The Talk Show

9: Command Versus Splat, with Dan Frommer


  it started in kindergarten there was a

  loud speaker this was like the second

  day of kindergarten and they said Daniel

  Frommer come to the whatever the office

  your parents are here to pick you up and

  i had had no idea who they were talking

  to so you didn't go ahead guys

  I waited for like half an hour and I was

  crying and I like what's going on here

  and finally my mom shut up in the

  classrooms like we're waiting here this

  whole time I've never had a reason to

  pronounce your surname before though I

  did not know that it was from her and

  not from her because you get fr om em ER

  and I kind of roll with it I'm it

  doesn't really matter that much

  I think that it you know i have from

  dome has been my online identity since

  like 1995 that makes times more sense to

  me now though

  yeah as of today the fact that you're

  you're a handle like on Twitter etc is

  from dome makes ten times more sense to

  me never really got it before always

  thought you were a little maybe a little

  kooky or something huh you know what I

  do get I do get a significant amount

  especially like a I got a restaurant or

  something like that I do get rubber

  which never add see now that doesn't

  make any sense to me because I've only

  got one be and the rules of pronunciate

  seems very clear to me that you should

  default to group her that would make

  sense but maybe I don't know fairly

  common outs with an ax handle but it you

  know I do sympathize that i see i see

  that the confusion anyway I'm here with

  dan from you you've had a busy year when

  did you leave

  Business Insider that was last June so

  it's about a year as a buzz been hearing

  about and that is where i first got to

  know your work on the Apple beat more or

  less that alley insider I think you

  linked to me like the first month that

  we started the site and I think you've

  ridiculed something rolling out an and

  you know right to it i forgot found the

  link not so long ago and I was like that

  he was actually right but it didn't

  matter is cool and that's kind of when i

  started reading during fireball choose

  2007 when we started it was then silicon

  alley insider it was supposed to be a


  about the new york tech scene and then

  about three days in we realize that most

  of our traffic was coming from outside

  of New York and a lot of our best work

  was about Google and Apple and Microsoft

  and the big tech companies so we're kind

  of stuck with the with the weird name

  for a long time but then they grew the

  site into kind of well now it as you

  know it's like kind of huffing and post

  of all business stuff but an alumna kind

  of all over the place yeah it's a good

  idea though because i do think and I

  notice you know working out of

  Philadelphia that for the most part it

  doesn't matter where you're working and

  in some ways it's good to be removed

  from anything and you can't find it

  easier to concentrate i don't have

  face-to-face meetings with people and

  stuff like that but in other ways it is

  good to be physically close to sources

  yeah I I i personally struggle a little

  with the office environment my first job

  was at forbes and high and I quickly got

  distracted and was basically spending

  like two-thirds of the day just goofing

  around talking to people so it's nice to

  to kind of be removed sometimes like I

  I'd the first like three or four months

  i was doing splatter i was getting so

  much work done because I was by myself

  and know what's bothering me but the

  same time it's also cool to you know go

  out at night time and last night I went

  to dinner with you know of a VC and nine

  entrepreneur startup type people it was

  awesome it was like wow these people are

  on the same Romans kind of cool being

  here with them so I know how much you

  want to talk about what I'm doing but I

  joined readwriteweb late last year as a

  contributor and one of the things I'm

  doing there is looking at technology

  beyond just the typical tech industry

  how it applies to governments and you

  know civilization and the future is as

  kind of a as a whole and so the story

  i'm actually working on right now is

  about the the data center industry and

  Iceland how they're basically you know

  Iceland totally screwed its economy a

  couple years ago and I and they have all

  this renewable green power that's super

  cheap and what are they going to do with

  it well they have these aluminum

  smelting plants which are not very nice

  and now there

  trying to rebuild themselves partially

  with data center so it was cool I got to

  go to Iceland for a week for work and

  and go underneath the waterfall in a

  hydroelectric power plant and tore this

  brand new data center so that that story

  should be coming out next week and that

  s some of the cool stuff that I've got

  to do lately which is very fortunate to

  my song I said forget the name of it i

  saw a documentary i almost started I got

  it through itunes on the iceland iceland

  economy and how they were kind of ground

  zero for the whole 2008 worldwide

  meltdown that that it was the epitome of

  everything that would that was wrong

  before 2008 and the fact that Iceland is

  so small

  exactly that it's like the population is

  is something like the size of st. Louis

  but it's a whole country they have like

  you know a president and a government

  and all this stuff and so a little you

  know they're they're playing way outside

  of their league there's actually a great

  book by michael lewis the guy who did

  Moneyball and the big short his book is

  called boomerang and the first chapter

  is just about how ridiculously

  auto-control the Icelandic banking

  business God and that's you know pretty

  much what shattered their economy so it

  was cool going there

  it's kind of a weird place you know it's

  like light 24 hours a day during the

  summer so I'm standing there you know 2

  a.m. on friday night a little uh you

  know have a little fun and the eating my

  kebab sandwich and his son is outside

  with mind-blowing 2 a.m. and the and

  yeah I don't know man talk about jet lag

  now is it was weird but I I mean

  although the funny thing is though the

  trip from New York is actually the same

  length as basically flying to San

  Francisco so it's not even that this is

  kind of a lame overnight flight was like

  I got there my brain still thought it

  was like two in the morning or something

  so I isn't and is out i'm going down to

  like this is like second grade writing a

  report level of knowledge of Iceland but

  is it true i seem to recall that site

  from grade school that

  Iceland is the beautiful one and

  Greenland is the one that's desolate and

  icy and that like the Vikings gave him

  the opposite name so that anybody who

  wanted to invade would go to the wrong

  one and what a cool name for a country

  iceland and but they're a little

  defensive about it because it's it hurts

  them in the sense that people think it's

  inhospitable there and I see and and so

  there are like there-there almost a

  little defensive like no no it's not i

  see here it's nice right did they should

  roll with it though because it's a

  badass name for a country it is they

  should i would like to see that and fire

  fire land is still available

  no josh josh allen has that is long and

  that is his his website but is josh

  allen what he should do is he should he

  should get one of the United do one of

  those things we get like an oil rig in

  the middle of the ocean and make that a

  country or flirt talk to Larry Ellison

  do a joint venture yeah yeah exactly get

  Larry Ellis did to do that he would be I

  think he would be up for that

  I don't know if you watch the video of

  him at the All Things D conference but

  he is hilarious i had not I did not

  expect that at all I mean I expected

  I know he's like he's friends with Steve

  Jobs kind of a mean guy but he was

  hilarious he was just talkin trash on

  everyone and in a really funny ways it

  was pretty awesome

  yeah and i'm with you because I mean

  oracle is just I know exactly what they

  do I don't know exactly what they doing

  that in the 10,000 foot perspective I

  know what Oracle does they make

  databases and enterprise software but

  add just had never had any interest in

  it so i don't really follow them that

  well and I know that he's got a

  reputation for for you know being a

  personality and that he's you know a bit

  of womanizer eat

  I know he's into the yachting the yacht

  racing and stuff like that you know this

  this is a guy who with a couple of

  billion dollars knows what to do with a

  couple of billion dollars you can ok I I

  knew all that and I didn't know that

  he's apparently you know was one of

  Steve Jobs if not best friend one of his

  very closest friends but we're seeing

  that video you can see why that that's a

  guy who could keep Steve Jobs engaged

  another reason why I can see is that he

  when he was talking about his products

  he knew them front to back in the way

  that Steve Jobs also did that most tech

  execs just have no idea like what it was

  that video you shared a while ago i

  think was a gill Emilio talking about

  some of the old apple stuff and just you

  know clearly someone gave him some

  talking points and maybe a deck or

  something and he was kind of trying to

  say stuff you know words basically where

  is Larry was talking about these

  products like he like like he designed

  them you know like he was still coding

  them or something and and he knew he

  knows you could see the he knows how

  oracle stuff can beat the competition

  and how how to spin it in a way that it

  makes it seem like you're an idiot if

  you're going with anything but the

  Oracle solution i I'm interested in

  seeing how they you know obviously that

  the enterprise is their big thing up I'm

  interested in seeing like that's one of

  those companies that has the resources

  and the ambition and I thought cisco

  might be like this to that they would

  eventually try to do something more

  consumer you know with either with

  tablets or phones or something like that

  we have you know Cisco tried with the

  flipping and totally screw that I God

  was not like the worst i was like

  somebody should do a follow-up on that

  because at the time

  actually I thought that they may be

  bought them a little bit too late that

  it seemed like maybe flips moment like

  their opportunity had passed but you do

  you also think the ipods opportunity has

  passed right there still price selling

  more ipods then than any other credits

  selling tablets right now or something

  like that right so you know i love the

  same thing was just going and the flip

  for it where I thought maybe what they

  were i thought what they would do is

  start with the flip and turn it into a

  phone and if or if not an actual cell

  phone at least internet-enabled because

  then what it that's what Cisco does

  right so I that's what I thought I just

  thought I mean whether it'll be an

  actual telephone or not I don't know but

  it's got at least have networking and

  hopefully like 3g networking so you can

  like upload stuff from anywhere right

  and and like almost like maybe like you

  know in broad terms turn these flip

  video cameras into the video equivalent


  instagram right out-of-the-box soon as

  you open it up you can get videos from

  others and watch them on the thing and

  as soon as you take videos you can share

  them you know something like that and

  instead I don't know what the hell they

  did and that's the thing we keep coming

  back to which is that that the hardware

  companies are really struggle with

  software and that's where Apple I think

  and you know some of the companies like

  Instagram are you are really fortunate

  is that they don't suck itself where

  they're really awesome at it i mean if

  you look at cisco yeah the way I used to

  look so covering cisco is one of my

  beats at forbes like long ago my first

  tech writing job and you know they they

  would do like an acquisition every two

  weeks and it was random stuff was like

  security cameras and all kinds of crazy

  stuff and the justification for all this

  was well Cisco's you know core business

  is still selling routers and switches so

  anytime they can create more web you no

  more internet traffic more demand for

  bandwidth cisco wins same way you know

  any time Apple can use itunes to sell

  more ipods and iphones and ipads Apple

  wins so that's why you know with flip

  I'm like oh this is you know exactly

  what you just said this is creates more

  video traffic you know you'll need a

  better linksys router at home and your

  isp will need to spend 40 billion

  dollars on more cisco switches and stuff

  like that but then the software comes

  into it and that's where they just got

  host that mean you know that the fact

  that that camera camcorder is an app on

  an iphone now completely you know beyond

  the fact that it makes the the flip

  camera itself useless that the cisco

  can't build really cool software to put

  on the flip either summit and it didn't

  take long and i forget which iphone it

  was but it wasn't the first one or two

  me the first one didn't even shoot video

  i write some having a stroke no no it

  was a 3gs was the the one that started

  with the video right and that's when I

  kind of started

  although wasn't that good and it was an

  HD yet and right next one I guess the

  iphone four shots HD video and that's

  where it got close and then you could do

  like a comparison between the iphone

  fours video and

  then top-of-the-line flip HD video and

  flip one I remember had better color

  especially outside

  I mean most people would agree it had

  better color looked a little bit less

  camera phony but it was really small

  I mean like in the grand scheme of video

  quality you it was close it was close

  enough that they were clearly in the

  same ballpark and just being in the same

  ballpark it's like why in the world

  would you carry this thing that's an

  inch thick with you already got your

  phone with you the other thing i really

  like is that it automatically rotated

  the video for you so it's it was true

  widescreen and not what what I call tall

  screen video which is just kind of it

  looks fine when you're watching it back

  on an iphone but the minute it goes on

  youtube or something

  yeah no totally always absurd but it too

  much it's a nicer way to hold the hold

  the device totally exactly yeah yeah

  like I do kind of secretly wish that

  that apple will figure out a way to to

  let you shoot widescreen video while

  holding the phone up and down

  I thought about that the other day I

  don't know if they would do that seems

  like one of those things were like no

  turn the phone

  I don't know yeah well I see it both

  ways because on the other hand it really

  makes intuitive sense that however

  you're holding the phone is exactly how

  you're shooting the video right now

  they're going to switch it for still

  pictures now because still fixtures a

  lot of them we do one in portrait format

  point so I want to talk to you about

  this twitter stuff because absolutely i

  think it's the biggest that well then

  and this is something that you wrote at

  you wrote this one it's flat F right

  that's right i mean i just want to

  mention this this is another thing that

  so we do left you started splat f right

  when you left alley insider Business

  Insider whatever the hell do they call

  it right or did you have a beforehand so

  i kind of got into tech writing by

  accident I i originally wanted to be a

  radio and TV reporter and I like I had a

  college radio show called Froemming at

  the mouth from like 332 5am that's

  pretty sweet and then I had a great

  internship at NPR station in Chicago

  where I was interviewing like mayor

  daley and Barack Obama and rod

  Blagojevich anneliese political people

  in delhi

  yeah that was like my first it was

  through my school also is kind of an

  internship but then I continue doing it

  during the summer so that was that was

  really fun and but I I needed to get out

  of Chicago I'm i grew up there and I

  went to college there as time to get out

  so i moved to new york and i applied to

  basically every job that existed i

  applied to work at frommer's travel and

  they thought it was a joke but i think

  the first the first job interview I had

  in New York was at the wall street

  journal for a job that was basically

  copying and pasting stuff from the print

  CMS into the web CMS and i didn't i

  didn't work there i ended up getting a

  job at forbes writing about text so

  that's that's how i got into it but I

  always wanted to kind of start my own

  thing and do my own thing

  uh my you know the story I've told a

  couple times with my dad was in the

  advertising industry in chicago and i

  was growing up he said he left his big

  firm to start his own agency and I

  thought that was really cool you know

  working for yourself small shop a few

  people get get to go on a three-week

  road trip around France if you want to

  in the summer that kind of stuff so my

  goal was always to to do something on my

  own and the last year or so it's a tally

  Business Insider I started to think

  about you know how I could kind of plot

  my eggs that there and i wanted to start

  a bunch of sites i wanted i started this

  travel site in 2004 but I never really

  did anything with it i wanted to start a

  food site and a cooking show and all

  this stuff but I realized that the thing

  that I was most known for and probably

  did the best was the tech stuff so the

  first side i did after i left with splat

  f & and I did that pretty full time for

  like four months

  you know I wrote three or four long post

  today and it was fun and and then the

  company that I was working with for the

  ads this company called say media they

  acquired readwriteweb and they wanted me

  to work with with them on that so i

  joined them as a contributor for that

  too so I'm kind of all over the place

  right now I'm actually starting off to

  another company this summer doing

  travel apps for the iPhone but i did it

  i don't have anything to say about that

  ahead just started like two days ago

  so anyway so we're talking about split

  off and bitter but now and one thing I

  just before we go on to the twitter

  stuff I I thought it was an interesting

  name when you started it because i

  always called it it's the references to

  the cloverleaf on the command key

  exactly some people call that splat and

  they'll say like to do command that I i

  say command though like if you want to

  do the shortcut for find I i have always

  said command F so and that was breaking

  a habit i had from my childhood of

  saying open laptop yeah open Apple F and

  then I really really had the guy I don't

  forget when I broke that habit but it

  was it was like in the late nineties and

  I finally switched the same command

  command F command g4 find again i I've

  never heard splat I've heard me i guess

  i've heard people call it splat but I've

  never really and I didn't know I wasn't

  sure if that was something that was

  unique to you know I I was like did my

  dad make that up because his business

  partner called it that too and that's

  just what we call it around the house I

  mean we started using our first Mac was

  an LLC in like at home in like nineteen

  ninety-four or something like that or

  three I don't know and then we had like

  a tu SI + 2 c-i and i had my first

  perform on all the all the all that

  stuff actually found some really great

  old Mac stuff that i'm going to post it

  I think maybe next week last time I was

  home in Chicago but i don't wanna I'm

  not going to spoil it but anyway yeah we

  call it this black key i don't know why

  so I I grew up before I you know I i was

  trying to find a name for my text I

  didn't want to just host it from dot-com

  or it

  dan frommer dot-com or something like

  that I wanted to be something that I

  could kind of a you know extend away

  from me a little if I ever if I ever

  want to grow it you know forever want to

  hire staff or if someone ever sued me

  and wanted to bankrupt me or something

  like that so i googled splat and you

  know it showed up is like some someone

  had written a website about it being or

  not maybe on our website but maybe it's

  mentioned is like an alternative name on

  the command key wikipedia page or

  something like that so I am i all right

  it's not just

  me I can I'll go with this is a short

  domain was available was you know eight

  bucks from godaddy so i went with its

  it's kind of weird but people like dude

  what splash how splash going and that's

  that's actually split my I like it I

  like it as a name and it's also very

  difficult to find a six character

  dot-com right and and that the extra the

  twitter account was not available and I

  was like oh man sucks but then I found

  out that I knew the people who had the

  twitter account they were a start-up in

  New York called single platform so if

  you like

  yeah take a bunch of letters out of ya

  yes they were using it as like a test

  account to Like Tweet out some automated

  list so I emailed the CEOs you know I

  had met a couple times and I was like

  hey can I have this Twitter account and

  so yeah they hooked me up with that

  sounds pretty sweet

  they just got bought for many millions

  of dollars so good for them

  hopefully a who it's because of me my

  last question about the name is what

  what is the F in reference to

  is it is it specifically about the find

  command which splat f is the universal

  shortcut for or is the f4 Frommer it's

  for Frommer and that's kind of my yeah I

  i really want to keep it now you know

  that I thought about and I've been doing

  it for a while I want to keep it

  basically my site and only my sight

  forever you know kind of just do it as

  much or as little time as it is it can

  that will never order all right

  exactly that's got no legs yeah one guy

  going in sight

  yeah but at its cool you know it's it's

  fine door its full screen and some apps

  are like 05 a conference I could call it

  splatter full screen or nobody should

  ever use that for full screen it should

  never be anything other than find you

  time to those have to tell me the apps

  that do that and I'll I'm gonna have

  them uh I think it's VLC that's horrible

  yeah my god what of course it's BLC she

  said yeah right yeah i remember the

  first version of textmate had a like a

  command like that wasn't print but it

  was something related to print that that

  they that they bound to option p and

  I can't have commands that our only

  option something because how else would

  you that's how you type pie right like

  if it is so crazy like it and it was in

  Greece they must be going nuts right i

  have no idea it's like it's just one of

  those weird things where it's because

  I've I'm so ingrained in the mac and

  apple that there's like a a grammar to

  it like when you hear somebody to speaks

  english as a second language and you

  just forgive all of these grammatical

  mistakes there's a grammar to picking

  command key shortcuts that fit with the

  platform and somebody who's like new to

  writing mac software will get it all

  wrong and it to me it's it you just like

  pull down the menu and look at the

  commands and the the shortcuts and it's

  like oh my god you're nuts command F for

  something other than find totally i

  remember switching from Cork to like I

  don't know some you know kind of on the

  web started coming out and I was using

  other software to do web graphics and

  not just print stuff and all the

  commands that new from Cork we're like

  totally different things in whatever the

  other interface photoshop or sometimes

  was totally confusing

  yeah is everything made sense it was

  like you know I run around all the stuff

  so yeah yeah that's the one that always

  got me and I was always a cork guy to

  was that and it was also a function of

  the relatively smaller displays of the

  era that huge huge shortcut in all of

  those apps was the ability to turn the

  cursor into the hand so you could drag

  the canvas around interesting and in

  court you held down the option key and

  then you that cursor would turn into a

  hand no matter what you were doing what

  mode you're in and you could drag the

  page around the screen at school and in

  all the adobe apps it was the spacebar

  oh yeah and I could never ever get used

  that cuz I spent ninety percent of my

  time and cork and ten percent of my time

  and say photoshop or illustrator and and

  always when I went to do that would hold

  down the option key and click and

  instead I'm like changing a Bezier curve

  or something like that

  as you know it's you know adobe still

  screws with you like that like that i

  have like a real photo shop at home but

  then at work I had photoshop elements

  and the key to do so if you're selecting

  an area and photoshop and you want to be

  a perfect square right you hold the

  shift key down guy that makes square but

  in Photoshop Elements it's the control

  key i I don't know why not

  maybe they're pulling that from windows

  or something I don't know but it's just

  completely throws me off every single

  time which was on a daily basis I was

  trying to crop photos at work and all

  the other thing that made the quick

  version of that shortcut more logical

  was even if you're in the middle of

  typing a sentence so you're in text

  editing mode if you hold down the option

  key the cursor will change to a hand and

  you could drag with adobe's where you

  hold down the spacebar if you were

  typing something and you hit space it's

  going to insert a space you had to leave

  accented in mode before you could

  actually even use the command so it

  always made me it made me angry

  alright so we're going to talk about

  Twitter but before we do that I want to

  do the first thank our first sponsor and

  our first sponsor is a terrific

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  of Alex electricity and it's the first

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  series of interact interactive stories

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  smart inquisitive boy who wants to

  discover the origins of electricity so

  is it a game is it a book it it's sort

  of all of the above it is really really

  well done it is obviously it's for

  children but i think it's almost like a

  Pixar movie and that it's it's also

  easily I i went through the whole thing

  and had a blast

  the artwork is all hand drawn already

  quality the music is so good that it's

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  learning about science you're learning

  about electricity but it's just fun it

  is like I don't even know where to draw

  the line on this app between why they're

  calling it a interactive book or a game

  an educational game it

  it is a perfect perfect example of the

  sort of thing you can do on the ipad

  that I just don't think you could have

  done before it is absolutely not just

  like a static book with a couple of

  buttons you can click to play sounds it

  is interactive you move stuff around but

  it involves reading you touch something

  everything you touch shows up the word

  show up on screen to help kids learn to

  read a whole bunch of fun really really


  I 499 in the app store for the ipad and

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  electricity you can learn more about it

  at a website The Adventures of Alex

  dot-com anybody with the grade-school

  kids absolutely go look at this app

  you're going to love it your kids are

  going to love it and I think them for

  sponsoring the show isn't that cool i I

  don't have kids but I remember you know

  yeah being yet not yet but being I

  remember being a kid and you know books

  are like 20 bucks they were of course

  they were static we're lucky you know

  they were color and they were cool but

  the stuff the kids get these days

  they're really really spoil our

  absolutely and I'm for 499 and I don't

  it is a remarkable the artwork is

  astounding I mean it is easy I when I i

  would go to a bookstore and buy the

  equivalent book for my kid for fifteen

  bucks with this level of artwork and the

  size you get you an ipad sighs book

  easily 15 bucks for a kids book on it is

  way more way more engaging

  I think oh and I should also add I don't

  I honestly have no idea how big guard

  our spanish-speaking contention is but

  it's all the entire thing is available

  in both the spanish english so i don't

  know maybe it's even a good way for kids

  to start learning spanish nice yeah

  amazingly well done just it's just

  incredibly the production values are

  just absolutely top-tier could not be

  better done

  it's a terrific app anyway twitter well

  yeah so let's let's talk about Twitter

  you wrote a piece on splat f right the

  right before the July fourth called

  understanding twitter i don't want to

  begin to summarize it because I thought

  it was you just nailed it but i'll let

  you take it from here

  sure and you know so the context is that

  once again there's this kind of shit

  storm of so Twitter you know the twitter

  posted a blog post oh no end of the

  world coming and there and and of course

  in typical Twitter fashions a little

  vague you know it's kind of written in

  the the California vernacular and and

  you don't really we don't really know

  what they mean but there's their kind of

  suggesting that their kind of

  reiterating that they don't think people

  should be building Twitter clients

  anymore and that there's changes coming

  to the API and all that stuff

  api terms and and of course no one knows

  what that means because they did they

  don't really spell it out they will

  someday I'm sure and then they'll

  probably a massage it again there but

  you know the fundamental question is

  what's happening to this beloved Twitter

  of ours right now in the post is the

  post from Twitter was ominous I thought

  and and part of what makes i thought was

  ominous wasn't that it flat out said

  things like this is going where that's

  going away but it was like you alluded

  to this but the tone of it was this sort

  of marketing ease doublespeak right and

  part of that is just that's kind of the

  way they talk out there which is which

  is fine you know it's cool and that you

  know I know Michael sippy the guy who

  wrote it right all right seems that i

  don't know how much of it he actually

  wrote but yeah you i'm sure you've known

  for a long time he's a great dude

  so you know we I don't know what Twitter

  is going to do but the the post that I

  wrote and you know the post that I like

  to write are you know my background is

  it as a business was this business

  journalist and a lot of the talk that

  you know a lot of the writing and

  discussion that we do about apple and

  apps and startups and products is about

  the product and the design and the user

  experience and that's wonderful but

  there's also a business involved for a

  lot of these companies now not all of

  them you know that the model right now

  in Silicon Valley is get a get a million

  bucks get 10 million users cell company

  450 million bucks or something like that

  if you're lucky you know if you're lucky

  you get a billion dollars if you're if

  you're not lucky you get 20 million and

  a job at face

  book or something like that and and for

  many years that was kind of maybe what

  Twitter was was angling for you know

  they were raising they could raise

  basically unlimited amounts of money at

  increasing valuation so no one was

  getting screwed people were getting rich

  in fact you know early employees

  executives founders that kind of stuff

  and there was absolutely no pressure to

  to build a business because you know

  maybe someday every every minute that

  they spent trying to build a business in

  2009 would have been wasted you know

  that their their mission at that point

  was to get to whatever a hundred million

  billion users or something like that and

  that's still part of their mission that

  they talk about but at some point it

  seems that Twitter made a decision and

  actually there's a video where to

  Costello the CEO of Twitter is talking

  about this where they realized you know

  what no we actually want to keep Twitter

  to ourselves we don't want to sell the

  google we don't want to sell the

  facebook we you know we want to keep

  twitter as Twitter so you know well you

  could raise money for ever and ever and

  ever to do that but it now especially

  they have to well you will then do it

  forever and ever and ever right you

  can't do it that's true okay i retract

  you can't because then what happens

  so right now is you know it's time to

  build a business it's time to to figure

  out whether Twitter can make money for

  itself or not

  and right now you know that had all

  these different business models that

  were a an opportunity for them that I in

  our article and what 2009 or something

  we're busy stone was talking about how

  they're going to start selling premium

  pro services at some point well that

  never happened but there's any number of

  different business models that Twitter

  could choose and they've chosen

  advertising part of that is because of

  the audience thighs they have part of it

  is because dick costolo has been trying

  to do real-time social advertising

  forever that was kind of his thing at

  feedburner that's what i've heard he was

  working on a Google after it was

  acquired after feedburner was acquired

  and now you know that's kind of the

  thing that he could probably do the best

  twitter so it in the comments of my post

  some of them

  really good you know talking about how

  there's all kinds of different other

  business models data you know selling

  data mining and all that kind of stuff

  but clearly the business model the

  twitter has chosen is advertising and

  you know that that means that there's

  gonna have to be some changes to Twitter

  hope you know i hope that as someone who

  was sitting in front of Twitter probably

  for 10 hours a day not actively but it's

  sitting there open on my computer for 10

  12 hours a day

  I personally hope they don't change it

  you know degraded to a point that I

  don't find it interesting and amusing

  and useful anymore but certainly they're

  going to have to do some things to

  attempt to make money because they

  weren't before

  so and there's something I i am like you

  I am personally very invested in twitter

  as as something I use all day and it

  also makes it makes me a lot of money i

  don't know about you but the traffic

  that I get from Twitter you know it

  doesn't pay my rent but it you know buys

  dinner a couple days a week and I know

  once a month or something like that

  I you know that is true I i assume

  though i'm not quite sure though whether

  the I mean it

  twitter urls are at the top of my

  incoming referral list every day i mean

  i'd only I honestly should probably

  rejigger my analytics to not even count

  them because they're so disproportionate

  you know Tico links are always at the


  I don't know though if Twitter didn't

  exist or went away or or or changed in a

  way such that the daring fireball

  audience would no longer use it i'm not

  sure that it would decrease my

  readership it's just that I think people

  would get to it in a different way maybe

  I don't know but it's certainly there

  and of course like what we can't really

  we will never know you know is where I'm

  more concerned about a professionally is

  that I get a and a remarkable amount of

  the stuff that I linked to from the

  people i follow on twitter like I

  absolutely when I see somebody who you

  know has you know is that that that that

  logic you go through when you decide

  should I follow this person or not like

  you get you see they're at

  username in a comment stream or you know

  a conversation and Twitter parlance and

  hey this person seems interesting and

  i'll load up their profile and look at

  like maybe their last days worth of

  tweets and if i see two links and

  they're like the last just within the

  last day to things like wow that's

  interesting maybe i should post that the

  daring fireball boom that's a follow

  yeah and after years of this I have you

  know my incoming twitter stream is a to

  me a gold mine of material

  I don't know what I would do without

  that I i think i haven't touched on RSS

  reader since 2008 maybe since you know I

  it's all twitter for me and I

  unsubscribe from pretty much every

  newsletter i was getting a it's really

  kind of my main incoming source of


  so insult news entertainment social i

  find a lot you know find music and

  videos to watch on their books to read

  all kinds of stuff so it's really an

  amazing service and I you know it and I

  I think you'll agree with me i really

  hope that whatever changes happen

  don't don't ruin Twitter you know and i

  think they're actually sensitive to that

  to you know they cut the kind of the

  pushback that I got was that to my

  article you know from a uniform from

  concerned people was well you know

  Twitter cares about the product more

  than they care about the revenue now i

  don't know if that means Twitter cares

  about the product vision that they have

  that maybe if widely different than


  twitter or that you know that they are

  that they care about what what exists

  today and the whole developer ecosystem

  and an excellent apps like like Tweetbot

  and that sort of stuff because the end

  secondarily the other reason that I'm so

  personally invested in it is the literal

  social aspect of it

  we're not talking about it and as a RSS

  feed or a way of finding information but

  the way that I stay in touch with

  friends who I don't see very frequently

  and its limbs crazy and at the beginning

  back in 2006 when I first signed up I

  never really anticipated that it would

  grow in that

  way that I would feel like it's the way

  that I stay connected to a lot of

  friends in a way like I've often

  described it as the the modern-day water

  cooler for the workday the brilliance of

  twitter is that in hindsight I mean it

  really and I think so many of the

  world's best ideas and ideas that have

  gone on to change the world and make you

  know tons of money for somebody

  somewhere along the line in hindsight

  art like head slapping the obvious like

  Twitter conceptually is is one of the

  simplest things ever conceived you sign

  up you choose whose messages to see and

  everybody who's involved can send these

  140 character portal fewer messages that

  are nothing but text and the only people

  who see them are the people who have

  chosen to see those from you that's it

  and you know and obviously it's evolved

  a bit since then and there taking it in

  new directions now with these embedded

  things but they're still kind of doing

  it kind of cleverly we're like like one

  of the new features they've rolled out

  on the website is if you link to a

  Kickstarter campaign and it recognizes

  that the URL is pointing to Kickstarter

  / you know whatever the the URL is for

  that campaign it instead of just showing

  you a link it shows you a little

  embedded I don't know what you would

  call it a little

  what would you call it go well I haven't

  seen the Kickstarter I haven't seen that

  it's like an embedded is that the video

  because if you could you do a YouTube

  video now you can actually watch the

  video straight in the stream even on

  your even in the iphone client which was

  kinda cool like a little template it's a

  little template with information about

  the campaign that's cool and you'd like

  a little widget or some yeah widget is

  probably not perfect and it's sort of

  exactly along the same lines a lot of

  stuff is evolving in this way where if

  you know what it is and and it's a known

  thing that type of thing instead of just

  showing it as as something like a URL

  which really in the original vision of

  the web was never even meant to be user

  exposed i mean that's like a developer

  thing but we've just know they're so

  useful that we've passed around but if

  you know it's a Kickstarter campaign

  and you know how you can format into a

  widget the basic it just a Kickstarter

  campaign that's what they show you so

  it's sort of like what Siri does and

  what Google now does with search results

  for things like sports scores you know

  what was the score of the the all-star

  game and well I know exactly what you

  mean by that is a baseball game and I

  can format it exactly right for showing

  you the results of the baseball game you

  know and that's where they're sort of

  taking twitter but input wise you're

  still you don't have to like create the

  widget you don't you're not going

  through this complex creation to post

  the tweet where you have to format a

  widget you just paste in a URL to a

  Kickstarter campaign and and what I'm

  wondering is if that's better or I i

  guess it's better I mean you're getting

  more information but it is adding

  complexity and wait to the Twitter

  experience you know one of the things

  that I love the most about twitter is

  completely just how simple it is and at

  every time they add more to it

  so did you ever use the the activity

  view of Twitter seldom yeah it's kind of

  buried maybe on purpose i don't know it

  basically tells you what other people

  are doing on twitter so i could see you

  know what you're favoriting for faving

  over it again who you're following that

  kind of stuff and I think that the

  people at Twitter actually are really

  gung-ho about that and I'm wondering if

  they're going to ever try to put that

  sort of stuff into the feed and that

  would be like really kind of disruptive

  to what to Twitter legacy experience has

  been and I wonder if that might be why

  they're starting to kind of push

  developers down i don't know that's what

  kind of my crazy my wacky s idea of like

  what what they might be doing with it

  going forward by I had no idea my

  concern with the direction are going is

  that to me adding all that rich stuff

  into the stream it breaks the scan

  ability by which i mean like remember

  the old days of email where all you

  would see when you go to read your email

  as a list of subjects and you know

  they're marked read and unread with

  Boulder some

  things like that are bullets and then

  you'd see the who it is and what the

  subject is which will give you some idea

  of you know you knew before you click on

  the message what it would be and then

  you click on the message to read it and

  there's a lot of clicking or you up and

  downing on the arrow keys or something

  like that and now think about the way

  Apple has gone and other people too i

  mean i know and i know outlook i think

  outlook maybe even pioneered this but

  this idea that the list of messages

  would in addition to just who and the

  subject would show you the first couple

  of like maybe the first sentence or so

  or to two or three lines of the email in

  the list of messages with all of a

  sudden you don't you don't even have to

  open some of those messages you can

  actually get the gist of it and if it's

  a really short email you could read the

  whole thing right in the list I I always

  resisted that like I i love the old

  Eudora where it was just the subject and

  i forgot what i switch to or maybe it

  was like you'd or pro or something like

  that when the then you you almost or

  maybe his mail app i remember with with

  OS 10 male that app and and then you

  kind of have to have the preview and


  oh I think maybe it was Netscape

  remember netscape communicator that was

  like the biggest bloated that was the

  worst well you know what that when it's

  a funny analogy though because isn't

  that isn't that the concern about the

  direction twitter is going that they're

  going to take this thing that was simple

  and it was so light that took no

  bandwidth the down low and now you're

  fast on your phone and now you're

  downloading like YouTube metadata and

  you know and and 300 k photo I'm by

  their price run down but you know images

  and all this stuff and I but but maybe

  that and this goes back to like the

  business thing well maybe that's a

  better environment for ads maybe if they

  want to sell and add to whatever

  chevrolet chevy wants not only their

  Promoted Tweet but they also want their

  youtube video to show up in the stream

  or something like that and and and maybe

  Twitter's trying to train us to click on

  more stuff within the tweet stream be to

  make the ad click through rate higher

  I don't know you don't like them the

  mismatch with email and that that

  preview is that email can be of

  arbitrary length and so some some

  messages maybe that preview gives you

  almost everything you need to know and

  in others it it isn't even more useful


  showing you any preview at all because

  the email is so long

  whereas Twitter all there is is the

  preview right that you don't have to you

  don't have to click the tweets to read

  the tweets you just read the list and

  they flow by and you have to the the

  hundred and forty character limit as

  frustrating as it can be sometimes when

  you have a hundred and sixty character

  thought it forces it's not like 140 in

  particular was magic like if they had

  chosen 148 instead or a hundred and

  fifty or something like that would make

  no difference but by having a relatively

  terse thing something like my at reply

  stream immediately after i post a longer

  article the daring fireball is

  incredibly more useful for me to go

  through than my email you know to get

  feedback from readers and thoughts and

  and stuff like that it's almost a

  perfect length because it's long enough

  that you can have like a real idea but

  it's not too long that you can't have

  like too many ideas and that i almost

  wish that

  comments like on I you know and what you

  have comments often during fireball i

  turn the monitors but if just to see how

  how it worked but I wish that comments

  had like a 140 limit you know because

  then people could could give me their

  two cents and then that was it you don't

  have to read a 6 paragraph essay so it's

  almost a perfect limit and it's very

  scalable it and you know I I can't say

  this enough like mobile the fact that

  Twitter is so mobile-friendly is so huge

  for the service but also for the

  business I think I mean if you look at

  where everything is going in mobile and

  you look at how completely behind

  facebook is and some of the other big

  companies are like that's such a huge

  advantage for twitter that the product

  and you know in theory that add product

  as well are super friendly 22 small

  screens and and you know slow

  connections so it is I I definitely

  consider Twitter to be the effective the

  equivalent of comments for daring

  fireball it yeah and it in its for me

  it's been way better i think it's worked

  out way better than if I had in every

  way than if

  I had actually ever added traditional

  comments too daring fireball and I can't

  imagine in hindsight it's so in so many

  ways I just can't imagine how I did the

  site for the first four or five years

  without it and it's fine now also funny

  something like having a Mac without the

  internet right you're like you're

  unplugged for a few hours like what do I

  do with this thing while and it's funny

  to me that Twitter is about as old as

  the iphone because there you know and I

  either very very much married to me and

  I know do I sign up for twitter i think

  it's mike november two thousand six so a

  little bit before the iphone was

  announced and six seven months before it

  actually shipped but in the grand scheme

  of things that's pretty close and one of

  the big things i immediately started

  doing with my iphone the day I got it

  was using Twitter on the iphone which at

  the time required the the mobile site

  where you can jailbreak and use what was

  a twinkle or something like that on

  twitter if it was a jailbreak perfect

  but that also as to how do you have I

  didn't have the first iphone but the

  reason that I wanted one so badly one of

  the main reasons was twitter i was stuck

  on like a sprint contract with the palm

  treo so i have to wait for the 3g but no

  it is the iphone and Twitter go so well

  together and that's why I'm actually

  happy that apple and Twitter kind of

  work together w the original MDOT was was meant for pre iphone

  mobile phones that could render HTML so

  it was super super rudimentary I mean it

  worked it was good for reading but it

  was really I mean it was really meant

  for like like a blackberry that could

  render HTML not not something like

  mobile safari did you see they are they

  updated that this week also there was

  something yesterday I don't know

  yeah they belong in a long since you

  know gone into full-on html5 pushing the

  limits of what a mobile web thing can do

  i don't i'm not quite sure I still don't

  know why they do that though because

  their app and why would you

  I don't know why you would want to use

  that instead of a nap and the only

  phones that are capable of of taking

  advantage of the everything they do on

  their new mobile site are ones that have

  apps available right well so the new but

  then so that I guess that what

  they just recently rebuilt was the old

  mobile site which was not it's not html5

  it's like the old technology and they're

  testing it on feature phones and that

  kind of stuff

  well I didn't say that yeah just I think

  it came out you last night or something

  like that so that the thing that that's

  that the message that and nick bilton

  had a good post about this but the

  message was you know the Twitter one

  Twitter wants to have a consistent user

  experience and I think kind of the the

  put up or shut up that you know as a

  user that i would say to them is well

  then do it you know because you know

  here we have the ipad app which is

  completely not the same as the iPhone

  app even close you know there's there's

  big features that are missing the mac

  app is completely probably deserted I

  don't you no matter if you know anything

  i don't know about it

  I know a little bit more than ok got it

  but it's it is a legit is kobby ously I

  mean the most important i don't think

  it's dead

  I do think there will be an update but

  it's clearly a low the lowest priority

  of everything and anything they have and

  the danger is even though they by others

  I am i understanding is that they

  definitely intend to update it but at a

  low enough priority even if you intend

  to get around to it you never do

  right because there's always something

  of one of the higher priority things

  that that rises a top it but it mes jute

  have you have you have you have a new

  macbook pro retina display idea i don't

  like its Twitter that the twitter app is

  it's all unreadable

  yeah because the way just a technical

  level the way that it was engineered

  does all the drawing to an off-screen

  thing and then pushes it to the screen

  but that means even text is not retina

  whereas more almost all apps even if

  they're not updated for retina it's the

  stuff like the buttons and the icons

  that are not retina but text is retina

  automatically which is familiar to

  anybody who upgraded like a knife

  you know just like with the idea of the

  12 the iphone four before the ABS retina

  at least text was retina well with the

  twitter app for mac even the texts and


  and it's it's I mean it's just

  unbelievably unreadable you just got to

  think that Apple is leaning on them a

  little too kind of take care of that

  right i mean it is showing them off in

  the where i think it was in the keynote

  right for the Notification Center and

  all that stuff so yeah I would think so

  especially with the way that now you can

  in mountain-lion you know that mountain

  lion games the the iOS like ability to

  add a system-level at your twitter


  ah presumably they'll don't have the

  same little promotion hey get the

  twitter app in appstore I think the fact

  that they but there is no way that Apple

  is going to promote that Apple it looks

  like this i mean it looks so bad on the

  retina display that it would if you

  thought Twitter was important that would

  make you say well i'm not buying this

  computer yet because it's horrendous

  that doesn't affect that it supports the

  notifications it all mean that they have

  to at least update it for that I hope so

  i think I because i don't think the

  current app itself could support

  notification center that is what was

  sending notifications to right now I

  don't think anything so I I think

  they'll fix that I hope so

  I don't know so bottom line what do you

  think what do you think how you think

  it's going to work out with twitter do

  you think Twitter is going to shoot

  shoot the ability for third-party

  clients to work

  that's the year that i have that's the

  fair that's the fear that that the most

  of us have is that the direction are

  going is that they're going to say okay

  third part where you know there they'll

  spin it in the direction of this

  consistent interface and they buy

  consistent interface they mean our

  interface our website and our apps and

  you'll either go to or

  you'll use the Twitter dot app for your

  platform and that's it

  so here's what we're missing we're

  missing the the data of like what number

  what percent of tweets are sent

  currently from outside client right and

  I my guess is it is minuscule Ryan that

  it's largely my guests also is that

  those tweets are disproportionately from

  high popular people you know people who

  are like

  like us like people who don't just

  follow me because they know me

  personally but follow me because I'm the

  guy rides daring fireball and Michael

  you I i would bet that it's more early

  twitter users than late twitter users

  like if you look at the first 10 million

  users and then the last the most recent

  10 million users i bet 99% of the most

  recent ones only use official twitter

  stuff and the first 10 million it's

  probably you know disproportionately

  using third-party apps because that's

  what we grew up with right like we had a

  terrific and twinkle and Tweety and all

  these other things but now that people

  now they don't know they don't know

  about that stuff so and and Twitter as

  time and time again made decisions that

  are in the favor of the next 50 million

  hundred million users at the expense of

  the first you know batch of users so I I

  don't know I I don't think they're I

  don't think the old one day just turn

  off the API to clients but they might

  and that's kind of crazy 21 at one

  option they would have would by the way

  which is like okay we could just start

  spitting the ads into Tweetbot and

  correct that but that revenue with you

  and then the way that Google Adsense you

  know brings google adds to the whole web

  they could bring Twitter adds to the

  whole twitter ecosystem but i think that

  probably not a I think they're not

  really betting on that the way they

  maybe once were right and I also if they

  want to change the ads or something and

  then that you know they don't have any

  control over tweet bots display or

  anything like that so and you know like

  an idea that i know it everybody you

  know you people out there listening to

  the show i'm sure there's did

  ninety-five percent of them are thinking

  the same thing i'm about to say which is

  why not just let people pay and if you

  pay then you can use third-party client

  up you know pick charge me twenty

  dollars a year and then I have pro


  around and I can use third-party clients

  and other people don't and the masses of

  course most people won't pay and i'll

  just use / the truck free

  twitter app and for those of us know who

  really really care will do it will just

  pay twenty bucks and that might not be

  good for the Tweetbot people that might

  really put a damper and you know because

  it's one thing to pay four bucks for the

  app or three bucks for the app and

  that's it you pay once and then use the

  app and it might be something different

  if you had to pay fifteen or twenty

  bucks a year just to have your account

  upgraded to that but I just don't think

  twitter has any interest in that

  whatsoever in the same way that Google

  doesn't let you pay twenty bucks to get

  a search our ad free search results

  right and then also gets back to my post

  little witches it's not that Twitter

  needs to start making money it's that

  they need to figure out how to make a

  lot of money because you know this is

  not 19 if they started doing that in

  2007 and you know made a couple million

  bucks a year and that was could have

  been pretty cool back then but you know

  that they have publicly kind of leak

  that they want to have a billion dollar

  ad business by 2014

  so right you know you're not going to

  make a billion dollars from

  subscriptions right you know i don't

  think anyone you know maybe comcast us

  right even if even if you said and I

  think let's just throw out a ballpark

  number that that five dollars in revenue

  per year per user from the ads is

  probably I mean that might be reasonable

  you know that if they have 200 million

  users and they make an average they make

  a billion dollars in advertising that's

  like five dollars per user

  so why not let me give you fifteen

  dollars which is three times the average

  you get from the ads why not just let me

  give you that money to keep using these

  third-party clients even if they don't

  show the ads but it it it's not that

  they don't want the money from you the

  one person it's that it doesn't work out

  the aggregate right every every person

  that that they take out of the potential

  add value in population shrinks their

  you know their reach to the advertisers

  right notice that's their big sales

  pitches hey we have you know a hundred

  200 million users by ads here it's the

  fact that they need that billion-dollar


  not exactly they don't really it doesn't

  really work out if it's just fifteen

  dollars from John Gruber so he totally

  yeah it's mr. dollar idea doesn't work

  then then they have to find another one

  because you know that there's there's

  never a point where they won't have to

  find a billion-dollar idea right

  no I mean who are the companies that

  they're looking to join are looking to

  join facebook all advertising google all

  advertising apples a huge company but

  they sell hardware so that actually

  relevant to them now there's not making


  I don't think and there's Yahoo Yahoo

  makes you know it has a melt multiple

  billion dollar advertising business I

  think AOL might also but there aren't

  that many of them you know especially

  especially on mobile and mobile

  advertising is actually a surprisingly

  small industry you know it i think it's

  in the billions but it's not i don't

  think it's in the tens of billions so

  it's and this is actually an opportunity

  for them to really be a pioneer so they

  cannot take it seriously but I I i hope

  they don't do anything's mean

  ok I could live with it but would I

  would I think would be a bad move if

  they said if they instead of cutting off

  the API if they cut off new access to

  the API another and i think that's also

  something a lot of people worry that

  they're going to do which is another

  word say okay no more third-party

  clients but the ones who are there are

  grandfathered in and you're allowed to

  keep going

  I think I could live with that because

  i'm pretty happy with the developers who

  are making Twitter clients today and i

  really trust that that you know there's

  I feel like we have a still have a

  plethora of amazing Twitter clients like

  my third favorite twitter client is a

  fantastic twitter client that I would be

  happy to use if the first two went away

  you know 345 deep on the iphone i think

  I haven't thought about that is what I'm

  ability i wonder if they would

  yeah I think that's a very good

  possibility that they're just going to

  say no more I could live with that but i

  still think it would be a mistake

  because i don't think you should ever

  bet against

  the innovations that could come out of

  the future that somebody year from now

  is going to come up with an idea for a

  twitter client that is truly innovative

  and the thing that you know I really

  hope that Twitter remembers is that so

  much of what we take preferred granted

  now with twitter both with apps and just

  the way people use it was not from them

  that it was invented by users Garrett

  Murray had to post the other day about

  the invention of at replies that not

  only that wasn't afraid

  only that wasn't afraid

  that was awesome that wasn't a feature

  that wasn't something people did it was

  like all of a sudden like couple of

  months in people just started doing it

  and it does i do he attributed it to

  flicker and I do think that's right

  we're flickr for years had a sort of it

  wasn't a feature it was just like a what

  would you call it like a tradition among

  the users that you know if you wanted in

  a comment stream some of you post a

  photo to flickr and three or four of

  your friends would post comments and i

  want to write back to the one you wrote

  you wrote like the second comment was

  you i would write at and then from dome

  because that's your flickr name colon in

  other words this comment is a response

  to from domes 22 above and it wasn't

  hooked up in anyway it wasn't you know

  there was no a technical connection it

  was just a convention the word I'm

  looking for was it was just like a

  convention mentioned yeah that's right

  I Twitter didn't come up with that it

  was just something the user started

  doing at a you know at the same time

  like it late 2006 early two thousand

  seven or something like that

  hashtags right which is like the one

  year which is like their marketing thing

  now you know right i got every every

  time I turn the TV on there's a there's

  a hashtag or two of them you know it's

  unbelievable to me and I money i don't

  even use hashtags I still think it's I

  think it's line on it it's gross it's

  alright i don't i only you know well I

  use them ironically or like you know by

  force right I would never I don't

  willingly but i was watching the arm i

  was watching the home run derby

  yeah and they were both like so they're

  teaching during the hat during the home

  the major league baseball home run derby

  they're showing tweets from from guys

  like Justin Verlander I who stunk up the

  goddamn game the next night by the way

  ruin the American League chances of

  getting a World Series home field

  advantage nice job for Lander you choker

  anyway and that you know and just the

  fact that like when you turn on the home

  run derby and there's you know on it on

  the show while you're watching it

  Justin Verlander's tweets showing up and

  CC Sabathia and and these guys that the

  the the magnitude of that sort of public

  awareness of the

  service is unbelievable it's just truly

  unbelievable i mean i think that this

  couple times but the person or your team

  at Twitter whose job it is to get

  hashtags on TV like those people made

  her a bonus the dinner like they've it

  sits on the MP notes on the backboard of

  the NBA and on every commercial it's on

  my wife watches these shows where every

  scene has a different hashtag and for

  you know for amusement i looked at the

  tweets that were on that hashtag and

  they're pretty hilarious in a lot of

  like teenage girls and that kind of

  stuff will know what it means how you

  show hash hash shine pound sign and a

  word and it's just people know

  oh that's a thing on twitter and you can

  go to Twitter and type that in and see

  what everybody else is is typing it's an

  amazing that's that's just astounding

  and that tells me that twitter i mean

  okay could go away because maybe you

  price so this could say this about

  myspace URLs a few years ago but it's

  going to be hard to torch itself so even

  if they did I think piss off a sizable

  population I think that they would be

  okay i think i think that whatever

  losers that they use it was whatever

  users they lose i think they'll gain

  that back right well I mean just stop

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  boom what a great name for a nap but I

  so i just picked up boom and I'm so

  happy that you told me that exists

  because you know I've been using itunes

  of course has an equalizer and it makes

  music sound grade but Spotify does not

  and even if you pay extra for the high

  quality music on Spotify it still sounds

  pretty muddy I have

  be nice speakers and it just it makes me

  not want to use Spotify so because they

  don't have an equaliser least it didn't

  last time I look at starbucks it was

  really excited to look for do did you

  ever use there is a great old rogue

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  yes I used to love that everything is it

  reminds me a little of that doesn't do

  that quite the same thing but it's

  anything that makes your system audio

  some betters is awesome in my book so

  i'm on pump that I have it now

  yeah and that's a terrific example the

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  oh sounds like it's coming out of my

  fridge or something like that so or

  coming out of a speaker that you've got

  in a drawer like close behind the drawer

  now it's great and it is a perfect

  example is any app that you listen to

  audio from that itself doesn't have

  equalizer controls and you want to deal

  with it i just get boom it works across

  your whole system

  have you seen the like that i think it's

  HP has pc laptops with Beats Audio is

  I've never tried those but i can't

  imagine those are that actually is

  better i don't i don't know it just it

  always looks to me is like wow this is

  this kind of trashy and other phone

  wasn't their phone that came on it

  yeah it's like HTC bought beats yes HT

  yeah it's like that I can't think of a

  better example of why HTC is losing its

  you know that all the momentum that had

  built up then the fact that it's going

  to go out and buy beats like that's just

  the at such as such a lame mainstream

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  yeah doesn't seem like you needed to do

  that just seems italic that make this

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  yep let's talk tablets

  yes let's have been thinking about them

  i had a dream about having weird dreams

  I don't know what that's about I had a

  weird dream

  a.s.a Steve Jobs stream where I had a

  five inch iPad and he actually

  everystevejobsvideo yells at me about

  something stupid but why would you want

  to have a 5-inch ipad that's that's

  idiotic or something like that but

  I was actually I was in Korea a few in a

  couple months ago and they the that

  galaxy note is is pretty big barely at

  least in terms of literally i sense in

  stores yet literally it's it's quite big

  there but it was in all the windows and

  all the the little cellphone shops and

  actually sell a lot of people using it

  you know maybe that was just the no

  i-i've I've heard that that's true and

  I've because I've made fun of the galaxy

  note that the galaxy note is a 5-inch

  phone comes with a stylus and it is

  truly enormous even if you've seen like

  a Galaxy Nexus or something I mean this

  5 inches is a styling but it is

  Samsung's reported you know like it what

  their best selling phones are worldwide

  and it's up there and and apparently

  it's really really popular not that

  popular in the US but apparently really

  popular and Asia we're gonna say were

  Korea as a Korea which is you know the

  homeless of samsung um yeah and so that

  was so surprising to me and I I think

  your take is right on the dandelions

  post that you link to recently which is

  that the the kind of the tweener sizes

  are interesting i would not want to

  replace my iphone with one but I could

  see myself using a tablet in more places

  if it were not so bulky right well and

  another way I just want i filed a note

  from 15 minutes ago on the show and we

  were talking about 11 vs 13 in chairs

  and i think that the this purported I

  still you know I've used the word

  purported more times in the last two

  weeks then I think the last year

  combined but this purported ipad mini

  that 7.5 inches diagonal to me why would

  they do that well to me it's why do they

  make an 11 and a 13 inch air

  hmm you know and I everything I've heard

  is that the 13-inch air is the best


  I like the 11-inch though I really do my

  thinking is number 1i have my eyes are

  really still good enough that I don't

  mind how small the screen is and to my

  thinking is if you're going to go

  portable go portable you know and I want

  a big big ass 30 inch display on my desk

  and I want the smallest possible thing

  to use on an airplane and

  on my lap and stuff like that and that's

  why i bought the that's the exact

  conversation i had with the guy at the

  apple store when i bought the 11 chair

  he's like you know what he he's not

  allowed to give me advice but I was like

  fuck it man i'm going with the smallest

  this one possible which was used to be

  my phone buying strategy to is like

  which sony ericsson feature phone can i

  buy this the literally the smallest

  phone possible and can you know cannon

  little digital cameras too so it makes

  sense and and I don't think that 7-inch

  tablets have sold poorly because they're

  7-inch tablets i think it's just because

  they most of them have terrible software

  and they suck like I think that this

  that it will announce I'm with you I'm

  calling at the 8-inch I'm glad if if it

  had if it's comes out i think it will be

  phenomenally successful not just because

  of the portability which I think people

  who think about this stuff will get that

  but i think the price thing is really

  going to be big for the same reason that

  you know you link to my site this week

  and I you know you think that there were

  the main reason that the ipod blew up so

  big was the the mother mini and the nano

  like that i think that they have and

  what made its yellow mainstream was that

  it's it's cheap enough that you can kind

  of buy it and yeah it's not gonna fit

  all your music but it doesn't matter

  because you know most people don't buy

  albums anyway they buy single so what do

  they care

  I remember it well that the time that

  that was the big thing with that when

  the ipad ipod mini shipped and it was

  right I was fifty dollars difference

  from the lower end bigger white ipod

  which I think was 15 gigabytes at the

  time so I'm and maybe i'm wrong i think

  it was like 249 for the mini and 299 for

  the 15 gigabyte thing in there and

  everybody was wine the world when you

  spend 50 more bucks and get and I think

  it was even five gigabytes it was four

  gigabytes on the mini you get more than

  three times the storage but I've heard

  this numerous times is that that the

  average i don't know what the numbers at

  now but that the average ipod user only

  had like two gigabytes of music a liar

  yeah the whole library early

  at that point most people you know and I

  was cute the average was skewed heavily

  by the people with huge libraries and

  that the masses that like the teenager

  media and yeah like the median yeah they

  like a gig or something I can you know

  in the teenagers they just listen to the

  same 30 songs over and over again you

  know exactly and i think that i think

  that we like week old school Mac people

  like we we rationalize every fifty

  dollars we spend you know but in normal

  people that go to the store they're like

  I kinda want an ipad all this one's 50

  bucks cheaper than buying it you know

  and it's and also i think that 250 200

  dollar price is actually meaningful like

  that's a kind of your getting into

  impulse purchase range there i think

  apple hit it out of the park with the

  original ipod in 2001 where they said a

  thousand songs in your pocket and people

  here that and every almost everybody

  here's a thousand songs on a device

  that's all I'll never I don't have a

  thousand songs it whether they did or

  not they have no idea but that that

  number was big enough 200 cds that's

  like in right and even when they when

  they reduced it the original ipod had

  five gigabyte drive and the at first

  ipod mini and we had a 4 gigabyte drive

  but they had since switched the default

  format from mp3 to AAC and that got like

  it the the compression increase was

  enough that they could still say a

  thousand songs and which is good enough

  that they've never it in 12 years or 11

  years they've you know thousand state

  they already had the right number of

  storage space and was it the mini or the

  nano that's deep pulled out of like the

  little tiny pocket in the genes nano

  okay yeah admit when the nano came out

  that just blew my mind I was like how is

  it that smaller that's that's crazy i

  gotta make a note to ask about that

  because i still think that his genes had

  to be raped because you were as 50 ones

  and I've tried that with with a nano and

  it doesn't quite fit

  I think that he had like a big pair of

  jeans like the with it wasn't cheating

  with wise but i still think that in

  terms of the depth i think you had to

  have a rig pair of jeans that be a great

  like forensic look back into the and for

  people who don't think that I you know


  into the critical issues surrounding

  Apple incorporated come on the case a

  pruner is that the yeah pronounce that

  you do a separator of the Zapruder i

  believe the printer

  ok so I one thing that you said a long

  time ago thats intrigue me is the you

  know the potential someday for a bigger

  ipad that's actually something that i

  would love like I you know I'm staring

  right now at my switched off 27-inch

  imac across the room and I'm like man I

  would love like a I don't know it a 18

  inch iPad on my lap on the couch that

  would be kind of cool you could do all

  sorts of stuff with that it would

  probably expensive and fragile and that

  sort of stuff but i would pay a thousand

  bucks for that'd be pretty cool

  yeah I i do and i think i think


  it's inevitable because i really do

  think that the I you know I just grew up

  with with the iphone but I really think

  that iOS is to the computing landscape

  today what the mac was to pcs in 1984

  and don't get obsessed if you went back

  historically and and wanted to argue you

  traveled back in time to 1985 and got in

  an argument with John dvorak about the

  future of computing like don't get hung

  up on the fact that the mac you have

  today this is 1985 is only nine inches

  in black and white and you know it

  doesn't even ship with a hard drive is

  only got a floppy drive just take a step

  back and think about the way that

  technology is inevitably advancing like

  the screen is not going to be nine

  inches in black-and-white forever right

  the same thing with the iOS like that

  don't get hung up on the fact that the

  ipad shipped at nine point seven inches

  it's just a starting point you know I

  think it's going to go in both


  I although i think that the big

  difference though is that I think that I

  think they can do this i really do think

  that they can go to eight inches

  parentheses 7.5 inches exactly happened

  she's without changing the software at

  all i think that apps that are you know

  1024 x 768 apps that run on the ipad

  ad today we'll just run at 1024 x 768

  two inches smaller diagonally about what

  specifically at work I think it's eighty

  percent area or something like that or

  sixty-six percent of the area that it

  will work out i think if they go bigger

  tho or when they go bigger i do think

  that will be one of those developers

  schisms wear em you know existing apps

  will run in a in a mode where they're

  blown up but to really take advantage of

  it you're going to have to start over

  you know you don't have to do yet a new

  sighs well also at that point you might

  want more than one app on the screen at

  a time or at least multiple windows

  something like that yes I'm which is the

  interesting thing from windows 8 i'm a

  no I don't have that much to say about

  it but that to me the idea that they're

  already kind of thinking about that sort

  of stuff how to have multiple apps on

  screen at the same time usually by far

  away i think the single most intriguing

  idea in all of windows 8 as a tablet OS

  is the and what they call it didn't call

  it docking snapping i think those you

  snap it out of snaps right yeah that and

  then that the way that those apps can

  talk to each other whatever that was hot

  to the that the hand all you're going to

  have you can have your email taking up a

  list of one-third and a web browser

  taking up the other two-thirds and so

  you could sit there and as you read your

  email and people say I mean a huge part

  of my email is people sending links and

  so one of the in efficiencies of going

  through my email on the ipad is that I'm

  constantly flipping between male and

  safari and back

  totally i know it's a huge inconvenience

  but I can totally imagine a when a you

  know how doing it with just those two

  things on screen a narrow skinny column

  of email messages and ask where a nice

  wide square of web browser content would

  make it away easier and more efficient

  to go through to go through emails on a

  tablet and you know I so I watch a lot

  of video on the ipad but it would be

  nice to have twitter open at the same

  time to you know for commercial breaks

  or whatever you know

  much in the baseball game it's kind of

  annoying to stop the MLB TV app at a

  quick of stream open up Twitter you know

  it's at some yet another perfect example

  and maybe even a better example of

  something that can really get by with a

  skinnies sort of get one-third sliver of

  the window

  yep easily i think the best idea that

  they've had and you know they can hang

  our hat on the fact that their first

  nobody else's as solve that and they're

  doing it in i think in a very smart way

  where it's not like an arbitrary you get

  to move that divider around and make it

  forty sixty or thirty 565 it's nope it's

  one-third two-thirds i think but

  whatever it is it snaps into place and

  you don't have to decide and developers

  can take advantage of that and they know

  they only have to code it to take

  advantage of this you know these two

  proportions maybe i'll be full screen

  maybe I'll be two-thirds maybe i'll be

  one-third that's it so this is kind of

  looking bigger picture at this but what

  why do you think that mean you know we

  why do you think the ipad is is so

  successful and and the other ones are

  but like you think that that it's

  actually possible that this ipad and iOS

  platform theory concept thing is

  actually like the Apple can actually

  hold on and be a winner with this for

  for the long-term like is is apple now

  good enough at winning that they can

  really follow through with this i do i

  do think so and I think that it's

  they've gotten it to the point where

  they have to keep innovating and I do

  think it is institution i think it is

  one of the core values of the company is

  is a sort of healthy paranoia that you

  don't take success for granted and think

  you're done and you keep pushing and

  that you know I really think that the

  way you know and it was so much smaller

  states as important as the ipod was to

  apples resurgence as a company and the

  way that it really made them a

  mass-market company and gotten people

  who never bought anything from apple

  before to buy a couple of things from


  and the way that I remember going to the

  mall in 2003 and having hearing

  teenagers talk about going to the ipod


  yeah it really made the retail stores

  you know right you know it really helped

  make the retail stores of success and

  retail stores have become nothing but in

  the grand scheme of things the amount of

  money they made selling ipods pales in

  comparison to the money they're making

  now selling iphones and ipads it is it's

  smaller states but the way that they

  evolved those ipods year after year

  after year every year either shrinking


  introducing sibling form factors that

  we're in addition to you know we're not

  just getting rid of the old one will

  keep the old one if you want us to 80

  gigabytes of storage that's the one to

  get but now we've got this new one that

  is thinner and now we're adding color

  and now we're adding video and now you

  know what even make ridiculous they'll

  even make mistakes they even do things

  like make one that didn't have any

  buttons and then a year later be like an

  hour or the fat nano right and kept

  aggressively pushing the price down

  right so that you can keep your after

  year you could keep getting one for

  fifty dollars less until all of a sudden

  and all of a sudden they hit these marks

  and I you know it's one of those things

  where Apple i think has been you know

  often surprisingly open in public i

  believe it was shoulder one time onstage

  you just said like 199 is a magic price

  point and you know now that once we hit

  it you know in it but next slide it was

  like a graph of like sales and you know

  the sales just shot up because it's a

  magic price point and consumers minds

  and we're so happy to be able to say

  this year we're going to 149 you know

  and just don't go designs I'm i think it

  really bodes well for the for their

  future with this stuff that they're not

  going to they're not stuck on the on

  this idea i don't think that the i pad

  starts at four ninety-nine are now it's

  399 like I think they'll be aggressive

  it at moving down in price i think so

  too and I if they can hit you know 200

  or 250 with the the smaller ipad if it

  actually happens i think it's gonna be


  I mean I you know I love the retina

  display i think most people pray

  could care less for if they could save

  200 bucks so I think it could easily

  sell you know at least as many or maybe

  even like twice as more real you know

  big iPads in addition to whatever big

  iPads this so and you know and clearly i

  mean no doubt in my mind I think they're

  gonna do it i think they're going to do

  it this year I don't think it's gonna

  have a Retina display and just going to

  have a 1024 x 768 display but obviously

  either a year from now or two years from

  now they're gonna come out with what

  assuming the thing sells well it's going

  to come out with one with a Retina


  yep it's a no-brainer future upgrade

  here's the other thing that makes me

  think that they're gonna do it and

  they're going to be really really

  aggressive on price is that that event

  they had new york last winner for

  textbooks and the ibookstore which is

  all about education and the big catch

  with that whole initiative is this is

  great these this whole thing sounds


  the prices are great too great idea I

  think it's clearly a great idea for the

  future of textbooks but how do you how

  do you get this into schools if you need

  to buy a 499 device for every kid to get

  started right and i think that for the

  education market alone getting it to a

  radically lower price point to get in

  the door is huge and combine that with

  the fact that who would be best suited

  for a device where the on screen tap

  targets or a little bit smaller and text

  is rendered smaller is it funny that was

  just thinking of saying that to that's

  exactly like it's kiss right yeah

  exactly so I who's got the eyes that are

  best suited to reading a thing that may

  be ideally is best rendered at nine

  point seven inches but is now rendered

  at 7.5 inches kids right who's got the

  fingers that are going to work better on

  a keyboard that smaller kids

  yep now totally kids and and also women

  to remember the palm palm had like a

  smaller trio and that was huge with

  women yeah the pic after hours call but

  kids and when I I'd i don't think i'll

  get one but i think i think they'll be


  yeah maybe maybe I'll go into that most

  but i don't think the google things

  going to sell that well though I haven't

  I haven't tried it

  the google nexus 7 or whatever I just

  don't have any they don't really have

  good retail distribution and I think

  that it's gotten a lot of attention in

  the tech press because it's google so

  people feel obligated to write about it

  and I'm sure it's fine but i don't think

  that many people are going to buy it

  I you know and I wonder if it doesn't

  sell well that one of the things people

  might draw from the wall of you know it

  should so well because they finally

  licked all the a lot of these interface

  problems at the interface is better it

  looks better

  there's no doubt my i believe that the

  thing is actually scrolls a lot better

  because I even android 4.2 on the Galaxy

  Nexus phone really solved or not it's

  not certainly not up to apple caliber

  for for animation smoothness and stuff

  like that but it was a lot closer they

  really got over hump and if they really

  worked a lot on between 4.0 and 4.1 on

  improving that should at least be good

  enough but i think that you it gets back

  to the old days in the nineties were mad

  where Apple struggled with the mac

  against windows

  despite having a superior interface that

  that's not enough that he'll be aight a

  lot of people don't even notice that

  sort of thing or don't care right and be

  it's like maybe their ninth priority on

  the on the list of things I mean first

  of all well you know i did like a pole

  at at business insider I don't know a

  couple years ago and out and I asked

  like if you're going to buy a tablet

  where would you buy it you know what you

  buy it from bestbuy would you buy from a

  carrier store would you buy from

  whatever and by far the biggest response

  was I'll go to the apple store right now

  it's like okay well you can't buy Google

  tablet at the apple store right so yeah

  I I think it's great i'm glad that the

  Google is doing stuff like this

  good for them I just I don't think

  anyone's going to be picking that one up

  I want to do a follow-up i have I don't

  have a huge number of points I want to

  do a follow-up to the ipad mini piece

  that i wrote earlier this week with a

  couple more points of contention from

  readers and other people who are out

  there and there's

  one of them is still this idea that

  Apple wouldn't do a new device with a

  retina display without a retina display

  that all the new devices come with

  retina displays and so they're not going

  to do it without Rena I don't think

  that's true and way I look at it I think

  I added this to the article after I

  published it but that the better way to

  think of it is they've never shipped a

  new iOS form factor that started retina

  they start non-retina and then as they

  groove their ability to hit that price

  point two years later three years later

  they come out with the retina I don't

  think they'll hesitate and I think it

  will help establish it that look the

  best one is the big one that's the one

  that's retina this one is the cheap one

  right and you know they're still selling

  their very happily selling the 3s which

  is 3gs which is you know kind of crappy

  can write it to for us so i don't think

  that you know i don't think they care

  that much in and they're still selling

  the air with a non retina display and

  every mac except one of them and and by

  the way this is tim cook the guy who

  probably loves his ipod shuffle so right

  you know not everything is about and I

  think that is one of the differences

  between the old apple in the new apple

  and that you know that it's not

  necessarily that they want to sell

  flimsy stuff but not everything has to

  be the absolute best thing that you

  could buy because that's not the way to

  the mass market so what about the the

  came out on the same day reports last

  week from Bloomberg in the wall street

  journal that Apple is going to do a

  smaller ipad did that to me reeks of a

  leak a deliberately from apple i think

  it has to be I mean you know that they

  like you they don't like me so much but

  Apple PR is is the best in the business

  I mean they are really don't like you

  now I don't know I just like you or they

  don't like you

  uh somewhere between those 2i think

  interesting i'll put in a good word for


  yeah thanks now i don't know how they do

  like me but they I don't get stuff like

  that they don't they don't get to know

  people ask me people ask me stuff like

  that and when I find out stuff like i do

  i've heard stuff about the

  penny I never heard something about the

  ipad mini from Apple PR I've heard stuff

  from like I call them the rank-and-file

  I almost think that there might even be

  like a I don't know if there's like a

  sec type stuff but I think they're yeah

  some of this stuff about like material

  disclosures have to go to up

  I don't actually know I'm making this up

  but it seems like they have to give it

  to like the wall street journal or

  Bloomberg or something that has like

  enough reach that it's going to be

  actually widely disclosed so there's no

  like insider trading type stuff I know I

  i may have completely invented that in

  my head I don't know I wouldn't i

  wouldn't be surprised if there's

  ramifications but to me it's it's

  apple's version of mud right feirense

  our hideout like it is not coincidental

  that they did that the 2i would a guy

  I'd Bloomberg and wall street journal is

  clearly the bat the most-read business

  publication Bloomberg is certainly one

  of the one of the most read and

  certainly they're both very highly

  respected and in terms of relationship

  with apple and previous leaks of stuff

  like that they've both you know they're

  both phases Bloomberg was the first one

  that got this story that Steve Jobs is

  having a liver transplant the wall

  street journal but I don't know if

  doesn't like I don't think so either i

  don't think so either phone we talk to

  ya I'd swear that was like I actually

  don't think that was a leak i think that

  was good reporting yeah I'm just saying

  no reputation wise though no they

  absolutely there those are the kinds of

  places where you know if it's in print

  there you can almost reasonably assume

  that it's completely true

  well my favorite example of that is with

  the journal which was before WWDC 2001

  ever when Apple was going to announce

  the switch to Intel which I didn't

  believe and I wrote a piece it's one of

  probably one of the best like you know

  had John Gruber st claim chatter I was a

  skeptic I really was until friday before

  the WWDC keynote and the Journal said

  Apple is going to switch to Intel and i

  wrote a piece on during fireballs like I

  don't know how to interpret this because

  if the Wall Street Journal says it's

  going to happen i think it's going to

  happen because they're not saying it

  might happen they're saying it's going

  to happen in there the journal and

  they're never wrong or they wouldn't be

  wrong unless they had a they wouldn't

  publish this if they didn't know it was

  true but on the other hand as far as i

  know this is technically impossible

  there's no way Apple can do this unless

  they've figured out a way to emulate

  power pc software at full speed and so

  in a sense I was right because that's

  actually what they did do with rosetta

  where they had this emulator that ran at

  here 24 on unbelievably efficient binary

  translation performance way way better

  than like the old 68k emulator on

  powerpc etcetera like that but the fact

  that the journal printed it made me say

  it got me to wrap my mind around the

  fact that it was that it was going to

  happen so ever it is one lesson I've

  learned from Apple's is never

  underestimate their ability to do

  something that seemed physically and

  scientifically impossible the day before

  yea which was like how I felt about the

  iphone and the retina and the retina

  iphone4 when that came out to I was like

  oh my god

  you can even do that like I don't even

  know so but then also but didn't the

  Wall Street Journal report this year

  that that Apple was going to launch

  something like developer analytics

  software at WWDC I don't remember was

  weird yeah there was a there was

  something about that I don't mom anyway

  as I was saying like Apple Apple just

  like that you know as an almost a lot of

  the stuff they do there's the really

  brilliant at PR and it doing little

  things like that at like perfectly

  timing their launch dates to come

  between this thing and a thing and you

  know I I don't know who decided that

  Michael Dell would be the guy who gets

  screwed by giving his CES keynote at the

  exact time of the iphone iphone keno but

  that was just every that in hindsight

  that was brilliant

  a lot of the stuff like they do like

  that is really smart so you know I would

  absolutely not be surprised at all that

  was deliberate and you know 11 last one

  last thing before we wrap up the show

  that i want to run

  you on this and this is the idea that

  the 199 price point and I I could

  totally see that Apple's said that 7.5

  inch tablet maybe it'll start at 249

  I can't believe it would be to 99 I

  really can't i think it has to be 249 if

  it's not 199 but i think they could do

  one if they if they can do 199 they will

  do it because they don't want to leave

  that price umbrella for these other

  tablets like the nexus 7 or kindle fire

  or something like that but the argument

  i've gotten I've seen it on Twitter for

  a couple of smart people is that they

  and I got an email to is that they can't

  sell 199 ipad at eight inches next to a

  199 ipod touch that so much smaller that

  if this thing is eight inches and 199

  how can this thing that's so much

  smaller cost 199 too and they can't

  really reduce the price of the ipod

  touch by that much

  I don't I don't I week that they maybe

  they can

  well i don't think they need to though I

  think yeah I don't think they do either

  that they're totally different things I

  mean one is something you give to a kid

  to play to play games on the funnest

  ipod / and then another one maybe not uh

  I wouldn't worry about that that's

  that's the kind of thing the nit nit

  picky type thing like that when i used

  to write articles saying of course Apple

  is going to do a verizon iphone they

  have to and people go no that means they

  would have to support cdma the right

  that's adding more complexity the apple

  doesn't do complexity and it's like

  they'll do complexity for 90 million

  subscriber carrier you're damn right

  they were right it's not just like the

  only the one and only cdma carriers in

  the US was you know uh you know

  bum Phillips that metropcs ER right now

  sorry I US cellular or whatever in

  Chicago they have their yeah well with

  the million subscribers

  yeah this is so sorry I'm so worried

  about that i think i think what actually

  might be a bigger is what Amazon

  announces later this year or identity

  thief is the kindle fire going to get is

  it a is it going to be much better or

  only a little better and be will it be a

  hundred bucks or something like that

  because you know there's a great the

  fraud manju of course always right smart

  stuff but his thing

  but amazon yesterday was smart and he's

  written some good stuff on amazon

  recently but you know as we've seen they

  will ruthlessly do crazy stuff just to

  do it you know and and if Apple has to

  respond i I don't know how much they

  would actually have to respond to a $99

  tablet but it might force them to make

  it 199 instead of 249 who I I wonder who

  knows I I the other thing is that you

  should save so much money so and and

  there's only a finite number of these

  they can make itself so the same like

  the original iphone i think the first

  time you ever link to me is when i wrote

  some article about how Apple would have

  to make to sell twice as many iphones to

  make the same amount of profit on the

  you know on the iphone one after they

  did the price cut or something like that

  and yeah whatever it doesn't matter

  because they only made like 10 million

  of them so who you even cares you know

  this is the first ipod ipod ipad mini or

  whatever they call it like the prime

  make 10 15 million of them if they if

  the margins sucks on them it's doesn't

  matter anyway because the iphone and has

  such a huge margin it and then they have

  put our 70 billion dollars in the bank

  or something like that so far more so

  who cares i think i think they'll do

  whatever they think they need to do to

  do it right and not necessarily base it

  on profitability or something like that

  right on well and the other thing too

  with the holes can they sell it

  alongside the ipod touch at almost the

  same price and I think the difference

  with these with it is it's it's

  different than with laptops with laptops

  the expectation that smaller is cheaper

  makes sense but that's because the

  minimum size and I think the 11-inch air

  is about as small as I would want Mac to

  be I think that the the the little light

  8-inch 9-inch pc laptops are way too

  small but even if they did if Apple were

  to do a 9 inch macbook air it would

  probably be even cheaper than the

  11-inch but that's because it's the

  these expenses the display is smaller

  and it's cheaper

  whereas the iphone and ipod touch are so

  small that there's an incredible amount

  of cost into just getting the thing to

  be that small and the miniaturization

  yeah and I think I I'm stealing this

  from somebody else on Twitter who

  pointed this i think i might have been

  my friend Evan Morgan but who pointed

  out that love that guy you really

  shouldn't think about when you compare

  the fact that the ipad cost more than

  the iphone you're you're locked into

  this us-centric certain a contract

  pricing and the rest of the world where

  lots and lots of people by their phones

  without a contract the iphone cost more

  than the ipad and way more

  ya-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-h like iphone cost

  more than an ipad even though i bought

  an unlocked iphone and it costs more

  than well take 700 bucks spire was like

  900 you get the big one else was like

  yeah totally

  yeah so i have a question what what what

  Apple brand do you think will last


  iPod iMac em they've already phased out

  ipod as this as a nap so that seems to

  me like they didn't care about it enough

  to make that the commute the media app

  any longer but i was wondering because

  it's like you know they still sell their

  they sell more ipods than mac still for

  you need a mac to make iOS software

  which brand which one will be a an

  active sku longer i hate to say it but

  i'm going to say ipod yeah that's right

  that's what I would have picked I think

  now maybe Mac but i don't know i don't

  know anyone I don't want to i know the

  reason main reason the mac exists is is

  that it does these things that you can't

  do on the ipad or can't do as well on

  the ipad including the fact that you

  needed to write i buy pet software

  that's not going to be forever like you

  love you know sooner than their enough

  sooner than all of us think you'll be

  able to write your apps on the iPad and

  maybe you'll require your hypothetical

  15 inch iPad yeah how do i run flash and

  the other thing I was going to ask you

  the good questions and that's a really

  good question which one which brand do

  you think will be around the longest i

  think the the

  the single brand that they have that has

  the better that it might outlive us all

  is ipad i can't imagine i think ipad is

  here is already at a point where it's

  here forever especially if it continues

  to be successful the way you know

  successful in the way it has been this

  is not at you know the phone who knows

  what's gonna happen you know that if the

  if it doesn't work in China and if

  Huawei knocks them well the thing that

  worried that that would have me bet

  against the iphone brand is that I could

  see I can foresee a future where some

  kind of networking technology exists

  that obliterates just completely

  disrupts and annihilates the carriers in

  its justthis you know it's the

  equivalent of Wi-Fi some other kind of

  IP over the air with sufficient range

  that you know the problem with going

  wifi-only now is that you can't get

  phone calls you're not on a Wi-Fi

  network and you know if you're in your

  car or whatever you're never gonna you

  can't get calls or anything

  whereas if there was some kind of super

  long range wireless thing that you know

  I could just totally see that happening

  where we don't call them phones anymore

  and you're not dealing with AT&T or

  Verizon or anything you're dealing with

  this new thing and therefore the iphone

  brand goes away and their apples don't

  make something that size but it's called

  something else called the itouch yeah I

  don't know but I I wouldn't bet on the

  iphone brand

  ya know that makes sense or or phone

  calls become something you know for your

  tweets or something like that or no

  interesting do do you get into any of

  this like wearable computer stuff like I

  I saw you a couple of those Kickstarter

  watch things but like you care about the

  Nike Fuel band or anything like that

  I don't even know what is that I don't

  know what that is okay well I'm I i

  don't know i think there's a future in

  that stuff I I don't know what it is i

  backed the I also back the pebble watch

  i think it's called yeah that I think

  that's what I think you know I don't

  even know where they did they send them

  out yet

  I back these i still haven't got my

  elevation doc yet exact these guys

  haven't either i have anything that's

  going to be first the new iphone with

  the new to call right

  I back all these Kickstarter prod

  projects and I'm glad to do it but it is

  actually kind of a nice surprise because

  it takes them long enough to ship the

  product that I kind of forget about it

  and it's like totally i'm getting a

  present for

  my former self yeah it's like Thank You

  2011 John Gruber what a very thoughtful

  gift this is an awesome doc from my


  yeah exactly forgot about it

  alright i'm going to call it a show yeah

  let's do that

  dan frommer thank you so much people can

  can can and should follow you it splat f

  dot com where you write your also

  writing it readwriteweb we're going to

  keep our eyes open for your your big

  feature on iceland iceland next week i'm

  looking forward to that from dome at

  from dome on Twitter and I want to thank

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