The Talk Show

13: Unusually Open, with Michael Lopp


  good morning like the morning Michael

  Bob people often date their number one

  complaint I think about the talk shows

  that I don't introduce my guest

  oh I don't we just start talking and we

  talk so I I'm introducing you your name

  is Michael op mmm I don't think I've

  ever heard you

  maybe it's South myself as you said

  Michael out but I'm either i'd never

  heard my full name from you in a really

  long time

  this microphone is huge John thank you

  for the recommendation but I've got this

  huge thing point of space which i think

  sounds really good but it's just it's

  it's dominating the room that would be

  the road podcaster yes is my

  recommendation it so I had it all the

  way back dates back to recommendation

  from our good friend and Benjamin former

  close to the show more or less the

  answer is if you don't know what to get

  you want to record a podcast you get the

  road podcaster USB mic but it is

  enormous it's about the size of like a

  grown man's forearm but it i think it I

  think it actually here's better than I

  do when I first put it on I put on the

  headphones my license huge I could hear

  my kids in the other room right i mean i

  could pick yeah I'm like oh you know are

  they doing down there and i took my

  headphones off and I couldn't hear them


  could it actually makes me as i told you

  an email actually makes me feel Bionic I

  can hear everything around me right you

  can hear that I i can hear when i

  whenever I plugin i can hear the wheels

  of my chair on the floor right

  did you get the bionic arm thing for it

  i did my kids come in and play with it

  and they're like this is so awesome that

  is radio store like no I'm just nerd

  ok big week while two big pieces from

  daring fireball I was like I felt

  compelled since we were talking to go

  and read them you know i'll tell you

  this because you'll appreciate this and

  I think maybe the people listen to it

  listen to the show will appreciate it

  maybe it's just the early morning

  loopiness but i wasn't i know you know

  this that and a few people have noted it

  that that yesterday yesterday Monday

  there this week the 13th of of august

  was in fact the 10-year anniversary of

  the first post on daring fireball

  congratulations thank you i didn't note

  this publicly i didn't mention it I've

  never to my knowledge I don't believe

  noted publicly that August thirteenth is

  an anniversary date for daring fireball

  I so like a year ago I didn't know

  tonight anniversary i didn't know the

  eight that in the seventh

  I knew it though I was very much aware

  of it like I went to bed Sunday night I

  went to bed thinking I hope nobody

  notices or says anything tomorrow and

  when I woke up it was the opposite there

  were a bunch of really nice things cocky

  Rosa nice thing there is nothing at the

  Atlantic couple people around the web

  had did take notice of it knew that it

  was the 10-year anniversary and it

  everything that everybody wrote about it

  was all very complimentary was very very

  flattering and I i went from waking up

  thinking I hope nobody has noticed this

  to thinking well this is this is all

  very very nice and I feel very flattered

  you remember but the day that i wrote

  the first one

  yeah remember i do you can you describe

  describe it

  well I don't know the day so much but I

  do remember that I'd spent a weeks

  leading up to it working on the site the

  design picking the color i mean i've

  i've said this like tomorrow and a

  couple of times that you know took me a

  long time to pick the exact color a

  little darker a little lighter little

  darker or lighter and looking at in

  multiple monitors and trying to find

  that the right shade of ever so slightly

  blue-tinted gray and and and various

  other aspects of the design but

  eventually it was ready to go and I just

  need to do something to write and and I

  the thing i could and i can remember

  this feeling very probably is that as

  nerve-wracking as it is to write

  something for public consumption for me

  it's even more nerve-racking to write

  something for nobody's consumption that

  it's like you know and and in the same

  way that it's nerve-racking to get up

  and speak in public in front of an

  audience to me it would be even more

  awkward to get up on a stage with a

  microphone and speak in front of an

  empty room with a microphone and then

  that to me is what publishing the first

  article felt like like getting up and

  giving a speech in front of what i

  suspected to be a completely empty room

  and when I the magic is the first step I

  think exciting once you have it go into

  me and it's like going from going out

  for a run right where you know you know

  you want to run four miles or three

  miles or something like that and if

  you're halfway through and you just feel

  beat but you know you're not home yet

  and you know you're having done the

  thing you just keep your feet moving

  just keep moving just keep moving and

  eventually you're going to be home and

  you're gonna have the miles it but to me

  that the one that's hardest is right

  outside your front door when you haven't

  started yet right and you're not sweaty

  and you're not tired and you haven't you

  know if you haven't even started loving


  it's just going from i'm standing still

  haven't started to ok i'm running that

  transition that's the hard part

  totally present because once you start

  it's it it's way easier to keep going

  and it is to get started getting started

  is without question the hardest part I

  think I've had like three or four

  articles on the topic of just that that

  nodes you have to give yourself so I

  thought about this considerably now and

  i will say this I i well and i'm and and

  i'm going to be unusually open because

  it's you

  oh ah but the idea I had was that I

  wasn't going to publicly acknowledge

  that 10-year anniversary of of daring

  fireball was going to tacitly

  acknowledged and but i would implicitly

  it acknowledged it by publishing on the

  actual 10th anniversary a what I thought

  to be prototypically daring fireball

  which article but the article I was

  going to write was the one that I didn't

  write on 13th is the one I wrote

  yesterday on the further information and

  and speculation on the ipad mini but I

  didn't write that on the 13 i wrote on

  the 13 my review the retina macbook pro

  here's how that came about is when I

  woke up on under 13 and this is true I

  swear and I realized that there were a

  couple people around the web who did

  notice and acknowledge that 10-year

  anniversary of during fireball one of

  them was to see the Senate's at the the

  Atlantic this young kid he's only in

  college Robinson Meyer wrote an article

  in the Atlantic called happy 10th

  birthday daring fireball and it's it's a

  really nice little piece very very

  flattering overall anybody who got our

  my dad my dad even called me on the day

  and my dad like like he often doesn't

  acknowledge it but sometimes that he

  can't help because there's no other way

  that he can acknowledge what he's

  talking about but but that he apparently

  like I don't know if he does it every

  day but at least a couple times a week

  my dad Google's my name and sees what's

  going on and he doesn't really get it is

  not a technology guy right on but

  googling my name on Monday this this

  came up and you know the Atlantic you

  know that's like a a list name and you

  decide you see this thing atlantic in

  the end and yeah I my dad you know kind

  of my dad stay so Robinson Meyer never

  heard before but he wrote this nice

  piece of mind attend anniversary daring

  firebomb he says at the beginning and I

  think this is very nice and I feel like

  this is a guy who gets it he wrote it's

  a blog not just about Apple what about

  excellence nice i say that as a sentence

  that's actually that's a guy who gets it

  and its season 14

  it's all very very flattering and

  anybody who had an article like this

  written about their work should be very

  very flattering but I wasn't flattered

  because at the very end was this

  paragraph is the third from the bottom

  it says the past year DF hasn't been as

  enjoyable as it has been in the past

  Oh Apple groupers Beatrice is engorged

  as a company and now seems to be veering

  from interesting complex to dolly

  complicated parentheses i hope the next

  few months prove me wrong on both counts

  in parentheses 10 years ago grouper pick

  the right story at the right time and

  followed the most complete business

  turnaround anesthetic parable in recent

  history but in light of that victory is

  renegade confidence has become an

  assured superiority he hasn't written

  for a long time and engaging description

  of a laptop and now that was a link to

  my 2005 article on a powerbook what was

  then called a powerbook right 15

  powerbook or an account of an

  anthropomorphized interface settlement

  and in that paragraph really stuck with

  me and really I really pissed me off and

  that made me that honest to god that's

  what made me instead of writing

  yesterday about the upcoming tablet

  stuff that I thought about and know

  about little little little bits here and

  there that I know a little bit here and

  there that I've sort of thought through

  and I thought fuck you i'll show you a

  fucking engaging description product you

  know I yeah but you know what i mean add

  to me and and then I thought about it

  after I why did i do that why would i

  I'd why would i get so fired up about an

  article that I should be should feel

  flattered by not fired up by but I feel

  like that's the way you have to be I

  feel like you've got to if you're not

  looking for

  I don't sometimes I feel like you need

  to look for an enemy not an enemy bet

  you I don't know what am I my I if

  people knew people who have actually

  really changed my day or bend the

  sources of articles if they actually

  knew who they were

  I don't have a lot of the mortises or

  anonymous people but the amount of

  energy that i get from sort of the

  random critic who's sane a critical

  right not this the total troll it may be

  shocked i mean i can't like do origin

  stories and all the articles but the

  amount of of energy that I've gotten

  from random folks and like hey you know

  rands is not resonating with me and

  really said anything like a month or two

  this person who i do not know at all who

  know just ruined my weekend because i'm

  going to sit there and write a piece

  about pens or something like that this

  happens it happens a lot

  I'm listening I see everything that

  comes by my inbox and it does affect

  even though i don't know these people

  are right but yeah and in and you'll

  make it fire you up

  yes right and end and I know that

  athletes are like this too and if you

  say anything that can be construed as

  confrontational it's going up on the

  locker room wall and it's going to be

  framed and and they're going to use that

  and they're going to say off

  this guy right you know you think you're

  going to be dust you know if you imply

  that you think you're going to beat the

  opposing team that's going up on the

  that's going up on the locker room board

  and everybody in the opposing team is

  going to see that you need something to

  fire you up

  yeah I mean it's not about you but like

  most of my most of my pieces

  I'd literally see like seventy percent

  of the piece in my head based on just

  some again bit flipping in my head like

  I'm like to do and it's like oh I can

  that's the thing i want to say right and

  it's what it's someone kicking me or

  just being inspired by reading something

  i can actually see the whole piece and

  that's what i want to have that moment

  it's just run to the nearest keyboard as

  quickly as possible or piece of paper

  and just start getting it out there it's

  a lovely experience i love when I

  capture that I I just paste the link to

  do you see this guy named kemper Smith a

  distant shape distant shaped on this

  beautiful and and he did this with no

  help from me and he didn't didn't pay me

  in advance i didn't turn down a request

  but he did this is he he downloaded all

  962 full articles that I written during

  fireball over the last 10 years and tag

  them himself even though i've actually

  been tagging all of my articles all

  along but but the tags I've been

  applying to them aren't exposed publicly

  anywhere they're only in movable-type

  behind the scenes and and you know I

  guess someday i'll try to expose it

  somehow I but it's not publicly

  available so this guy downloaded all the

  articles read them all and as you read

  them tag them all and you can see the

  tags he applied underneath and he

  I email them and after this came out

  because it's so interesting and at

  number one I asked him do did you tag

  all these yourself and he was like yeah

  sigh oh my god I feel almost feel guilty

  about that because I've got the tags

  behind the scenes and could save you

  some work but but maybe the tags he

  implied or more interesting but maybe

  they're more honest because they're

  they're more objective than the text i

  would have applied but he even admitted

  that he didn't do it from the outset to

  achieve the vigil visualization he has

  but only realized as he was going that

  it would make for a good visualization

  is that he's he's applied colors to the

  articles on this this graph blue meaning

  desktop topics typically almost

  certainly mac and pink for mobile

  meaning iOS or or ipad i guess and it

  just so happens if you think about it

  that given that the iphone came out in

  2007 that if if now is the 10-year

  anniversary of during fireball that it's

  actually half of the you know the first

  half the first five years that I've been

  writing during fireball there was no

  iphone in the last five years there has

  been an iphone and you can kind of see

  and this this graph that has made the

  shift in topics on during fireball from

  desktop to mobile you got blue on the

  left you've got kind of purple in the

  middle and then we'll pink on the on the

  right so he's also got a pivot to go to

  showing our article links as well and

  there's something very comforting

  stop it looks like you're generally

  writing shorter articles but what's more

  interesting to me is that there's this

  flow to the sides of your articles over

  the course of a year it looks like yeah

  there's this little like sort of bump it

  looks like what winter time I can

  actually figure it out but there is a

  cake there's a structure to the size of

  your articles over the course of the

  year which is fascinating

  yeah and it's not winter though it's is

  its I don't know now but there is there

  is a pattern to it but it doesn't quite

  seem to be

  the cyclical it or doesn't quite

  correspond to the calendar in any way

  but there is like a sine wave like

  motion to it interesting and it is

  interesting and it's the sort of thing

  where I often think about doing stuff

  like this i often think like you know

  what I should do is you know and it's

  the type of programming that I'm

  actually capable of doing is like the

  lemme export everything ever written

  during fire Paul and count all the words

  or or let me I you know I can do stuff

  like this is the type of programming i

  can do or let me a verge how many words

  i've written a month for the last 10

  years or you know is there any kind of

  pattern in my writing fewer words per

  month that my writing you know more are

  you know that sort of thing but then I

  get freaked out by it I get freaked out

  by the self-awareness and I don't do it

  so it's interesting to see somebody else

  to it and you're right there is there's

  definitely like a sine wave pattern here

  to the length of the pieces

  ok there's another tag down here that's

  really important because i know this is

  a personal issue of yours gonna have to

  get a whiny em boston terrier outside my

  windows have to go in like two seconds

  but there's a tag here which is was

  wrong about something and according to

  him just eyeballing this 123456789 10

  tulip maybe like 15 there's 15 that he

  measured as was wrong about something I

  I know you're obsessive about this I

  feel like number is low 15 wrong about

  something that may feel like numbers


  I wish that it was zero god I wish I 1.5

  times a year though I'm wrong about

  something that sense that sounds good

  and and you know what one reason that

  that's could be could be low is that

  he's only counting for lack of a

  sufficient term the full articles the

  ones that that get a star in the RSS

  reader and show up in my arm

  have his own methodology is actually

  suspect he's got the tag right next to

  it is was correct about something and

  it's for my favorite and this is why

  it's a little bit more interesting that

  he tagged the articles rather than going

  with if he had somehow had access to my

  internal tags which don't have stuff

  like that my tags are just stuff like

  you know tablets or Android wear samsung

  vs apple lawsuit or something like that

  he's got one where where is it was a

  grouper knows something i think that

  Google has inside information yeah there

  it is Gruber has inside information

  yeah that's pretty good John syracuse

  let's see what's going on here huh you

  tag John circular less than you've been


  yeah but i do feel i will say this i

  will say this and I've I have said this

  publicly many times that it is one of my

  goals with the site overriding always

  every day always very aware of it is is

  it's in my mind I don't be wrong

  yeah you're right about everything but

  on the other hand you want to i want to

  take chances i want to push myself and I

  if I'm never wrong that I'm not pushing

  hard enough

  sure right i mean i think that's true in

  anything in life right

  I mean it's if you don't have any

  failures you're not pushing yourself

  I and when you are wrong immediately get

  on top of it first thing to do when you

  realize you're wrong is acknowledged it

  and you do it publicly to say you know

  what here's this thing I wrote this

  that's wrong here's why and get on top

  of it do not be the guy who because he

  doesn't want to be wrong starts working

  on ways to show how when he was wrong he

  wasn't wrong

  don't be that guy I think it's it i

  think it's i think its 10-year

  anniversary we can can honor fireball a

  little bit but I think that's one of the

  defining reasons it's been six as full

  as it's the journalism background right

  is you don't just you know you don't

  like where

  and what kind of op-ed pieces and kind

  of dreaming and in poetry and whatnot

  but it's like it you can base your

  statements as best you can

  unless you can flag it as otherwise you

  based on facts right and just when you

  go and you see all the mass media staff

  of people with opinions and going back

  and forth it's sort of refreshing and

  obviously on the fan and bias to

  actually like know that in both the

  pieces that you did this week it's like

  it this is based on the best data that I

  have and I'm going to source the best I

  can and yes i will have opinions about

  this but at the end of the day this this

  is this is this is sourced information

  does that make sense yeah but if i'm

  wrong i'm gonna get right on top of it

  so let's just say for example with this

  whole iPad Mini or ipad air whatever you

  want to call it thing let's say that the

  thing ships and it doesn't have a 4 310

  like one of the fundamental things I've

  been writing about all year is that

  they've if Apple makes a smaller ipad is

  going to have a 1024 x 768 43 aspect

  ratio display at a hundred sixty-three

  DPI let's say this thing ships and it

  has a 16 29 display a widescreen display

  or if I iphone like 32 display well the

  first thing I'm going to do is say well

  holy should I was wrong and linked to

  the instances in the past that I've

  written that it's going to have the 43

  10-6 you know 1048 by the or 1024 x 768

  display and just get it all out and just

  say look I was wrong

  here here here and here terribly awfully

  completely wrong bad assumption and you

  know and and you know get right to show

  how will show where everything I've been

  writing was wrong and immediately try to

  get it you know get on top of all that

  acknowledged everywhere is wrong and

  then get right and then explain what

  that means right

  no other way to do it I don't understand

  people to do it otherwise

  I think they don't want to be wrong

  there's um no the rotating around

  there's another tag here it's very

  interesting tags calls somebody jackass

  I think you think I think this is under

  represented to it looks like in 2006

  you're calling a lot of people jackasses

  but I think you've done it more like us

  me jackass of the week is sort of or

  whatever the is it has it died down

  yeah definitely but that HC the reason

  why is that I think most jackasses of

  the week were linked what I call linked

  list items not full articles right right

  and I would just linked to the jackass

  and explain why they're jackass but

  without writing a full article about

  them so it's there's not going to be a

  lot of them on these tags are great

  fictitious dialogue this is another one

  this is this is one of the first things

  that my memories of you was what was the

  cancer polarized payment say it's too


  chrome right anthropomorphised brushed

  metal interface exactly this is this is

  they feel like a rare treat to me right

  now I feel like you're literally you

  know you're a lot of your articles it's

  clear you're working right you're like

  gotta get this right that these I

  imagine you sitting back drinking a

  martini kind of giggling to yourself as

  you're writing the piece and get a

  little drunk right this is this is what

  i saw in them

  yeah and there's no Dino is somehow i

  feel like i'm a little overdue for

  something silly on the site when we can

  have tags to prove it

  yeah now these tags are great you know

  and i should mention and and I we went

  through this last night you you actually

  hit your 10th anniversary on ransom

  proposed before I did you say it was

  earlier this year you don't you're not

  quite exactly sure when the baby was

  April I wasn't paying attention either

  you know but I got coverage on Fox and

  you know CNN and that cover story about


  so was pretty big deal is I played it

  played quieter now I was it was 10 years

  ago in April I was I was I wasn't gonna

  say anything

  got a couple notes from folks but i was

  i was launching my web fonts at the time

  so it seemed like a time at least say

  something so

  it's a 10 years I find that interesting

  that the two of us started completely

  independently and and over those years

  and many drinks and South thighs and Las

  Vegas situations and it's working here

  we are sitting here 10 years later

  there's something very I'm center just

  think about that and there are and and

  you know i think a lot of it is the

  nature of what's likely if you started

  your website circuit 2002 right there's

  a very good chance that you're running

  movable-type and Beyond are both running

  movable-type you're still running loop


  yeah I've considered other things but I

  mean you might have no reason to leave

  there is nothing it does it doesn't do

  that i needed to do

  although I did see that have not movable

  type but blogger launch medium last

  night inside its I saw that too and it

  is funny because I'll tell you what on

  the days when I'm actually writing a bit

  a bigger article and and the last two

  days monday and tuesday this week that's

  what I've spent my days doing is

  nose-down writing like nobody's talking

  to me and I come skipping meals and i'm

  just writing writing writing right the

  world then passes me by

  right like it is kind of it is kind of

  mutually exclusive to the other side of

  daring fireball where I'm linking to

  what's new and technology with brief

  pieces like so on days when I'm not

  really writing anything big

  I'm like on top of the industry and I'm

  like within five minutes aware of

  everything that's going on everywhere

  and on the days when I'm actually

  writing it's like like last night I went

  I was I don't you know when I realized

  that doesn't that medium was announced

  but it wasn't when it when it hit like

  it was hours later and I was like had

  written my article and my family would

  you know my wife my son they were in bed

  and then I could catch up on Twitter and

  then all of a sudden I realize how we

  should have Evan Williams just launched

  an entire new blogging platform

  something but I don't quite get it

  I don't get medium no I don't get

  together i mean i've given it 15 minutes

  and it's seven so you've gotta pay

  attention right but it's unlike ok i

  haven't found a compelling thing

  although they have a very nice

  to slab serif emser as their mark in

  their logo so but i haven't actually

  like digested with the elder up to get I

  absolutely feel the same way you do wear

  that if the guys last couple of projects

  that he helped launch were blogger and

  Twitter then yet you know you kind of

  want to get you going to get together

  benefit that know you you're like yes I

  will sign up i will give you my fifty

  dollars i will i'm certainly interested

  even though i do not get in and even his

  miss which I would describe odio as was

  the right idea which was a podcast are

  going to be a big deal

  yeah kind of before like because and and

  the thing that killed oh do I think more

  or less was Apple getting into podcasts

  I remember and a and an apple got into

  podcasts surprisingly early for apple

  yes like it i'm still I still think I

  still think it's one of the most

  interesting things apples done the last

  10 years was the way that Apple jumped

  on podcasting so early

  alright I and it kind of killed the

  audio but at least even so even even the

  one that they missed on the thing that

  didn't really amount to much i ended up

  being the right idea just wasn't wasn't

  the right there wasn't really a business

  model he was he was collecting break

  people this is my recollection and

  during that time to like Dunstan and I

  think with this Dorsey was in that and

  that means so he had this incubator

  going on in there so even though it

  didn't work out he had that sort of

  universal people around and let you know

  when often did someone interesting

  things right the long story short I was

  that you know is i the the parent

  company which is a great name

  I i think is one of the great names I've

  said this to have I i don't know if that

  well but I have said this to my life

  when I've seen them is that obvious

  corporation is one of my favorite names

  in the history of naming anything I can

  kind of helps explain it is it is sort

  of a like it's an apt description of

  everything I've Williams ever does

  right right it's like blogger was sort

  of an obvious idea Twitter super obvious

  idea pod containing it's like it's like

  a way of being like are we

  the right path is this is just obvious

  right right but the idea was that the

  audio was their big bat and the thing

  that they actually had money invested in

  and lots of time and everything and they

  like gave up on it and in the meantime

  Jack Dorsey who was working there at

  this little idea for what about this

  thing this idea I have for a centralized

  server for sending status messages and

  then you know boom Twitter yeah eat the

  Duke and pick names medium it's a great

  name and exactly describe I mean it

  whatever i'm not sure what they're doing

  but it's like clearly it's just it's

  just like let's try to reimagine the

  blogging the the content platform can

  let me take a break here and talk about

  the first sponsor ok I and i want to

  tell you it's to iphone app it's a

  repeat sponsor from from few episodes

  ago app for your iPhone called humorless

  photography app it's a camera app for

  your iPhone and it's sort of a do one

  thing and do one thing well app and the

  one thing the humorless does is take

  black and white photography and you like

  Michael up you like black-and-white

  pictures anyone who follows me on

  Instagram knows i'm still furious about

  the removal of the gossip filter because

  i think it was with which is like 18

  months ago i'm still mad about this I

  stilt a grip Garth Gotham because I

  figured out how to sort of approximated

  but a mad and I have a conspiracy theory

  about why

  alright was removed but please continue

  this is a guy was a complete set up

  because I know as a guy who follows your

  Instagram that you love black-and-white

  love photography is all heelys does is

  humorous is an app that is meant for

  taking it it's just it's it's a

  black-and-white camera that's what it is

  and i'm a huge fan of it and i've always

  been a fan of black and white I think

  that there's this weird psychology

  behind black and I know it's not natural

  and know that it's sort of it the whole

  origins of black-and-white were like

  technical limitations that kept us from

  shooting in color but in hindsight

  there's this great great emotional

  effect from black-and-white photography

  and I i think there's really something

  to seeing your pictures in black and

  white as you're shooting them so that

  you know what you're getting

  yeah and that's what euless is all about

  and they have a brand-new version 1.5

  it's in the months since the last time

  they've sponsored to show they've been

  hard at work and the some really great

  features they've got some new aspect

  ratios that you can enjoy so you can

  shoot 1 21 which means square which

  means like optimized for instant paper

  right in the camera intagram 322 which

  is the aspect ratio of the iphone screen

  or at least the iphone that we have

  right now so you can shoot full frame

  you got some new aspect ratios you see

  him right there in on the screen as you

  shoot a bunch of clean up the way that

  they made the user interface even more

  streamlined improve direct access to

  their color filters now the color

  filters you say what the hell you said

  it's a black-and-white app the color

  filter is what i mean is that they

  simulate in terms of traditional

  photography the way that you would put

  like an orange filter over your lens or

  a green filter or blue filter which

  filters the light that comes through and

  you get different degrees of contrast

  works for example on and I'll God and

  it's so early in the morning that it's

  like pitch black here so i can i'm

  guessing wrong but like if you want the

  sky to pop against the clouds I think

  you put like a blue filter on and then

  the blue will look dark and the white of

  the clouds will look white and you put a

  color filter and you get different types

  of contrast out of the black and white

  so in other words it's not about making

  the image tinted color its route

  altering what is dark what is light and

  the thing they've improved the interface

  for that dramatically so that you can

  switch the color filter on the fly in

  the viewfinder and more conveniently it

  really really nice

  it's a for the gotham to certain to back

  up here the the Gotham filter that to

  rebuild it to which involves about two

  different apps which was the first as a

  black-and-white app the first thing that

  I do is actually a red filter which

  actually gets that pop that you see

  against clouds and makes the sky could

  be black so it's like if you list has a

  red filter built right in there's a

  slider that lets you adjust how strong

  it is whether it's dark whether it's


  I it really is absolutely positively one

  of my favorite apps for the iPhone I and

  if i'm thinking if I'm feeling black and

  white i immediately that's what I know I

  want to go to I go to houlis to shoot

  the photo

  I'm and I I think everybody should check

  it out you can go to a humorless hu e le

  SS and find out more get a link

  to their to their app in the App Store

  and if you've already got it just quit

  go to the App Store app and and download

  the 1.5 update you've you definitely

  want it it's it's it's a great update

  everybody should get if you don't have a

  shame on you you list in the appstore

  199 I mean for God's sake won a dollar

  ninety-nine buck 99 how who can't afford

  that less than ever the coffee exactly

  what we're talking about what the hell

  were we talking about

  we were we were we were we were talking

  about ever and medium however serial

  entrepreneurs and that sort of thing

  yeah I said but i don't quite get I

  don't get what medium is quite all about

  but I feel like it i feel like they need

  to do it I'll get it as more people who

  are on it use it

  totally i'll pay very close attention so

  but also blogging really again we're

  doing this

  that's right now I'm cloud the thing i

  saw that help me explain it and and he

  is end and you know he's like one of my

  go-to guys that i've been reading since

  long before i canno and we're talking

  about me and you blogging for 10 years

  but like makes me feel like it hasn't

  even been that long because this guy's

  been at it like when I got started I

  feel like he was already added for a

  long time

  Dave want dave winer I saw dave winer on

  Twitter last night and he's already on

  medium and has an account and I mean

  literally the guy dave winer arguably

  invented blogging maybe even invented


  word and I like the guy was writing

  blogging software like as like well some

  of us haven't even learned HTML yet in

  the nineties and the way he described it

  was that in medium that you don't you

  don't put a category on a post you put a

  post you put a post in a category right

  like a centralized category in the

  system which is sort of an interesting

  way to think about it you don't just

  write a post and tag it Apple there's

  like an apple category and you can put a

  post in it and then somebody out there

  using it would be surfing the Apple

  category and then they'll see your post

  it's not about the individual necessary

  it's looking at these buckets of stuff

  that if you want to go see I don't know

  interesting or new or Apple you can

  stroll down and see all of the different

  pieces inside of it that makes sense

  it's simple that makes sense yeah

  something like that I you get what you

  get you have a macbook pro with retina

  display I don't and I knew you'd ask

  that and then I have I have I feel bad

  because I have seen enough around and

  then work that it's it's it's easy just

  means you're going to say this anyway

  but you just see it in your life is

  completely changed and everything else

  starts to look just you know not so


  yeah so that is sort of one of the

  things that kept me that like had that

  review that I had that kept in the draft

  folder for weeks longer than I had

  originally anticipated is this whole

  angle of it being a machine and a

  technology that I loved and and I say

  that word with no hyperbole that i

  absolutely adore it

  I mean I love it it like strikes my

  childlike wonder

  nerd nerve in a way that that nothing

  like nothing since the original iphone

  has but on the other hand it is not the

  machine for me and and I I'd it's like I

  couldn't square that circle because i

  don't want a 15-inch

  laptop anymore even though it is

  noticeably thinner and noticeably

  lighter than any previous 15 inch laptop

  from apple before I've really gotten

  used to when i leave the house with a

  computer that was this tiny little

  sliver of a macbook air right

  what is your should notice but what is

  your what is your desktop setup because

  I'm wrestling with the same thing right

  now is I've got the cheese grater right

  here on the floor and I've got the 30

  inch and I about the 27-inch next to it

  so we've got some pixels with some

  serious pixel here my my desktop setup

  is totally janky it really it's it's

  ridiculous it's it's an old it actually

  is a 15-inch macbook pro but I don't use

  it as a macbook pro it's a macbook pro

  that never leaves the desk and I don't

  use the built-in display on driving a 20

  inch mirror a measly little 20 and

  cinema display might the macbook pro my

  desk is sold that it has the grace the

  gray keyboard not the black keyboard but

  what is your upgrade for that because

  this is the one and i feel like my

  upgrade this is it this is the thing is

  that my upgrade is I wanted to be a

  retina imac right and I don't want to

  buy an imac that's not retina and I sort

  of had it as a vague thought before and

  now that I've seen an actual retina

  display its mike adamant like I can't

  imagine buying a new any new mac that's

  not a retina right I can't imagine i

  actually left when i left the WWDC

  keynote this year in june i was very

  excited about the retina macbook pro but

  i also thought well now they've they've

  updated the heirs and I my air my 11

  chair is two years old my god it's from

  2010 and it's the the last one that

  Apple made that doesn't have a light up

  keyboard right if you remember in 2010

  the 11-inch didn't have a light up

  keyboard a 13-inch tube and and then

  they came out with a 2011 update that

  was a real nice update and I skipped

  because i just bought the previous

  generation and now I felt like leaving

  the keynote I thought well now it's two

  generations after mine the thing only

  cost a thousand bucks

  I'm sure I can you know find someone

  else to take this two-year-old 1 i'll

  get it and I left the keynotes excited

  about the retina macbook pro been

  thinking hey I should quick jump on

  Apple that common pre-order a brand-new

  11-inch air to replace this one right

  I really I honestly was thinking maybe

  you know I would

  quick preorder one immediately sight

  unseen just quick preorder one and I

  didn't I waited and then the longer i

  use the retina 15-inch macbook pro that

  Apple loan me as a review unit and now I

  I can't bring myself to do it and I

  cannot spend money on a machine that's

  not it doesn't have a Retina display

  so you're gonna do the imac if and when

  it ever comes out as your desktop that's

  going to be your desktop machine that's

  what I'm might in theory what I would

  love to do is get a retina Brian if if

  though if Apple were to ship cinema

  displays with retina just retina right

  and quality then i would buy one of

  those and I don't know I guess get a mac

  pro or or Mac Mini or something to drive


  yeah I think that's the move because i

  feel like i'm wondering if i'm going to

  go to a completely mobile solution but i

  have the same quantity which is I fly a

  lot and the only thing to take on a

  plane is an error

  there's just no doubt in my mind that

  it's it's it's easy to slide in the

  thing that's the chair in front of me

  it's light it's the right size and when

  you're in one of those airports that has

  like a hundred and twenty-two and not

  called terminals like where they called

  gates I got in 20 and you you like all

  right you get through security and

  you're like in an unfamiliar airport

  you're like all right I've got gate ab7

  where am i and you look up and it says

  gate to right here like ah Christ you

  get when you get to gate e7 if you're

  not in the era of the macbook air you

  don't feel like like you're one shoulder

  hurts and your other one doesn't write

  exactly used to like it used to be like

  now if you know I feel like I'm you know

  doing manual labor here I feel like one

  too much you know one of my shoulders is

  ready to fall off right it is addictive

  the lightweight and you know if

  you know it if you're not and I guess if

  you're in first class you know you can

  you can even set up an imac up there but

  in a regular which see it is it it is an

  enormous advantage to have a macbook air

  well even even in first class that i'm

  doing a lot but it's still it's just

  it's for me it's a nice trade-off

  between enough screen real estate the

  moving it around but also you know just

  the perfect size keyboard there's that

  the the smaller keyboard i know there's

  a lot of folks like that really really

  small some form factor is just drives me

  a little bit crazy so I it's the perfect

  it's the perfect size for me on the

  travel and I so I you know I in theory

  like a and you know I'm two years from

  now I i assume that this will be no

  problem and i'll have it all is well

  have a Retina imac wearing a desk in my

  office and a retina 11-inch macbook air

  right I take with me everywhere else too

  huh is it multiple times

  no one monitor I i had multiple monitor

  thing I had it years ago

  last time i had like a real office job

  but I worked at bare-bones software i

  had multiple monitors and I did

  appreciate it

  I know exactly you know what people are

  talking about

  ah but it doesn't really well I don't

  know it doesn't really work for me do

  you do the whole expose whatever always

  forget what it's called this this year

  do you do multiple debt virtual desktops

  sometimes sometimes especially like from

  like when I'm writing a big article is

  out the spaces right and i'll put I have

  everything in space everything is space

  one except space to is only the the the

  BB a document i'm typing in and the

  Safari windows that are specific Lee

  opened for that article right that I've

  got like his research and then i can say

  space to is is the stuff I'm working on

  for the article but it's funny though

  because like i've noticed this the last

  two days because the last two days I've

  spent writing these articles is

  that i'll start out and it seems perfect

  for space to only has two windows BB a

  document and one safari window with two

  tabs by the time i'm done i've got like

  seven Safari windows each with four tabs

  open over there losses many Safari

  windows is the front and the whole thing

  is just as big a jumble is my space

  number one right but it is a

  partitioning way as I did the same thing

  its that's what am I focusing on and

  where am i doing research I have another

  one which is basically distractions

  right so if I'm like taking a mental

  break its that window that has twitter

  in whatever other things are kind of

  sitting by my desktop so one of the

  reasons i ask you about the render

  display name

  yeah is is that like one of the ways

  that you and I are very much alike is is

  a a relentless pursuit of perfection in

  and to an obsessive obsessively detailed

  degree correct on and and the retina

  display enables that right right like I

  mean you've at least you you like loaded

  up your website in a Retina display

  oh no the night I had this actually

  looking at your side at one point this

  is before the retina macbook came out

  was and reading my logo right because I

  don't logo years ago and I suddenly

  looked at it as on the ipad ipad 2 and I

  was like what the hell happened right as

  well as if suddenly all of those jaggies

  and all of that like that that stuff

  that's lost on their regular displays

  was suddenly this in my face and it was

  it looked awful unlike is everybody

  looking at this for the last 10 years

  right so that was my first like moment

  like oh the game is different regarding

  how are actually going to have to have

  our images and what our fonts are gonna

  look like I i noticed and i noticed this

  last week because it will there is a day

  and and i hope to write about it soon is

  and it took me as always with anything

  like this aid a way more time that I

  thought it would I upgraded the fav icon

  daring fireball last week on

  and for a couple of reasons but it took

  me way longer than i thought it would

  but i upgraded it and and mainly to to

  rectify it right and i did notice and as

  I was doing it and went around the web

  and tried to see well who else has a

  retina quality fabric on marine ran

  trans has a retina fav icon i noticed

  that because and it is one of those

  things were when you're surfing you look

  at your website on the retina macbook

  pro and if you don't you look up at the

  URL and you see that that little little

  time fav icon but it's not retina just

  like oh that's not gonna work just

  sentence right yeah it does yeah exactly

  it looks like somebody fax it to you and

  it's like immediately it was like it was

  like pain in my heart it was like I get

  this hurts me it hurts me as though I'm

  I'm listening to somebody insult my wife

  or my child

  alright it hurts me because my beloved

  daring fireball fav icon now looks like

  a complete looks like looks like a piece

  of paper the wet piece of paper I just

  peeled off my shoe

  I've got to fix this but there aren't a

  lot of resources online for how to make

  a retina quality fabric on its its its

  do you know and you know it and it's a

  lot of SEO crap like the SEO crap for

  how to make a fav icon dominates the

  search results yeah that's why I want to

  write about it you know but I knew that

  you've got it but the other thing too

  and i wrote about this in my review is

  that I and this is where your way way

  ahead of me your way at me in and i'm

  way behind the times is that on on the

  retina macbook pro and I think it's true

  for the iphone and the ipad 2 but I feel

  like it r is is even more prominent on

  the retina Mac I that you that did it

  it's so much like print quality outlet

  that you want real fonts the on-screen

  funds and you've switched I've

  I don't know when but you've switched

  this year to ideal sands from a muffler

  and for Jones um it was around the time

  of the 10-year anniversary's want to

  switch into your credit the idea to even

  like consider this idea was was from you

  you i gotta i was flying and I landed

  and I got this rapid text or tweet or

  something from you you're like oh my god

  ideal sands got a big i think it was

  distance so that the inception is is

  from you although i have i have turned

  it on and it's beautiful it's gorgeous

  I'd literally it literally to your to

  your point is when I first loaded up on

  the ipad 2 with all I else and I of

  Sentinel izi as a headline and it

  I feel like there's the world is a

  better place right i mean it i did

  there's order and there's there's beauty

  and its I can't describe the feeling of

  actually seeing great typography on the

  blog I didn't I'd only really upgrade i

  did a couple other nips and tucks but

  only upgraded the typography the whole

  layout as the same but it feels to me

  whenever I see it feels like a brand-new

  side it it looks great on a non retina

  display a great fun and and one of the

  reasons and and I think it's super

  interesting the the hfj web fonts to my

  knowledge are only in its not publicly

  available the only three sites i know of

  that have the hfj web fonts are you

  Jason cocky and and proc Obama like

  that's pretty good company

  you cocky and and Obama yeah it's not

  like that it was one of the reasons why

  is that it is you talk to these guys

  talk to anybody who's working on

  distributing web fonts and it is really

  hard it is it's super simple it's as

  simple as linking to anything like in

  reg or a style sheet or anything on the

  web to get one working get web phones


  technically right and it is incredibly

  hard and painstaking and glyph by glyph

  requires all of this and drawn work

  yeah get them to look good

  everywhere meaning on the mac on iOS on

  Android and what's the the other the the

  OS four pcs from Microsoft alright is it

  but i totally don't know I've been

  ignoring microsoft were so remember that

  is not

  christ almighty it's on like ninety

  percent of all computers in the world

  anyway whatever its called

  it's really really hard to get web fonts

  that look good there because they use

  the all these different platforms use

  different anti-aliasing algorithms they

  have different software that actually

  renders the the outlines into bitmaps

  that helped push them to pixels on

  screen and these guys you know you do

  you think like me guys like me and you

  sweat the details enfants it's like the

  guys who actually make fonts like it you

  know it's amazing that they can even get

  out of bed because they you know they

  really really sweat the details on and

  they notice things like when one side of

  uppercase M is a half a pixel thicker

  than the other side when it's rendered

  on this browser on this platform and

  that's what's taking so long for all

  these guys to get you know to get these

  fonts out as web front-end the other

  thing for hf and Jade in particular i

  believe is that they're also just super

  concerned with with you know making sure

  that it's it's fairly license they don't

  want right fonts out in the open so

  right there really obsessive about that

  which i think is absolutely the right

  thing to do it's so easy to to steal

  upon if you will and did their work is

  mean as you just described it's

  painstaking work no one ever looks at

  fonts they do not see any of the work

  involved and actually pulling it off and

  who stares at a set of letters and goes


  note that ? is like a work of art in

  itself it times up by the entire

  character set you're talking about a

  massive amount of work and I and I think

  one of the things are tweaking and why

  it's not this is my opinion out there

  two more people is they're just making

  sure that it's it's rock-solid in terms

  of importance of protecting their their

  hard work right

  absolutely and but you really the bottom

  line now is that this this transition

  from only using the fonts that are

  available by default with the one they

  call the website fonts right you know

  their users like this list of like you

  know 15 fonts that are available on mac

  and windows and android or whatever i

  guess android doesn't have any font

  androids got like serif and sans serif

  or something like that was terrible but

  you know there's the website fonts that

  everybody is known from 1997 onward and

  it's like you know the bottom line is

  like you're either picking times

  verdanna or Georgia for fonz and now you

  know with the web fun thing you can pick

  any of these fonts and there's typekit

  which as you know like a whole bunch of

  funds from adobe and and other great

  indian browsers are type vendors and

  they look good on anywhere and it's

  because they've spent a lot of time to

  make sure they look at my god did they

  look good you look great on the retina

  display there's only there's only one

  complaint and I don't know if you have

  like a huge amount of people that are

  listening to us at this point but

  there's a load issue and it's not just a

  challenge a solution i've seen it

  elsewhere there's a and maybe it's a

  browser issue but there's a double load

  issue when you first load the page you

  first you get a render and then there's

  a second render it doesn't really line

  it doesn't really flow the page but when

  the fonts are actually loading so

  there's this eighth of a second half of

  a second where you get the correct

  geometry with like but all the bulleted

  mean that underlines and whatnot and the

  typefaces have it loaded yet and then it

  shows up the fast machine the slower

  I mean that faster the Machine the less

  of lag there that's the only thing that

  like bugs me is like this second or so

  we're still loading it doesn't come in

  as one doesn't come in as one just

  render the page

  minor thing you're going to notice

  you're going to be trying this on at

  some point and you're gonna be it's

  gonna be four in the morning and you're

  going to be like just about done you're

  going to go into an ipad 2 and you're

  reloading like how much load thing I'm

  just telling you now I'm saving you some


  i think it's i don't think it's a hnj

  thing I think it's a think it's a

  browser issue right now and there's a

  phrase for it like it's like a lingo

  it's like the flash before something i

  don't know i add something area so

  ridiculously early in the morning for me

  i cannot be but there-there it i know

  that i've seen it and every other people

  have commented on it and i also know

  that a big there's a big deal like in

  terms of the latency but switching from

  using built-in fonts to web phone right

  that it it really affects people who are

  on high latency connection yet like for

  example all of our friends down in New

  Zealand right which you know is like

  isolated and sort of has like a crappy

  connection to the rest of the entire

  internet right I i know that that

  depending on where your how you're

  serving your websites where you're

  getting them from that that delay

  between the initial page render and when

  the actual phone kicks in is is even

  worse down there

  I've had one complaint from folks about

  it i haven't had one there was some

  someone running some bizarre butu blah

  blah blah and that had a complete but

  everyone else is this was I was worried

  that there was some part of the

  demographic there was gonna be some

  technology some browser i wasn't able to

  support had one complaint and it was

  completely edge case a linux

  distribution which was satisfying for me

  I felt like I was a little bit ahead of

  the times but it's not it's not at all

  we've already blown past the hour mark

  and I promised bunch of people that the

  show would only be an hour long but

  right we're gonna we're gonna head

  towards the finish working towards the


  let me do the second sponsor read going

  in and then we've got a couple of other

  things i want to cover before before I

  let you go on and our second sponsor it

  this to me is is serendipity

  this is a delightful one-two punch of

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  it's an app for the iPad from from our

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  delight is a photo colorizing app for

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  now we've got an ipad app that's all

  about color photography on the ipad i

  feel lied to me that serendipity

  I mean that's this to me is is is a sign

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  photo delight lets you create a really

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  it's one of my that we just the wife and

  I just went to Yellowstone with the kids

  and literally eighty percent of time on

  the iphone is sitting there between the

  two of us battling on Instagram and

  seriously and she's better than I am by

  the way just so everyone knows but it's

  a it's because I've got a set of

  photo editing apps that we have and that

  in the goal for each of us is what

  combination of these apps and they're in

  their set of features can we use to like

  outdo the other person this is sitting

  in bed at nine doing photo processing

  right who would have imagined right I've

  got an entire page

  why don't you come home screen p.m. on

  my iphone that is just for diddling a

  picture that's gonna go to Instagram

  photo delight for the ipad no it means

  the highlights the new version is to

  point out let me just there's the

  highlights and we just read these

  highlights is great gorgeous UI for the

  retina display check totally agree it is

  absolutely pixel-perfect on the retina

  iPad in parentheses 3i they're

  intelligent smart touch ensuring that

  that the parts of the photo you touch



  the parts that get highlighted you get

  to color eyes photos of up to 20


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  the iphone ipad but that's what it

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  brush settings accidental stroke

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  the photobucket or by email you can send

  it anywhere you want and they've got a

  contest they've got a contest where

  there's a photo colorizing contest share

  a pic when a gift where a user can

  participate to win a twenty-dollar

  itunes gift card and you can find more

  details on their website at global delight calm and

  their app is called photo delight and

  you can find out more about the contest

  there and buy it by the app for the iPad

  and and I recommend it completely it's a

  great great app you know your wife your

  wife's Instagram account to me is almost

  like a fake Instagram account where it's

  like it's like the the like like that

  the account that Instagram would show in

  the appstore screenshots for what do you

  do with instagram because it's it's all

  of these like scenic landscapes right

  and and I I don't know what she does i

  don't know if if she's got like her own

  personal jet airplane but it's like all

  of a sudden it's like here's one where

  it's like trees and woods and mountains

  and Michael that's I think that's word

  and that's where the lobsters live right

  and the next one is like a desert

  landscape and the next one is like the

  ocean and the next one is is it it it

  they're all over the place

  I don't know how I don't know how it

  happened I don't know where how she's

  getting we live in Santa Cruz Mountains

  in California and there's lots of the

  the coasters I'm looking out the window

  right now I can see the Pacific Ocean

  we're in the middle of a redwood forest

  and there's lots of diversity so but the

  larger point is she's really fucking

  good at this

  which is incredibly annoying to me

  because you know we obviously like how

  many likes you get

  that a right and she's got a far less

  than me but ratio wise and just kicking

  my ass I'm kicking my ass and she's all

  its in i think i think i will I not

  she's not gonna hear this because I'm

  not gonna tell her about that i'm doing

  the show by the way if you can hear this

  is I think what she's good at and is in

  its it's an important thing is if you

  look at the rands the Rams instagrams I

  go for like high contrast and deep

  colors i think my composition is ok but

  she goes with subtle right and it's in

  its I don't do so because i feel like i

  need to like turn up the knobs and

  whatever direction as loud as she's very

  good at like finding a great great great

  look and then just make this subtle

  changes supposed to like throw down the

  Gotham or whatever you know intense you

  know saturation that randy was going for

  I i think that you and I are more or

  less on par photography quality-wise

  where you and I can take some pictures

  are like wow that's pretty cool for a

  picture you took with your phone right

  your wife though is that she takes

  picture of my cum on you took that with

  your iphone you've gotta be kidding

  you gotta be kidding me I i don't think

  i could get a picture like that out of

  my I 2500 dollar can 5d you're not

  telling her this is everyone else that's

  not too can't hear this because I'm but

  she does and and you can vouch for that

  she takes those pictures with the iphone

  it's all iphone she wasn't having it I

  do i do in my heart I do think she

  cheats i think because i think there's

  one there's one cheat

  she took a picture with the kids at one

  point I'm saying know that her pictures

  every single day look like all iphone

  sweater gun when it's going to talk

  about their you know what I want to talk

  about is a little bit on the website

  that you surprised that Apple isn't

  using web plans yet on the website

  yeah i'm loading it just to make sure

  that they didn't do it this morning

  because you know that would be funny you

  know it's you know I used to work at

  Apple um it's just about to ask you the

  convention you always have to ask after

  you have to double-check with anybody

  um yeah the website i gotta happen it's

  gotta happen eventually and the same is

  true for me though maybe it's just as

  surprising that i'm not using web fonts

  yet the plane with the website for me

  even when we were there is it's like in

  tonight my friends run it so I can you

  know rip on him cuz they're my friends

  but it's it's a beautiful beautiful

  sight is it is it's gorgeous sight but

  if you go look at it i mean there's this

  isn't an application if you go like view

  the source the amount of technology

  behind the site is pretty low like when

  you login to and answers you

  don't I mean you can go to store and

  that's an application and whatnot but

  it's it's it's always felt in beautiful

  to me but technology wise and i'm going

  to get and now who's gonna yell at me

  about this its indicated they didn't

  haven't been leaning forward in terms of

  in terms of the technology right

  it'sit's a static it's not a static site

  but it is a static site and it doesn't

  surprise me and I know people are gonna

  yell at me about that i would expect it

  at some point here but then thinking

  about Apple that you have to wonder it's

  like there's probably some reason they

  haven't done it like is it you know

  because web fonts are big and be a huge

  load up or whatever but there doesn't

  i'm not surprised not like I'm sitting

  at home i got haven't done well the

  things I can think of our that a clearly

  the everybody knows the homepage of any

  site is the most right and i think the

  homepage the actual homepage

  is way more important Apple than it is

  the most becomes hold it in the way that

  the first impression of anything is more

  important with apple like their stores

  are nice and if you just like going to

  the store and crawl into the corner and

  just examine where the floor hits the

  wall and look for dust bunnies you're

  not going to find it at all around you

  and the actual joint where the floor

  hits the wall is just looks as new you

  know maybe it's a ten-year-old apple

  store in your local mall and still looks

  brand new

  but the thing that's most important

  isn't the detail it's not like the

  actual wow if you actually look at the

  corner of this table where all the

  iphones are setup it still looks like a

  brand-new table right right on the


  things went off no scuff marks blah blah

  but the thing is most important is what

  it looks like from the outside when you

  first step in right right is that first

  impression and everything goes from


  well it seems true for the homepage of a

  website right and the homepage of apple

  com it's all images there is no text

  because they're actually it all is

  it's not rendered in web our web browser

  fonts you know like right

  luton it's all rendered in the Apple

  corporate myriad typeface but the way

  they do it is by everything's an image

  right i was just i was looking at the

  present were talking I was doing and

  that's one of the reasons that they

  don't have to go and find all of these

  headlines are actually images right and

  it's already notified and maybe you know

  you can

  there's a WEC session where they explain

  how they do it their way of serving

  retina images to retina you know quality

  displays and I sorry to interrupt your

  the Scorsese iphone ad what did you do

  you love it too jaded I know your fan so

  I love scorsese and i'm not a hater on

  these celebrity serie ads but i do feel

  though here's the thing about the

  Scorsese one that I feel I they're all

  little cheating because they all make

  Siri look a lot faster than Cirie

  actually is sure in the thing with

  Scorsese is Scorsese infamously is a

  super fast talker and thinker like he's

  a mile-a-minute talker that's that's his

  thing and that's Martin Scorsese and in

  addition to the fact that even if he

  were like it in like the the like a

  direct ethernet connection to the

  backbone of the best backbone of the

  ethernet in urbana illinois is not going

  to get this sort of response time from

  Cirie he's not in midtown Manhattan and

  you go to New York and not home

  I don't care if you're on verizon on

  curvy on AT&T I don't care what you're

  on the 3g service in midtown Manhattan

  it mid tahay is sketchy right like it it

  couldn't be more unrealistic in terms of


  it's actually like interacting with

  Syria that's the thing that gets me

  about the right to good and I thought it

  was not as clever as one it's a good ad

  in terms of what Siri could be or will

  be eventually but in terms of like what

  you would actually get from Cirie while

  you're in a cab and mid-cap it's like

  that commercial in real time would take

  90 minutes

  yeah it would be like a feature film and

  also the fast-talking beginning those

  you be getting those a I'm sorry Martin

  I don't you mean Bible it right because

  he's talking so that has right I I

  thought it was kinda interesting that

  they gave a white iphone because i think

  it's very clear that's because the cab

  is a dark atmosphere and sort of wearing

  a dark thing and it actually i think is

  I think Martin Scorsese if he has an

  iphone really carries one he's a black

  iphone guy totally agree with that are

  you black or white right now all you


  come on oh yeah I can't believe you had

  to ask what do you do i do you i'm not

  sure about you you might be a white

  iphone i am a white iphone and i think i

  got inception down that too because i

  had black twice and and I'm like a new

  phone i'm gonna get the white but then i

  went back and i think these ads are all

  changed now after after they announced

  the most recent iphone and i went back

  and look at the advertising and i'm

  pretty sure that the the White was more

  prominently featured and now i'm just

  sitting there weathering I've gotten

  figure out whether i got manipulate or

  not into getting a welcoming I just

  wanted a change of scene in the white is

  beautiful by the way but I I'm feeling

  manipulated because i think they really

  pushed it and i think that is one of the

  reasons that I actually decided to make

  the switch on the most recent i'm going

  back to black its that's that that's the

  only one for me this is an old story and

  i'm sure i've told this before like that

  long ago episode of the talk show i've

  probably told it to you personally

  because you hung out with me and my wife

  if it's it's a good story is that when

  the iphone 4 1st was announced

  I and my wife and I were both want

  hey I get one every year she was

  definitely on pace for a new phone and I

  said you should get the white one

  I've seen it because i was at the press

  event where r WC where they announced it

  and I say

  it's beautiful I don't want it I'm gonna

  get black I get black everything I just

  if anything is available in black I just

  get in black anything cars bones if

  there's a black option i just get black

  that went to the right and i said but

  trust me this thing is beautiful the

  white one is great and then we're gonna

  solve this problem we've had since the

  iphone came out where there's two phones

  on the kitchen counter right in their

  identical and we don't you gotta turn it

  on to see you know see whose is whose

  and you're never going to accidentally

  pick up the you know each other's phone

  and she said okay I'm in and then of

  course the white iphone infamously took

  apple like 10 months learn and by the

  time it actually came out you know

  there's the rumor was that there was a

  new iphone coming and that actually

  turned out to be false because it didn't

  come out the iphone 4s didn't come out

  until october but it was a real source

  of of marital stress in in my life

  because I got blamed for this

  I'm sure she didn't bring that up and

  doesn't continue to bring that up like

  every week hour or so she ended up not

  getting a new phone until the forest

  came out but she did get white and in

  fact though she does love it and loves

  the white but still I I get blamed for

  like the lost 18 months of her having

  the janky old 3gs on but yeah it's I

  think the weight is great but that it's

  funny it is funny too though to think

  that it then it's like one of those

  things are like at the time it was

  amusing and we thought about it and then

  we've sort of like forgotten it but like

  mighty Apple couldn't ship a white

  iphone yeah i still think that's one of

  the most interesting things to happen in

  the last 10 years like this company that

  we sort of think can do no wrong and as

  you know infinitely powerful couldn't

  ship a white iphone that they were

  apparently convinced that they could you

  know we're ready to ship two weeks later

  in june to 2010 I wasn't there when I

  was happening but um I mean it feels

  right to me it feels like I mean they

  remember the rumors they're rumors were

  that when we got hot like you start to

  see discoloration

  this amazing to me that that feels very

  apple right they went to the shaking big

  period or whatever that like last month

  or so of like a qualification and they

  found that there was a slight

  discoloration or whatever it was

  this is actually i think is very apple

  which is like they're like you know we

  don't ship crap right and right after

  three months if you're seeing a little

  discoloration where it's hot it's like

  that is in every single phone is going

  to be returned at that point so this is

  like something like that the other the

  other room and maybe it was a little bit

  of column a and a little bit of column


  I thought the other rumor was that there

  was like light leakage that the bike

  ride the camera right so like photos

  wouldn't look as good because there was

  light coming in to hit the center that

  wasn't coming in from the lens or

  something like that

  yeah but whatever you know so my out my

  guess is maybe it was like all of the

  above right was discoloration and there

  was some light leakage and that day

  because there's a I like if you look at

  the schematics the white one has I get

  different grill around on camera but you

  I'm sure you notice this because you've

  got friends you know you you did work

  there you've got friends who are there

  is that the one of the most interesting

  things is wet and I noticed this when I

  was there for the antenna gate event

  when they had the the hey hey you better

  come out here we gotta deal with this

  antennagate situation and that was a

  special press event on campus had been

  while so it was like august i think 2010

  like two months after the iphone for it

  shipped and two months where the only

  one that ship was the black one and you

  go to the campus and you see employees

  walking around and half of them had

  white iphone right and it was like

  you're in this bizarro universe on

  campus where the white iphone existed

  and it was like whoa

  the only other place that I had seen was

  on the the table where at wec where they

  add the one set up for the press but you

  went to the campus and employees had

  them like this lala land where where's

  you know stuff that isn't available to

  the public people just walk around with


  on one of the things i speculated on in

  my piece earlier this week on the retina

  macbook pro is what font Apple might use

  as the system fun for Mac os10 if they

  switch from Lucinda lucida grande grande

  grande Grande google could all grande'

  lucida grande Grande i don't know i

  immediately thought that I should ask

  you since you're gonna shoot you in a

  few of you feel for that even a opinion

  on that you know I thought about it I

  was thinking about last night that I

  don't know what it is but the thing

  about it is you know i think it's i

  think it's going to be some vatika

  variant but um and my opinion is it's

  more the intent of what it's there it's

  it needs to be very readable and just

  very ignore aliff you will write it just

  has to be really you don't want it you

  don't want to see it right it has to be

  something which there is an elegance to

  it there is there is a pirate ability to

  it has a lot of the things that

  characteristic of Lucinda's but wait it

  just it isn't zero flash right because

  this is the this is the system phone

  right it's going to be something which

  it's just it's vanilla beautifully


  what do you think I my guess is it's

  gonna be helped that they're going to

  switch to help that ago and i do think i

  actually do that i had this is like this

  is an article that is in my drafts

  folder i like and it's probably two

  sentences and a bunch of gibberish words

  but next thing about all is that I do

  think i think that one of the most

  interesting design decisions

  Apple has ever made in 30 years of

  corporate history is the choice of

  helvetica as the system font for iOS

  right because helvetica is sort of the

  most obvious font that they could have

  chosen right it is a great face it is

  you know it's super famous it's maybe

  you know I it's the font that actually

  has a documentary named after it

  it's a font that people who don't even

  really think about fonts have at least

  heard of even if they can't identify it

  I'm but what sort of what makes

  helvetica so famous is that

  it is so neutral right right

  internets it's almost the non fund like

  I remember when I first got a mac

  thinking and I didn't really even know

  what its like before I really became

  even informed about typography but I was

  intrigued by the font menu and that i

  could do is select all go to the font

  menu and make what i just wrote look

  different and I remember thinking that

  are actually not even thinking that it

  was sort of a of course it has to be

  this way that of course in any word

  processing document when you make

  command n and make a new document and

  just start typing on course it's going

  to be 12-point helvetica right because

  that's the font that you haven't chosen

  a fund that's the okay you're just

  starting and this is neutral and we're

  not going to assume that this is

  supposed to feel friendly we're not

  going to assume it's supposed to feel

  formal was conditional it's just the

  words right and it's America nobody ever

  says it's a great fun but nobody ever

  says wow that is an interesting choice

  for a font like you are a brilliant

  designer for having chosen helvetica but

  that's what they chose for iOS and you

  know any other thing about choosing that

  for iOS is that helvetica is you know

  it's not free you know is I think

  linotype owns the license to it but it's

  certainly widely available on any other

  company and in fact you can see there's

  a whole bunch of android phones that

  that it doesn't ship as part of the

  default android distribution but the the

  add-ons from companies like Samsung and

  HTC inevitably use helvetica for like

  the home screen widgets you know the

  clock and the date and time and the

  weather and stuff like that because you

  know it's automatic everybody can have

  access to America but it is i mean

  that's the that's the point about a

  really good face is I mean unless you're

  doing something you know comics & Z and

  then horrific like that

  the point is it needs to kind of stay

  out of the way and when I go look at the

  web fonts on Iran's and repose right now

  it's they still give me joy but at the

  end of the day I want them to get out of

  the way so that people can get to the

  message you know so it's there's there's

  that balance you want to you want to

  strike of highly readable but you know

  but also just get the hell out of the

  way so i can get the words the knock

  against helvetica is that or one of the

  knocks against it especially for uses a

  system font is that it's a font that not

  only is it hard to distinguish certain

  similar characters in some cases it's

  actually like impossible without the cut

  surrounding context and the best you

  know famous example is capital I

  lowercase L in the numeral one right now

  the one in Helvetica is a little

  different but like capital I in a

  lowercase l the only difference between

  them in America is that the capitalized

  ever so slightly taller but they're just

  straight bars with no Sarah for glyph

  for anything at all and you know a lot

  of people feel very strongly that like a

  system font i should have some kind of

  distinguishing characteristic for all of

  those characters you know that the

  elders should have a little bendy the

  lowercase L should have a little bendy

  thing at the bottom the upper case I

  should have the bars the crossbar and

  right and have erica has none of those

  things but god I love helvetica I

  wouldn't i wouldn't mind at all of the

  Mac os10 switch to help erica can happen

  in some point something I know what it

  is but it's one of those things where

  the retina and makes all the difference

  in the world right there on pre retina

  displays it's not that vehicle looks bad

  but it doesn't look great

  yeah right whereas on the retina display

  it's like all yeah that's you know

  that's the helvetica i love it's my

  favorite thing to one of my favorite

  things to do on the site when I landed

  the the web fonts is to pinch and it

  doesn't make them huge and make the

  article huge we're going to see word by

  word and justjust Chris

  just gorgeous very satisfying

  it's so different it's so different

  yeah and you know and and for me you

  know and it really is it's it's overdue

  and I don't even have a good excuse for

  why I haven't switched to some sort of

  web monitoring fireball other than then

  what's the word laziness

  yeah but I you know the body fun during

  fireballs vidhana at 11px and I chose

  that I chose that fun and and size in

  2002 at a time when the overwhelming

  majority of daring fireball readers not

  just on windows which at the time was

  actually a majority of readers but even

  on Mac we're using mac OS 9 not Mac os10

  on a mac OS 9 it wasn't anti-aliased

  right it was a pure pixel fund like I

  picked that font and size at a time when

  anti-aliasing wasn't even enabled except

  for the sliver of readers who were

  already on Mac os10 right which was

  varied 2002 was actually really really

  small number of people

  ah and it just doesn't hold up right

  like I link to the egg have you noticed

  you go to ikea your ikea guy you know

  everything I know can't gather but you

  know that you know the brand right

  hell yeah and you know that they

  switched from you like their own custom

  version of future great fund


  to verdanna like their catalogs and

  their signage are all printed in for

  Donna you know this i'm looking at it

  right now

  yeah and it really looks horrible yeah I

  print resolution I and everybody nobody

  nobody has a good explanation for why

  they did this is it there's a

  convenience store / gas station chain in

  the greater philadelphia area called

  wall just wanted wha can spot me wa wa

  ok I everybody listening most people

  listening are exactly like you think 11

  and then the Philadelphia area listeners

  are all like I can't believe he had to

  spell you know it's a 7-eleven is type

  thing but with the like you know just

  nicer it's a lot nicer go to 7-eleven on

  but they use i often gas up the car at a

  wawa they used for Donna like on their

  print stuff you know how like when you

  get when you're buying gas there's

  always an ad for something right

  sandwiches they're selling inside or the

  slurpees or whatever the hell they got a

  use for Donna and every time I pump gas

  there I noticed when they use for Donna

  and I think my god does that look like

  shit at print resolution right that's

  what verdanna looks like to me on a

  retina display right just looks like

  you've you've chosen a font that is

  never meant to be output at this

  resolution you know now you're using you

  ever see anybody who uses Chicago has a

  print font know the the I just see that

  every once in a while you'll see like a

  store something that is like a sign and

  they picked Chicago and it looks so bad

  as a print fun

  ya know I haven't point whenever I'm

  walking around New York City it's it's

  the notice lots of people like to his

  Instagram it's just that the font

  travesties that are out there it's it's

  shocking to me or as bad as trebuchet

  looks on the web right when somebody

  princess sign using trebuchet

  oh god it just kills I get diets like

  needles in my eyes

  bad fonts that's the thing about the

  retina display is good fonts looks so

  good and bad fonts looks so much worse

  yeah you look worse than they do before

  reading this place on Crede right I've

  got one more thing

  ok go and that's one more thing that's a

  piece that you wrote on random pose

  right just a few weeks ago

  mm you wrote about Apple's thing where

  exactly is it that's my question for you

  is it is the one more thing from a

  keynote is it an apple thing or was it a

  Steve thing

  oh you know i did research into the

  piece and i found that let the YouTube

  video that someone just amalgamated

  altogether and i will put that i will

  put that YouTube in the show notes right

  everybody to enjoy and just gets its

  it's an amalgamation of Steve Jobs one

  more things from keynotes were asked 15

  years but the question that you asked

  that I don't know the answer to is did

  anyone say it in a keynote before that

  and I don't know you certainly shaped it

  though right i mean if you go look at

  the video you can see you can see him go

  from like it's this it's this total

  moment of its it's the showmanship of

  him going from like oh it's like walking

  off stage right you know and he's like

  we're all done and he turns around and

  goes oh wait a minute there's one more

  thing and that's how it really started

  and you've seen this too but it really

  started with him like literally trying

  to convince us that he almost forgot to

  introduce this world-changing thing and

  it over the years it's sort of refined

  into sort of a a more it wasn't that big

  of a surprise it was just those three

  words that they actually that they

  actually did you always were wondering

  right you're always wondering whether

  that thing was going to happen at the at

  the end of the of the key nobody and it

  didn't always and when it did it was

  usually something that was it was

  compelling whether the airport express

  or forget all the things were there but

  the question that i have is i think it

  is a Steve thing is my opinion I don't

  think I think they will never do it

  again because it is his thing and if

  they do that would be that's

  that is made significant milestone in

  the post Steve world if they actually go

  say one more thing because it is him

  it's really it is literally a sign of

  his love his style and then the showman

  that he was and they did and then you

  know it was certain when he died it was

  certainly an unusual situation and

  running that unusual disables a unique

  situation for apple in its corporate

  history that there's nobody else whose

  death going forward and make their

  company could still be around and still

  thriving a hundred years from now

  absolutely and they're still never going

  to be anything like the death of Steve

  Jobs in terms of what it means to the

  company and and they had to do something

  and so they did something unusual and

  they had you know they had that picture

  of Bryon sort of tribute on the homepage

  of apple com for a long time after and

  I'd right I months i think it was months

  yeah I was it was really a long time I

  mean some you know he died in october is

  a talker i actually don't remember

  exactly what I think was october and I i

  think they had that up on the homepage

  through the holidays

  yeah I mean and you know that's it

  particularly big deal because the Apple

  as big as it is is still

  disproportionately a holiday quarter

  company still always did I don't think

  it's ever going to not be their biggest

  quarter of the year

  absolutely and they spent the whole

  quarter with their homepage being a

  tribute to the you know deceased founder

  Steve Jobs ah and then you know now it's

  it's you know once that period was over

  now they just don't talk about Steve

  right right but I feel like when they

  have the events it's impossible for

  anybody and I feel like years from now

  five years from now when they're

  introducing you know the the iphone 12

  or the 11s I don't know what that are

  going to call it but whatever whatever

  they're going to call it

  we're still going to think with the

  beginning of the event when the music

  stops where and somebody walks out

  you're going to think

  god I wish that were Steve

  absolutely.aah and that's a tough thing

  for you know for Tim Cook and Phil

  Schiller and everybody was gonna do it

  is that it's never nobody is ever going

  to stop missing Steve at those events

  because that's when we had any kind of

  you know sauce with jobs right that's

  when his presence was palpable is on the

  events and i think i'm with you that I I

  feel like it would be nice and maybe

  they could do it you know and if anybody

  can pull it off I think it's Schiller

  sure but if they ever did the first time

  they did that one more thing right in an

  event going forward without him it it's

  almost as though it's almost as as

  explicit not even implicit but explicit

  a shout out to steve jobs as if they

  actually just said hey and we'd like to

  just throw up a you know just you know

  it's been a year since he died here's a

  picture of them would just like to say a

  few words about Steve Jobs is working on

  for a year which are not going to do

  that what if they do one more thing I it

  would be if you're going to spend that

  let's let's play like if you can

  actually because there would be a cost

  to doing that because i think they do

  you think it is his his line but if you

  were going to do that the window but I

  would do if I was which are i'm not but

  when you would have to be something of a

  magnitude that would be significant but

  it also have to be this is something

  that Steve would have wanted right if

  it's because otherwise it's not

  something amazing if it's not something

  huge then you're wasting that right

  it has it would have to be a happy call

  out to him is this what i would but i

  would think it's like it happened it's

  this feels like a this is a thing that

  Steve would want to build right because

  like you and answered exactly like you

  mentioned and i think i've talked about

  this before that it was the fact that it

  was way more powerful because it wasn't

  every event right or even predictable

  right you know and i think what I've

  mentioned before is that it gets into

  like behavioral psychology where it's

  this a random reinforcement schedule is

  actually the most powerful way right to

  get somebody hooked on something and I

  know I've mentioned this before but that

  you know like if you have I think it's

  called a skinner box where you you put a

  rat in a box and give the rat a little

  button to push to get food and if if

  it's like you set up a schedule where

  every other time every odd time that it

  hits the button a piece of food comes


  ah and then you stop and you just unhook

  the button and then you matter how many

  times the rat push the button no food

  comes out the rat will give up after

  like I don't know

  567 pushes right and and with different

  schedules the rat will keep pushing the

  dead button after you unhook it longer

  and longer but if the original schedule

  is random the rat will never stop

  pushing the button

  this is true I swear on my bulimia is

  one of the most interesting things about

  psychology and I feel like that's the

  one more thing right for us is that

  three years could go by right now and

  its dominance 2015 and Michael op is

  back on the talk show with with john

  gruber and we're going to talk about it

  hasn't been one more thing since Steve

  Jobs alive right and you'll come on and

  we'll talk about it when someone maybe

  they'll do it next time right and will

  be kind of hope that's when I feel like

  that's the thing that makes it so

  interesting and so it's one of those you

  you writing about that made me so

  jealous because I was a god damn i wish

  i wrote that was really one of those

  like i really wish i had written that

  piece because it really kind of gets to

  the heart of what makes apple such an

  interesting company is that you think

  about and you know that they think about


  right right and they wouldn't use it

  like they would not take if they do it

  they wouldn't take it lightly and it's

  it's it's a little bit off topic but

  it's like it's one of the things i'm

  reading all the press about the samsung

  cases i know i know about there anymore

  and I don't you know and wasn't involved

  in these conversations but you gotta

  know one of the things they said hey

  listen we're gonna go we're going to go

  to town on this case against Samsung

  is we're gonna have to we're gonna have

  to open the kimono a little bit and show

  them a little bit secret sauce and I

  don't know how you quantify that I don't

  know how you measure that but it's it's

  you're seeing prototypes you're seeing a

  little bit more how Apple works and they

  don't want that at all

  they don't want of course they don't

  want that at all and that's that's the

  thing i think i think it pains him to

  have to like say well we have this room

  and this room that's everyone's always

  known about was never been actually

  confirmed when sits around a table and

  they made whole prototypes and they

  don't want to share that at all because

  it's a costume it's it's it's it's the

  mystique is a little bit less mysterious

  and that's a good line I don't know but

  yes the thing they're wrestling with all

  right like you know it is i think it is

  very much analogous to the the adage

  that a magician never explains the loser

  ex work around that you don't talk about

  it that it does take something away but

  I do think exactly agree with you

  completely though that it's absolutely

  they are they were completely aware of

  that going into this lawsuit where they

  feel that it's worth it

  it is absolutely absolutely not the case

  that they just blindly in anger wanted

  to sue samsung and then all of a sudden

  a year later like oh shit we're screwed

  we've got to reveal these prototypes

  right like they knew that all of that by

  completing their event and completely

  see that as being worth the risk for you

  know whatever competitive reasons i

  could see it then the thing that gets me

  think about the one more thing too is

  that this event that is rumored for next

  month right because the idea the rumors

  are so strong that it's going to have

  both an iphone and a new ipad this

  smaller ipad thing makes me think that

  one or the other of them like maybe the

  event is about the iphone and the ipad

  is one more thing and that you're like

  getting towards the end it seems like

  the wrapping up and then I feel like I

  can just imagine myself in the audience

  taking my notes thinking oh shit i've

  written Hollis shit wondering more about

  this iPad Mini or error nano whatever

  they're going to call it and they are

  not going to announce it and you know

  there's one

  for that site you know grouper was wrong

  right and I start getting that flop

  sweat of ocean I've got a right and I

  was wrong article and then one more

  thing right and i can imagine if i can

  imagine being there in the audience

  doing it and I can also imagine being at

  home following along on all the sites

  that live longer and stuff and having

  that same feeling like oh man everybody

  was wrong with the ipad mini and then

  all the sudden there's Dan more in on

  Mac worldcom saying one more thing

  schiller one more thing I'm gonna go

  with no I think it's his I mean I've

  been wrong many times I don't have a tag

  one I do want to go on the record on the

  name if there is another ipad coming out

  I you seem you're saying many and air I

  feel like there's there's exclusive

  names relative to the platforms and i

  think many and air are all macbook and I

  think blurring that over from that over

  to the ipad isn't gonna happen so no I

  don't love the name if there is one but

  that feels more like that is the realm

  of more of the the portable devices not

  portable but the you know i'm talking

  about the iOS devices so that's going on

  the record there all right you're gonna

  record that the reason I don't think

  they'll use nano is that nano to me and

  his boys small smallness yeah and I

  don't think smallness is the is where

  they're going I think it's a in this and

  lightness i would go i agree i would go

  with new word before air or many ok

  alright one more thing just before we go

  yeah if they do if Apple does ever do

  whether it's next month whether it's a

  year from now whether it's three years

  from now if they ever do another one

  more thing in a presentation who who

  does it and I think it's you that I

  think it's a binary choice i think it's

  either Schiller or to Tim Cook I think

  it's got item with you on the shoulder I

  think Schiller I think she'll be just

  watching Schilling started so

  uncomfortable years ago he was sort of

  the court jester type and he is no

  longer that at all obviously he's thank

  you so much better

  speaking of much better presenter that

  he was 5 10 years ago but and he may be

  able to do it with more Flair but it's

  the CEO right i think i think you're

  going to do it it's got to be Tim Cook

  and it and again i don't think that they

  do it because i think it is a Steve

  thing but in the CEO has to announce it

  even though tim is Tim doing products i

  can't even down right now

  well he hasn't he to my knowledge he is

  not done a product he does he sort of

  talks about the company at the beginning

  and introduce the event and he does the

  wrap up at the end but he hasn't done a

  product right i would go with Tim I

  think I think shoulder are

  constitutionally could totally do it but

  again if you're gonna do this if you

  believe my theory that it's going to be

  and if they're good at it that's going

  to be they're gonna spend it in a very

  careful way and it's something that

  comes from Tim alright people always say

  I should have people on the show who

  disagree with rather than directly i'm

  going to disagree i'm going to say that

  if they ever do it it's going to be sure

  not cook and the reason that hook is the

  one who has to sort of tow this line of

  being the guy in charge i'm now the head

  motherfucker in charge but I'm not

  trying to be steve jobs right that's a

  very strange and difficult and totally

  do not want to be that in that man shoes

  sure line to hugh and i feel that him

  doing one more thing would come across

  as I think i'm steve jobs now whereas

  Schiller could pull it off and make it

  seem like look Steve always did this but

  it's an apple thing nasty thing but then

  it's smaller right then it's nothing not

  the chiller is not amazing and great i

  agree because it's coming out of

  somebody who's not the CEO exactly right

  again i think that i think we can

  disagree but I think that I my god as

  they just don't do it again there's a

  certain i think there are certain things

  set of things that we could we could

  debate on what this list is that are

  sacred and no longer there

  one of them being steve jobs but it

  the other things are associated with him

  that feels like one of them right it

  feels like part of his show

  I mean as things were as things were as

  he was getting worse you could see it in

  the present you can see used to be just

  a Steve Jobs shown there was

  occasionally someone from Sony up there

  just embarrassing all of us but they

  started to kind of build out the crew

  and no force dollars they're more and

  there's more folks it started getting to

  that world of of of the sort of the cast

  of characters as opposed to just him

  um that's the currents in the current

  status quo but it's a to me it's just

  it's that's that's his and again if

  they're gonna spend it better be

  something big

  totally agree Michael op thank you for

  being here

  I want to like want to thank our

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