search is

◼   ► called googling right chair

◼   ► yeah I never Google something that thing

◼   ► yeah i do it you know i think that i

◼   ► would i would easily find myself saying

◼   ► that I did yeah they're out of course it

◼   ► so i'm saying though is that dragon his

◼   ► team needs to step up and come up in

◼   ► invent a personality in names and stuff

◼   ► 44 alpha tonight right

◼   ► so second thing is that just the Indians

◼   ► more mouth maybe not more important

◼   ► because i do think names are important

◼   ► but the the honestly indignation that I

◼   ► feel towards the way twitter is is

◼   ► acting towards third party developers

◼   ► and their api's and it's ink brought to

◼   ► light by this app.net thing and as these

◼   ► app.net clients start appearing where

◼   ► it's explicit not even implicit it's not

◼   ► like you have to kind of like swinton

◼   ► think about it it's like absolutely

◼   ► clear as day one of the few things it's

◼   ► as clear as day in the twitter api

◼   ► guidelines is if you're using the

◼   ► twitter api you cannot enter mix the

◼   ► tweets that you're getting or any of the

◼   ► data you're getting from twitter with

◼   ► the content from anything that even any

◼   ► other service

◼   ► yeah and that to me is such bullshit it

◼   ► is exactly like an email provider like

◼   ► imagine an email provider that said you

◼   ► cannot put any email from us into a

◼   ► unified inbox

◼   ► yeah imagine google saying that about

◼   ► retail clients of something yet that it

◼   ► just makes no sense because it's just

◼   ► totally and again and you know and and

◼   ► people often call me out on this because

◼   ► you know I i will write pieces that were

◼   ► i'm not i really don't see myself as

◼   ► defending apple's app store i'm trying

◼   ► to explain what they're thinking and I'm

◼   ► so I do understand I'm not

◼   ► I'm not saying Twitter can't do this you

◼   ► know or even that they're morally wrong

◼   ► for doing i just think that they're

◼   ► being foolish because I think being that

◼   ► what's the word showering and arrogant

◼   ► sure it will say they've lost the love

◼   ► of this room and and many rooms like it

◼   ► exactly it is you know it's easy to say

◼   ► that that hardcore geeks don't matter

◼   ► much but what we do because we tell our

◼   ► parents and siblings and family

◼   ► what software to use and and you know we

◼   ► have an outsized amount of power and

◼   ► when you lose the geeks you lose a lot I

◼   ► think

◼   ► well they've turned our backs on a lot

◼   ► of people who truly had and even have

◼   ► remaining in to some extent but its

◼   ► dwindling affection for twitter right

◼   ► right like a really liked them and

◼   ► they've just turned their backs on that

◼   ► and it just seems like that is something

◼   ► that they seem to be acting as though

◼   ► it's irrelevant now whereas I don't

◼   ► think that's the case at all

◼   ► I i think that they should be to the top

◼   ► levels absolutely positively like hey we

◼   ► need to actually have like one of these

◼   ► like change courses right now thing

◼   ► because of just even the extent that

◼   ► app.net got off the ground whether it

◼   ► stays up like i said it's will see it

◼   ► seems iffy but the fact that there was

◼   ► any enthusiasm at all for it really

◼   ► should have I think if i were there i

◼   ► would be like this is this is awful

◼   ► we've you know this is existence proof

◼   ► that we have screwed this up

◼   ► mm yep and into me just you know it just

◼   ► seems so ridiculous like why wouldn't

◼   ► you let them integrate tweets into some

◼   ► other thing if that's what they want to

◼   ► do

◼   ► sure you know let a thousand flowers

◼   ► bloom right let all know let people

◼   ► write all kinds of software it's just

◼   ► going to make your your service all the

◼   ► more valuable and beloved right and

◼   ► they're like no I and you know and it

◼   ► off tonight I think it easily comes back

◼   ► to you know a lot of the stuff you've

◼   ► done like RSS and now the difference is

◼   ► twitter is in a unique position where

◼   ► they can do this because they are become

◼   ► so popular they are big that they can do

◼   ► it and they can make you know developers

◼   ► write separate apps for appt dotnet

◼   ► then Twitter even though it would make a

◼   ► lot more sense if they would just

◼   ► integrated into the same app right I but

◼   ► it reminds me of publishers who like

◼   ► wouldn't want to publish RSS feeds or

◼   ► wouldn't want to publish full data RSS

◼   ► feeds and of course there's are good

◼   ► reasons there are reasons you think like

◼   ► we'll all of our ads are coming this

◼   ► other way we don't have ads in the RSS

◼   ► we don't know what to do but when you

◼   ► like try to take your stuff and keep it

◼   ► in your own little box it's good stuff

◼   ► never happens because the users people

◼   ► that I say users but just people want

◼   ► this stuff to just let me put it where I

◼   ► want right right exactly

◼   ► yeah and trying to control stuff in that

◼   ► way is some swimming against the time

◼   ► that's rarely works out I and I you know

◼   ► the netnews wiser net new newswires a

◼   ► perfect example where my life a year

◼   ► before to a year after the existence of

◼   ► netnewswire was that i was suddenly

◼   ► reading all sorts of stuff not on the

◼   ► website where it was written which may

◼   ► be you know in some ways was a loss for

◼   ► those websites if I previously read them

◼   ► but reading so much more in the

◼   ► aggregate including a lot of sources

◼   ► where I wouldn't be reading them

◼   ► regularly at all and at least I'm

◼   ► reading right and so I can't help but

◼   ► think that it was a win for so many

◼   ► websites not that me in particular was

◼   ► reading it but that every you know

◼   ► everybody using that newswire was really

◼   ► poor reading a lot more then than they

◼   ► could have before yeah right

◼   ► I and you know and then it comes down to

◼   ► you know there's nothing just too many

◼   ► people but you know people who accuses

◼   ► app like Instapaper of somehow was

◼   ► surfing or Flipboard or something like

◼   ► that of stepping on the toes are pointed

◼   ► out it's really know it's there just

◼   ► giving people other options for

◼   ► consuming your content and shouldn't you

◼   ► just be thrilled that people want to

◼   ► consume want to read your stuff

◼   ► yeah absolutely hopefully that's your

◼   ► call and if not choose another business

◼   ► i think and and I just think Twitter is

◼   ► totally lost it so what was my third

◼   ► thing my third thing was oh I don't know

◼   ► but i have a dip to Costello Castello's

◼   ► story actually gotten that is good and

◼   ► I think I I haven't thought about this

◼   ► in years but it was at acosta Costolo

◼   ► CEO and your twitter chief executive

◼   ► officer and chief dick officer of bread

◼   ► right so it's easy to not like him

◼   ► because he's in charge of this whole

◼   ► thing and it seems awful but the first

◼   ► time I met him was years ago and it was

◼   ► evening at adler or the first c4 perhaps

◼   ► and times in chicago and I'd just

◼   ► started working in newsgator and

◼   ► feedburner was in Chicago and dick was

◼   ► at feedburner and both those companies

◼   ► were funded by Brad Feld and I don't

◼   ► know mobius whatever he was doing at the

◼   ► time so you know Brad encouraged me to

◼   ► go to the paper printer offices and meet

◼   ► dick and everybody and so I go into

◼   ► their office and it's a big open space

◼   ► and I I walk in there and I can't

◼   ► remember his dick or somebody else um

◼   ► introduces me to the entire company all

◼   ► at once and this is C probably 2,000 for

◼   ► something like that news when I was just

◼   ► starting to become a really big hit and

◼   ► of course the guys at feedburner had

◼   ► stats on the head knew exactly how big

◼   ► it was and the entire office applauded

◼   ► me and I was just really really fucking

◼   ► cool i just like for being the guy who

◼   ► wrote the software you know that added

◼   ► loved that and then we went out to lunch

◼   ► and dick was charming and funny i think

◼   ► is a theater background and I had a

◼   ► great time and it was it's only years

◼   ► later I'm like I want to kick it down

◼   ► it's just it's it's so easy you have

◼   ► right to go with the joke about his name

◼   ► but really you can't help it right yeah

◼   ► I had a torch here church dick

◼   ► areas if I had an uncle dick my father's

◼   ► my father's brother was was Richard

◼   ► grouper and and everybody calling dick

◼   ► but he was a little bit older even than

◼   ► my dad and he died a couple years ago

◼   ► but he was up that generation now he was

◼   ► like you know dick cheney and and those

◼   ► guys Sammy was you know that grandpa

◼   ► dick

◼   ► yeah Davis him i was a good name back

◼   ► then but yeah totally

◼   ► yeah yeah ma a white mug with black

◼   ► lettering big bull letters dick cheney

◼   ► drank his coffee out of that every

◼   ► morning and I'm like that's a hell of a

◼   ► good way to start at center for some

◼   ► reason the name seems to have fallen out

◼   ► of favor in recent decades though let's

◼   ► bring it back alright name your kids

◼   ► dick even the girls all right so last

◼   ► thing on apt and we can probably wrap up

◼   ► the show with it but I didn't think that

◼   ► it was really an interesting experiment

◼   ► and I certainly have the belief that

◼   ► native clients native for the mac native

◼   ► for iOS are the way to go for so many to

◼   ► it if at all possible that's the way to

◼   ► go and it just makes everything better

◼   ► latency is better interface is better

◼   ► you can you're less restricted about

◼   ► where things go you can make things look

◼   ► just right and as hard as it may be and

◼   ► you can go back to you know Brad's talk

◼   ► about how hard it is to get things

◼   ► looking exactly right when you're truly

◼   ► a perfectionist

◼   ► it certainly is a lot how hard it can be

◼   ► how much work way easier with a native

◼   ► app then with with the web a great

◼   ► example i think was tweeted or outfit or

◼   ► something by I think Matt trance you put

◼   ► up a screenshot of that wet wet platform

◼   ► dot org or something

◼   ► have you seen this downside well it's

◼   ► talking about the web as a platform and

◼   ► of course if you open it on your iphone

◼   ► it it is completely fucked up that like

◼   ► that like yep and that pretty much just

◼   ► nails it you know and and it i also ties

◼   ► in again to Marco's talk from yesterday

◼   ► and Marco at one point he was talking

◼   ► about a conference that he had spoken

◼   ► and he didn't mention because I i I'd it

◼   ► was ended up being a rather unpleasant

◼   ► experience but as he described it

◼   ► it was a a conference for web developers

◼   ► and web designers and Marco you know who

◼   ► he did work at tumblr on but you know is

◼   ► certainly far more well known for his

◼   ► work on clients like guys to paper on

◼   ► and and more or less the message he gave

◼   ► was you guys shouldn't be thinking so

◼   ► much about the web you should be

◼   ► thinking about what's the best

◼   ► experience for users and a lot of cases

◼   ► it's going to be a nap a native app and

◼   ► I maybe even only a native app and he

◼   ► held up Instagram as an example here I

◼   ► am getting my instant papers and

◼   ► instagrams exactly right

◼   ► so far i have made a mistake I and I

◼   ► think that pixma tourism to sponsor to

◼   ► yeah I want to hear that in person we

◼   ► know i would say with a French accent

◼   ► come back pics of mixing mentor and make

◼   ► sure this will be stopped

◼   ► yeah but I thought that and I I thought

◼   ► Marco didn't extrapolate that though to

◼   ► the right degree of Marco is you know is

◼   ► usually he's a nice guy but he is not

◼   ► artificially humble is that he kind of

◼   ► took away from that I gave these guys

◼   ► this message and he got beat the ends up

◼   ► long story short heat that this

◼   ► conference gives all the attendees get

◼   ► to rank the speakers and Marco came out

◼   ► ranked very very poorly or dead last or

◼   ► something like that

◼   ► not because what he said wasn't true and

◼   ► said he was exactly true and Instagram

◼   ► was a remarkably app thing because they

◼   ► sold for a billion fucking dollars

◼   ► yeah i mean are now it's like and then

◼   ► they were hundred million building

◼   ► facing users to yeah but yeah but then

◼   ► they have they still have more and more

◼   ► users and it is by all accounts the most

◼   ► successful social networking thing to

◼   ► have launched in the last couple of

◼   ► years on so it was a great example he

◼   ► was exactly that that's the thing is he

◼   ► should draw satisfaction from the fact

◼   ► that he was dead right

◼   ► the reason he got ranked poorly by the

◼   ► speaker's wasn't cuz what he said wasn't

◼   ► good advice and it wasn't true is

◼   ► because it wasn't what they wanted to

◼   ► hear exactly what is it that this crowd

◼   ► doesn't want to hear that we can tell

◼   ► them there has to be something

◼   ► bars closed bars plus

◼   ► I can't think of anything yeah I don't

◼   ► have been something i think but i think

◼   ► that's one of the great things about

◼   ► this conference though is that people

◼   ► who have come here at our thinking ahead

◼   ► but and and to Marco's point about maybe

◼   ► you should think about a nap i thought

◼   ► the interesting thing about app.net is

◼   ► it seemed to me like uses was going down

◼   ► and down and down and then met bought

◼   ► shipped and there was this huge spike

◼   ► yeah that that day was like the change

◼   ► and I i'm sure they will always remember

◼   ► that day right when that Bob Knepper

◼   ► comes out and suddenly it would validate

◼   ► validate everything and there were you

◼   ► know a lot of new users and a lot of

◼   ► activity in yeah i think that the idea I

◼   ► i think there was only when it was

◼   ► almost taken his religion is that once

◼   ► we got to the point where you could

◼   ► write web apps and web apps would run

◼   ► everywhere that was like some sort of

◼   ► endpoint in the continuum of how

◼   ► software evolved and that they're not

◼   ► everybody certainly not everybody but

◼   ► there were a large number of people who

◼   ► I think sort of took it and still take

◼   ► it and i think that they and now they

◼   ► give marco check minuses on his talks a

◼   ► little that they've broken this dogma

◼   ► that web apps are the future and I think

◼   ► people are still dug in on that and that

◼   ► there was you see a lot of people and

◼   ► they look at the app store and success

◼   ► and they say well that's just temporary

◼   ► soon you know web apps will take over

◼   ► that and i don't i don't think that's

◼   ► true yeah I I don't buy it because of

◼   ► some sort of arms is exactly but it's

◼   ► kinda like that what we as client

◼   ► developers are going to be able to do is

◼   ► always going to outstrip what the web

◼   ► can do now so people who love web

◼   ► development will say hey we're getting

◼   ► this and this and be like hey great

◼   ► awesome that's you're going to really

◼   ► enjoy that but meanwhile we're gonna be

◼   ► you know another mile ahead because it's

◼   ► not like the platform stops and waits

◼   ► for quality it totally doesn't one of my

◼   ► all-time favorite brand

◼   ► Simmons isms I i don't know how many

◼   ► years ago was it could be a long time

◼   ► ago

◼   ► yeah i'll never forget it but you were

◼   ► writing about why Randy was clearly

◼   ► predates the iphone

◼   ► it was why write software for the mac

◼   ► and maybe it was in response to joel's

◼   ► polski thing talking about just how much

◼   ► bigger the windows market / was I and

◼   ► your piece was that it went beyond

◼   ► economics in a you know it wasn't about

◼   ► the size of the audience

◼   ► it was that writing mac apps was the

◼   ► show Yeah Yeah with a capital S yeah

◼   ► right

◼   ► it's the only big league there is or at

◼   ► the time of course now we have iOS but

◼   ► yeah

◼   ► the idea was if you're if you're making

◼   ► software you care about user experience

◼   ► first and and everything you do comes

◼   ► from that that premise right

◼   ► your choice of platform your choice of

◼   ► technologies all choices start with user

◼   ► experience and wanting to do the very

◼   ► best and i'm an ambitious and wanted to

◼   ► play in that you know it in the best

◼   ► playground that there was and because

◼   ► everything else sucks and you know it to

◼   ► throw another I keep it you know because

◼   ► the show is a reference to like that's

◼   ► bad like a baseball term for making it

◼   ► to them to the big leagues right major

◼   ► leagues where baseball professional

◼   ► baseball United States has these

◼   ► hierarchies of you know they're all

◼   ► professional but you go from a to

◼   ► double-a to triple-a and I don't even

◼   ► know i might not even be thousands of

◼   ► players active at any given time as it

◼   ► was fill all these teams and all sorts

◼   ► of local team you know all really small

◼   ► towns have a professional baseball team

◼   ► but it's you know amateurs or not

◼   ► amateurs but guys making like a thousand

◼   ► dollars a month

◼   ► yeah right sleeping on buses and

◼   ► something that and then you make it to

◼   ► the show yeah that's the real deal and

◼   ► all of a sudden the bright lights are on

◼   ► and the big money's there and you're not

◼   ► playing in front of 700 people you're

◼   ► playing in front of 35,000 people

◼   ► yep yeah and you're on television and

◼   ► you have groupies and and you make a

◼   ► mistake and it's on the front page of

◼   ► the sports section the next day

◼   ► that's right and if you do something

◼   ► good it's on the front page escort

◼   ► section the next day

◼   ► yeah so their scrutiny yeah absolutely

◼   ► yeah but it's really i think it comes

◼   ► down to you you've got to be obsessed em

◼   ► right like so why play baseball instead

◼   ► of basketball for those guys to play

◼   ► baseball because that's the sport there

◼   ► you know a lot of guys who are athletic

◼   ► could do anything but it is a sport that

◼   ► activates the mind and you can't get you

◼   ► can't get unhooked from it and I think

◼   ► that's what great user experiences for a

◼   ► developer like you

◼   ► yeah I have nothing to add to that that

◼   ► will bring thank you for being here

◼   ► thank you to the hosts at singleton

◼   ► absolutely thank you so much even even

◼   ► with the bad badges it was remarkable

◼   ► and extraordinarily generous to offer

◼   ► the states to me to do the show here

◼   ► today and absolutely most of all thank

◼   ► you to all of you who who stayed here to

◼   ► watch this it's always a thrill to do a

◼   ► show live and just a great throw

◼   ► thanks John Thank You Brent

◼   ► [Applause]