The Talk Show

6: Laggy by Any Standard, with Guy English


  you know one thing I've noticed i have

  noticed I thought about this last week

  that I'm better friends in general with

  programmers programmers make for good

  people in my opinion it better friends

  then what like other journalists yeah

  well you know it

  not that there's anything wrong with

  other journalists but I I don't know I

  to me there's something like the way

  that programmers minds work

  aah at I something about it appeals to

  me like one thing I've noticed over the

  years and I do you know we very seldom

  do this you and I sometimes once in


  very occasionally while we're at a

  conference will get together and have a

  drink or something like that

  yeah you're a bit of a teetotaler

  exactly nah its if we don't it's the all

  Syrians it's not like we get there and

  anybody really didn't general talks

  politics right but I have noticed over

  the years that two programmers of

  different political allegiances can have

  a reasonable discussion in a way that

  almost nobody else if one is a

  conservative the others a liberal you

  know a republican a democrat whatever

  whatever you guys have up there and and

  in Montreal but you could be on

  different sides and programmers can have

  because they're their minds work in a

  very logical way that they can have a

  reasonable discourse about politics

  that's not to say one is going to agree

  with the other but it it doesn't devolve

  into ad hominem arguments and it's

  interesting said I die agree

  actually I've had a lot of discussions

  with people that I don't agree with

  politically but it's always remained

  pretty civil and and i think you're

  right i think it's like the like an

  analytical one of you where the other

  guy has a good point well okay you

  accept the point and you move on because

  if you're arguing about design or

  something like that

  well that's always going to be

  subjective but there's an awful lot of

  programming when you're collaborating

  with someone where it's like math either

  works or it doesn't work right

  I mean ultimately your that the feature

  it works it doesn't mean I mean you may

  have designed poorly but it's very

  concrete like is a crash

  what does it actually achieve the result

  that you want

  right are you getting 60 frames per

  second or you not getting 60 frames per

  second and three yes three binary

  exactly and I feel that it makes it in

  the same way that works for technical

  arguments emerge for political arguments

  just just shooting the shit about movies

  it also makes for good conversation

  yeah and I could you can see that any

  movies is a bit different because it's

  getting subjected to that right like

  what's your 60 frames per second for a

  movie like what's your objective what

  are you trying to achieve kind of it's

  not obvious still makes it but there's

  that sort of mindset still makes for a

  good conversation that's why i do i just

  have once you know I get back and I

  catch up on sleep a little bit always

  occurs to me that i just have I have a

  great time at WWDC yeah I have a blasty

  and what I mean you've got it

  I mean you're very analytical going

  again so you probably think i'm not

  surprised that you'd find that I super

  refreshing right and you know even the

  journalists who were on the same beat

  the guys who work at macworld and stuff

  like that

  I mean they're you know they may not be

  programmers but they're be closer to

  being programmers than most people who

  can you know say that their writers and

  I only go very analytical he acts like a

  lot of analytical people right and I

  think that's why you know the like Jason

  cells podcast the incomparable where

  they talk about movies and science

  fiction and stuff like that that I did

  it's more interesting to me than when

  you're you know general-purpose science

  fiction movie podcast would be because

  their approach to it is is again

  analytical yeah gram a big financial and

  again they did a sect the subject and

  lovingly but they do look really good

  job of sort of tearing it down taking it

  apart and seeing what they like and

  don't like about it and when they

  disagree it is it's it's a good argument

  it's cooking right right to be getting

  in fights last week i don't remember i

  cannot yet a black either like tuesday

  morning and what happened that Amy could

  be an Amy and

  no maybe I know you know what she was

  very excited that you're going to be on

  the show this week I yeah she's and she

  actually said she might listen to it

  this time

  really yeah it's that's high praise she

  didn't even listen to table soon she was

  true that's true you know a couple

  people only that that they were like at

  the lab the live show last week they

  said that you know that all that noise

  in the back of the room you know that

  that that was your wife

  yeah it was also it was her who texted

  me that they've closed the ball

  oh is it yeah it is my dog both of them

  did it was that got to text right during

  the show

  awesome i consider it and decided to be


  right from my wife and from the guy who

  owns the podcast network i'm on there

  are the two guys they're the two people

  who who wanted the bar reopened rather

  than the turns into the show

  well i have to tell you like once the

  bar open date stop listening to your


  well my thigh while I listen after then

  went back and listened to it again

  cables awesome all cable is it's

  certainly very attractive fellow oh I

  keep saying that people that with it

  with bringing them up there for the live

  shows its cheating it's really like you

  know it's it's it's just cheating so you

  show up for your neighborhood

  three-on-three basketball game and you

  you've brought Kareem abdul-jabbar with

  you and even since seven foot two and I

  like personality-wise cable the cable

  series like the the size of Hockenberry

  on the side not the Hockenberry doesn't

  have a great personality but I mean he's

  got like it just a towering yeah immense

  uses is a giant of a personality right

  so you know what's funny i was trying to

  reach for some kind of baseball metaphor

  to describe cable but you went with the

  cream into butter one soon was trying to

  play your sports game but you beat me to


  well basketball so is a rare sport where

  you can it you can bring in a guy who's

  seven foot two and then that's it

  there's nothing anybody can do

  we're going to mean there's nothing in

  baseball that's quite like that mean you

  can have I guess a pickup game and if

  you brought in

  the top pitcher in the major leagues

  nobody is gonna hit the guy but it's not

  going to be quite as obscene as you know

  is 74 allegedly giant right now but I

  thought that the live show went well

  yeah yeah right my snap judgment on that

  though the bar situation was a and I

  couldn't really think about it or

  discuss it because cable and I were amid

  discussion but I'm just and that's why

  you I think that you make better

  decisions like that if you just have to

  make the decision install right you make

  the right one of my thought was

  everybody if if we will open the bar and

  it gets noisy in the back and people

  can't listen to the show they can always

  listen to the download version the next

  day or next week whenever whereas if we

  keep the bar closed they're never going

  to get another chance to have that drink

  I can't agree more

  that's what I didn't I listen to the

  show like the next day or whenever it

  came out walking around San Francisco

  and yeah that was a day so whenever I

  got a fellow cable thanks a lot for that

  might be my guest this week I should

  probably say is a guy English guy thanks

  for being here it's a pleasure

  so guys background you enter and how to

  describe what do you do what do you do

  I'm a programmer but you were you

  specializing graphics yeah more or less

  but yeah i mean is i worked in the pc

  game industry for years and did some

  messed up on the consoles like PSP stuff

  and then I left and joined your game me

  Bennett did a bunch of mac software and

  then when the iphone came out a started

  contracting I've done a lot of the work

  on games and graphics in particular

  right but you're like a guy you're a guy

  who's going to sweat the details on

  frames per second

  yeah you're gonna make your gonna make

  something that's supposed to animate

  you're going to sweat the details to

  make it smooth

  yes that's pretty much what i do i

  optimize stuff you know get to get the

  album's working figure out the pipeline

  to make the process work smoothly

  I'm I i still think I think that there's

  some other WWE Cena

  just to talk about ya think everybody is

  sort of talked the retina macbook pro

  more or less to death right but there is

  something about that that I don't I

  don't think I talked about this with

  cable last week because i don't i don't

  think it had the Machine long enough and

  you you've seen it too

  and the thing that got me and stop me if

  i did talk about this with cable adds

  all kind of a blur but that the pixels

  per inch is lower than on the ipad then

  on the iphone iphone is like 300 and

  some that ipad is 267 pixels-per-inch in

  that retina macbook pro is 220 pixels

  per inch right and so I kind of thought

  will make you know I know it's gonna

  look awesome but I kind of thought maybe

  it wouldn't look as awesome as the phone

  and iPad because it's just not as many

  pixels per inch and I know that part of

  that is about expected viewing distance

  from the screen and your tend to be

  further away from a 15-inch laptop then

  you are from an ipad and you tend to

  hold on iphone really close to your face

  but what I've found in the week now that

  I'm really using this machine is that

  text looks way better than on the even

  the phone in the ipad its support

  blowing me away that it looks even

  better that it actually makes it makes

  me start to see the pixels on the ipad

  in the iphone retina displays and I

  think I know what it is and it's the

  sub-pixel anti-aliasing m which is only

  on the mac and not on iOS for various

  reasons and i know some pixel

  anti-aliasing is still somewhat

  controversial amongst those of us who

  really care about like anti-aliasing

  algorithms because I know like Mike

  Maddux had a tweet a couple weeks ago he

  told everybody they should just turn it

  off that everything looks better if you

  don't if you don't have it

  yeah I and I guess I mean for anybody

  who doesn't know the difference

  I mean I don't want this is one of those

  things where I could take 20 minutes to

  explain it but on the mac it defaults to

  they call it best for LCD any idea is

  that you use the red green and blue

  subpixels that comprise each actual

  pixel on the screen use the physical

  location of them to do the anti-aliasing

  which if you zoom in if you take a

  screenshot and zoom it way up you

  actually get like these weird color

  fringes around the letters so if you

  have black text on a white background

  traditional anti-aliasing the

  anti-aliasing that would be done with

  shades of grey which makes sense common

  sense would tell you that's how you

  would make these pixels look smoother

  the curves look smoother with sub-pixel

  anti-aliasing it's actually colors and

  it looks really weird if you zoom in and

  some people if the pixels on your

  display a big enough can see it with

  your naked eye and that bothers them and

  it also does some weird things where it

  kind of makes i think on old older

  displays with bigger pixels it it makes

  the fonts look thicker chunkier it will

  chunkier than without any kind of

  anti-aliasing right if you get if you

  like but maybe you chunkier than with

  traditional grayscale anti-aliasing I

  think that makes them look like bolt

  makes everything look a little bolder

  you don't think so I don't think so

  because I mean the tradition gray scale

  and using all three of those pixels

  going to be lit up like subjects is

  gonna be lit up right right i don't know

  maybe you know what I have to see

  excited by side but either way there's

  visual artifacts and I i think that the

  idea was that if the pixels get small

  enough you don't have to worry about

  sub-pixel aunt is in that regular

  anti-aliasing is good enough because the

  pixels are so small but I using the

  macbook pro for a week

  I doesn't no doubt in my mind that that

  sub-pixel anti-aliasing still makes a

  difference it makes everything look it

  makes text look just impossibly good and

  you can see it because there are still

  parts and in mac OS 10.7 em stuff that

  what you're going to correctly there is

  one of the reasons i have you on the

  show is stuff that's drawn into a layer

  back view is that right is not is not

  doesn't get the sub-pixel entail

  Jason that's correct i'm 10.7 yeah and

  so you can see this here the easy way

  that everybody can see it is with the

  transparent menu bar that apple

  introduced a couple of versions of Mac

  os10 where you can see the half see your

  desktop through your menubar their texts

  in the menubar therefore it gets the non

  sub-pixel anti-aliasing and on the

  macbook retina MacBook Pro you can

  really see the difference

  I mean it looks good it certainly looks

  better than any text on a non-retina Mac

  but it doesn't look as good as the rest

  of the text throughout Mac os10 on that

  retina display so you okay well nice i

  looked at you know I looked at your

  reviewing and at the macworld one and i

  loved it i mean the text look amazing

  but I didn't you know I probably should

  have managed to zoom in and checked it

  alone but it didn't bother

  do you find it grading like no because

  almost everything is some pics on entire

  list right so it's just you know it's

  like it its it's not grading because

  it's like looking at very very good text

  and insanely very good text you can see

  the difference you can see you can start

  on the menu bar you can see pixels and

  if you get close enough when you're

  looking like inside like a safari window

  forget it you mean like can get as close

  as my it's really funny it's like I've

  spent this week like not really using it

  so much but like just like getting my

  nose up almost up against the screen and

  like trying to see the details and

  that's what I think that's what

  everybody does first time to get when

  they just stick your face right up to

  interest basically try to find pixel but

  it really does with text especially it

  is it to the naked eye you guys close

  why you just don't see pixels even the

  way you can when you get real close to

  the iphone 4 and stuff like that right

  well I mean so they don't do right think

  you know this but they don't do

  sub-pixel anti-aliasing on the devices

  because you can change the orientation

  and when you change the orientation you

  can rely on the layout of the sub-pixels

  the same way you can on desktop that was

  so amazing because I swear to you that

  was mine

  question and i believe that we have to

  I've asked you this privately like an

  instant messenger years ago when you

  you're my go-to guy for questions like

  that that was that was my question is if

  so why don't they do sub-pixel

  anti-aliasing on right okay too so and

  it's because it is so your answer is

  more or less because it actually relies

  on the order RGB obsessive pixels

  exactly the physical layout to be

  picture there you know going from left

  to right on your scheme screen it's our

  gbr gbr gbr gb and you can rely on that

  when you draw on your your shape your

  letter shape but now flip that so that

  it's in vertical orientation and it's no

  longer the same way right

  it's like it's RGB going downwards

  rather than going across so the

  algorithm has to change and it's

  basically just eat since you can't rely

  on lay out a bit where the subjects was

  going to be you can't really use the

  same algorithm and since the phone is so

  high density they just don't water even

  the original phone with high-density so

  one of the changes in mountain lion

  which references back to what i was

  saying before if one of the new things

  in mountain lion is that text in layer

  back views now gets the sub-pixel

  anti-aliasing yes and this has been a

  long time and it works right well it's

  not an easy thing to do because I'm like

  a layer is I'm trying to get at it

  describe it but in so if you think of

  and like you know I mean paper and you

  drawn something you can overlay it on

  something else you can see what's below

  it right and basically later like that

  you draw something on a layer and then

  you place it over something else you can

  see what's below it and you can posit

  the scene with it with a series of these

  sort of transparent layers now the issue

  with anti-aliasing text is that you need

  to auntie Lu set against the background

  so if you're drawing text into a

  transparent layer as you're drawing the

  text you don't know what the background

  is going to be as a background could be

  animated it could be animated exactly

  could be a lot of things so it's not

  obvious had

  it correctly antialiased text so they're

  fixing this mountain lion that there's

  change the way they handled entering the

  text so that it does actually managed to

  anti-alias in later back to you which is

  amazing because I think we'll talk about

  later but you know i'm working on mac

  app and then we add a plan to make

  anti-alias i lay back text work and it

  was going to be a huge pain in the ass

  to do but mountain lion just solves a

  problem for us if we don't need to tell

  me to worry about that we can come back

  to that later

  and so one of the things and weird

  another thing that we're going to come

  back to later but while we're on the

  anti-aliasing i should mention it is

  with the microsoft surface tablets which

  they're saying with their displays

  they're saying they have these cleartype

  HD and cleartype full HD displays and

  clear type is Microsoft's name for their

  anti-aliasing algorithm yeah and it


  anybody who's a nerd and really sweats

  these details will know that if you look

  at anti-alias text on mac and the same

  fonts like on a webpage say on Windows

  it looks different because they have a

  different anti-aliasing algorithm which

  some people prefers other people don't

  but they call it clear type right it's

  the original right so pixel

  anti-aliasing actually i believe that is

  true but i like what i think was did

  something on the Apple too but that's

  one of the things that stuck out to me

  was it everything from here exactly one

  of the things that that struck me that

  with the announcement was exactly what

  we just talked about was that that on

  the iOS devices you don't get sub-pixel

  anti-aliasing because you're going to

  rotate the display they can order it so

  then they say these things have clear

  type displays and I wonder how they did

  that and I believe what what were you

  gonna say I just redefined the term yeah

  that they're not really doing it has

  nothing to do with the old cleartype

  they're just reusing the nation

  in the same way that they're reusing

  surface right what you mean there's a

  nuclear type just means a higher density

  display that's my take on all right you

  ever see the old surface the big

  tabletop thing in person no I did once i

  saw one up at Drexel University of a

  couple of about a year ago I think

  sometime in the last year I was up there

  to do a little talk and a guy Ranna like

  a robotics engineering lab that invited

  me to do a little talk to your needle

  adelphia and they had a surface and let

  me play with it for a while and I could

  not believe how lag it was it was like

  giving latency is just dreadful like

  they had it and they were doing some

  cool stuff with that they were doing

  some really cool stuff with mapping with

  it like the grad students but they were

  just getting killed by the latency was

  just deadly I'm even if we I think even

  pre ipad you know everybody would agree

  with it was like he by any standards but

  compared to what everybody was used to

  it was it was horrendous

  yeah I don't know that it would have

  taken off regardless i mean it was sort

  of i was gonna take off

  that's right it's it was kind of

  expensive is big and bulky and how many

  people need that kind of stuff I thought

  it was a cool idea is pretty interesting

  but you don't want that ship the same as

  the iPhone so right i cannot believe you

  know what though I think long-term knows

  somebody is going to make something like

  that you know

  yeah I mean you know that 10 years from

  now wooden Apple have something that

  size we're running iOS that you could

  get me there's maybe maybe I think it's

  an interesting form factor I think you

  can do things in a shared space and

  collaborate with it in in an interesting

  way right it would be like to have

  nailed it but I think they've got

  they've got an idea that's pretty decent

  it would be to iOS like what the mac pro

  is to Mac os10 like something for video

  that they're only going to sell a very

  small sliver compared to the mass market

  but that you could charge a lot of money

  and the people who need it really want


  you know I can see their kind of thing

  in a store right totally or or you know

  there are all sorts of retail type

  situation and I think our classroom or

  something like that

  yeah take a shared space through very

  flexible workspace not to mention it's

  actually flat you can put stuff on it


  which is you know opens up a bunch of

  other interesting tips possibilities

  with the subject is all anti listen I

  know one way that everybody i always see

  it is when people are dicking around

  with CSS and using like transparent

  layers in CSS then instantly takes the

  text into the non sub-pixel anti-aliased

  right thing so I wonder if that gets

  fixed automatically now on 10-8 i don't

  know i have to look at that matters it's

  about the WebKit guys will make it work

  if the system supports that I bet they


  edid see some pretty fancy stuff so you

  know it's interesting I mean have you

  seen it have you do you know any

  candidate on that thing you know what

  but I'm thinking after I'm i was

  thinking that I should though but that's

  what i was thinking before I do finish

  my review i'm going to you know and I

  don't know I feel a little bad putting a

  beta on it a lot Apple owner but I feel

  like it even if it goes bad I can always

  just reinstall lion on the thing

  well I mean if you get with the USB

  Drive just love that and put it on that

  yeah yeah i guess so i don't know there

  might be I don't know and I think

  they're gonna care that you put that

  really don't think they're going to give


  yeah I don't think she'll but i do feel

  i would feel a little guilty mail it

  back to him like if it were breaking I

  go exactly it's like a brick

  thanks hon thanks man

  no I do and I don't know iight i to III

  tried to take good care of all my stuff

  i mean like my knock on wood my iphone

  4s is still like an in perfect shape but

  I with the Apple review stuff i take

  extra good care of it and i'm sure they

  actually don't care like if you mailed

  it back and it was like nicked up and

  add things on and stuff what do they

  care i mean i forgot to give the things

  out like candy but i feel like i don't

  know if it's it's like the sense of

  politeness like when you're in somebody

  else's home you know like you you you're

  more careful as careful as you are in

  your own home not to put your shoes on

  on the furniture

  I'm twice as careful and somebody else's

  home and that's what I feel like when

  I'm using the apple of existence right

  well I mean if it makes you feel any

  better I wouldn't trust anything that

  you emailed me back to being in your

  home for awhile either i just you know

  things going right in the furnace right

  is done with it

  that is true object that is what they do

  to that I mail it back to them and they

  just like white gloves they just turn it

  up and put it into an incinerator

  I'm bed they do the sensible thing to do

  right right into whatever the whatever

  they recycle the stuff you know somebody

  said you know anything about this just

  some sort of jumping all over the place

  you but uh there was the thing about the

  the macbook pro not being upgradeable

  and and that you can't get into a blonde

  that I fix-it guy he also said he talked

  to his pals in the recycling industry

  and that the way it's all glued together

  means that that they don't know how it

  could be recycled

  I thought that was nonsense because I

  thought if you wanted to recycle an

  apple product that you're not using

  anymore you just go into the apple store

  and say here i'm done with this thing

  and then it they just take it that's

  their problem

  ya done it i I've died I haven't done in

  a while I sort of let a lot of my old

  Apple kit that i own pile up but i was

  thinking I'd it actually reminded me

  that maybe i should bring some of this

  stuff in like do I really need a powerpc

  powerbook anymore

  probably not meeting maybe we get me

  dude shut up and stop calling macbook

  pros powerbooks if I actually but I is

  what I thought is it's not your problem

  you don't have to go it's not like you

  buy a macbook pro and when you want to

  recycle it you've got to go and pried

  apart with a screwdriver and separate

  the aluminum from the glass and all that

  you just give it to happen to their


  yeah and I mean I gotta you know yet to

  be born again and you know just takes

  one he calls up his recycling buddy be

  like hey you know how to recycle isn't

  as a no well it's not like you can't

  figure it out in audiences he's asked

  you silly that whole scandal is

  ridiculous to me i don't understand it

  at all and so it's designing you know I

  used to build my own pieces and stuff

  and that i'm still that's over right

  time i get inland I can't believe people

  at the thing that gets me is that

  everybody acts each time like it's a new

  story right i remember you used to be

  able to buy even on a Mac it wasn't even

  just a pc thing you could buy processor

  upgrades right like that magazines were

  macworld was full of it was a huge thing

  because your computer did cost it costs

  so much back then like you by like a new

  mac to see I and 1991 and it was like

  five grand and then like two years later

  you could buy like a a cpu upgrade for

  nine hundred dollars rather than buy a

  new four thousand dollars a computer

  well that was actually you know it's

  pretty pretty reasonable thing to do you

  know I mean I i don't think i ever

  bought this processor upgrade but it was

  always nice to know that you could write

  and I think that's sort of the comfort

  is what some people are missing but i

  think he nailed it with it with the the

  price when it's 5,000 bucks that's a lot

  of money trying to keep it going you

  know but when like like whats this red

  Mack 2211 i think it starts to 2020 $200

  us i mean which you know that's a chunk

  of change but it's less than half of

  what look it look at good max across you

  and it's good gonna last longer and it's

  a lot more usable and register I just

  really don't understand it if you didn't

  see this coming after the ipod shipped

  without you know double-a batteries i

  don't want to say it's been like 10

  years now right and you do pay a little

  bit of a premium but it's not as

  anywhere near as much as it used to be

  like seif forget who priced it out i

  think of it i think it was i think was

  Marcos podcast last week but pressure

  was Marcone and Dan talking about it

  where if you if you'd upgrade if you buy

  the old 15-inch macbook pro the new old

  one non-retina one and in the build

  order upgrade to an SSD and instead of

  spinning hard drive it it almost comes

  out to like more than the price of the

  macbook pro with retina display that has

  one built in and even if you like go to

  OWCA or one of those places and by the

  SSD yourself so you're not paying the

  Apple premium for it it still comes out

  about even like it's actually not that

  much of a premium for it

  lets you know obviously I think that

  they've got these things packed in a way

  that you know it

  there really are engineering trade-offs

  for that's the other thing that gets me

  is that people who make this assumption

  that Apple's doing this out of that of

  upgrades might and it's not about

  engineering problems i mean i can't

  prove that it is i can't prove that

  gluing the i forget what include

  something is glued in there but whatever

  it is that's glued rather than using

  screws i think it might be the SSD I

  can't prove that that's an engineering

  thing and that they're solving a real

  problem and that the not having little

  screw mounts makes it even thinner than

  it could be but I'm that's what i would

  bet that they're solving an engineering

  problem and that bet that to you

  I mean it why

  like what why would they bother it like

  there-there Apple things about the

  product there I don't think they'd spend

  a lot of time thinking about how to

  screw random people that want to upgrade

  their SSD this right does it drive don't

  you finish first you finish hers was

  gonna say yeah I think it's a byproduct

  that people can't mess with these things

  rather than the like an intent right I'd

  and I don't think it's any coincidence

  that as the devices get thinner and

  lighter that's when these trade-offs are

  made right right it's the air in its the

  air that that you can't replace the you

  know that the ram is soldered on the

  motherboard and edits on the 13-inch

  macbook pro which still has a

  traditional form factor

  there's still a little screw panel you

  can take off and get it out and it's

  when the macbook pro went to this

  quarter introduction and height that

  that they switched that I mean I think

  this I think the reason they have the

  old Mac the old-new macros and this one

  is it you know this is basically a

  shipping and was a prototype but it's a

  it's the next street is the next

  generation of stuff like when they ship

  the air and it was just as one unique

  sort of thing was a new approach

  I think this retina mac book pro is the

  same kind of thing I would

  ship this product we're gonna basically

  it's the it's showing the way forward

  it's like this is the way everything's

  gonna go we're going to ship this one

  we're gonna be eventually doing this

  sort of aesthetic and approach to the

  product across the entire line let me

  take a break here and thank our first

  sponsor do you use fantastic alki I do

  actually find it in fantastic all

  fantastical is our first sponsor and and

  the thing that always strikes me about

  fantastical is this

  in the old days I'm talking way back

  like beginning Mac os10 i think but

  certainly the mac OS 9 era Apple stayed

  away from making the apps that you use

  on a daily basis we didn't even ship mac

  OS didn't even ship with an email client

  the old days didn't have calendar didn't

  have an address book and eventually that

  I think that became untenable and they

  had to you know sort of everybody assume

  that your system is going to come with

  stuff like that so the good news was

  well there's a system-wide calendar and

  address book

  the bad news is that meant that

  third-party address books and calendars

  really really the sort of kind of got

  wiped out because they sort of their

  business model was based on the idea

  that there's an opportunity there and it

  was taken away

  well I I i think some funnies happened

  over the years though we're with some of

  these apps and I think I Cal is the

  first and foremost I think that's on

  everybody's hit list is one of the war

  steps apple makes a huge opportunity for

  third-party apps because it stinks i

  mean i have never heard anybody and

  anybody get started in Iran about ical

  I've never heard anybody stand up and

  defend it and say boy I really like that

  count fantastical is a is a calendar app

  for the mac and instead of trying to do

  the same thing as i can but with a

  better interface it is like a complete

  rethinking of how you interact with a

  calendar on your Mac it's a little thing

  that lives up in your menubar and you

  click it or you have a little lat

  you can assign a keyboard shortcut to

  drop it down just a little skinny panel

  that drops down from your menu bar shows

  you this month

  under eye and it shows you in a little

  list today tomorrow the next day next

  three days three four days of your

  events so here's some here's a calendar

  for the month

  here's your events and this is the part

  that gets me because this is the thing

  that's the worst about ical is when you

  want to make a new event you just type

  in a text field in plain language and it

  just parses it and as its parsing it

  it uses this this great interface to

  sort of show you what it thinks you're

  typing so if you just type talk show

  thursday 1pm it just knows that that the

  event name is talk show thursday it

  noses this next thursday and you type 1

  pianos you mean 1pm and hit return and

  boom there it is a new event on your

  calendar so instead of like the way I

  characterizing not starting that's every

  time where it's like you type the name

  and then you go over to the field and

  you pick a month and you go over to the

  next field and you pick a day and every

  single thing is like tab to a new field

  tab to a new field just one field you

  type in plaintext it does an amazing job

  guessing what you're doing and visually

  it's a beautiful app it is so convenient

  so it's great for two things that I

  Cal's totally crap for one what's going

  on what's on my schedule today tomorrow

  the next few days

  easy easy obvious interface for it and

  for new event creation you just can't

  beat it

  i would i would buy it even if it didn't

  even have a view i would buy fantastical

  just for the text field for creating new

  events I think you should want an ad i

  think it didn't because it's an

  unconventional app in that it sits in

  the menu bar rather than having a main

  window that's a good point i do think

  and I you know what I think the other

  reason that I don't think it would win a

  DA is the internal politics of it is

  that it makes ical look so bad Frank


  I'm you know it's a good a calibrator it

  really is it's it's it's going to give

  it a GD a right and so there's other

  ones you know i'll just mention like

  there's busy cow right and I mentioned a

  competitor while talking about this week

  sponsor because fantastic if you use

  busy cal as

  your ical replacement fantastical

  integrates great with it the one good

  thing about the apple/system is that

  it's a system provided calendar store

  like it works with your calendars that

  you've set up and I count the same way

  that busy so if you're busy Cal user

  which I am I don't use ical for anything

  if I need a big full screen

  here's a you know take up the whole

  screen thing i use busy count but

  fantastic out works great with busy cow

  right but i would buy it just for the

  the the input such a great app and

  here's the best thing the best thing is

  they're having I then this this one

  thing about this doesn't make any sense

  they're having a back-to-school

  promotion now this i don't understand

  it's it's June my kid just got out of

  school last week

  well did you know they don't know

  anything about dates those guys

  yeah I don't know that there have it i

  think they got the calendar on but that

  they're having a back-to-school

  promotion and it's fifty percent off

  well so everybody can get you can buy

  fantastical for 999 its regularly 1999

  you can get it now for 999 I think

  you're nuts if you don't have this app

  and you don't even have to take my word

  for it because they have a 14-day free

  trial man just do it

  yeah I don't just do honestly it's with

  ten bucks just to check out like if you

  have any interest in sort of a I or

  pausing anything just pay the 10 bucks

  type a few things into that field and

  see how good job is is it it's terrific

  yeah so you can just google fantastical

  go to the website or you can just go to

  flex a bit fle x ibit and check it


  14-day free trial 999 back-to-school

  promotion in the middle of june is a

  fantastic at my thanks to them for

  sponsoring the show this week so back to

  WC yeah I have two more things I want to

  talk about from WWDC and I got a couple

  of things to all right well one of them

  is is the pull to refresh that they've

  added to iOS yeah which is something

  I've been hoping they would do but the

  wondering if they never would write out

  of pride

  well two factors there's two factors

  there one is pride

  I well I would say three actually

  pride obvious pneus and patents right so

  pride is that it was not invented by

  them it was invented by lauren Richter

  for his 14 Tweety his you know which is

  now really in doing that which is now

  did been right well now it's the

  official twitter client now it's not the


  that's not that's not Tweety now but he

  invented for tweeting so pride would be

  well he invented it and it was different

  than anything apple had come up with and

  so maybe they would their pride would

  keep them from adopting something that

  came from the third-party obvious is

  that and this is the day I think the

  worst argument and I don't really think

  even Apple would go for it is that it's

  there I OS favors the visual over the

  implied and gestures and iOS are almost

  always for things that there's a visual

  way to do so like you know the shortcuts

  that take gestures there's usually a

  button that you could tap to do it too

  but that doesn't really hold water

  because nobody's saying that they should

  get rid of the reload button and only

  have pulled over fresh they should just

  add it as something else and it doesn't

  take anything away

  well have you seen what they did do I

  didn't but I don't have it in front of

  me right now they did exactly that they

  got rid of the refresh button only that

  progression male I didn't notice that

  yeah which I find weird i would

  personally I would keep the button

  yeah yeah I would've kept the button to

  button certain anybody know and you know

  it was so I'm thinking that most i think

  i'm thinking that their line of thinking

  is that most people have push email like

  it's you don't actually need to refresh

  your email that much

  by default just come in mm so getting

  the buttons not that big a deal and if

  you want to pull to refresh well you've

  got it right

  that's good because I've said this

  before you know and and even now because

  on my main phone i still haven't

  upgraded to 6 beta but

  I because of pull-to-refresh and how

  many other apps third-party apps I use

  that have adopted it I i pulled a

  refreshing mail every time i'm reading

  mail on my phone every time I just do it

  I can't help but think that that's why

  they finally broke down and an added it

  is that they were doing it to probably

  and it's just it's just a good idea just

  makes sense and you know what they

  didn't just added to mail it's actually

  added to the underlying frameworks any

  table you can have a pull to refresh now

  right which is a big deal i think it's a

  sort of it to second official embrace

  it's not just that they've added it to a

  nap it's officially embrace that

  sprinkler system and now they did in a

  kind of a weird way it is that little

  animation thing like it looks like a

  water droplet the eastwood pull apart or

  like maybe like a piece of putty that

  you have stretching and then you want to

  you reach a breaking point and that

  yeah and then it yeah and like you said

  with cable last week it it triggers when

  you drink that the party rather than

  when you will like let go of me I'm

  right which is a bit weird but the other

  thing I kind of find a bit weird is it

  Lawrence implementation and pretty much

  all the other ones have some text

  telling you what's going to happen and

  the apple one just has this party

  you don't mean it doesn't say like

  pull-to-refresh sure it doesn't say

  what's going to happen something you

  know right they've actually made it less


  yeah yeah it's not clear what's gonna

  happen when you break that thing right

  with Lauren's it was as soon as you

  pulled the view you're at the top of the

  view and as soon as you pull it down a

  little bit it would say like hey keep

  going you can pull the refresh me and I

  actually chatted briefly with Lauren

  about it just a I I thought it was his

  reaction to it was exactly what I

  expected but i just wanted to check to

  make sure i want to say hey to you is it

  like a thrill you kind of honored or you

  feel ripped off and he's like thrilled

  he thinks it's absolutely great that

  Apple is is putting it in the system now

  but like us hehe dis you know he doesn't

  think that the new all you have to do is

  pull and not let go that he did he did

  he likes his implementation

  better right so I so this is a good

  discussion we had last week I don't

  think you were there but there's a

  couple of us a table in Moscow knee in

  between sessions were talking about

  did Apple make that change so that it

  happens only when you after only by

  pulling not by pulling letting go

  did they do that out of pride like like

  they've convinced themselves like now we

  you know we didn't do it before but now

  we've come up with a way to make pull

  refresh right or is it a patent thing

  that the patent that twitter has on

  polar of fresh apples implementation

  doesn't violate the letter of it that

  knows combination i don't know I to me

  and it might just be my general version

  like repulsion I'm repulsed by software

  patents on silly things that I say no

  it's not the patent thing but I forget

  who it was that it was Matthew panza

  Reno was at the table and I think he was

  like reading he pulled up Twitter's

  patent application on it and and those

  pants I mean I just think I get two

  seconds into him and I just fall asleep

  i'm out i'm just it's like it's it's

  like a sedative

  it just puts me right out because of the

  way they're written but he was reading

  it and his you know layman's reading of

  it was that you

  you know that the patent describes pull

  down and let go and that if you you know

  that the apples actually on the good on

  you know so if that's actually the case

  that they had lawyers who said you know

  you've got to do this then I feel feel

  bad for the engineers who did it if it's

  because they think that this is better

  and you're out there listening please

  please please change it to two more

  closely follow the treaty model before

  iOS 6 finishes I really think that that

  this is not an improvement

  well this is not just me all right it's

  going to be absent we're going to be

  doing that right so I'm I mean it could

  be the patents but it they have a lot of

  patent fights right i don't think that

  they intentionally avoids doing what

  they think is great to it you know to

  avoid up to avoid patent they think

  they're constantly having patent but

  it's okay one thing that I think is

  irrelevant irrelevant

  his Twitter's promise not to use

  software patents yeah aggressively which

  is admirable

  I'm glad they did it's certainly better

  it's better than nothing and it's you

  know it's an admirable stands for the

  company to take but i think it's

  irrelevant because there is zero chance

  that Apple's lawyers give two craps

  about what Twitter is quote/unquote

  promised exactly

  yeah i mean i'd i'd believe them exactly

  i think there but that doesn't mean it

  it's not legally binding and handling


  exactly and whose you know you know if a

  new CEO comes into twitter he doesn't

  give two craps with the old CEO set

  right well exactly i mean used to say

  that Google is my Twitter and then

  reinstall the pants to New gabble

  exactly whatever right

  yeah alright so what are you get so I

  got a couple of things that I just want

  to talk about um so you had a bit

  regarding at possible tall screen iphone

  yes right and you suppose that they were

  pitch it at WWDC by i'm having the

  notifications sort of push down the view

  tune and they would encourage developers

  to make their layout more flexible

  vertically right right so one thing they

  did add which nobody's really talked

  about much is they've added an auto

  layout system to iOS where you can

  describe the relationship between

  various controls and how they react to a

  screen size changes so it's nice now

  like that you can sort of say well this

  you know this button should be at the

  end of this text field and with you know

  eight pixels in between it and they

  should both be clapped the right-hand

  side of the screen so that we need

  change the orientation all of the

  control certainly out nicely right it's

  like a way of saying these things should

  be at the bottom

  these things should be at the top and

  you don't have to define how wide the

  middle is right yeah you just described

  the relationships between the items and

  basically they're like where they

  respected the top and bottom left of the

  bed or whatever so that's in ios6 now

  that's like seems like that would be

  kind of handy for you know another

  device with a different shape screen

  right or yeah or an app that doesn't

  know the size of the screen

  exactly because for you know it there

  are a hundred million iphones out there

  with this size that the current size

  screen 1.12 one point that the 322

  aspect ratio iphone screen so even if

  it's true that the next iPhone has a

  wider taller whatever you want to

  describe it screen it's not like apps

  will switch to the new dimension they're

  going to have to support both but all

  right exactly and the auto layout stuff

  that's one of those that's a technology

  that started on Mac os10 that's not new

  its new to ios6 but it's not new to Coco

  know they edited in Lyon right and

  that's you know and it's useful for the

  mac obviously because windows most

  windows are arbitrarily resizable right

  yeah but it's interesting that they're

  taking that like a technology designed

  for arbitrarily sizable windows and

  bring it to a device with a fixed size

  screen right which you know makes me

  think that at the very least they're

  building in a system that will be able

  to support various sized screens it at

  some point in the future right i don't i

  don't want to play games and be coy with

  the NDA on session contents but i will

  say i haven't seen I didn't see the auto

  layout sessions but there at like at the

  top of my cue from the download list

  from the videos that came out yesterday

  or two days ago actually uh but I noted

  that there was it wasn't just one there

  was at least two it was like

  introduction auto layout on iOS and then

  there was an advanced auto layout on iOS

  right you know actually checked and it's

  here at the Auto layout was mentioned in

  the canyon so yeah yeah and well and I

  think that I don't think that the

  session titles themselves

  I mean and deny it i'm not going to

  avoid talking about session times but i

  don't think i think once the schedule

  came out you can say what the schedules

  you know what the you can say what the

  sessions are I think the contents are

  under NDA but i don't think that the

  titles of the sessions are and it

  yeah i mean i don't think anybody's

  gonna raise too much for stink right

  yeah so the other thing is Colonel level

  aslr which is address space layout

  randomization so when different when

  libraries get loaded into into the

  kernel they are placed in different

  locations in memory so that if you have

  an exploit code you can't you can't rely

  on like a certain function being in a

  certain place so it makes it harder to

  exploit the colonel so that has you know

  that two pretty big security step and

  I'm kind of interested to see how that

  affects jailbreaking on ios6 I that's

  interesting and I really was wondering

  long-term about that because Mac os10

  his head that's another thing that came

  to the mac first but i thought i saw and

  i just i don't follow jailbreaking that

  closely i thought i saw that somebody

  had already issued a jailbreak for iOS 6

  is that without the Joker's that not

  true I'd I haven't seen i don't know i

  just started with an interesting thing

  to look into heaven

  I mean maybe can still give you getting

  up early enough before they start

  happens but either way this is a good

  security thing

  yeah it's very good i've never seen any

  is always seems like whenever i see like

  i could guy like Charlie Miller right

  you know like at one of the absolute top

  mac OS at third party security guys out

  there like what his advice is all I SLR

  is that right aslr get address space

  layout randomization is at the top of

  his list of things apple could do to

  improve iOS right and so they did it

  which is cool right

  and there's another in other words if

  you find and exploit a buffer overflow

  where you can inject code you have no

  idea where it's going to go right

  whereas before a SLR it would go to the

  same place every time

  exactly and you can build a plan from

  there exactly so this makes it a lot

  harder at least two you know to exploit

  about for overflow right

  and next up on my little sister is a

  facetime over cellular accelerator

  which happened go ahead well I haven't

  seen anybody talk about that is anything

  that's what's on my list I don't want

  people are talking about it it there we

  go we've talked about it why do you

  think it's 4s and iphone or ipad 3 only

  I think it's pretty obvious I i think

  it's a marketing thing

  yeah I think it's just just to make you

  know that Dave and there's a pretty

  complicated matrix of all of iOS 6

  features and why what device gets what

  right i don't really understand what

  they're doing their bit but yeah I think

  it's probably American thing plus you

  know what it limits the number of

  devices that can actually do it which

  you know I I would be really interested

  to know what the carrier's actually knew

  this was coming

  I did too they didn't know I message was

  coming right we and I knew that African

  and maybe it was cuz you forget but I

  knew last year when they announced I

  message I forget it forget who I talk to

  about that but i got like it wasn't you

  somebody yet now it was i I now and I

  know who it was it was it was a good

  source they didn't know and the

  carrier's didn't know apple just did it

  and then I can't help but think it's the

  same here that they're not really giving

  they're not really not really up to the

  carrier's although we'll find out we

  will find out when it ships whether it

  you know like it's a thing like verizon

  has it an AT&T dozen right i mean they

  would have thought they'd said that

  yeah I don't know what I do know is that

  since day one it's worked with the sound

  working we just turn it off right you

  know and the the counter example would

  be tethering which is definitely up to

  carriers and they can bill you for it

  but i don't think so because I i think

  the reason is that carried that that's a

  that tethering is like a known carrier

  feature that they sell on other things

  and it was probably like I don't know

  that they built by whereas i did I can't

  see AT&T adding a new bill to your

  iphone so that you can do facetime

  right it's like you can almost see their

  deals with Apple mentioning tethering

  and we got like specific terms rounded

  alright then apple just goes invent

  something new that wasn't in the

  contract and cameras going to get

  stiffed right i'm curious to see how

  bandwidth-intensive it is

  yeah right because you can definitely

  run up against these the bandwidth

  caption like these you know two

  gigabytes is a lot for email and web


  yeah i mean and i know there's somebody

  out there listens to the show was like

  all I do is email and web surfing and I

  run up against the two gigabyte thing

  every night I mean you can do it but it

  really takes I think streaming video to

  really kind of rack up against that

  ya see against Marco easy to deal with

  samar kosher market host at WC last

  weekend was using his ipad 3g or LTE

  instead of the hotel Wi-Fi and left here

  he left his mac tethered overnight unit

  and it downloaded the ad men season for

  now which is like complete two gigabytes

  so you can it be blue is holding

  downloading it and the end that the

  download didn't complete it back

  I don't get it Oh pastor alex well you

  have anything else i have one job but

  it's on your list the passbook ideas on

  my list so i think that's kind of the

  sleeper hit actually you know and it's

  funny like as and when you launch the

  app now there's there's nothing in it

  does one screen and it just says

  password is for the stuff in your pocket

  and it's got like tickets and all that

  stuff but there's a big infrastructure

  behind it and and I think telling me

  they sort of be released a new API that

  would allow apps to sort of inspect only

  their own passes and as it is a bunch of

  back and stuff so that you can send out

  passes create new ones and update once

  it to somebody is on the phone i think

  it's interesting for iOS 6 and but i

  think it's going to be really big in

  ios7 yeah it's

  it's aight i totally agree i really

  think that it's and I'd better sometimes

  i'm wrong about these things like when I

  think that this is a sleeper hit or like

  I call it like an iceberg feature where

  you only see this little bit at the top

  but the implications underneath are huge

  yeah absolutely but i really do think

  that I I think passbook is going to be a

  big deal and I think long term it's

  going to be on an awful lot of iphone

  users first screen right because one of

  them is that one of the things that I

  really thought I I just keep thinking

  about that i really think forestall was

  exactly right in his pitching the

  keynote that half the problem with these

  apps that do the barcode scanning now is

  that you're never going to have them on

  your first or second screen you know

  like your United you know because they

  mean it and some people fly the same

  airline every time and I you knowed i

  fly same handful of airlines but it's

  like you know who knows if you're you

  know continental airlines app where the

  hell is it I don't know and it's you

  know it's the worst thing is you're up

  there at the front of the line and

  you're like page and up to screen aid of

  your homescreen looking for the thing on

  because they do some really clever i

  don't even know how much as I a I guess

  we can talk about it but I they're doing

  some clever stuff though with passbook

  we're based on your location it will

  know like at right is that you open past

  look when you're in a starbucks it's it

  knows you're in a starbucks and our

  guess is you're in a starbucks at the

  very least and there's your starbucks

  you don't even have to do not only do

  you not have to look around for a

  Starbucks app when you open passbook if

  it knows you're in a starbucks it you

  don't have to look for your starbucks

  pass you don't even need to open bass

  work it's raining home screen

  I'll write that exactly right and just

  hang on and it sits there like a

  notification in starbucks you swipe it

  up cuz you're on starbucks card like it

  doesn't even launch the app it just

  comes up with the home screen and you

  can just scan it might then write one of

  the interesting things about passbook is

  that it can work in coordination with a


  yes then and do other things and you can

  use the app to do things like make

  changes like you know the example that

  they gave would be like if it was a

  airline then you wanted to change your

  seat you could you need an app for that

  I got up passbook what they call the

  cards are they passes i'll pass itself

  doesn't have code it's just information

  so if you want to change stuff you've

  got to have a nap but for a lot of cases

  you don't even need a nap

  there's a lot of situations where we're

  developers or stores or you know

  services can get support passbook and it

  takes some code on there some server

  code on their side obviously to do the

  interaction but in terms of like what's

  running on the phone all they have to do

  is support passbook and it doesn't even

  require a nap right i really think that

  it's interesting and it it it's a it's a

  very humble way to get started with this

  where it's not like this boil the ocean

  approach that I think I google has taken

  with my google wallet where it's like

  we're going to support this NFC stuff

  and it in theory works everywhere and

  practice works know where are always

  know where well i mean i think it's an

  approach where they're not relying on

  the on the endpoint to have any specific

  technology right right

  they're just going to support what's

  what people already do and build up in

  there like so one interesting thing is

  I'm let's say you've got your starbucks


  you know you could you could probably

  more apple could probably work out a way

  that they could charge up your starbucks

  card from your itunes account I I

  thought about that too the only thing

  about that is that when you win you any

  of your money goes through your itunes

  account apple takes thirty percent and I

  so I don't see how that would work well

  I mean they could work out a deal with

  starbucks and they take less than thirty

  percent right like you know it right

  like maybe for the passbook stuff

  they'll do it in a way that and and I

  almost feel like they have to if there

  and I think long-term everybody in other

  been rumors about Apple getting in the

  NFC and payments and stuff like that

  that there's no for as much as they've

  stuck to their guns across the board

  music video apps books with this 7030

  7030 in-app purchases 7030 everything

  when money goes through

  the store at 70 30 maybe the way that

  they do it is that they don't really

  it's not called going through this store

  right like all the stuff that goes

  through this store is 70 30 but the

  payment processing is is not that it's

  just hooked up your account so it goes

  through the same credit card you've got

  hooked up right but I you know they

  would I I they could really you know

  they could undercut everybody on that I

  mean they could just charged with it you

  know just to break even thing and just

  have it as a reason to have an iphone

  right i think there's they've had a lot

  of credit cards

  of credit cards

  right and then they get you stuff to

  they could even do it you can do it

  wouldn't even just be charging up your

  starbucks card you could do it like you

  know if you're with the airline thing

  where you've got a coach seat and you go

  do your thing and you can maybe get a

  notification that there's an upgrade

  available you know the business class or

  or first class or something like that

  and you just do it in the app and it

  goes through your iTunes Store thing you

  don't even have to sit there and follow

  around with credit cards or something

  like that

  yeah yeah exactly like I think we've got

  a good pitch for businesses which is

  there's less friction alright and are

  you could you know you could even buy

  you know like when you have to buy your

  drink or a sandwich on the pond the

  flight you know you could just do it

  through the phone may not and again you

  may not even have to take your phone out

  of your pocket to have its camp right i

  think that i think the implications of

  passbook huge yeah i think so too and

  it's a really clever system

  I mean I guess we can't get into the

  details of how it works because that's

  clearly NDA but it's really really

  clever and so anybody out there who does

  if you've got an account and you're

  thinking about what WWDC sessions to

  watch i would highly recommend the

  passbook sessions because they're really

  interesting and I thought they were at

  you know all the sessions deputies here

  good but i thought those were really

  exceptionally well structured from my

  god had a gajal standpoint like that's

  just it just opens your mind how it

  works and it's a really clever system

  yeah it's very satisfying yeah so i'm

  not sure to be huge for ios6 but I think

  they're going to start making a lot of

  deals around this and we'll see what


  what else do you have anything else from

  WTC and I really think that in his new

  maps it whenever I don't know what to

  make about that i know people are saying

  that there's not as much detail on the

  maps i think the the lack of transit


  I you know I link to a thing this week

  from somebody saying that you know what

  that's actually a good idea because

  because the transit stuff is all over

  the map not a little bit

  no cleaning ended yeah I but like in

  Europe there's some places where that

  the transit information

  is owned by private companies and they

  don't want google having it for free and

  they're like blogging them but on the

  other hand I i wrote a very brief piece

  you know a little link thing early this

  morning its bottom line notes from users

  users don't care about that stuff like

  all users are going to know is that if

  they used to rely on the transit info in

  the Maps app and it's gone that's that's

  a downgrade right so I mean it's you

  know I gotta say that that's points off

  for ios6 i mean i don't care i mean

  maybe a long-term it does work out

  better but in the short term people are

  going to notice and it's it's like a

  record of it

  well I think the question is would you

  rather have flyover or know what bus

  line to take right if I was really cool

  i also had thanks flyover is why i like

  it way better than Street View in Google

  Street feel and I guess the argument for

  street view is that cool but it's not as

  useful street you have literally used to

  like I know this building here this

  restaurant and I know they've got their

  phone number on the window right and I'm

  literally used to defeat for you to go

  and find it i guess that's the argument

  is that street view is from the

  perspective of you on the sidewalk right

  it's like I walk down the street and

  know where that thing is and i'm trying

  to remember you know you can go and see

  it and flowers incredibly cool

  technology i gotta say ah yeah very cool

  let me take it before we talk about the

  rest of the stuff is a good good time to

  do the second sponsor right in our

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  to sort of do I don't know what you call

  it but DJ's do is I'm sort of out of my

  league here because i'm not very musical

  your musical guy I know

  no well it's a terrible i like music I

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  it's super impressive and and from user

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  is live there is no latency it's super

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  with it i sent you from ok I did I did

  it's very impressive it is super

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  I myself i I don't I can't use it to the

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  guarantee you that with this app there

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  and people will be like I can't believe

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  like ground zero step one of my god this

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  it's a perfect example of the sort of

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  that you couldn't do on a Mac because

  the Holy visual it and it's multi-touch

  it's two things at once so there's only

  one mouse on the Mac you can't you can't

  spend two things at once you can't twist

  two different things at the same time on

  the mac which is the entire point

  of Vijay that you're you're tweaking to

  songs at once or two videos at once at

  the same time I really nice UI

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  said it and I was on a phone

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  over about DJ they were having some

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  introduced me to them and we so we had a

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  they are really really smart guys very

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  to be honest I don't know what I told

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  guys great sponsors thank you both

  so the other big news of the week is

  from Microsoft you and I sort of where

  we going where we weren't watching

  because I didn't do the video live we're

  following the live blog coverage right

  live and then chatting to each other on

  the back channel and and let me just say

  this here's the thing i was thinking

  this is me yesterday was yesterday

  here's what i was saying i got nervous

  about having you on the show because one

  thing everybody always wanted people say

  to get somebody on the show is going to

  do is gonna is gonna fight back and

  going to tell you tell you what the

  hell's wrong with you and that's why I

  thought all right I'm gonna do I'm gonna

  get guy guys guys guys not gonna let me

  slide this is one thing I think I I mean

  I haven't written anything good in weeks

  and guys going to call me out on that

  he's going to say what are you doing you

  haven't got so I thought I gotta write

  something good I got and I gotta write

  something so the guy can't tell me that

  i've been slacking off and so here's

  what it is i went back to our i am and i

  stole all of your ideas all of your

  comments from the surface event and then

  turn them into a little article for

  daring fireball well how to really great

  article I don't know them ideas I mean

  whatever i'm not particularly and get

  jealous about where ideas come from and

  I wouldn't like he said that to me on

  twitter and i can add didn't feel it was

  me and that was more of us just chatting

  but I do you know i'll give you credit

  and I stole the the fact that they

  couldn't date they clearly couldn't make

  enough decisions that was for ya

  oh thank you and ya know I think they I

  think they made good decisions and but

  they didn't make great decisions they

  made both of those products are

  interesting by themselves right I one

  less so I like that the Intel one looks

  kind of garbage to me personally but I

  could see that being a product that they

  would want to shit to do both of them is

  crazy i don't understand what the hell

  they're thinking well or wide why

  announce both of them at the same time

  why not just announced the arm one and

  make it all about that here's a here's

  the the argument is that they've

  announced an arm-based tablet and

  an intel-based tablet that's thicker and

  light so it's sort of like the arm-based

  one is vaguely and I'm roughly

  equivalent to like an iPad and the art

  and the intel based one is roughly

  equivalent to like a macbook air but

  with a touch string and then they also

  introduced this very clever capacitive i

  guess i gotta smart cover magnetically

  attached but that has a keyboard on it

  and very good that part that super

  clever about it isn't just the idea of

  hey why not you know why not have the

  underside of the cover be a keyboard and

  it attaches magnetically like Apple

  smart covers but the thing that's really

  clever is that it draws power over that

  magnetic connection so that the keyboard

  cover doesn't itself need a battery so

  like if you were gonna make I'm sure

  after they did that there's a probably

  gonna be like 20 Kickstarter campaigns

  this week from people to make something

  like that for the ipad but if you did it

  for the ipad it would have to be a

  bluetooth thing and that means that it

  would draw it would need like a battery

  and I don't know that they could even be

  as thin as as the microsoft one but then

  like 20 minutes later in in the event

  then they come out with another cover

  that has a keyboard that actually has

  physical moving Keys I don't get it so

  they in other words the message instead

  of the message being here it is

  we're making our own tablet boom this is

  it and we've got this amazing cover here

  it is

  they've got this mixed-up story of

  here's a tablet and its arm and it's

  thinner and lighter and cooler and

  here's this water keyboard

  oh but here's this other tablet that

  looks the same from the front and then

  you turn it sideways and it's real thick

  and has vents but it runs photoshop and

  anything from windows so you know it is

  a reasonable it's not a crazy trade-off

  there's actually reason somebody might

  want to do it

  oh and here's this other keyboard cover

  and they're not we don't know when

  they're shipping and what the prices are

  and the other one is going to ship at

  least three months after the other one

  that we don't know when it's gonna show

  and it had to be the whole thing just

  sort of falls apart at that point

  yeah well i mean i think the thing is

  that they're chasing customer affection

  rather than started selling em a product

  you know I mean there

  they're nervous they don't know which

  one to do i think one could probably

  came up with the arm one and then

  somebody upstairs was like no we gotta

  have this until one right and they just

  did both and I don't think they I want

  one thing that struck me about the event

  was that they did indeed this is an idea

  that you didn't steal so okay I get to

  10 smart they didn't sell their choices

  that they made day and they say

  specifically called out how hard it was

  to make choices right found interesting

  that I think it's just the wrong thing

  to do but basically you make your

  choices you come up with the product and

  any sell it

  this is it we believe it what did what

  they specifically call out in the event

  is like man we had a lot of hard choices

  to make

  but we think these are great right and

  yet you've got a spectrum of stuff which

  clearly means that you don't you know

  you didn't put all the wood behind one

  arrow you didn't you didn't pick

  something to be great

  perfect turn of phrase right they didn't

  put all other wood behind one arrow

  which i think is a shame because it be

  the arm one is interesting or or if they

  did maybe from their perspective they

  did and that the they're thinking of it

  from the perspective of we're going to

  start making pc hardware in general

  which is a tremendous fundamental shift

  for the company and I know people have

  said regarding my article that's not

  that Microsoft has never gotten hardware

  before they make the xbox they've made

  all sorts of peripherals before they

  made the zunes but yes so they say

  they've made hardware before but the one

  it's almost like a religious line that

  they've never crossed as they've never

  made pc hardware before right that's I

  mean the zune is one thing where you

  enter at the hardware market where your

  partners are right you know but that's

  not their key market right this is the

  bread-and-butter the foundation of the

  entire microsoft Empire is this notion

  of we make a PC operating system and

  apps for that operating system office

  primarily from a financial standpoint

  but you know all sorts of other stuff

  they make the airplane simulator and you


  dell HP sony toshiba samsung you guys

  make the hardware you guys make the

  hardware we do the software and it's a

  very crystal in the pc industry and that

  you know that's where all of the money's

  coming from and now they've so i think

  from their perspective that they've put

  all their wood behind the arrow ok now

  we're making hardware to write whereas

  from the messaging standpoint that's

  interesting the microsoft I mean that is

  very interesting to Microsoft but from a

  consumer standpoint they don't really

  care you know like people just want to

  buy an ice machine and have it work

  yeah centric focused it's more like and

  you know corporate broadcaster and they

  so they didn't what I think was lacking

  from the event was a story a narrative

  about why why you'd want this and what

  you would do with it right and what the

  different you know and and because they

  didn't have a story at all it means that

  they didn't even come first you need the

  story and then you've got to figure out

  a way in that story to differentiate

  between the two devices the Intel one in

  the arm one but because i didn't have a

  story period

  it's a real i think miss mash messaging

  whys of why there's two of them and what

  the differences are well I mean they

  should give him the whole event that

  panels gay

  yeah i thought so too i really i thought

  he was gonna get it was comfortable and

  I realized that what he was talking

  about was a little bit the

  self-referential where he was talking

  about the design and on the design

  process but his enthusiasm was genuine

  and he actually was going to seem

  comfortable up there

  yeah like I cracked a joke on Twitter

  during the event occurred a couple jokes

  but one of the jokes I've number one no

  I just want to even though i crack jokes

  that doesn't mean I don't like the thing

  i'm a color me very intrigued by the

  whole thing and I think it's the same

  thing is true for you too right yeah

  very much so I i mean i think this thing

  could be i think this is the whole I i

  am the thing i'm skeptical about is

  windows 8 on regular pcs I think better

  on regular pcs I

  I really from what I've seen and played

  with it i think it's i think it's wrong

  i think metro on a touchscreen device is

  really really interesting and especially

  on a bigger one that's bigger than a

  phone not like in some sense i do think

  that iOS is a little bit like a phone OS

  that runs on a tablet whereas I think

  that the metro you user interface really

  feels and it seems like it's natural for

  like a nine inch tablet 10-inch tablet

  color me very interested but you know so

  the jokes are just me you know cracking

  jokes but my job one of my jokes was

  that the because the Intel one time with


  the Intel one to me seems janky because

  it's thick and has vented as a fan

  it's a serious magnetic pin- them i like

  I honestly i'm a i'm a fan of the pan

  input idea i think it's a great idea

  magnetizing it to you think now don't do

  that right

  this is not the all of the differences

  between their arm one any Intel 12 me

  are advertisements for the arm one

  yes so I cracked a joke that the I maybe

  i'll get the deep the things wrong that

  I said it's it's thicker and has a fan

  and it has a cassette tape deck because

  it just seems like it's you know it's

  it's old technology you know it'sit's

  and it's a lot to me it's also a lot

  like the tablet pcs that Microsoft's

  been trying to sell for for 15 years

  right right you know what you know they

  should have done just occurred to me

  you're right it's old its old attack

  what they should have done is

  introducing the Intel one first

  hmm yeah we got his we got the United

  States is not the old windows it's got

  also for its a very comfortable it's

  like a macbook air with touchscreen got

  the clicky clicky keyboard great how do

  you like that

  nice pretty excited guess what here's an

  arm 14 metro very fat like it's got

  advanced your keyboard

  they didn't order it really did think

  about the order that Apple did the

  15-inch macbook pros last week right

  first the old one that's not exciting it

  i mean and and I say not exciting it

  actually is that the new the new old


  book pros are actually very nice

  upgrades I mean knows it's like cutting

  edge intel chipsets it's a really nice

  performance upgrade but they did those

  first but I mean still where we were all

  calling them the new old ones right yeah

  you're exactly right thing about the way

  Apple did the macbook pros i completely

  agree to the one that's that's older

  tech first and do the skating to where

  the puck is going next which is arm

  which is thinner which is no vents no

  fan no need for that runs cool not know

  legacy apps

  yeah yeah they totally didn't order see

  well and I think that's telling because

  i think that they think they probably

  did them in the right order and where

  the one that can't on the desktop

  Windows is the lesser product to them so

  they there there big reveal was I guess

  why you can go on desktops up on this

  and I think that is you know telling

  about the company i'm also curious about

  the timing of the event and like I had

  you know who you'll never know because

  you know what if you're going to

  pre-announce something it when is the

  right time to pronounce it and you know

  eivol you know Apple pre-announced is

  almost nothing they tend to announce

  stuff when it's ready or like ready next

  week but for example they pronounce the

  iphone by six months and i think there's

  a couple special reason right because

  they weren't cannibalizing their own

  sales and they had to start doing

  federal mcc mcc stuff that it was going

  to leak anyway so this was a way to to

  control the reveal

  but the big thing is they weren't

  cannibalizing their own sales and so

  Microsoft is in a very similar position

  with this where it's really i don't

  think it's going to stop sales of

  existing windows notebooks and PCs but

  it might maybe a little for some buyers

  slow sales of ipads or make people wait

  a little bit you know mean it's I don't

  think it would be if if it works if it

  catches on and the idea of we should

  wait for the surface at least to see it

  if there's any merit to it it's only

  going to hurt out

  all or and or android tablet makers it's

  not gonna hurt anybody who's already

  using windows

  yeah right i don't think that they risk

  cannibalizing anything of their own

  I don't think they thought it through

  that much time in your piece supposing

  that they're all right good got a plan

  but I also think well I think it's a lot

  about the fact that at some point once

  they get this thing the wheels running

  on this thing production-wise they can't

  keep it secret

  maybe those I mean those things to seem

  to barely work great

  could the journalist didn't get to play

  with the keyboards everything was all

  screwed up right one of them frozen on

  stage it's just bad and like it was the

  worst thing about it is that he didn't

  even add well no it's not you know stuff

  went wrong for Steve at times but if you

  know any laughter handle it well right

  sort of like Johnny Carson with a bomb

  joke right

  yeah you just gotta roll with it was

  like excuse me and give me a minute

  Campbell's over to like the spare line

  okay yeah he he almost the way he

  rambled over there it

  this is steven sinofsky it almost looked

  as though he was just gonna run off the

  stage and not come back like he was just

  here I would if I would've just left and

  just throwing thing again and just left

  but so I so everything we know about

  this event is it was very last minute

  right they got invites went out during

  the week of WC yeah and people didn't

  know where to go now wants to come to LA

  like it seems to me that I don't know if

  this is I have no idea but apparently

  google is going to be announcing like a

  nexus tablet

  alright next week at i/o and it seems to

  me that maybe Microsoft knows that I got

  it I finally figured it out and that

  they want to frame any i/o announcements

  through the lens that they're just

  presented alright hastily um you know

  maybe not maybe you know not in the tech

  press necessarily but in the mainstream

  dress you know that whatever is

  announced at i/o

  is going to be related to what

  Microsoft's just said yeah I think so

  too and and in terms of being arranged

  at the last minute it does seem like the

  invitations and etc at least the

  invitations went out after the WWDC

  keynote right and so I I can only guess

  that they were like let's see if apple

  announces anything relevant which they

  didn't but i think that there's and who

  knows maybe Microsoft has better Intel

  then we do that you know maybe they even

  know more about what Google's going to

  announce but it you know the consensus

  is certainly that google is going to

  announce something that's pretty much

  along the same lines google-branded

  tablet right I'm and I think they wanted

  to get in front of that

  yeah I mean there's any press about the

  google cabinet is going to be pressed

  for them they're all right it's is what

  google did with 3d maps or try to do I

  mean personally don't think it's a great

  move right i think it looks defensive

  exactly but it is it's the common thing

  in google just did with the maps all

  right I guess we're running short on

  time here but we have a few more things

  I wanted to talk to you about stuff that

  you're working on you run a conference

  in Montreal started last year singleton

  get Mac to indymac or indeed i say Mac

  but in the Apple Developer Conference

  right we've had with the loop and how

  Scott Morrison and a lot of help from a

  tree Muller where it was it was

  fantastic i was there last year and it

  was a terrific time people are I think

  much did you get a lot of people asking

  at WTC about singleton 20 yeah yeah but

  he's asking when it's going on sale and

  whatnot it's going to be I but i think

  it's going to be a WWDC situation now

  where it's like you're going to put it

  on sale and the damn thing is going to

  sell out

  yeah I mean that happened last year like

  I had to ask you not to actually mention

  it on verifiable last year because it

  went pretty quick then it's ok that is

  rare it is actually very rare that

  people the people asked me not to link

  to sell me

  I'm gonna put this thing on sale don't

  want to do it aren't there in viral

  because i think that the people who read

  recite are really going to jump all over

  it right everybody is going to have a

  bigger venue

  yeah a little bit bigger and better 220

  people compared to the sort of 75 80

  that we had last time very small crab

  but i think a small confiscated so the

  value is you know I think the speaker's

  being a lot of value but I think in a

  way the greater value is having smoked

  out meeting everybody and talking about

  this because had to say I'm always

  interested to like sometimes when people

  talk to me about daring fireball

  sponsorships or the talk so sponsorships

  and i'll ask well you know what kind of

  results can i expect and I often i don't

  really know i mean i-i don't measure

  stuff like that like when I have links

  to your site

  it just goes right to you there's no

  click tracker and even if I did have a

  cliq tracker who knows what that means

  and who knows whether you can even trust

  it or whatever and and whether one thing

  goes awry i always say the bottom line

  is you know I think the most telling

  thing is how many repeat sponsors there

  are and there's a lot and that means

  that they came back and they were happy

  and so when I you know you're doing a

  conference because I've often thought

  maybe you know maybe I should try to put

  a conference together

  the interesting thing to me wasn't

  whether you did the first one it was

  whether you'd want to do a second one

  right and you're dead

  yeah we headed it was a big success we

  are not financially actually just it

  makes even to it's not a this is not a

  business for us it's just something that

  we wanted to do and we had it's like a

  really great time we had a great

  speakers great turnout and you know we

  want to do it again about to happen up

  and try it out again and because i think

  it's actually we're not focused the same

  way there's a lot of indie conferences a

  lot of really good ones but we're not

  really focused on the same kind of thing


  we aim to sort of be more meta level it

  will last year was about

  maybe we tend to pick themes was going

  to but the idea is that we're gonna pick

  themes and last year's basically a the

  team was that we're at it we were at an

  inflection point that the mac was

  clearly going away of iOS in terms of

  the mac app store sandboxing and a lot

  of indie developers the way that they

  run their businesses was going to change

  so we thought to be valuable to get a

  bunch of people together and sort of

  discuss that discuss where things were

  going and and how people can adapt to

  the change and i think that work well

  this year and the team is going to be

  about girls and scaling and then the

  process behind that because I think as

  smaller developers or you know basically

  people in the industry we're all getting

  a lot more customers or in your case a

  lot more meters it then we used to say

  you know five years ago and how do we

  handle that like what does that mean for

  our businesses and our our software and

  the way that we approach that the market

  and our customers a good theme like I

  said just talking to some people as we

  get WTC there's definitely some really

  really small shops one-man shows two men

  partnerships that that have more

  customers then I I don't know ever

  before I mean I guess they're with their

  websites that could do it now the web

  sort of enabled that but with these apps

  there's people who have more customers

  than then it's fashionable for a

  one-person shop right to do and you know

  I don't know the you know it's a good

  topic because I just don't know that

  we're hooked up evolutionarily that to

  deal with that sort of scale adding like

  an individual level like if you ran at

  you know a bakery that you didn't

  doesn't make any sense that you have

  40,000 customers a week right just

  doesn't doesn't doesn't work well with

  apps it works you can do it well yeah

  there's still challenges what load goes

  way up the ramp and add edges i think

  its new

  interesting topic at I think it's what's

  happening this year last year I think

  was like big change this year things are

  going I don't know what will be next

  year but hopefully I'll identified or

  will identify it and come up with

  another game so the other thing that

  you've got cooking

  you've got a new company yeah aged in

  distilled yeah with the our good friend

  Chris parish Chris parish formerly of

  rogue sheep

  yep you formerly of rogue amoeba and we

  went rogue and get lucky it's not cheap

  jokes it will cut that out don't worry

  about the past and i will cut that right

  out scene and you guys I you're not

  ready to announce anything yet but you

  guys are working on the app and it's it

  is a mac app not an iOS app right and i

  think that's interesting because I feel

  like I certainly the mac you know Mac

  sales are up Mac it's never been better

  time to be a Mac Developer but I'd iOS

  is growth so is so explosive that it

  dwarfs the growth the mac has been

  undergoing and there's sort of an

  assumption i think that most people if

  they're going to start a new thing to do

  apps it's going to be iphone and ipad

  apps right so I supposed to be the

  answer that question is what we wanted

  to solve a problem and the problem

  existed or was best salt on the Mac hey

  I'm so what the app is basically it's

  you it's called Mac instead concise

  visual communication and it's for

  marking up images and working with

  designers and developers remotely so you

  can very quickly with a good novel input

  method make notes on imaging share it

  and given that that's the problem you're

  trying to solve it and it's a problem

  that I've been candid like monkey said

  when i was working with me but I was

  working remote and would often want to

  send notes back and forth on you know

  the work with that the widgets did the

  design and it was difficult when you and

  Chris work remote cause Christian is

  chris's in Seattle and I'm here in


  so you're both in Canada but on

  different different sides of the

  continent exactly exactly different

  costs so you guys probably use it you

  guys probably use it you know your dog

  fooding it

  yeah yeah we use it a lot and you know a

  couple other people use it to is it

  written already know

  well it will be easy right

  well I mean we just needed to exit did

  resources exactly

  yeah but it's like we were pretty close

  to shipping and so we want to ship same

  time as a mountain lion we're gonna

  we're gonna be my online only going to

  use all their goodies but yeah it's to

  answer the question about iOS and this

  was a problem that primarily existed on

  the on a mac in the designer is working

  in photoshop or developers working in

  Xcode and you want to quicklys you don't

  share things back and for it and it is

  an app that is very well suited to the

  ipad but the project the problem we want

  to solve manifest itself mainly on the

  mac right now I think that it fits

  I think that's one of the the messages

  apple has been trying to reiterate in

  the last year or so is more or less

  don't forget about the mac i think I

  can't believe that big dick from Apple's

  perspective that they can't believe that

  after six consecutive years of

  consecutive quarters 24 consecutive

  quarters were the mac has mac sales have

  grown faster than the pc industry at

  large 24 consecutive quarters they still

  have to remind people like hate the mac

  is that is awesome and it's at

  there's totally problems that can only

  be that are best solved on the mac

  ya think so I mean I think there's still

  a bit of a look at the gold rush

  mentality around iOS I were you know

  Chris and I think would rather figure

  out problem to solve and workout


  soft and in this case it's on a mac i

  also think I do think that there's an

  opportunity there to that that a new

  thing for the mac you might be able to

  gain attention quicker then stuff for

  the iOS because there's so much less of

  that gold rush mentality

  yeah and conservatively there's so many

  thousands of developers releasing iOS

  stuff that in the mac stuff can gain

  traction and I thought that was obvious

  to and I thought it was clear the

  keynote and it's occurred to me that I

  was a little bored during the mountain

  lion section because i'm almost all old

  stuff you know stuff we already knew but

  then somebody pointed out that it was

  you know most of the developers there

  they don't even think they don't know

  anything about mountain lions are not

  writing mac apps night it was all news

  to them that's why there was so much

  applause for like the stuff that was you

  know on apple's website for months

  yeah I think Syracuse was saying that on

  his show yeah it's exactly know what

  that's it that's where i got it i think

  you know what I think he told me that in

  person last week to it could be and yeah

  it like the mountain lion section of the

  keynote was really kind of boring i

  think maybe power nap was new

  yeah it's at all that's cool but I mean

  yeah between asleep it was power nap and

  dictation right where the two new things

  that were really on so it'sit's and I

  was not the most exciting

  no no no Richard developer technology

  they just work they do that thing right

  on you can tweet in it in a notification

  area now

  alright alright like nothing you know

  nothing groundbreaking but you know I

  think mountain lion is the it's what

  line should have been

  yeah basically you know it's the

  polished version i think ios6 is the

  same as a polished version of iOS 5 6 d

  we're not on a major leap year right now

  threat you know and and we gotta wrap

  this up but I did there's a story on

  Gizmodo today

  somebody wrote in the headline any more

  or less says it all is that Microsoft is

  now the most exciting company in tech

  and it's typical gizmodo linkbait where

  they're trying to take an obvious

  contrarian perspective on what I have to

  say that in in broad strokes

  I i actually agree with that and now and

  later in the article forget who wrote it

  on my command staff who cares its

  gizmodo but they date instead of saying

  exciting they said innovative isn't most

  innovative know there i think is more of

  an argument I think exciting is the word

  that actually is more apt which is that

  nobody was really expecting the surface

  thing this week they kept that secret

  and people were thinking the best people

  thought was maybe like a barnes and

  noble a joint you know smaller 6-inch

  type thing that was more like an

  e-reader this is way more ambitious than

  anything people that Gaston eight kept

  it under under really tight wraps like

  nobody knew it definitely whereas

  everything apple is announces more or

  less as expected you know I mean there's

  stuff like passbook that is news and

  wasn't really rumor expected but it's

  not major it's not exciting right

  I gets its Apple has become I think

  predictable in a very good way in a way

  that is good for the company and I think

  I iOS 6 and mountain lion reflect that

  like they're very I think they're very

  very you know good list of features

  year-over-year very impressive 12 months

  updates to what came before them but

  they're not exciting is not the word I

  would use to describe them

  well I mean I think Microsoft is

  interesting in that they're kind of


  I'm apple is less interesting in that

  they're on top of their game and they're

  executing well alright it's not as

  exciting to be the guy in the lead the

  guy who's gonna like the race car driver

  who's making exciting loses the guy

  who's in second right yeah and they're

  not just in the lead to look like a head

  right and you know that there's it's not

  that they're not doing interesting stuff

  i'm sure it'll be a lot of cool stuff

  coming out but for this you know for the

  you know the observer microsoft is that

  offers more drama and say no

  exactly yeah and I think that's good i

  think it's actually what they need to do

  I did it makes me optimistic about their

  their prospects

  it would make me optimistic accept their

  products email screwed up

  yeah sure but at the very least I feel

  like that the very least though it shows

  that they're not in denial

  yes right what would be what would be

  sad would be if they had their head in

  the sand and we're just comes in their

  ears you know not I can't hear you doing

  the same thing that they have been doing

  you know and and just pretending that

  that the industry hasn't totally shifted

  and that Apple hasn't taken over the

  penthouse suite right exactly i mean i

  think one of the I think my favorite

  part of that surface pro Cee'd put up

  last night was the analysis of where the

  money's going right I think that's

  telling and I think you're probably

  right that there's notice that they're

  going to have to start caramelizing

  their partners to get back to the you

  know to the thicker profit margins right

  and it's okay i really think I think

  about it it's a classic microsoft move

  when classic microsoft move is ballsy

  and aggressive but and it is but it's

  not ballsy an aggressive against apple

  even though its competitive against

  apple i'm sure they hope it really is

  but it's really the that the ones that

  they're really like punching in the face

  are there pcom makers yeah they're going

  to take all the money yeah well that's

  the goal

  yeah guy thanks for being here to


  so coming soon aged in distilled and we

  even got that we even got a product name

  napkin looking forward to that you've

  got a blog kicking bear dot-com is it

  calm yet where you often

  well not often but occasionally right

  very very smart stuff

  thank you anything else that I should

  thank you for that

  do you drink i'm not sure i had lost


  maybe yes let's say yes you'll be doing