The Talk Show

10: The Next Big Thing, with MG Siegler


  it seems nuts though you're saying that

  there's hotels that that have Wi-Fi

  access that you can't do on microphone i

  got an iphone right because the pop-up

  thing because like there's a lot of them

  out there that want you still to watch

  some kind of you know either add or

  click on something that requires a

  pop-up and the iphone doesn't doesn't

  like that too much and then not to

  mention all the ones that are not just

  tailored at all for a mobile experience

  and so you know it's either a

  combination of of quick zooming so you

  can get it and hit a button before it

  seems back out because it's just

  completely not tailored I saw the i saw

  one where you you had to go through how

  to click to it terms and agreements

  thing in a webview and I don't know how

  they programmed it but it was a tiny

  tiny little button and why don't know

  how they did it but everytime you pinch

  zoom down the iphone it would instantly

  go back out to the full-size yeah yeah

  I've seen the affectionate it's an

  unsuitable webpage and so it leaves you

  like the the tiniest touch target in the

  history of times like this one pixel on

  the ipad 2 3

  if you have to get your touch centered

  on it was crazy

  yeah you really would need sandpaper to

  whittle down your fingers at that point

  so we were recording today is a tuesday

  july 24 but we're not releasing the show

  until tomorrow and that will be after

  the mountain lion embargo so we will

  talk we can talk now online

  yes we can I because everybody we're all

  signed up on the NDA and and everything

  like that but before we get to that I

  was thinking we should talk about

  Marissa Mayer is a mayor Meyer and it's

  uh it's Meyer might even though it's

  spelled like mayor right so i have never

  guessed one of those things where I

  don't think I've ever talked about on

  the show and if i don't talk about

  somebody I don't really know how to

  pronounce your name so it end job i

  think i mean i think this is a good move

  for yahoo i really i don't see how they

  could possibly have gotten a better a

  better CEO yeah it was totally out of

  left field i mean it makes sense in

  hindsight but no one was really thinking

  that and i'm not sure exactly why but I

  mean no one was

  there's no rumor there was no whisper

  about it you know nothing thinking that

  this was a possibility i guess it's just

  because yahoo has had such a string of

  kind of either boring hires or like you

  know kinda obvious things and and there

  was reports that the ross levinsohn guy

  who's the guy who was interim CEO was

  just going to get the job and they were

  kind of going through the motions you

  know that are viewing a few that's what

  i expected to I did you read I think

  Steven leavey had a good post i think

  was yesterday for Wired talking about

  Marissa Mayer's role at Google where you

  know obviously she was there for a long

  time in her role evolved over the time

  she was in charge search and then most

  recently she was in charge of kind of

  local stuff but she also started and ran

  the program called a p.m. which is like

  associate product manager I think no I

  didn't I didn't see this

  so basically she was running what is

  effectively inside Google leader a

  leadership training program and they had

  a few hundred people go throughout go

  through this under her through you know

  the decade or so that she was running it

  and these people include like Brett

  Taylor who's the guy who eventually

  would go on to become CTO facebook they

  have a guy who's in charge of of chrome

  not son dar try another guy who's just

  under him who's a kind of spearheading

  that program and he's the one who

  actually took over the APM project but

  anyway the long story short is that

  Steven Levy writes this

  pretty good post suggesting that marissa

  meyer is even more uh better equipped to

  handle this

  this Yahoo CEO job because she really

  trained the cream of the crop at Google

  and now has these great relationships

  they have all stated touch their

  supposedly all very close they would go

  on these long trips together in him and

  for one of them leaving was embedded you

  know odd somewhere in in Africa I think

  or Eastern Europe and they would do

  these once a year and they would all

  form these tight bonds and they stay in

  touch after all these years most of

  those people obviously since left Google

  but now of course mark meyer still has

  those relationships that she could

  potentially bring in if she could even

  bring in you know five or six of those

  people that's that's potentially huge

  right there for you

  who I have I've long had the sense that

  not that she was on the outside google

  but that and and other people have said

  you know that she had like a glass

  ceiling but like she wasn't going there

  was no we're above that google that she

  was going to get to move up to right

  kind of get the sense that she hasn't

  been as influential as she was in the


  yeah it seems like the early days you

  know she was whatever the tenth employee

  or something like that and you know

  everyone is probably doing a lot of work

  back then and and through the time when

  there were a hundred employees and she

  was you know one of the senior people

  and she was in charge of you know

  there's the talk that she was in charge

  of the design aesthetic and all that

  kind of stuff and then is they slowly

  transition from two more than a search

  engine I think her role just kept

  getting diminished and diminished and

  then finally whenever it was a couple

  years ago or something when they move

  her often who knows if they moved her

  off she asked to be moved off she's been

  working on it for so long but moved off

  of search which is of course the bread

  and butter of google still you know it

  seemed from the outside that you know

  they were just decided to go in a

  different direction and it was pretty

  telling that they didn't give her an SVP

  position even though you know her

  seniority you know they had someone else

  running local ok Jeff Huber i believe

  was elevated to SVP of kind of local and

  commerce above her so yeah I think the

  writing was on the wall that she was

  eventually going to leave and it's

  surprising that they didn't elevate her

  to an SVP status but who knows

  yeah you never know what the inside

  politics are but from the outside I

  always thought that that she was of the

  google that i like best

  you know and i think that like it and

  it's also it's the sort of thing like

  with Apple where you just you take some

  of this stuff for granted that it's as

  simple as it is but I think like the

  fact that the google homepage is just a

  search field and two buttons

  yep I you can say well anybody could do

  that but i think that by I can't even

  imagine how many times she had to say no

  to things that other people at Google

  wanted to do on that that homepage

  oh yeah i mean i remember you know every

  since 10 years five years everyone keeps

  just imagine if they had like a giant

  display at behind you know behind Google

  right on you know how many

  tens of millions or hundreds of millions

  of dollars without generating revenue

  every single year but they just didn't

  do it and yeah yeah most accounts that

  was that was her job and her you know

  her insight to not mess up that main

  experience and that's what makes me

  optimistic about her being a good CEO

  for yahoo is that she obviously has that

  ability to say no I mean that's like the

  famous Steve Jobs quote that he's

  prouder of the things they said no to

  the things they actually said yes to

  because that's what that's what keeps

  the company focus

  yeah and i would say along those lines

  you know I've met her a number of times

  I don't know her all that well but you

  know we've counted from here from time

  to time dr. onstage a few times i will

  say that you know my impression of her

  is that she's extremely opinionated

  which i think is great because she has

  you know things that she likes and she

  has her own ideas of what she wants to

  do and she's gonna get them done because

  that's just who she is and that's you

  know all the accounts from people who

  worked under her at Google will say the

  same thing it's just you know she's not

  wishy-washy she doesn't really have any

  understanding of what she's trying to do

  she knows what she wants to do and she

  goes for it and you know that's awesome

  right ideally i think the best type of

  leaders have extremely strong opinions

  loosely held right like another eligible

  right in other words like with--like

  with Tim Cook talking about Steve Jobs

  that guy had the strongest opinions of

  anybody in the world but he might change

  them tomorrow any upright right and

  those people often you know kind of like

  that at the time they make it you know

  upset or whatever in an argument they it

  seems like they always kind of fall back

  on the idea that they love it if someone

  can stand up to them and can actually

  make their case to change their mind

  about it that's like the best thing in

  the world for those people right i mean

  i think all I i often think because I

  mean and and it's just one of those like

  ways that everything comes full circle a

  lot of times is that you know famously

  almost infamously yahoo had the chance

  to acquire google in the early days

  yep and yep and by you know did not

  didn't quite offer enough money in

  never happen but i think it's i think

  it's always been pretty clear that

  Google held up yahoo is a look that's

  they made mistakes that we don't want to

  make yeah yeah and that helped them no

  doubt right on it and we have it's funny

  because I still think of Google is the

  upstart and yahoo is the old guard but

  in you know by now by today's date

  they're actually relatively the same age

  it wasn't yahoo was informed that much

  earlier than google right it just that

  those first few years of yahoo were the

  explosive years of yeah you

  still here though I like you know I

  talked to start ups every once in a

  while who either cut some kind of deal

  with yahoo or do something with them

  where they kind of run a test on their

  homepage and it's still an insane amount

  of crushing traffic that anyone would be

  happy to get and that's why you know

  that's why it's great that someone can

  actually steer that in the right

  direction there's no question that they

  still have a lot of people going there i

  think what is it now it's not the it's

  not the number one most trafficked

  website anymore it might be two maybe


  I don't know what it is but its its way

  up there still right and i think that's

  an opportunity I think that will be the

  first thing that you see it change about

  i think that there and I don't think any

  previous CEO yahoo is really left a

  personal and like wow that that there's

  a new CEO in charge of yahoo look at

  yeah that's definitely true and i don't

  know i think that should be the first

  thing that she does is make some changes

  that is there's a new sheriff

  in town and it's there so if there's

  focus at this company she should put up

  did you see that picture circulating

  around or it's the Obama hope picture

  but it's of versus a face know

  supposedly being split up last around

  Yahoo's campus right now okay I i talked

  to a friend who works at flickr and they

  are definitely some optimism

  I'm excited for that I mean I just I it

  was it randomly i logged onto flickr for

  the first time i did i was so bad that I

  had to reset my yahoo password and even

  remember what it was

  so that's how bad yahoo wasn't in my

  head so i reset my password and login to

  my flickr account and it was expired I

  think it just expired like six months

  ago signed up for it too

  here you know rite aid plan uh so I'm

  excited to see if they can you know

  really not only turn the a brain around

  but all these sub-brands I really would

  like to use flickr for something cool

  again and and I'd like to sign up for my

  program i mean they have tens of

  thousands of pictures just saved

  it's really nice that they actually

  don't delete them you know even if you

  let your pro account expire they only

  let you see a hundred of them but they

  keep them all around just in case so

  that's great yeah there's definitely

  some opportunities there i also think

  yeah what do you think she's going to do

  with the with Microsoft deal in terms of

  obviously being powers or search now

  they handle like some of the front and

  stuff you know they do some different

  things and being does itself with search

  but how do you think that shall approach

  that well that's what I'd I honestly

  don't know and I'm not close enough

  I don't you know that i could see it

  going one of two ways I could see it

  where that gets abandoned in yahoo and

  google sort of you know because of the

  personal relationships becomes semi


  yep I or if it's bad blood and maybe it

  goes the other way you know I and yeah

  they you know in the in the initial

  stories of her leaving you know there

  was one i think it was in New York Times

  report that said I you know my mayor

  called Larry Page by phone that day to

  resign on the spot and shit you know

  there's no two weeks notice or anything

  she's called by phone but of course

  Larry page's voice issues or whatever so

  maybe he wasn't around who knows you

  know what the deal is with that but it

  seems like there's a little bit of bad

  blood between them but you know who

  knows maybe that's reading too much into

  it but I think you're absolutely right i

  think it really that kind of is a is

  it's a pretty major factor in what she

  ends up doing you know maybe maybe she

  just looks at the numbers and realize

  that the microsoft deal is too good to

  kind of you know dissolve it's

  interesting that when Microsoft was

  trying to my yahoo few years ago

  remember obviously yahoo pushback

  heavily and they were looking for anyone

  to help them including Google and at one

  point they had that kind of at least it

  you know had a handshake agreement to do

  some sort of similar ever

  tising search deal with google that they

  ended up doing with Microsoft but they

  had to drop it because the government

  officially look into it but they'll all

  indications were that the government was

  going to look into it but there was also

  because yahoo is by far the number two

  search engine at the time to google and

  microsoft was a non-player now Microsoft

  is number two and i don't know you know

  maybe the government would be ok with

  with yahoo and google tying up together

  or maybe they still would

  yeah i don't know i think it's going to

  be interesting to see how that plays out

  and I think in hindsight it will become

  obvious how acrimonious it is that she

  left them you know is it seen inside

  Google as a betrayal or is it you know

  good for her and now we're sort of like

  partners sort of like and a comparison

  that I've seen other people make is to

  Stephen Elop who was a Microsoft di-

  left for nokia and as soon as you got to

  nokia forge this extremely tired boss

  you know that whereas it seems pretty

  obvious and that the nokia diehards the

  people who don't like that they've that

  they don't have their operating system

  anymore see it as you know that this was

  planned from the start that he was like

  a mole in no pariah

  I think I i think i alluded to that when

  it first happened that that is awesome

  that Microsoft gotta plant in in Nokia's

  area and I think that through some

  higher from Frank shot his head

  microsoft corporate communications they

  did not like that too much

  well I mean however much it was planned

  and however much that you know that this

  was it was agreed upon and events it's

  certainly in hindsight is shown know

  that Stephen Elop experience as a

  Microsoft executive certainly influenced

  his leadership in nokia in a very Pro

  microsoft way

  ya mean that's definitely right i mean

  we doesn't really matter whether you

  think that it's good or bad for nokia

  but that certainly is the way it's

  played out

  I don't you know I think we'll have to

  see if it's going to happen like that

  with with marissa mayer right there's

  something to be said for you know just

  doing what you know and what you've done

  for the past decade or more and that's

  like you know it's the rest of our

  google runs very thick through her blood

  so you know maybe she does just turn to

  them for certain things that that

  previous yahoo CEOs one

  done another thing that you brought up

  if you know right after it happened

  which was interesting you tweeted about

  did she use an iphone or not and they

  think you know a lot of people kind of

  dug up that you would see like the

  little uh little indications on Twitter

  and stuff that she was tweeting from an

  iphone and using Instagram in the early

  days and stuff like that

  that's interesting because you know it's

  kinda also shows that she wasn't so

  ingrained in the android culture that

  she's going to you know

  bend over backwards to fork make some

  kind of yahoo phone or something that's

  that's that's only working on android it

  seems like that won't happen and that's

  great yeah that you know and it wasn't

  just it wasn't just me trying to view

  everything from what's it mean for Apple

  perspective right by I think I think it

  shows that she has an open mind more

  than anything you know that she wasn't

  just another cog in the google machine

  that just uses android because you have

  to use android there she was willing and

  maybe it's great for from her viewpoint

  of a competitive landscape maybe she

  wanted just to use iphone maybe she

  liked it more maybe she wanted to use it

  because she really felt like she needed

  to stay on top of you know what are the

  big emerging trends out there

  well any other thing that makes it

  interesting now that she's the CEO at

  yahoo's the yahoo I it is quiet but they

  have a bunch of partnerships with Apple

  as it the content provider for the


  yeah and it's even more with I was 6 or

  because I've already talked about kind

  of the the Serie and sports integration

  I think that's yahoo sports yes it is

  its yeah this all the sports stuff in

  ios6 is powered by yahoo sports and

  yahoo sports is actually one of the

  powerhouse properties in yahoo i mean

  everybody is not a huge sports fan it's

  it's sort of quietly everybody thinks of

  things like flickr and the search and

  and yahoo mail and stuff like that but

  Yahoo Sports is it easily top five

  sports site on the web

  maybe oh yeah i think it's too it might

  be to be you know you always hear these

  reports like an ESPN you'll hear in

  sports center where they talk about a

  report from yahoo sports yeah and that

  happens all the time it's a part of it

  is because the huge part of it is

  because they actually invested quite

  heavily in

  in original journalism ya on that side

  of things in the plan I think way back

  when the plan was to kind of start that

  with Yahoo Sports see if it would work

  and then go into other verticals and

  they just never really did that to see

  if they could replace like you know the

  AP Reuters and become like one of the

  you know main sources of wire news and

  whatnot but they did do a great job

  hiring at yahoo sports and it it remains

  a great place for you know breaking

  sports news

  yeah and i think it's i don't know I I

  would yeah i think it's either number

  one or number two probably after ESPN

  I'm guess yeah I would imagine ESPN's 1

  i'm probably too maybe CBS 4s but i

  think it's i think it's probably yahoo

  sports and it's by far the biggest of

  the online-only properties right like

  you know the ones that are that competes

  with our the TV mostly the TV one's by

  ESPN and CBS Sports is big

  I and probably Sports Illustrated right

  which CNN right now

  yeah that's part of it yeah that's

  that's really interesting they're also

  huge obviously in finance right so they

  have a network that's what powers the

  iOS stocks app is still right yahoo

  financial information so that's another

  big vertical from yahoo news is still


  I think I don't know if I think google

  news may have overtaken it is bigger

  property but it's still you know a major

  driving factor and what people use yahoo

  for rent and I i think that Mobile is

  obviously a huge question going forward

  for yahoo and you know Apple obviously

  has as you know the whole shebang google

  obviously has android microsoft has

  windows phone haha yahoo doesn't really

  have its own or not even I shouldn't

  even say really just doesn't have any

  kind of mobile right they have no in of

  their own right there

  they're completely at the beck and call

  of these other players right and i think

  it was you know I bigger pointless for

  them to start I think that they're there

  play from mobile is I think to be a

  content provider

  yes right they absolutely should and

  there and that's it's working so far for


  you would imagine that it won't work for

  the google flavored android because

  they'll they have their own competing

  services across the board for all that

  stuff for search for sport well not

  really for sports maybe we could do for

  sports but for finance revenues but you

  know maybe sports and you know certainly

  maybe they could do something with

  Microsoft given the big deal for windows

  phone they could

  yeah i think that's that's the way to do

  well any other things that that struck

  me about microsoft is now Microsoft is

  out of MSNBC no yeah right like they got

  out of the TV channel wide while back

  yep but they were they were still

  partners on the on the website and now

  they're not so I I i do think there's

  some opportunities there where they can

  sort of try to play it up cross no not

  just not just Apple but you know

  across-the-board try to get the yahoo

  properties established as the leading

  mobile providers

  yeah that's smart i forget who was I

  don't was a you i don't think it was you

  who said like one simple goal for yahoo

  you know like just talking about that

  right after the hiring talking what

  Yahoo should focus on like just just

  trying to get one app on the main screen

  of like every iOS and Android device out

  there and is it and I think that it's

  good that good strategy i think yeah I

  think that's absolutely edge it's it's a

  clear goal i think it's in I think it's


  yeah yeah and and so google apple also

  has the deals for yahoo mail obviously

  they've had that since the beginning it

  and yeah also sort of interesting

  because it's also I think hotmail is

  bigger which is weird but i think that's

  the biggest one and I think yahoo mail

  is still number two with google quickly

  catching up to it but that's that's

  another property that's huge there's

  yahoo messenger it seems like IM is sort

  of falling by the wayside you know maybe

  they can do some interesting video stuff

  and compete with skype more something

  like that but these are you know things

  that that tens of millions of people use

  every day if not a hundred million

  people it's kind of a crazy thing

  they're scale at that point and I think

  that the and i think the other thing

  they've got to do is they've got to

  start thinking about what's the next big



  absolutely and that that will require

  you know bringing in some some real

  outside thinkers not just the people who

  have obviously been at yahoo for the

  past 10 years and you know it sucks but

  i hope that they do clear house quite a

  bit it seems like there's you know you

  don't want to call him dead weight but

  it seems like there's just a lot of

  people you talk to former and current

  yahoo employees even they just say

  people are just they're collecting a

  paycheck and they're not really inspired

  maybe this hiring inspires fifty percent

  of them but they're still going to be

  fifty percent who are just you know just

  their kind of kicking around there

  they're B players when they need to be a

  player's kind of situation i'd totally

  agree i think they got a clean house

  focus focus focus get a nap on ever get

  try to get one app on everybody's home

  screen and then figure out what the next

  big thing that yahoo can can start the

  market for yeah definitely I like our

  chances i really do i do too i think

  every you know there's there's reason

  why the consensus is that this is a good

  thing you know there's a few naysayers

  who say like I'll she didn't get along

  with anyone that you at Google but

  there's always going to be stories of

  you know you and you can report any

  story that you want you can always find

  someone to say that but i think that the

  general consensus you know ninety

  percent of the people are saying that

  this is a good thing i think it actually

  is a good thing and you never have seen

  this before at least in recent memory of

  yahoo even when jerry yang came back

  right uh it was you know is like a case

  they're gonna try and do like it Steve

  Jobs rejuvenation type thing but is this

  really going to work and of course it

  didn't work at all right on it certainly

  success is definitely not insured but i

  think it's amps it's definitely a

  possibility the opportunity is there

  I also think too that anybody who who

  says know a lot is obviously going to

  make enemies

  I mean maybe enemies the wrong word but

  they're going to have people say which I

  do I didn't like working under her

  because she said no to all this stuff

  alright yeah alright let me take a break

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  use a stylus with your with your i

  paddle never do you know this this

  cosmonaut thing is sort of interesting

  i've seen it you know out around before

  but it's a hook that kind of like a cran

  yeah one of those big fat cranes yeah

  that's good you know there is that story

  a couple days ago that I forget who

  reported it but that Microsoft is

  looking into you know next-generation

  styluses 442 use with their surface

  devices or went out and you know your

  kind of reminded of that the Steve Jobs

  quote that if you see let's see a

  stylist they blew it but this one is

  good huh what's this guy's butt up

  yeah well it's it's good for it's great

  for what the ipad is in fact 18 when

  they designed it they had a blog post

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  tip has to be fat and all the other

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  that look like more like a regular pet

  pens dimensions

  yep still have like a pinky finger size

  tip at the end because that's what the

  screen sense with the touch sensor is

  optimized for right on so no it's not

  like riding with a fine tip pen and you

  can you can get tiny little handwriting

  it's you know it's like a marker but if

  it's if that's what the tip has to be

  why not give you a big thick marker in

  your hand it's almost like you like

  writing on a on a small white board

  instead of pen and paper huh that's


  ok so like from a practical like given

  the the practical aspects of what the

  ipad screen already it supports as a

  touchscreen it's it's like an optimal

  marker for nice and and and people often

  say to me people often go cuz i quote

  the APCs stylist they blew it i right

  whatwhat jobs men about that though is

  is a device that ships with a stylus and

  in writing requires that right either

  requires it or is intended to be used a

  lot of the time

  not that there's never a case for it i

  mean i think a nap like paper or any of

  the drawing apps for the ipad i

  absolutely work better with a stylus

  them with a finger

  yep yeah and I think that's you know

  what is the Galaxy Note has one right

  there right a giant phablet and it's

  just so ridiculous

  affected that ships with one I think I

  just saw that they're going to do a

  galaxy note 10 now like their content

  yeah they're gonna use that because I

  guess it is a big seller especially in

  in Korea that they're gonna use the note

  brand as well it makes sense i mean it


  I you know someone once I've only seen

  it a couple times but someone's head one

  stage you know you have them hold it up

  to their face just to see how big it is

  it's not that much different than the

  size of the galaxy 7 which is where the

  nexus 7 which is sort of funny

  yeah speaking of which you about two

  weeks ago you know you reviewed the

  nexus 7 over at TechCrunch and you liked


  yes i did i did and I you know I liked

  it a lot more than I expected to you

  know it's kind of I was I was gone

  uh I was abroad when Google i/o happen

  where they had failed it and I was kinda

  i was watching the Twitter chatter and

  and I'd heard a little thing a few

  things here and there about what was

  coming and so it intrigued me because I

  wanted to see what the form factors like

  I mostly wanted to see if google would

  be able to google and their partner aces

  would be able to create a decent even

  tablet for under two hundred dollars

  because we've all seen the kindle fire

  it sucks you know it's it's 200 is under

  two hundred dollars but i am not making

  any money selling it and it still sucks

  so I was very curious to see what if it

  would be any good and so the the initial

  reports coming out seem to suggest that

  was pretty good and so Google was nice

  enough to send me one too to take a look

  at and you know props to them they know

  that I I'm pretty negative towards

  google image in recent years in general

  but they know i think that you know if

  they if they actually make a good

  product i'm gonna call it like I see it

  and say that it's a pretty good product

  and i do believe that this is a pretty

  good product i think that you know it's

  it's a lot of people want to frame and

  of course the ipad it's different right

  now because one is you know a 9.7 inch

  one is a 7-inch tablet and you you hear

  that in your mind and you think oh

  that's not the big difference but

  diagonally speaking the screen size and

  everything it's actually a pretty huge

  difference and that's i love the form

  factor of it and you know as I said in

  my review

  I think that this is the strongest case

  yet for why Apple should do something in

  this in this form factor in all

  indications you know seem to be that

  they're going to do something maybe a

  little bit bigger of course but uh I you

  know the main thing is the form factor

  the second thing is that Android a 4.1

  jellybean variety is a is finally to the

  point where it feels smooth enough and

  it's interesting i also have it

  installed on a Galaxy Nexus which is you

  know their last flagship device and i

  definitely liked it more on the nexus 7

  i don't know if you know III this device

  is obviously a little bit faster than

  that but uh for whatever reason i just i

  think it's it's much more nicely attuned

  to do that 7-inch tablet than it is to

  the the 4 inch or whatever size screen

  the the Galaxy Nexus has and maybe

  because there's less scrolling involved

  yeah good because I still feel like I

  still feel like that's the one thing on

  Android that is very jarring is

  scrolling yeah it it's you know they

  made a big point about saying how

  buttery they even call it butter right


  their new accelerated thing it's still

  it's not as smooth as iOS four you know

  whatever reason they can't get that to

  happen but it's you know it's something

  that i think the majority of consumers

  would would would not care about and/or

  notice except subconsciously which I do

  think it's so important I think you know

  when people think about quality there's

  subconscious things going on you know

  when they use the device when they pick

  it up at an apple store and just don't

  even realize like oh this is so much

  smoother it's just kind of a little

  thing but I think for the most part the

  price and the size of this makes it

  compelling to a lot of people and I

  think they're going to have strong sales

  the indications are that they're already

  a failing to meet some demand for it


  it's a very good time and I do think

  that mean they have explicitly pitched

  it as a consumption device

  I mean they're an addy I into their

  credit i actually think that sort of

  focus is why the product is getting I

  haven't I actually haven't seen a bad

  review of the next system

  yeah and I think that that having that

  sort of focus so here's what it's meant

  for it is meant for buying stuff from

  our google play store

  yeah we went to the point where they put


  that stuff on the main screen like they

  have this widget and in jellybean that's

  basically like you can rearrange things

  a bit but they have you know giant

  picture of a magazine you know that

  comes shipped with it's like an Esquire

  or something and then they have a

  Transformers movie box a artwork so you

  have that on there too and then you have

  a couple books that they shipped with it

  they make it front and center very

  obvious that this is about this is about

  media consumption and the google play

  store right and i also think you know

  and i know we for three years now we've

  had these arguments about the ipad is it

  for consumption is it good for creation

  is a general-purpose computer I and as a

  platform it's for anything I mean

  eventually these tablet OS is like

  android and iOS could be used that you

  know that's that's the future of

  computing in general for everything on

  so the argument isn't is the ipad mostly

  used for consumption yes probably it is

  but that you know windows is mostly used

  for consumption most people don't make

  websites most people just reading right

  i mean I stuff my entire the entire

  internet is that way I mean you know

  there's the rule where it's ten percent

  creators and ninety percent you know


  consumers of of the information yeah but

  i do think that that's the argument in

  favor of or a big part of the argument

  and end of Apple jumping into this you

  know smaller tablet market is for people

  who are just look I just want to watch

  some TV shows while I sit in bed with

  something that just comfortably sits on

  my you know I'm propped up in bed

  yeah it's a great form factor I think

  you know going back really quick to the

  two that the media side of things and

  kind of these these devices being set up

  for the google play store you know the

  one of the biggest criticisms I had of

  the Nexus 7 is that while google is

  playing this up as as a device for

  consumption of the google play content

  Google Play content is still not nearly

  where it needs to be in relation to both

  Apple and Amazon I mean they still don't

  have warner music on there so that you

  know don't have a quarter of of the

  music catalog out there in the world are

  on this that you can get on this device

  what do you do with if you have you know

  REM or something or some other Warner

  artist that you really want and you can

  get it you could use of course

  spotifyrdio or one of those but you know

  there's Google is trying to get you to

  use the google play store and they just

  don't have the same amount of content

  same goes with magazine same goes with


  same goes with even-even films they

  don't have everything right and and so

  it's kinda I did I still don't really

  think that Google has the complete

  picture worked out of how this should

  work it's kind of confusing as to why

  they're forcing everyone into this

  mentality that this is for the google

  play store when the google you know the

  play store isn't quite ready for prime

  time yet but i think they saw the the

  Amazon threat of the kindle fire you

  know taking control of Android itself

  for the tablets and they just felt like

  they had to make this move right now

  right and i think it was a very right

  it's very much it really is exactly what

  they said it was there's no hidden

  purpose to it is to have a device to

  support their online media that you know

  the play store

  yeah yeah and and you know while it's

  well it's definitely it's definitely a

  hit on the advice that they don't have

  any 3g you know or wireless capabilities

  whatsoever i also think that that's a

  great move on their part just because

  just because the fact they can show the

  carrier's finally that they have some


  uh you know that they can actually sell

  these things without needing the carrier

  right uh you know to do it and so they

  can finally ship android the new android

  updates and not have to worry about any

  carrier having any say over when these

  wear these rollouts actually come i do

  think the next that brings us back to

  the commercial in the commercial is this

  the dad camping with his son and they're

  using the nexus 7 to do all sorts of

  cool things at night on and the big

  reveal at the end of the commercial is

  that other just can't they're actually

  just camping in the backyard right which

  explains why how they had no internet

  access because it's Wi-Fi on right i

  mean the other explanation would be that

  the dad had my fire or something you

  know it in his bag but that's not going

  to work for a sexy commercial yeah

  that's it's sort of funny the way that

  they did it just kind of nodding to the

  fact that you probably don't want to use

  this thing actually in the

  the woods that you will just want to use

  a close to your house or close to a

  place of work somewhere with Wi-Fi i do

  wonder i wonder if the lack of a of a 3g

  version if they're about to be hit on

  two sides on that front though because

  what if and what if the kindle to Kindle

  Fire 2 has yeah that's a great point

  because I amazon already has those

  relationships right with with the kindle

  itself they had who'd ya at first I

  think they tmobile and then they got

  AT&T to provide for free

  it was baked into the cost of the device

  but you could get updates of your books

  and download books for free without

  having to worry about a monthly bill

  thing right I do wonder how they would

  negotiate that if if it was a general

  consumption device meaning you know you

  could browse the web and download movies

  uh it seems like it would be a little

  little pricey for them to I don't think

  trying to negotiate something without a

  deal right now I don't think and I don't

  think they could possibly do that for

  free i mean nobody they can do it they

  got away with it on the E and candles

  because that's so little data right and

  Emmy of you mean if you ever tried using

  the web browser on one of those things

  minutes you know it's almost it's like a

  parlor trick it's not really

  yeah it's not really feasible it's like

  getting web pages by facts right but

  maybe may I got they would have to I

  imagines do the same kind of deal that

  Apple did with the ipad where you have a

  a come come as you want to take plan

  we're just you know you can pay one

  month and not pay the next imagine they

  have to do that unless unless they did

  some deal with one of the carriers and

  they subsidize the price the kindle fire

  down to free because you signed up for

  ten dollars a month or something like

  that maybe they could do that but it

  still seems like the the bar has been

  set with these tablet devices that

  you're going to pay whatever you pay

  whatever the retail prices and you're

  not going to worry about a monthly bill

  Wright which brings us to apples

  purported ipad mini and whether or not

  it will have 3g I i think it will I

  think it'll have the exact same sku

  configurations is as the big ipad so you

  think it will have 4g as well and also

  LTE know I'd well I don't know I don't

  know about that

  that yeah I i guess that comes down to

  two battery in and yeah that's the

  biggest factor i would imagine for what

  they are decided by maybe because a lot

  of what I've been seeing lately

  speculates that a big a bigger power

  drain on the ipad 3 is the retina

  display not the LT compared to the ipad

  2 that the screen is actually consuming

  a bigger reason why the battery is

  thicker than the LTE that's interesting

  LOL so you have to you have to consider

  the fact that you know were what six

  months removing us from the new ipad and

  so even now they probably have slightly

  better chips in terms of power

  consumption management for LTE can


  yeah I actually now that I think about

  it I think it's gonna be I think it

  probably would if it has 3g at all it

  would have LT and if they do that that's

  that's a killer feature right there

  right we'll have a lot of people are

  going to love that what do you think I

  am I thought on price is 299 I don't

  think they're gonna go to 199 what do

  you think there's I think they'll do 199

  wifi-only but and location and Andy

  usually amount of storage but they'll

  hit that price point and you'll have to

  pay i forget what the what's the premium

  for getting 3g on i think i think it's

  is it is only thirty dollars no it's a

  hundred and thirty dollars right right a

  hundred and thirty dollars that's all i

  said i would think you know 199 get you

  a Wi-Fi only one and 299 get you one

  with 3g like a hundred so how'd it how

  do you reconcile that then you know with

  the there was just a report yesterday

  and you know who knows these are

  one-time reports out of like Japan or

  China or wherever where you know talking

  about a new ipod touch it seems like a

  new ipod touch is coming because they

  haven't refresh your writing over a year


  it's been 22 years basically and if that

  device which now sells for 199 at the

  base level how do you reconcile the

  price discrepancy like those being the

  same price i just i don't think it's a I

  don't think it's a problem I think it's

  clear i think that with devices like


  yep there's that it's a one-way

  correlation smaller is cheaper bigger is

  more expensive because you're the bigger

  displays are more expensive yet but

  laptops only shrink to a certain size

  whereas stuff that fits in your pocket

  you actually pay a premium for

  miniaturization and to me it's exactly

  the same as the the dilemma over the

  original of going back to like 2,000 for

  the ipod mini rights which only had

  wrote about the other day is very is not

  there's not a huge price discrepancy

  even though it had less memory and it

  was just smaller right we're paying

  almost had it had less storage and only

  had four gigabytes of storage which was

  less than the original ipod from three

  years prior so people were like this is

  not no one's gonna buy this and the

  truth is people see wow that's way

  smaller and cooler looking I want that


  yeah I that so that's what I think I

  maybe maybe there's an issue where they

  don't want both of them priced exactly

  199 and they dropped the intro of the

  like the the base model of the ipod

  touch to 179

  yeah something like that I but i don't

  think it's an issue because it's two

  entirely different

  i sighs yeah if they include so you know

  presumably a new ipod touch would have a

  Retina display because the old one

  already dice and it would presumably

  also have a better camera if they can be

  you know just as a camera device if it

  is just as good of a camera as the the

  iphone 4s does that's a killer camera

  device for you know kids to buy for 199

  and carry around with them and you know

  on top of everything else it does so I

  agree with you because the ipad mini

  will you no will call that will not be

  considered a camera device except for

  those few jackasses and counselors that

  will hold it as they always do with the

  regular ipad right with that I thought

  of that too is how many people I see

  with how many people I see using the

  iPad as a camera I can't even imagine

  how people are going to use the ipad

  mini and they'll just they'll have like

  head-mounted head-mounted displays with

  the with this little device probably two

  of them up there to be able to capture

  two different you know like it and it's

  the same thing going back to like stuff

  like Game Boys and and

  and you know the playstation portable

  and stuff like that like people know

  that the shrink it to fit in a pants

  pocket costs a lot of money

  yeah like white and white is a PSP a

  playstation portable cost as much as a

  the whole console right right

  I wonder you know they're so there's

  there's battery life as well so the

  Nexus 7 has great battery life part of

  the reason though is that it doesn't

  have the wireless uh you know chips in

  it so it's a it's only relying on Wi-Fi

  to be able to do that nor does it have a

  Retina display but we we assume right

  the ipad mini will not have a Retina

  display because you've made the great

  point you know great case for why it

  would if they do it would be cut from

  the same bright display as the three the

  iphone right and I don't know that for a

  fact that's just my own speculation and

  so maybe it would actually be a

  different technology but i still think

  though the fact that they have

  experienced massive amounts of

  experience for five years making exactly

  163 pics pixel print screens that it

  it's gotta work out in our favor

  operations was even if it's not

  literally cut from the same sheet says

  that the 3gs but I Isis I would be very

  surprised I wouldn't be surprised at all

  if when we get them and we look at it

  that it looks like you know a quadruple

  size 3gs and that's a that's you know

  that's another differentiating factor

  between what we just talked about the

  differentiating factors between the ipod

  touch and the this ipad mini yes also

  have to think obviously the ipad mini

  versus the regular ipad i mean yeah

  absolutely i think that and I know so I

  don't think that I i would expect that

  even if they even after even if it's

  true and apple does release this 7.5

  inch ipad mini at a aggressive price

  point I mean maybe it starts at two

  forty nine instead of young 99 me that

  way it's not more than half the price i

  mean i think that's I think 249 is a

  very very good bet if you're if you've

  got like an office pool on what the ipad

  mini starting price is going to be 2 49

  is committed and maybe even better than

  one menu and yeah and it's still I mean

  they could easily get away with doing

  that in a world of a of a 199 Nexus 7

  and Kindle Fire because there's so much

  more to just value in the ecosystem of

  all these apps that are made for the

  ipad they've all this content that's

  already out there they have millions of

  users that already have

  have all their apps you know that

  they've downloaded and so you know

  you're gonna have tens of millions of

  users right off the bat who buy this

  thing yeah even if they do it i don't

  expect that sales of the big ipad the

  regular one with the only one we know

  now i don't think that they'll drop it

  all I think they'll continue to grow

  I think it's a different i think it's

  expanding into a different market not

  eating into the same market and I wonder

  you know the margin question would be

  fascinating to kind of get into its like

  the there's they're getting down there

  because the ipad is already a lower

  margin device than the iphone right but

  that's a lot to do with subsidies and

  right you know that's that's a huge

  issue there but it's still it's still a

  healthy margin that they're making when

  you get down to if you get down to 249

  and 199 you know how much of a margin is

  that going to be can they really make

  these things for a hundred bucks can

  make them for a hundred and thirty bucks

  uh all said and done I i wouldn't be

  surprised especially if they can already

  make an ipod touch for one then you know

  you know and and you know I i think that

  you respect wise you know once the the

  iFixit guys take one apart and once we

  run benchmarks stuff on it you know it's

  not going to be the the latest and

  greatest system-on-a-chip it's not going

  to have the retina display and i think

  it's going to have you know like the the

  equivalent system-on-a-chip is like the

  iphone four maybe I don't know maybe the

  for us but the 4 s's are a year old now

  so that's cheaper

  yeah ah yeah and I think that's that

  whole Tim Cook angle on Apple is that

  they they reuse these certain core

  technologies in a way that they just

  leverage the hell out of the economies

  of scale right i mean i would love to

  know what it costs them to make a 3gs

  now like what it actually call it like

  what would be the break-even price on an

  iphone 3gs well so it's subsidized down

  to zero but they said so what do they

  actually sell it for like we can get an

  unlocked one for is that 199 yeah

  somebody told me that somebody just had

  a story last week that in India they're

  selling it as a prepaid device for 199

  the equivalent of you know that once you

  you know right that it's about 200 bucks

  ok ok so that's interesting yeah yeah it

  because it's you know along lines of an

  ipad and ipod touch now yes right right

  yeah yeah okay yeah i mean i think it

  seems like this is this is going to

  happen now there's been too many reports

  out there right when there's this much

  smoke around something it's you know

  there's got to be something out there

  that it's coming it's always possible of

  course that apple would delay it at the

  last second because of some issue may be

  there maybe there's a supply issue like

  you know who knows what can happen along

  those lines but if they get this thing

  out in time for the holidays

  this could be you know the the greatest

  selling holiday device that they've that

  they've ever launched a you know a

  holiday time right and i think it could

  get it it could get silly real fast that

  all the market share numbers consider

  the tablet to be at its own category not

  the pc right right i can I realized the

  ipad is not a pc as we know it but i

  think that it just shows that it's silly

  in today's day 22 count pc sales as a

  market you hurt you if you know don't

  worry about whether it's a pcr just in

  big in the category and say computing

  devices mobile computing you know

  yeah i totally agree this is the all

  that matters is how people are using

  computers on a daily basis and you know

  the ipad / tablets are coming with a

  vengeance now the next seven numbers are

  going to be huge the kindle fire was big

  for a bit and then it dropped off but

  you know all indications are that Amazon

  is getting ready to release another one

  arm the other two things you know to

  talk about is that so we got the nexus 7

  and you've got the kindle fire now the

  reports yesterday are that Amazon is

  going to have a another device coming

  out a refreshed a kindle fire but they

  also have a 10 inch version and so

  that's a you know that's going straight

  on with the with the current ipad and

  the other line of thinking is that

  google called the nexus 7 x-7 because

  they're going to have another sighs

  device to to come out with down the road

  to write DX is 10 or something right and

  nexus 10 so what do you think about them

  going directly after the ipad i mean

  obviously no one made any inroads and

  all this time these two year two plus


  going after the ipad do you think that's

  like a good way to get a foothold in the

  door like with the nexus 7 doing well

  then the nexus 10 does better as a

  result of the nexus 7 doing well yeah i

  think it could especially if it

  continues to sell i think it's you know

  I think it's the way to go and I think

  the argument the argument for multiple

  tablet sizes is exactly the same as the

  argument for multiple laptop sizes the

  different people have are willing to

  make different trade-offs you know why

  would somebody carry around a 15-inch

  four and a half pound macbook pro right

  when you know when i'm living at the

  luxurious life with my little love you

  know stack of paper weighs like macro


  well because some people are doing like

  pro audio and video or some people just

  like to have a big-screen everywhere

  they go

  you know yet i definitely think that I

  think anybody who has any kind of

  lasting success in the tablet market is

  going to have a a some sort of range of

  sizes and this and the surface is going

  to be slightly bigger right it's like a

  10.6 inch screen i think at least the

  the initial version that that Microsoft

  will be coming out with I don't think it

  was quite that much bigger I think it

  was but it was definitely 10-point

  something something I was like 10.1

  maybe it is ok but so it's slightly

  larger so they're obviously you know not

  not focusing at least at first on the

  smaller tablet space and going rights

  directly after the ipad space right and

  and i think it gets back to your point

  about people who are using tablets his

  laptop replacement I mean that's clearly

  examining explicitly what the surface is

  aimed at right as we've seen with the

  with the keyboard itself the keyboard

  cover which you know I was pretty I

  ripped apart uh pretty quickly just

  because i think i think it's a silly

  thing to do it where it's a built into

  the device itself and i know it's in

  it's an add-on I don't know are they

  giving it to have they announced that

  they're going to give it with the the

  surface or if you have to buy it as a

  separate add-on of the night I guess I

  it must be a separate item because

  there's two different ones

  that's right ok you're right so that's

  good ok because like I can rip apart is

  like it just kinda you know moves the

  mentality from like we're breaking new

  ground in computing and we're moving on

  from this pc world to instead we're

  keeping the same you know the same ideas

  of the pc world we're just kind of

  making it look different

  and there was a great uh that great

  image of a laptop versus a surface where

  you know the laptop has the-the-the

  thick bottom and the thin screen versus

  the surface with the thick screen and

  the thin bottom for the the keyboard and

  so that's what I kind of had a problem

  with but i will say since I just a few

  days ago I I happen to be an apple store

  and I were a randomly decided to pick up

  one of those logitech keyboard case

  things for the ipad right that that

  thing is great it's amazing i can type

  just as well on that as I can on my

  computer and I I i fully plan to the

  next trip i'm taking taking a trip trip

  in a few weeks just for a few days not

  bring a laptop at all just gonna bring

  the ipad which I probably would have

  done anyway but now I don't have to

  worry about a thing i mean i can send

  any email and and type at full speed and

  I recognize too that you know some

  people are great at typing on the ipad

  already with the with the the software

  keyboard but you know for whatever

  reason I was brought up in the world

  where you learn how to type on a

  keyboard and I'm significantly faster

  doing it that way and so you know people

  like me are are are going to be feel a

  little bit more comfortable for the time

  being at least using that keyboard and

  so I'm a big fan of this logitech thing

  and so the Microsoft Surface the cover

  is starting to make quite a bit more

  sense to me

  right but I don't think though it's

  exclusive to them i mean III just think

  that the number of you know when and if

  it turns out to be a good idea i mean

  Apple just put a key boarded in the next

  smart color

  yeah yeah I you know and have it be like

  Bluetooth or something like that right

  there is something clever about the way

  that they're drawing power over their

  magnetic connection

  yeah right because this logitech one

  that I have has a is battery-powered

  around and you have to recharge it up

  and it is Bluetooth and it works with

  the magnets though it does

  oddly enough you know they say it works

  fine with the 4gs because the art sorry

  bill with it with the new iPad because

  the new ipad is slightly thicker than

  the the previous ipad i've attached to

  both there's that you can definitely

  tell that it's definitely more tuned for

  the the last generation ipad 2 rather


  because it's the magnet slightly slip a

  little bit it's kind of weird thing but

  yes so the the powering thing for the

  surface keyboard is definitely an

  interesting opponent and they also have

  as much as a keyboard Dave Dave touch

  elements to right where you can you have

  like all a trackpad like thing right now

  so you can use your mouse cursor that's

  ridiculous pic microsoft I don't know

  it's gonna be interesting with the rest

  of the year is going to be fascinating

  yeah i'd also someone before we get off

  the subject i saw that the stories about

  the the new kindle fires that are at

  apparently imminent that there's five or

  six sk use yeah i saw III my sense of

  that is that they'll have two different

  sizes so i had actually you know like a

  year it was a little over a year ago

  that i got my hands

  ugly enough on a prototype of the kindle

  fire before it was even named or

  anything like that right i remember that

  i remember in and it was my last my last

  great scoop i was still at TechCrunch

  and so I you know I talk to someone who

  is telling me basically the entire you


  product pipeline and everything and they

  already had in the lab at that point a

  10 inch version there were there were

  issues they were having with it and that

  they were going to delay it and I think

  they also just wanted to see how the

  kindle fire itself as the 7 inch version

  would sell and so the plan was to

  release it in q1 or q2 of this year

  which obviously came in wins and they

  didn't do it i think that they saw the

  kindle fire had some issues it wasn't

  getting great reviews and who knows they

  may have had component problems as well

  but so the tenant has always been in the


  I think with these multiple sku that

  they're talking about now I think the

  plan is still to do a seven inch and a

  10 inch and they would just have

  different varieties of them like they

  would have one with more memory in it is

  my sense of what they're going to do

  with that right because the other thing

  I thought mean I'm people with my I saw

  a lot of speculation that meant that

  they're going to come out in a whole

  bunch of different size right but I

  don't like I would expect two sizes

  maybe even only maybe still even only

  one size

  yeah cuz you gotta remember like the

  ipad 2 had 18 different sk use because

  it had yeah all the different carriers

  black-and-white three sizes

  ah Wi-Fi only

  verizon compatible AT&T compatible and

  and the ipad 3 still has a I think 12

  yeah it's you don't have to get a

  different I don't know but there's a

  good counting excuse doesn't doesn't

  imply counting different sizes

  it would be easy to have six different

  sk use and just have to be you know

  color and storage

  yeah right and you know dark that I

  doubt amazon which still very much

  trying to figure out this market comes

  out with us a 5 inches 6 inches set

  right it seems a little bit of overkill

  yeah well let me I was going to take a

  second break here and thank our second

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  need a sodastream so you can / carbonate

  your own water and really it there is no

  step three you can coffee more uh OMG i

  do i almost called you Marco

  that would have been better been cool

  flattered i never make my own now oddly

  enough I don't know why I just never got

  into that I feel like I've just never

  had a good coffee maker and that's why I

  don't do it i should get into that

  because that you know God knows how much

  money I waste at coffee shops on a daily


  I'm also a little weird though because I

  don't really like hot coffee

  I only like iced coffee and so you know

  there's a little bit more of a process

  in involved in doing that I mean you can

  make it a night and put it in the fridge

  and stuff like that which does seem more

  but it does it takes planning and i

  don't know i don't have yeah i actually

  just I actually on that the talks

  website they had a a a blog post about

  making iced coffee

  I really have to check that out that

  could be interesting to but the big

  problem for me is that it it's still you

  can't just do it and have coffee 10

  minutes later right mix work and not you

  know for me it's it's way too i need the

  instant gratification

  yeah like all the sudden I need coffee

  and and and i need a really really quick

  it's awesome that you're getting coffee

  sponsorships on the show you you're

  moving up in the world here

  good i can I do that I have to hear

  about that right i mean i love have

  sponsorships from apps i mean if you've

  got a nap and you want to promote it get

  attention and i would love you know

  you're always it's obviously going to be

  a huge source of sponsorship on a show

  that you know that I'm hosting but yeah

  I love the idea of of everything from

  coffee suppliers to that you know the

  the studio need guys with the little


  cliff and the stylus and stuff like that

  sponsoring the show to ya scrape so

  mountain line so my online

  yes it's coming out we can talk about

  this under under embargo which is

  certainly don't think I've ever tried to

  do this I haven't bothered about

  something done before it's legal but it

  will be legal tomorrow to write it would

  be you would be not eating well would it

  would be against the embargo for us to

  release this recording now and it would

  be it'll be okay to record it in advance

  and release it when it's not

  yes says many people do and what you

  know and not mine itself is sort of

  interesting because while it shocked the

  world it really did like no one had any

  idea that it was coming it was a big

  surprises first legitimate surprised

  that no one had any inkling of that i

  can remember in a long time when they

  did it earlier this year and but now

  it's been out in Developer Preview for a

  while and because of all those uh

  there's many sites out there

  whoo-hoo-hoo get these these great tip

  these great anonymous developer tipsters

  who are willing to break their their

  NDA's to you know leak this information

  you know it sounds suspiciously like

  some of these hipsters are actual

  writers for some of these sites who are

  breaking their own NDA's but we cannot

  we cannot be sure of this but so

  regardless of how it happens there's

  just a lot of the infos already out

  there so it's kind of it's always

  fascinating to write a review after most

  everyone knows who really cares about it

  knows what what's coming you know right

  and I think feature wise i mean Apple

  has done the run through twice now I

  mean you did it in February not publicly

  mean that they you know they they

  unveiled the website and listed the top

  features and then they did the like a

  whole third of the WWDC keynote was

  devoted to mountain

  and yah and as always i think that they

  do a very good job of highlighting the

  features that are the most universally

  applicable right so just in terms of a

  rundown and features i don't really have

  that much to add

  yeah i mean so i've been using it i've

  been using the Developer Preview since

  that initial developer preview and have

  kinda you know I've had it I had it

  first on just one machine and now I'm

  actually running it on my on my main

  imac and I'm running it on the retina

  macbook pro that I have as well as a

  macbook air and so it's you know I found

  it to be by far stable enough at this

  point obviously the gold master is out

  and it will be out tomorrow in its full

  form and it's great i mean on my is

  sample specifically you know are there

  any performance things you're talking

  about because you know normally when a

  new always comes out that's what people

  talk about you know is their performance

  gain or anything even with snow leopards

  from leopard they talked about how it's

  it's been kind of tailored and whittled

  down to just it's it's essentials and

  they made it much smaller but there

  really is nothing like that i guess that

  there the day at least want to say with

  mountain lion though i have seen at

  least on my three-year-old iMac which is

  nearing the end of its life in that its

  nearing the end of how much I'm willing

  to put up with compared to how slow it

  is compared to my other computers

  it does seem to make it faster I don't

  know what the reason for that is but it

  definitely starts up faster i noticed

  because I i've been using it non-stop

  since the initial developer preview in

  February on my 11-inch macbook air

  ah yep and i have noticed especially the

  last few bills especially since WWDC i

  have noticed that waking from sleep is a

  lot faster

  yes yeah I've noticed that as well and I

  asked them I i did ask Apple about that

  because I didn't see them mention that

  anywhere but i wanted to make sure that

  i hadn't liked placebo affected my self

  and convince you know I mean like

  convince myself that it was no I think

  some sleep faster and then the truth is

  no we didn't touch that but they said no

  they actually put a huge amount of

  effort was actually well really big

  engineering thing to to improve wake

  from sleep times everything related to

  yep well and they're doing one of the

  new big features is that power nap thing

  which i haven't actually tried yet so

  it's a weird thing too because it only

  works it doesn't work for example on on

  my old imac it only works on uh i

  believe the newer macbook airs and the

  the retina macbook pro right I don't

  even think it works on my macbook eric

  is my macbook air is two years old yeah

  I don't think it does either

  I think it's only the newest versions

  yeah starting well I I don't even I

  don't think it's just the newest

  versions that just came out and at WWDC

  I think you're right it the one before


  yeah the one where the 11-inch air got

  the light up keyboard

  yeah that's right yeah yep i have the

  note is about that it's mid-2011 macbook

  air yet numeric retina macbook pros and

  none of the imax so right yeah

  yep right but that's why i was unsure

  whether i was seeing things by thinking

  that Maya doesn't qualify for power nap

  macbook air seems to be waking from

  sleep even snappier like even getting

  ever ever closer to the ideal of the iOS

  instant wake from sleep

  yep yep that's interesting

  one of one of the features that I've

  actually use quite a bit and has been

  extremely helpful has been the airplane

  mirroring uh of the the mac itself to an

  apple TV

  this came up the other day we are trying

  to watch wimbledon and my girlfriend I'd

  actually don't have cable and so we were

  unable to watch it in a traditional

  sense but it was streaming on espn3 i

  believe and previously and it wasn't on

  the the watch ESPN app on the iPad or or

  iphone so you can do it that way but I

  could watch it on a browser and just

  stream my entire computer right right to

  the apple TV and that was awesome

  yeah now I yep

  well I the other thing I've been doing a

  big picture wise is that I i think it's

  been a total success for Apple to get

  away from these monolithic extravaganza

  and OS updates and sort of focus on ones

  that are maybe not as exciting but your

  over a year are adding features and I

  feel like by by by shooting for smaller

  less extravaganza updates

  ah it'sit's just it just seems like it's

  a win for everybody i think it's easier

  on their engineering I think it's easier

  to hit the ship dates and I think it's a

  lot less eye for users who are updating

  to each new version as they come along

  there's a lot fewer chances for them to

  to feel like wow this is too much all

  yeah right there's no there's basically

  no learning curve from mountain from

  Lyon to mount line there's new

  notification center which is awesome

  it's probably my favorite feature of it

  but you know even that feels natural

  especially if you've used iOS devices

  before you know they've done a good job

  I think making the making it's very very

  easy transition and it's great the fact

  that you can upload update from Snow

  Leopard right to mountain lion as well

  so if you happen to skip line for

  whatever reason now you can pay $19

  instead of was it before was a 29 for

  lion when I can ya so now you can pay

  even less and get upgraded to the newer

  version i do think like what you're

  talking about you know kind of the focus

  on the smaller updates and everything I

  totally agree with that but i think you

  know there's a potential for some small

  backlash just because of the fact that

  Windows 8 is coming out this fall and

  you know they'll say you know that you

  know you'll see stories that a Windows 8

  is a major upgrade whereas you know

  Apple has only been you know kind of

  tinkering small with small little things

  here and there right

  you know Microsoft has been really

  focusing on going after their core

  audience and and improving things for


  yeah i'll know there's you know the the

  i could probably right

  hey Zeus Diaz piece for getting that

  right here you know that up now but it

  is to me it is a super just super sharp

  contrast with Microsoft and Apple in

  multiple ways we're on the one front

  windows 8 is a radical interface change

  yep I mean it's easily i mean really no

  hyperbole involved the biggest interface

  change from one version to the next in

  in Windows history

  yep uh and you know mountain lion is

  absolutely the opposite of that I think

  you know most users if you set them down

  in front of line or mountain lion would

  have to poke around a bit before they

  figure out which is which

  my stay at a glance easiest way is

  probably just look for notification

  center up in the upper right-hand corner

  Notification Center and the slightly

  white tray for the that the absent on

  male oh yeah for the dog that glass doc

  is that is slightly more

  ah so you know it is a refinement I mean

  there's definitely I think it's a good

  question what do you get for your $19 or

  your 20 bucks huh yeah i think there's

  definitely there but it certainly is a

  lot less than than windows 8 and on the

  other side it's also in sharp contrast

  to microsoft microsoft has gone with

  this I what your mg so i'll go with that

  I'll go with the Lord of the Rings

  analogy this 10 s22 rules all right I 10

  s that is meant for everything from

  phones to desktop computers and apple is

  very clearly in adamantly sticking to

  this we've got shared technologies like

  iCloud and you know the names of these

  apps and and there's certainly some

  similarities that they're you know the

  whole back to the mac thing but it is

  two different os's one geared for touch

  devices and one geared for keyboard and

  pointer devices

  yes I also but I feel like I totally

  agree with that again but i think you

  know with things like notes and were and

  reminders now you know those are

  straight-up ports to a new screen size

  basically right arm and in a new way of

  interaction with mouse but it does feel

  like you know if they do two more

  iterations let's save OS 10 or you know

  if they sit k-state always tended OS 11

  who knows but if they do two more

  iterations of OS 10 I feel like we're

  going to get a lot of of kinda overlap

  between the two of us

  and it just becomes that the mac is now

  like the you know the kind of the

  version of all your apps that you're

  used to that that are just being used on

  a bigger device that doesn't sell as

  well as an iOS device that remark yeah

  and that that's a that's interesting

  thing I think you know at first

  uh I you know I think a lot of people

  are skeptical is bringing some of these

  iOS ideas and applications to the mac

  environment but now it's starting to

  make a lot of sense to people i think

  and that kind of leads into what i think

  will be the most by far controversial

  feature of a mountain lion which is the

  gatekeeper stuff because I've already

  run into a couple issues where I've

  tried to download a application over the

  web and I just had the default setting

  on when i install the mountain lion and

  so I could do it I had to go into my

  settings and switch it so that because

  no one right now Apple isn't a certified

  developers just yet for gatekeeper and

  so none of them are under that thing

  presumably most of the big ones will i

  know they told me that adobe is already

  is already on board for that so that's

  it that's a huge one for them but for

  everyone else you know you will be

  blocked from downloading uh inner

  internet applications without removing

  that thing at first without removing the

  the default settings you can still do it

  you know don't freak anyone out here of

  course you can still do you can download

  whatever you want but by default you

  will have to change that setting

  yeah i guess that probably will be the

  most controversial change because you

  know it sounds perfect on paper but in

  practice yes it is it is sort of it

  feels like you're being told to just

  told to just stick to the appstore yeah

  and how will how parents do you know

  like will even know where to go you know

  they'd guide you pretty well how to do

  it but it's it's not as seamless as you

  might think you know i can imagine for

  someone who's not really clear on how to

  guide you know make their way through

  the settings of OS 10 right and i

  wondered too with it in the first couple

  of months i think that there's going to

  be a lot more reasons for people to to

  revert that to change that setting too

  the more liberal ok allow apps to run

  from anywhere even if they're not signed

  right all right because there's going to

  be so many apps that haven't been

  updated yet

  yes and once people make that change

  their never did

  that's the sort of thing you've sort of

  set it and forget it and you're not

  going to go back and you're not going to

  get the advantages of gatekeeper like

  yeah i think it's going to take a year

  or two and and people getting wait till

  you get your next Mac and then you leave

  that setting on you know like I feel

  like a year from now it'll be a lot

  easier to to live with gatekeeper

  blocking anything that's at least not

  signed than it is now like I had to turn

  it off there was no way to you I just I

  couldn't last that long

  using only the built-in apps right i

  think in that way it's sort of similar

  to the popup blockers built into

  browsers you know when they first came

  out it's like you had to keep turning it

  off because there were so many sites

  that needed a pop up for whatever reason

  to login or something like that but over

  time it end up being a very good thing

  because it just basically killed the

  pop-up market that's actually a perfect

  i think that's a really good analogy i

  did a lot like that yeah yeah so that's

  so that's a great feature but it will be

  controversial to begin with another

  thing is so you just talked to apple

  right you didn't did they send you a

  build a specific build of of mountain

  lion that's a did they send you the one

  that's through the mac app store now

  ok so there's there's this weird thing

  going on where they have facebook

  integration write like this is coming

  and they've already announced that it's

  coming around but it's not coming till

  the fall right and it's nothing it's not

  really clear why that is because so they

  gave me a demo you know a a retina uh

  macbook pro with the new version of

  mountain lion on it but I noticed they

  also give me a code to download version

  for another computer so i could test it

  on all my machines on the ones i

  downloaded it does not have the facebook

  integration but on the one they gave me

  it does and they told me specifically

  that it would be a little bit different

  because it has the facebook integration

  I don't know what the holdup is like

  because it's ready to go it might only

  it is ready to go i think it's i think

  that I i I'm I'm / I don't know

  this for a fact my impression is that

  it's made its dull beta quality and it's

  it's there's bugs in it better that it's

  not set yet you have to get it the other

  way you can get it is if you have an ADC

  account it's a separate download from

  the GM yeah so if you go to that the mac

  developer page and you login with your

  ADC credentials there's a download

  download the GM build of mountain line a

  few a few links down there's download

  the facebook development package uh ok

  you're right then okay that makes sense

  because i was wondering if it was like

  maybe they signed a deal with facebook

  where they couldn't technically included

  until they include facebook within iOS

  officially you know as a package deal or

  something and so since that won't be out

  till the fall with ios6 maybe they

  couldn't do this integration with

  mountain line but that makes more sense

  especially well it works on the front

  end for users because it's in the

  Notification Center for example we could

  set a facebook facebook status message

  right from there just like you can with

  the tweet button now it makes more sense

  that developers might be is having some

  you know bugs are issues that they have

  to kind of work through right i think

  the other room very interesting and it

  it's obviously something that's

  something everybody's gonna notice it's

  not a detail is the iCloud document


  yes and yeah I I i think that it's it

  i'm really happy with the way that

  Apple's done this and clearly the way

  that mountain lion wants you to use

  these apps is to store your stuff in

  iCloud like that's that is what Apple

  wants you to do apple things that's the

  future of storage and sinking and stuff

  like that right and it's a huge

  difference from the way the mac has

  always work the way the mac was created

  was with this idea that the file system

  is your foundation that's the better you

  start you start by looking at the your

  desktop and on your desktop our volumes

  and you go into these volumes and you

  know where things are you know where the

  document is it's in this folder here you

  start with the finder

  yep and then you open the document and

  the new way the wood the iCloud way

  is just like iOS where the documents are

  conceptually in the app yeah when you

  want to open a text edit document you

  don't go to the finder you go to text

  edit and it in text at it

  yep to the point where I brought this up

  with them if you have a PDF that that

  was created in a certain maps a like

  adobe acrobat or something like that it

  will show up in there but you would have

  to it wouldn't show up by default in

  something like preview you would have to

  you could there's a way to do it where

  you can dig for it you know and find it

  in the file system but by default it's

  not there eight lives in whatever app it

  was created and but what I like about

  the way apples done this is they made it

  easy and it's clear that that's the way

  they want you to do it and I think it's

  the way that most people who'd sitting

  down from the mountain line first time

  they're gonna I think they're going to

  use it and I think they're gonna really

  like it but if you don't want to use it

  if you want to keep storing your stuff

  the same way you always have you want to

  use dropbox instead of iCloud or you

  just want to keep your documents with

  you know for privacy reasons you don't

  want him going anywhere to the cloud you

  only want them on your own hard drive

  I it's just one tab over in the open

  dialog box and it is the traditional

  here's you know store wherever you want

  interface and if you want to do you know

  get to them through the finder you can

  do it

  yeah that that will be a little

  controversial though as well I just

  because because it is one more click to

  be able to do it that way and they're

  trying to change it and I think that's

  where they have to do it and i think

  that the benefits of it far outweigh

  what what the backlash will be because

  now presuming you have at least one iOS

  device like this the seamlessness at

  which will work is awesome i mean you

  know everyone seemed to demo now where

  you can edit something on your mac and

  it will change in almost real time on a

  I iOS device if you're doing that and in

  terms of you know getting like a PDF

  from one app to another you can still

  use drag-and-drop yes right i mean and

  so there's you know you think like will

  can't I just drag it from here to the

  and you know let it works so I yep

  yeah i think that they've managed this

  transition very well

  because there's there's the way they

  want you to use it they're not pushing

  you there are enticing you to go there

  on your own

  yeah and i think it that the fear people

  had was that Apple is going to push

  people to do that and it's you know you

  can argue that did with some of the

  policies with all of this stuff put

  together with gatekeeper and with the

  sandboxing restrictions in the app store

  and the fact that only app store apps

  get iCloud access that you know that

  there are enticing you heavily enough

  that maybe it counts as pushing or that

  they've tilted the floor in that

  direction but they're not forcing you to

  do that and I really really truly

  believe that they're not going to do

  that that's not you know the next major

  version of Mac os10 is not going to be

  app store only right I think gatekeeper

  is there you know that's their solution

  long-term to bringing the advantages of

  two of the app store to all apps right i

  think that they're doing at the exact

  right way which is that the they're

  playing up the advantages the appstore

  separately from apps themselves meaning

  that if you want to do the app store

  like yes you'll have to you'll have to

  take a hit if you have a paid app but

  you're also getting access to Game

  Center you're getting access to the

  iCloud integration so they're playing up

  like the advantages doing it but not

  making you do it necessarily right so

  that's you know you you lead with a

  carrot not with the stick in that regard

  which is smart

  uh the two the two other things i had

  like I think there's there's a lot of

  one quick one which kind of date brings

  back to what we were talking about the

  very beginning with a with marissa meyer

  is a it's fascinating that the built-in

  sharing in in mountain-lion includes

  includes both vimeo and flickr but it

  does include youtube even though youtube

  is like you know one of the standard

  apps on iOS and and apple is obviously

  had to deal with google and that for the

  past and that's the by far the biggest

  video sharing site they have they have

  vimeo but no YouTube I'd you know what i

  noticed that i remember noting that at

  the keynote I know my notes from the

  WWDC keynote had that and i forgot to

  die I hadn't really thought about that

  sense but I remember thinking like at

  the keynote

  is that it or is that like they're still

  in negotiation and it's not in there for

  sure and yeah and Emilio is so that's

  pretty fascinating and flickers still


  flickr you know has been integrated into

  our things like iphoto for now Apple TV

  and apple TV right yeah and so it's

  still there so they're still giving a

  yahoo and flickered that love which is


  hopefully they get rejuvenated a bit the

  other a really big thing i kinda want to

  talk about was a safari itself so i know

  right i presume that you're a big safari

  user i am and i'm not i use chrome x

  pretty much exclusively except I've made

  exceptions for when the retina macbook

  pro came out because chrome was just

  looked god-awful because i wasn't

  updated with the retina graphics yet

  right even the font even a font

  rendering wasn't yeah was awful it was

  all wrong it was wrong to and twitter

  for it's still wrong and twitter for

  Makka know if they'll ever fix that it

  was wrong and sparrows wrong a few other

  things fixing sparrow but so they they

  have since fixed it sort of in the

  canary build which is the early build of

  of chrome but it's still not stable

  enough so i still use safari when im

  using the the retina macbook pro but

  i've been using it with the with the

  mountain lion release I still I still

  have a big problem with safari I know

  that they say you know they gave me the

  stats that according to sunspider

  javascript test safari is the fastest

  browser now compared to i think was

  chrome 19 or whatever the last version

  was I still find it to be slower and

  just the smallest little things that I

  do including you know one is of course

  using Gmail which makes some sense that

  google is able to optimize gmail for for

  chrome better than they could for safari

  or you know who knows that's on purpose

  or if this is just because they have

  access to that team directly but i still

  have a problem with using safari as my

  main browser and the only thing that

  I've noticed that's pretty buggy in

  mountain line is Safari itself i'm

  having rendering issues are you noticing

  no i'm not i don't know why that is just

  certain sites seem to I'll get it I'll

  get the thing where i scroll down and

  then all of a sudden part of the page

  like a square of it is white

  one of those situations i don't know

  what I could probably switch to chrome

  pretty easily although I don't really

  like Chrome on iOS as much i think they

  did a very nice job and I can see how

  some people would really like it I mean

  one of the one day when there was all

  that talk and I know you had it early

  that they were working on Chrome for iOS

  right uh which would have to to comply

  with the appstore rules use the system's

  version of WebKit right i remember

  thinking what's the point then if it's

  really just a rectangle with WebKit why

  even bother and I well I thinking

  thinking is is one of the things that

  people love the most

  uh which I care about a little bit i I'm

  used to the omni bar which is which they

  oddly added to safari in OS 10 rights

  they have them now where you can either

  search or type the URL and but they

  don't have it in even at iOS 6 right

  safari yeah I was

  that's interesting it I and i'm not

  quite sure what the logic is there

  because there's more room for a second

  bar on the matter yeah my only thought

  is that it's easier to touch you know a

  second input than it is to kind of

  Dragon mouse up somewhere and try maybe

  but i'm not sure otherwise I just hold

  that thought for a second we'll get back

  to that but another little given the

  knowledge to google changing iOS 6 is

  that that search field in ios6 no longer

  no longer says google search search the

  web for something serious

  yep yep that's right that's another

  thing that someone else brought up to me

  that maybe they do it in iOS because

  they want people to go to the sites

  directly rather than using google which

  has become almost the default for a lot

  of people to find any site you know but

  then it still doesn't make sense why

  they would do it in OS 10 go the other

  way I i don't know i will say this with

  when it comes to Chrome vs safari

  especially on the Mac I I could switch

  to chrome very easily and the times that

  I've used it i like I I can't even

  remember off the top of my head why the

  last time I tried it as my daily browser

  i switched back

  yep but it's very close to me and I do

  think and I think the best thing about

  it is to me

  does feel faster yeah I just at a

  technical level there's a big big

  fundamental difference between chrome

  and safari which is that chrome breaks

  off each tab into its own process so you

  have 20 tabs there's 20 chrome rendering

  processes and safari has two processes

  one for the interface and a separate

  process that just does the rendering now

  that's a big security when either both

  both ways give you the security when

  where the rendering process which might

  be exploited by bugs in JavaScript or

  something like that is completely

  sandboxed and doesn't have access to the

  file system doesn't have access to all

  sorts of stuff huge security went right

  but i do think that at least to date the

  chrome model of using many rendering

  processes it especially I think the

  reason that Safari get slowed down for

  me is that I'm i'm such a hyperactive

  reader that I end up with 20 30 tabs

  open at a time right

  I and that to me is when it really i see

  the difference i don't really see a

  difference in speed if I have one tab

  open in each app it's when I have a

  bunch open and I can't help but think

  that a technical level it's it's gummed

  up by only having one monolithic

  rendering process and so why did why do

  you think they do that why not just copy

  what what chrome it

  I honestly have no idea i mean that's I

  just you know and I i hesitate to

  speculate because I'm you know whatever

  technical guesses I could make are you

  know laughably ill ill informed compared

  to you know the guys who are actually on

  the WebKit team at apple right yeah the

  they have done some nice things to make

  it more compelling to use safari with

  mountain lion in particular the the the

  iCloud I tabs integration stuff so if

  you use Safari on iOS which most

  everyone does except for the few who use

  chrome you can get transferred back and

  forth quickly between your tabs that you

  have open and that's a really nice

  integration there's also that the reader

  thing which i don't know how many people

  use or don't use

  it still seems kind of half-baked in my

  mind but it's nice that they have it for

  offline now if you want to do that so

  you can you can take a bunch of articles

  if you're going to be you know going to

  an airport or whatever but you could

  always do that with instapaper one of

  the other services already and so they

  do a nice job of of kind of unifying

  that experience but it's still not quite

  enough I think to get me using safari on

  a regular basis just just solely because

  of the speed thing and I'm for whatever

  reason it's a silly aesthetic thing but

  i'm like addicted to having pin tabs

  where I have like four tabs that I pin

  which are you know like gmail a twitter

  and if few others wrote a technique is

  one of them and because i just always

  have those open and kind of shoved over

  the side they're not in my face is

  something because that you know there's

  weird spacing issues with with safari

  tabs i'm sure you've noticed this where

  it's like certain versions of it and

  i've been playing with you know it's

  different nightly build and stuff

  certain ones like when you open a new

  tab will open it like the entire half of

  however bigger window is and that will

  be the new tab other versions do it as

  like a fifth of it and they make like

  these these small little differences and

  i'm not sure what they're going for

  their I just like the aesthetic better

  yeah I don't like the way that with tabs

  and so far enough you have two tabs in a

  window they each get half the window

  yeah right exactly because I a

  statically just and I realized that the

  idea there is that if the page title has

  a long string then you see more you can

  see the whole thing yeah but st

  aesthetically it to me it doesn't it

  doesn't look good

  yeah I do actually like I'd like it

  don't like the the non showing of

  favicons which is a lot of sites just

  have shitty ones and they're kinda ugly

  and chrome shows those and safari

  doesn't so it keeps it more pristine and

  more focused on what the content is but

  you know what some hands like Google

  does it and actually kind of cool thing

  with their fabric on for Gmail which is

  that they give you a little unread count

  on it when you know so if there's a if

  there's to unread emails in there it'll

  show up in the fabric on his little too

  on the side of it

  yeah I maybe I should give chrome

  another shot I don't know it it might be

  time I think one of the reasons i

  switched the last time as I had a I had

  a bookmarklet that didn't work

  for me in chrome and i eventually

  figured out that it was it was a bug in

  the bookmarklet like it wasn't the

  chrome didn't support it was i was so I

  i probably should

  that is a big problem with chrome for

  iOS though by the way the bookmarklet

  right not work at all right that's

  really that's actually the deal breaker

  for me I mean you just added from a

  practical standpoint is is why i don't

  use it but i understand that most people

  don't you

  most people don't use bookmarklets they

  have no idea what they are and I do see

  how the way that Chrome's interface for

  iOS especially on the iphones designed

  actually puts more emphasis on the


  yes because i love it doesn't have both

  the top and bottom bar

  it just has a top bar yea which was

  little jarring at first I thought it was

  but it's actually it's pretty nice

  the thing I love the most though and god

  I wish safari for iOS with a would copy

  this is just to be able to swipe without

  zooming out you know like rather than

  hitting the tab button you can just

  swipe on the left or right and get to

  the next tab

  yeah that's genius and really is very

  nice yeah so that's that's my favorite

  thing and they did uh it kind of similar

  they did a a new gesture in safari for

  mountain lion which is that you could

  pinch to zoom out and it gives you this

  new tab view type thing that you can

  switch between the the open tabs and

  safari which is pretty slick i'm not

  sure how how how good that is for people

  who have tons of tabs open because

  you'll just be flicking through them

  forever but it's pretty nice little


  yeah but the funny thing is there it

  went to and i like it i think it's a

  great feature but they are the tabs are

  tabs sighs yes yes

  like any interface where it really

  doesn't matter there is your tabs i

  bring them down to a small little sighs

  yeah when you zoom in there you know

  they're each one gets it equal share of

  the tab bar

  yeah they only look I guess bottom line

  is that safaris tabs only look good when

  you have at least 45 tabs and window

  yep totally agree yep but other than

  that I don't really have a lot more to

  add about me I think it's a great

  release it has been stable for me I

  can't help but think that by reducing

  the price to 1919

  fine i think they're leaving money thing

  apples leaving money on the table but i

  think that they they really they're not

  really in it for the money i mean i'm

  sure right multiply the you know 50 50

  million copies they'll eventually sell

  by twenty bucks i mean it

  they're gonna keep the hundred million

  dollars or 200 million dollars whatever

  it comes to but uh I mean that's not

  that much money for apple

  yeah the you know the when they when

  they give these pitches about like what

  mountain lions all about they bleed with

  the the numbers you know those 66

  million people or whatever using OS 10

  numbers tripled i think they said in

  five years and then they talk they start

  to go and directly to like how they're

  they're focused on district distributing

  it digitally and they even told me this

  time they're not going to do the USB key

  thing that they did the last time

  because you know some people just

  couldn't comprehend how to do it three

  of the mac app store right and so but

  that's I you know that's a smart way to

  do it and it led to these they said I

  think forty forty percent of the install

  base updated to lie in nine months which

  doesn't sound like a lot compared to iOS

  but it's huge compared to any other

  desktop traditional desktop operating

  system you know they give you though the

  windows seven number that it took 26

  months to hit that same milestone and

  right and i think that you know it it

  was I think that the old numbers were

  largely at the fact that that prior to

  Lyon most people just didn't update

  their operating system till I got a new

  computer right here just the mass-market

  really just buys a computer and will the

  will install hopefully you know whatever

  software updates come over the air

  security updates and stuff like that but

  they don't when it comes time to do the

  big update to the new major releases

  have to pay for they don't do it and now

  yeah now they are ya just getting forty

  percent to do it in the night in nine

  months because that's how long because i

  really think that's a large part about

  what the you know windows seven taking

  twenty six months is I mean when you're

  talking about twenty six months to hit

  forty percent you're you're more at that

  you know two-year period where people

  get new computers every two or three


  yes that's totally true that's probably

  what drives the majority of that number

  right and i really think you know so

  with it like you said that the apple

  says there's now 66 million installed

  base from

  which isn't users it's in its max right

  and so like my family Mac might have

  multiple users and you'd its kind of

  hard to estimate users but yeah yeah you

  know that the the if every single one of

  them spent the 20 bucks to update to

  mountain line it's just not that much

  money from Apple's perspective clearly

  this thing is is price low to encourage

  people to update and it's uh it's

  fascinating how that influenced

  microsoft because now Windows 8 is is

  how much I think it's is a $29 it's

  something it's something obscenely low

  compared to what it used to be with you

  well over a hundred dollars right up and

  it's so it feels of course like they've

  been pressured to do that by what Apple

  is doing the kind of set the bar for

  what an OSI upgrade should be yeah and

  they've also simplified it where they

  don't have anywhere near as many

  versions of windows to choose from right

  they just decided to go with that

  ridiculous RT name still for an apparent

  reason but uh huh

  but but what's uh what's most

  interesting about microsoft dropping the

  price significantly of windows which is

  great for everyone great for consumers

  of course and that's going to lead to a

  lot more people upgrading to it i think

  but it's also that's that's the core way

  they make money i mean it's not the core

  way because of OM still pay for how you

  know the licensing fee to Microsoft but

  it's still like a big part of the way

  Microsoft makes money and they're taking

  whatever it is a you know a fourth cut

  right in for your email in theory Apple

  could give it away free i mean i don't

  know about the accounting III there

  still might be some kind of right there

  would be accounting practices that that

  you couldn't do that literally but or

  they could sell it for ridiculously low

  price in theory they could sell it for

  you know the dollar 99 or something

  everything it wouldn't matter to apple

  financially it wouldn't be there

  wouldn't really be taking him in the

  chin because and the whole reason for

  that is that the only people who can buy

  it are people who already paid a

  thousand dollars or more for an apple

  computer right whereas microsoft needs

  that right and that's you know core part

  of their business

  so yeah i'm at i don't i I don't know if

  the if the OEM relationship is any

  different if they're charging the OMS

  less per license because they're


  sumers left i assume not because that

  would be a significant hit on their

  business if they did that same cut for

  the for the OEM vendors that they work

  with i mean you're talking windows

  revenues cutting by a fourth or well and

  I think that the difference is that

  they're pretty much pitching it as its

  upgrade pricing only yeah that's true i

  mean and I that is a question i don't

  actually think I remember somebody asked

  and I don't think we have the answer yet

  is let's say you buy a bare-bones pc

  that doesn't even ship with a version of

  windows on it just a you know blank

  motherboard and hard drive you'll be

  able to take the $29 retail windows 8

  thing and install windows on it or do

  you have to start with some version of

  windows you know that's always been a

  tricky question i remember back in like

  the nineties like what you know thinking

  about that and I i want to say that at

  least one version maybe was windows at

  me or something like that allowed you to

  install the operating system even though

  it was the upgrade version and it wasn't

  like touted or anything but there was a

  way to do it or there might have been a

  small little hack that you could you

  know get some file on your computer that

  made it think that you had you know

  windows XP or something and then you

  could uh windows 98 I mean and then you

  could install windows and me on top of

  that there was something like that but

  as far as i know you you can't do that

  or you should be able to do that because

  I'd be stupid than you know from from

  Microsoft perspective they want you to

  of course by the the full version with

  your right is the version that they

  would sell the OEM is not some the only

  ones are doing upgrades for users so

  yeah anyway the bottom line i just don't

  think mountain lions all that shape it's

  not it is absolutely not are shaking in

  the way that Windows 8 is and i think it

  is I think it's a good thing for for Mac


  yeah that just makes that makes

  reviewing it interesting I mean you know

  basin were both writing reviews today

  and yeah but I don't know exactly how to

  add a frame and I think you know your

  framing it is correct and I don't like

  to do you know I don't know how you you

  come up coming do you do your

  traditional review stuff i know that you

  do it typically different than like say

  you know the Verger and gadget does it

  like especially with hardware but

  it and I i try to do that too just

  because i don't i don't like to go into

  details about all the little uh all the

  specs and everything because it just

  matters less and less over time it seems

  like but within with an OS upgrade like

  this it's a tricky thing to approach

  from a review perspective because it's

  so similar to what lion is you know that

  besides these core features

  yeah that's the problem I'm having with

  my reviews I edge style i like it i

  think everybody who certainly everybody

  like listens to the show and we'd during

  fireball I think it's everybody's gonna

  I think it's going to be a very popular

  update and I think it's worth twenty

  bucks but every every it's hard to write

  the review though in a way that doesn't

  come across as saying I don't know if

  that you know there's not that much new

  right right so you almost have to do it

  as taking a step back and looking at the

  broader perspective right which are

  talking right now

  yeah but anyway speaking of which we

  should probably get to work on that


  mg Siegler thank you very much for being

  here really appreciate it of course

  thanks for having me again let me just

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