Hello Internet

H.I. #1: Being Wrong on The Internet


  First of all I think the pod cast is a place where I'm going to be wrong quite a lot. [TS]

  That's a that's a really positive note [TS]

  and I'm going to guess maybe you're going to be wrong a lot as well unless you come prepared [TS]

  and I don't I don't know about that have you come prepared. [TS]

  I think you know me well enough to know that I have come prepared. But is that a bad thing. [TS]

  Like I know you don't like us. [TS]

  Well that's the impression I've always had it [TS]

  but like it doesn't bother you in conversation so why is it such a problem. [TS]

  Conversations are different right so you do know I get a little freaked out [TS]

  when I make those videos you know that's that's why I like a podcast is a different kind of thing right I can just I [TS]

  can just talk to you and the expectations the expectations are lowered. It's a different format. [TS]

  So you think because well because you've written a script there's a new a new level of responsibility on you on the [TS]

  Internet. If you're if you're making something for other people and it is it is a purportedly factual thing. [TS]

  And if you're not just a total jerk there's some kind of burden on you to make sure that what you're saying is correct [TS]

  and I think that that partly comes from just having having an audience of people who are interested in maybe hearing [TS]

  what you have to say you have to make sure that what you're saying to them is is right because those people are then [TS]

  going to maybe say what you told them to other people and it sort of spreads [TS]

  and if you said something that's wrong it's like you're making the world worse because you put out like this this [TS]

  incorrect piece of information that might also have a real chance of spreading to other people [TS]

  and to their conversations. And there's just there's just no good and that would make me feel very guilty. [TS]

  So these months that you famously spend researching video. [TS]

  Yes yes are you wanting them to be really correct because you feel this responsibility to make the world. [TS]

  Better place because you fear hateful comments and criticism which is it. [TS]

  I would say very honestly that that a huge part of it is actually that I just I don't want to be wrong in public right [TS]

  in such a such a visible way. It's a pride. [TS]

  Yeah there's a pride I guess the thing that I'm really the root that I'm really afraid of is if you go back [TS]

  and watch some of my videos in some of my videos. [TS]

  I am advocating for a position so the voting videos for example right. [TS]

  I am trying to convince people of something there. Or the video about the Electoral College. [TS]

  I'm trying to convince people how terrible the Electoral College is. [TS]

  Where the copyright video I'm trying to convince you I don't say it explicitly [TS]

  but I'm trying to convince you that that the copyright system that we currently have is kind of a terrible idea. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and the thing that I live in terror of on those days the days that I have uploaded a I'm trying to convince you video [TS]

  is that within the first thirty minutes someone is going to leave a comment that just demolish is my central argument [TS]

  and that is that is a terrifying thing to to worry about because you know I've just made this video I've put it up on [TS]

  the Internet a bunch of people are watching it right now I'm doing my best to try and convince you of something [TS]

  and then someone comes along and just devastatingly shows that I am incorrect [TS]

  and I'm very happy in casual conversations to try to change my mind and to discover that I am wrong about something [TS]

  and then to to adopt a correct opinion. [TS]

  But to have that process happen in front of maybe hundreds of thousands of people is kind of terribly embarrassing. [TS]

  So when I upload. [TS]

  I really don't want to be wrong and I do worry about the big house [TS]

  or the little thing that slipped through the net because something that was said to me by a very wise man it was very [TS]

  true that is when you're making an argument like the ones you're talking about there. [TS]

  It can be the small thing that undoes you because someone might point out you said that that treaty was signed on [TS]

  January thirteenth when in fact it was January fourteenth [TS]

  and suddenly they use that mistake to undermine every single other thing you said in your video your argument so you [TS]

  wear if you're going to get you're going to trip over the small thing or are you worried about something so huge [TS]

  and fundamental which seems like a hard a mistake to make. [TS]

  I worry about everything but I do have to keep my own sanity I do have a kind of hierarchy of errors [TS]

  and so at at the top of this the worst thing is what we've just been discussing is the your argument is invalid error. [TS]

  Someone comes along and just demolishes the thing with a sentence. [TS]

  There are lots and lots of factual errors that do creep into my videos and that it is just it is totally unavoidable. [TS]

  And that's a kind of mid-level error which is irritating [TS]

  but it's survivable if it's an error that doesn't relate to the main point necessarily so like you say the treaty [TS]

  saying you know if it's a get a you're wrong on the treaty. That's embarrassing. [TS]

  And if you have too many of those that can start to undermine your credibility. [TS]

  Yeah you know I think everyone makes mistakes sometimes. [TS]

  But if you if if you always get the treaty you're wrong right [TS]

  or if you're always doing something just a little bit off it does start to undermine your your main point. [TS]

  And at the bottom of this hierarchy I have things like pronunciation errors which I have made an embarrassingly large [TS]

  number of times and things like typos where I do my best to just totally ignore those. [TS]

  I think if I make a pronunciation error that that's OK That's an OK error to me. [TS]

  I'd rather not but I don't in my own opinion I don't think that really detracts from a central point but and [TS]

  but enough little mistakes like Treaty years that's that's a bad sign right that doesn't that doesn't help. [TS]

  So you'll be quite introspective here talking about you know how you feel about your videos [TS]

  and errors in them how do you feel watching other people's videos their no other content on the internet does it. [TS]

  Do you apply the same standards to other people that your blog here so often and get really upset [TS]

  when people make mistakes or do you think this is just something you apply to yourself. [TS]

  Well OK here's a great thing right when I watched your videos. [TS]

  Almost every time the person talking right is an expert on this topic and I have no ability to judge whether [TS]

  or not they they've made mistakes. [TS]

  Right there's an asymmetry here so I would say you know most of the educational videos that I watch on on youtube. [TS]

  I wouldn't even notice a mistake right the people who are making them are so much more integrated into the topic. [TS]

  And they've done so much more on it that they're always going to be super aware of the stakes that come up whereas I [TS]

  can't necessarily see that. [TS]

  I'm going to guess that you get e-mails from people who are wanting to correct mistakes in your in your videos right [TS]

  where you're then on the receiving end right you've made a video and you put it out there to the world [TS]

  and you know someone in the world knows more about a topic or they think need a more about a topic than you do [TS]

  and then they contact you. Like how do you deal with that. [TS]

  I mean I think I mean I guess in most cases like you say I've been interviewing experts so I am a step removed so I can [TS]

  always say hey it was my mistake. [TS]

  But that also I guess I have one extra level of protection that you don't have [TS]

  and that is that hardly any of my videos are scripted or pre-prepared and I guess that I like conversations [TS]

  and as we were saying at the start of this chat people forgive a lot more in conversations than perhaps they do in a [TS]

  script so if someone gets it. A rumble misspeaks or or just stuffs up. [TS]

  You can always say well hey you know there was no script we were just chatting how can you know he [TS]

  or she didn't know what questions I was going to ask how could you possibly expect them to say everything perfectly so [TS]

  I guess I have that extra level of protection that doesn't make the wrongness any less I think it makes it maybe less [TS]

  embarrassing in a way. So in terms of dealing with it I guess that's another thing to talk about. [TS]

  Once it's out there and it's wrong and it happens to everyone how do you deal with it. [TS]

  So for me personally the way out the way I look at this is I try to keep a record of all the mistakes I've made on my [TS]

  own blog and I'm actually going to try to see if I can call it up here. [TS]

  Right or not I want to read that I always live in the newspapers. [TS]

  The corrections section [TS]

  but with a correct mistakes from the previous day's paper like it's the best bit of the newspaper saying apologize for [TS]

  their mistakes. They don't and I love that you have one. [TS]

  It honestly is and I know I mentioned this on Reddit a few times before [TS]

  but my favorite my favorite mistakes section is the one published in The Economist magazine. [TS]

  There mistake section is just hilarious. [TS]

  Well it's normally hilarious because the errors they're correcting are so minor as to be laughable. [TS]

  Write that and I do I do look it over and I mean sometimes they have genuine mistakes right. [TS]

  Everyone does that but for the [TS]

  but for the most part you know I think they have a deep apologies for every minor minor mistakes [TS]

  and that I do I do appreciate that. [TS]

  That's probably really technically SMA too isn't it because you're probably thinking Gosh if they're apologizing for [TS]

  that everything else must be correct because they let nothing slip through the net. [TS]

  Yeah that is definitely it's a good P.R. Move. OK so I'm looking at my most famous video the U.K. [TS]

  One and I have I have a website where I kept track of. [TS]

  Things that I need to change [TS]

  and I got some of these are just embarrassing to look at if I haven't looked at this list in a long time [TS]

  and it is really uncomfortable. OK One of the very very top one I will tell you at the end. [TS]

  So remind me if I forget to burn the burning one. [TS]

  God this is awful too this is not so much a mistake as it was just terribly insensitive [TS]

  but I colored Northern Ireland orange at one time right. [TS]

  Yeah I was not aware of the political implications of coloring Northern Ireland orange [TS]

  but boy did I hear about that right after the video was uploaded. [TS]

  And so I have a note here that as you know in these are these are notes for if I ever redo this video do you know what [TS]

  to do to an island in orange Northern Ireland will be yellow not orange. [TS]

  And also OK so a minor mistake was I was trying to do the national colors to some extent and I reversed England [TS]

  and Wales I had. So England should be white whale should be red I had it reversed in the video. [TS]

  I neglected to mention that the United Kingdom is part of the Commonwealth realm I think I described it as being sort [TS]

  of above the Commonwealth realm like it rules over this thing not as part of the thing itself [TS]

  but you know here's the thing I'm going to mess up again if they don't know how to do it right. [TS]

  I mispronounced the Orkney Islands. Yeah that's right. Is that right is that right now. [TS]

  Yeah although I notoriously mispronounced everything in the U.K. As well. I'll take your word for it. [TS]

  Yeah I have got a house also Yeah I said the Church of England was the Church of the whole of the United Kingdom [TS]

  but it is not as the name itself might specify it is just the Church of England it is not the Church of Scotland as [TS]

  well. Don't do this to yourself. No it's I have I can feel your pain. Ah God This one this one just killed me. [TS]

  This really kills me too. [TS]

  I use the word sovereign in just the wrong way many times and I just I felt really dumb about that. [TS]

  I called constituent countries sovereign and this is not the correct term to use it all to describe the situation. [TS]

  This video is the foundation of your success is where it all started [TS]

  and you know you're undermining everything I believe in. [TS]

  Oh I know and then I have I have this hole that I messed up a couple of places in the order. [TS]

  I'm saying the British overseas territory in order of descending population [TS]

  and there were a couple that I got out of order which is also just very painful. Let me tell you this. [TS]

  OK I know this is about being wrong on the Internet and being wrong on the Internet is a bad thing [TS]

  but as someone who used to work in newspapers I can promise you being wrong in newspapers is worse because it's printed [TS]

  so many times and it's you know it's a hard copy everywhere and when you go out for a coffee break and you see piles [TS]

  and piles of the newspaper sitting in the shop with your. [TS]

  I'm page that has happened to me one of my first ever front page stories was about a big macho parade that was [TS]

  happening in my hometown and I swear I get into work the next day Mr front page thinking I was all that [TS]

  and then the book The boss called me over and said Have a look at that [TS]

  and I had the start of the parade happening at like nine P.M. Instead of nine A.M. [TS]

  So all these people would turn up at the wrong time and it was this I when I went from hero to zero very quickly. [TS]

  Oh the best example of this that didn't happen to may happen to my mom there was a solar eclipse. [TS]

  And he was given the job of writing a story with labor you know he doesn't know too much about solar eclipses [TS]

  and he obviously misunderstood something he was told and he wrote in the story on the front page of the paper. [TS]

  Big big news today. Do not look at the solar eclipse. And unless you are wearing sunglasses. [TS]

  Oh gosh you know look at it even if you are and it will set you to do that the newspaper had to like old T.V. [TS]

  Stations and radio stations in the city [TS]

  and have them put out these emergency broadcast saying don't do what it said in the newspaper today you will go blind. [TS]

  You mustn't do it and it became this huge huge huge incident [TS]

  and there's nothing you can do about it you can even take the video down. [TS]

  You can't kill the web page you can't print newspapers. You've just made this mistake that is there in hard copy. [TS]

  Oh that is terrible. [TS]

  Those those two are particularly bad because you are compelling someone to action in an incorrect way [TS]

  but eventually a permanently life changing kind of way. Yeah I'd rather have someone miss the parade and go blind. [TS]

  But yeah definitely it's a it's a terrible thing yet so I will I will grant you that. [TS]

  Those are particularly bad kinds of errors and just to have them one. [TS]

  Yet to have someone not know the perfect order of the British territories populations that is less bad than missing a [TS]

  parade or going blind. [TS]

  Yeah I was going to like you know turn up to the wrong country because they misunderstood gravity. [TS]

  Yeah I hope so anyway so someone might win the nominee although OK so now so now. [TS]

  Now compared to your story of potentially blinding people the error that burned in my soul is going to compare is going [TS]

  to just hail in comparison to it anyway they got here. [TS]

  So what's this one that's top of the list this is this is top of the list and I try not to think about it [TS]

  but I would just honestly be minding my own business [TS]

  and this mistake that I made in my first video will still just pop into my head and I feel great shame [TS]

  and somehow I'm going to talk about it publicly. Talk to the great come on right. [TS]

  So yes my name is and I have been wrong on the Internet. All right. [TS]

  So low so I thought I should go with the advice I give hard to even build up to this but. [TS]

  So in the video I am talking about the island of Ireland. [TS]

  Right so next year Great Britain we have the island itself the geographical entity just sitting to the west. [TS]

  Yeah that might just get into the western Great Britain [TS]

  and so in the end the video I can't remember the exact phrasing and how to laugh my head [TS]

  but I start to talk about you know the various places here [TS]

  and I say OK we have this island which is Ireland we have Northern Ireland which is part of the U.K. [TS]

  Which as we mentioned I already showed an orange right which is bad as well [TS]

  and then I move on to talk about the country that takes up the rest of the islands which I made a big point. [TS]

  I hammered it home that the name of this country is the Republic of Ireland. Now here's the problem. [TS]

  I am a citizen of this country. Yeah right. And I say is that the name is the Republican violence. [TS]

  And immediately after the video goes up I have a whole bunch of people e-mailing me going that's not the Republic of [TS]

  Ireland the place is called Ireland [TS]

  and I think this might even happen on a public forum that might be a record of this somewhere. [TS]

  I got into an argument with a guy where I said I know the name of the Republic of Ireland. [TS]

  You don't know what you're talking about. I'm a citizen of this country. [TS]

  That's the name and he says that's not the name. And I go Yes it is I have my passport in the other room. [TS]

  I checked it before I made the video. That's the official name. He goes check again. I go fine I will. [TS]

  I walk into the next room. I look at the passport and it says Ireland. It does not say Republic of Ireland. [TS]

  And it just it it burns in my soul that I made a point of it in the video to say. [TS]

  You know people don't think it's called Ireland but it's you know it's really the Republic of Ireland [TS]

  and Ireland just means the island itself. [TS]

  Right and I'm a citizen of this place and I got it wrong in such a public way and I thought I had checked it [TS]

  but obviously my my brain was already pre committed to this piece of information and so [TS]

  when I glanced at my passport my brain was like oh yeah it's the Republic of Ireland that's what it says in that piece [TS]

  of paper don't look too closely. [TS]

  You know you have to you know change your beliefs [TS]

  and God is just awful I'm getting I'm going to put in a few people are going to say. [TS]

  People can say why not take the video down or replace [TS]

  or perhaps you know I guess I don't know if this is really obvious to people or not [TS]

  or whether it's something that it's more people who make videos think that perhaps you should point out why you haven't [TS]

  just pulled down this video [TS]

  and corrected it would you know it was a hard thing to say technically your title right there there's a couple things [TS]

  here. But but the technical side is that it is it is difficult on You Tube to do this. [TS]

  And so you cannot edit a video that is in place in the You Tube system. [TS]

  I cannot submit a fixed version of the video and have You Tube replace it with and I'm like [TS]

  and I was set up that that is the problem there with the same link. [TS]

  And this is both a blessing and a curse because I've I've spoken to other You Tubers about this. [TS]

  If You Tube did allow people to correct the video to upload an amended version I would still only have that one video [TS]

  right. [TS]

  I would I would have just spent all of my time revising and perfecting [TS]

  and changing a whole bunch of stuff in it because even if I watch it now there's a couple places where I know there's a [TS]

  few little little visual glitches you know and then listening to it again I think I'll go. [TS]

  What I have to just record the whole of the audio right which would then doubtlessly introduce some kind of additional [TS]

  error which then I would have to fix. [TS]

  So if You Tube did allow me to replace the videos I would have only made one video so it is a blessing in the sense [TS]

  that it forces me to move forward [TS]

  but it is it's a curse because it forces you to live with your mistakes right which is which is why I think I tend to [TS]

  obsess about the stuff so much because you know once it is up there you cannot change it. [TS]

  Come up with something else out there that I want to talk to you about because I know you're a stickler for things [TS]

  being right. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and I don't want to come across as the advocate for romance because I hate wrongness as well you know I think that obviously [TS]

  I've obviously has to be your position right you're the advocate for wrong as you are making any kind of argument [TS]

  there's no there's no greater It's all black and white. [TS]

  Let me put this to you I don't know if it's a term you're familiar with but I mean I used to work for the P.D. [TS]

  Cena Nady and this is TELL they say wrong but not for long. [TS]

  And what that refers to is usually when there's like a breaking news story. [TS]

  OK I'll give you an example say there's been some some catastrophe or something's happened something something serious. [TS]

  Well I don't want to belittle serious catastrophes but they happen and there's a lot of interest in them and [TS]

  when that happens and institution of the B.B.C. [TS]

  Which sort of prides itself on correctness is very cautious [TS]

  and they're very careful about what they broadcast them say [TS]

  and they won't release any information about maybe casualties and names [TS]

  and information until it's been you know triple checked and confirmed by the appropriate source [TS]

  and signed in triplicate. And then you get your T.V. Stations perhaps like in the U.K. [TS]

  Sky which is you know a news network and they are perhaps a bit more cavalier about things [TS]

  and now they just say what they know [TS]

  or what they hear speculation you know we're hearing that they could be five people dead. [TS]

  And then if it turns out they're wrong or they're wrong. [TS]

  So long and now I'll change and say well actually it turns out no one's died or that it might be. [TS]

  Turns out it's even worse than we thought and this has happened and I used to work for the B.B.C. [TS]

  and We used to sit in meetings sometimes and discuss this cavalier attitude and all the B.B.C. [TS]

  People be very sniffy and smug and say what we would never do that and it's irresponsible to be incorrect. [TS]

  But when these things happen when when a big story like this happens I find myself gravitating towards the sky [TS]

  or the more gossipy the more gossipy ones because most of the time it turns out they're right and their rights are [TS]

  and I think there's a case to be made for risking wrongness for the sake of sort of time and information. [TS]

  It's the same if you read a story like on the B.B.C. [TS]

  Website you'll read some story that will say this politician has resigned in disgrace [TS]

  and I won't tell you any more information and the first thing you do is you go straight to the tabloids and stuff [TS]

  and if you find out this is what they're really going to have a mistress and I was with this celebrity and right right. [TS]

  So where do you stand on tolerating the risk of wrongness for the sake of it. [TS]

  I don't like gossip or information or just fast information I think I think you [TS]

  and I in this in this ten episode series we should see if we can do one on the news because I think we can have a whole [TS]

  a whole separate conversation about that. Yeah but but for the fourth episode has done that. [TS]

  Yeah I think I think we could have a lot to talk about there. [TS]

  I would say that the whole reason that those tabloids exist is because you're exactly right where the B.B.C. [TS]

  Is all stiff upper lip and you know someone has resigned and we're not going to tell you why. [TS]

  Right and of course of course you want to know why people want to know the gossip [TS]

  and that's why other news channels can exist right because you. [TS]

  Go over and you see right even if you are even if you hold the B.B.C. [TS]

  In high regard and you know you would never trust anything from anywhere else. [TS]

  You're still going to go and try to find out more information. [TS]

  Yeah that's just human nature [TS]

  and I think I have a real problem with that just because of naturally people's short attention spans [TS]

  and the way people memories work is that well sure a news organization can say that they're wrong but not for long. [TS]

  Oh we corrected it later. [TS]

  But lots of people don't pay attention for the full duration of the story and they all know and I know why Sky [TS]

  or no other news organization actually uses the slogan wrong replied. [TS]

  Yeah I didn't I didn't mean that like that's the banner underneath the sky. [TS]

  That's when I think of selling point what it was like What. So OK I I you know if I was if I was in charge of some T.V. [TS]

  News organization I would try to resist that pressure but I'm not going to I'm not going to sit here [TS]

  and say oh you know what those other news organizations are terrible for doing it. [TS]

  I understand structurally why it happens. I would just say I think that that's that's not good. [TS]

  I think that that doesn't that doesn't help anybody the wrong [TS]

  but not for a long kind of attitude of like you made a mistake. [TS]

  But you're going to going to correct it later [TS]

  but I do think this kind of is kind of segues into the issue of how much time can you spend researching anything. [TS]

  Yeah and I was going to say how much I love your videos [TS]

  but you are the worst person in the world to run a news network that something would happen [TS]

  and it would be like six months later do you actually made a video about it. [TS]

  Yes that is right [TS]

  but I would like to hear about you know where is the where is the kind of point that is a that's a really interesting [TS]

  thing to hear your opinion. You know you're right I would drive any. [TS]

  News organization just straight into the ground right just destroyed. [TS]

  And yeah it's a problem because you can't research stuff forever. And news T.V. [TS]

  News [TS]

  or newspapers with a breaking story there on a certain they're on the cutting edge of one side of that the quick side. [TS]

  But but even on the long side right so you know on average it takes me sort of five weeks to make the videos [TS]

  and they still feel rushed. [TS]

  From my perspective it honestly I have never made a video [TS]

  and thought you know boy I had just the right amount of time I have always thought I could I could use another five [TS]

  weeks to really iron this out. [TS]

  But you know I have to draw a line and say no you can't spend another five weeks on this. [TS]

  You need to finish it [TS]

  and just record an animated over the weekend to just get it done right you can't continue to research. [TS]

  I want the videos to be perfect [TS]

  but the the cost the way I look at it the cost of perfection is infinite in terms of time and in terms of resources. [TS]

  So you're always going to have to make some judgment call about how reliable is the source [TS]

  or how many experts do you want to contact before you're OK with this and I mean I will give you I will give you a. [TS]

  I'll give you an example of a place where I thought my ten tendencies to continue to research [TS]

  and this this might sound crazy [TS]

  but for the last video about the CBOE effect I was really nervous about this because I felt a little bit responsible in [TS]

  a video like this where I'm talking about medical stuff right. [TS]

  I'm not talking about history [TS]

  and I felt like there was a greater burden in a video that touches upon a medical topic to make sure that it's really [TS]

  all correct. [TS]

  Yeah and so I ended up going through a whole bunch of research archives online trying to find papers from doctors [TS]

  or researchers who had worked on this this know CBOE effect you know the opposite of the placebo. Yeah. [TS]

  And I ended up sending out about twenty emails to people who had published a bunch of papers [TS]

  and I ended up getting I think in the end I got six people to reply and they had looked over the script [TS]

  and basically every one of them gave it a thumbs up and amazing for most of them I got a thumbs up [TS]

  and a by the way you cannot mention my name or the organization that I work for. [TS]

  You know I can't have it be publicly known that I like gave is the thumbs up right because they face a similar kinds of [TS]

  kinds of issues but they just say if I said the places where these people worked everybody would recognize the names. [TS]

  But even after I'm getting thumbs up from people in the field I had this feeling of OK I have to [TS]

  but I have to really make sure I let me how many. [TS]

  Let me wait until I get responses from more doctors or and that [TS]

  and that is the point where it is clearly just insanity. [TS]

  And I had to say OK I just have to stop there and I have a thumbs up from actual doctors. [TS]

  I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to record the script [TS]

  but my nephew doing the tipping point for you kind of that kind of rational thought that you know well I can't do it [TS]

  forever and I have to draw an arbitrary line. Or is it just the need to eat. [TS]

  Well I mean that is the ugly side of the business is that at a certain point you have to pay your own bills. [TS]

  Right which is which is what I don't exactly have but fairly close have a monthly cycle. [TS]

  There is there is that pressure on one side of it right I can't release one video a year because I will be homeless at [TS]

  that. [TS]

  That just is not practical [TS]

  but it is it is something I keep in mind very much that that the cost of perfection is infinite [TS]

  and so you have you have to draw the line somewhere [TS]

  but with the last video it was very difficult because I was I was extra worried [TS]

  and I think because of that I might not be doing another medical topic any time soon because that was a that was a very [TS]

  stressful experience and I was very nervous when that one went live for quite a while. [TS]

  I kept I kept waiting for some e-mail that would just you know make the whole empire crumble. [TS]

  And fortunately it hasn't come yet. [TS]

  Let me ask you something else and I'm I'm not I mean I'm I'm conscious of time and we can't talk forever. [TS]

  Oh yeah I'm sure we could talk forever. [TS]

  But you do talk there that sort of sources and I and this does tie into things wrong on the Internet. Yeah yeah. [TS]

  How much do you trust the internet. [TS]

  Will he use the Internet as a source or we only trust sources like human beings [TS]

  and I know you spent a lot time in libraries and things like that. Is can the Internet be trusted. [TS]

  The Internet represents a whole lot of things. So I think with where this comes up the most is like with Wikipedia. [TS]

  You know so right so [TS]

  when I used to teach kids there was there was a fierce debate between teachers on the pro vs the anti Wikipedia side [TS]

  and I always came down very strongly on the pro side [TS]

  and I told my students if they were researching something for me like Wikipedia is totally OK copy [TS]

  and pasting from Wikipedia is not. But there's no place to get a better overview from things. [TS]

  You'd be amazed the number of times I've been with like top professors in the field in asking a question [TS]

  and I said I'm not to sure about that let me check and gone straight to work. Yeah so. [TS]

  So here's the thing either it all depends on on what do you need [TS]

  and if if you just want to check some quick fact about something which is totally reliable there's reasons why you [TS]

  can't cite it as a source but ignoring that. For the time being. [TS]

  We compete for a huge number of people's needs is totally fine. [TS]

  The thing that I have and I've complained about this on Twitter sometimes [TS]

  but the thing that I am occasionally disturbed by is if I see something interesting on a weekly article for a topic [TS]

  that I'm pre researching I will go through the sources [TS]

  and try to find the original source of some comment that is mentioned in the Wiki article [TS]

  or the original source of some statistic that is mentioned that extra material to talk to another day. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that's just it right. [TS]

  You can't you can't you know you can't just make a video from the Wikipedia page right. It's not possible. [TS]

  But but the thing that is disturbing is the number of times that that source link doesn't go anywhere [TS]

  or I have found [TS]

  and sometimes where the context of the source link says something that is completely contrary to the feeling that you [TS]

  got from the Wikipedia page itself. [TS]

  And so nothing in the world is perfectly reliable and it's it is hard to know when to trust a source completely [TS]

  and you know for me again while the why we can have a conversation about newspapers all the time for me. [TS]

  General newspapers you know T.V. [TS]

  News that that is the absolute bottom of the barrel for me right that is that is if you want an accurate representation [TS]

  of knowledge of the state of the world that is the worst place that you could possibly start discussing a whole bunch [TS]

  of people with this I'm going to protest. Yes well your former work colleagues. [TS]

  Yeah maybe don't share this with them most of my best friends though so I try to write so that that is at the bottom of [TS]

  my list. But it but it gets really ambiguous very quickly. [TS]

  And it is ultimately going to have to come down to some judgment call that I have to make [TS]

  and that's that is not easy to articulate because sometimes but [TS]

  when you're looking at statistics the organization producing those statistics has some agenda right there pro [TS]

  or anti something [TS]

  and I think on the Internet too often people will just dismiss that they'll say oh you can't trust it is that from that [TS]

  organization because they're pro whatever. [TS]

  But an interesting question is maybe they're pro whatever because because of those statistics. [TS]

  Yeah right that you know there has to be some actual state of the universe. [TS]

  Right there's some state of this thing that is correct. [TS]

  And so there's going to be some organization that is advocating for that thing because of those statistics [TS]

  or against the thing whatever it is [TS]

  and that is yeah I don't have a solid answer for that it ultimately just comes down to a judgment call [TS]

  and it is very very hard sometimes to know who to trust. And at one point what point you have to stop. Stop looking. [TS]

  I will just mention one one last thing here quickly which is I wish I could come up with an example off the top of my [TS]

  head but the number of times I've been looking at some historical stuff [TS]

  and I come across information about how some historical figure the existence of this person is not certain [TS]

  and I find that just fascinating [TS]

  and I think history is a topic in particular where the realm of the unknown is very large. [TS]

  And here's a case where I won't I won't venture venture to be wrong I'll just be vague. [TS]

  Yeah I know this is true for one of the Greek philosophers that there is there is a serious debate over whether [TS]

  or not they existed or whether they were just a debating tool in the writings of other philosophers. [TS]

  And that's probably not going to ever be solved. Yeah right. We'll never know maybe if if you know Greek philosopher X. [TS]

  Was real or not real or if they were just a rhetorical device that was used by everyone at the time or an amalgamation. [TS]

  Robin Hood has sort of said today this amalgamation of a whole bunch of different rogues around at the time [TS]

  and they get sort of merged into one to the road. [TS]

  Right that's the same kind of thing an infinite amount of research is never going to make that situation any more clear [TS]

  that you know there's only so much data that has survived [TS]

  and you run into those kinds of situations as well which is very strange [TS]

  and sometimes very hard to talk about without trying to be wrong [TS]

  or stating something too clearly which is one of the reasons why I can say my videos take a very long time because I [TS]

  think sometimes if you listen to my wording I have chosen very careful wording to not explicitly say something [TS]

  when I [TS]

  when I run into those kinds of situations where you know maybe maybe we don't know maybe there's some amount of uncertainty [TS]

  about this thing [TS]

  and so I think very hard about how to get past something without necessarily bringing this up is a big problem. [TS]

  And I mean I guess the other thing about internet wrongness that sort of flows from that in some ways is that we [TS]

  haven't touched on is the amazing ability now for incorrect information to propagate replicate. [TS]

  Spread wildly and it's become this crazy Google searches show that all the time day he went to so [TS]

  and so is sighting so and so's starting zone sound you like Lagaan. [TS]

  Oh just happened so quickly and so you know pervading. Yeah you come across these this sort of information. [TS]

  Infinite loops where the citations just go in a circle and that is very disturbing. [TS]

  Or it's very hard to find out the original source of the thing because it's just so convoluted [TS]

  and it makes you think of the quote right which jumps right into my head which is that you know the a lie gets halfway [TS]

  around the world before the truth has a chance to put pants on which is usually quoted to Winston Churchill. [TS]

  But if you look into that it's it is not clear where this first came from. [TS]

  It's quoted do a whole bunch of people [TS]

  and I love that there's this quote about this spreading of incorrect information. [TS]

  The origin of it is also uncertain and I think that's those kinds of things which is very interesting sometimes [TS]

  and we live in a world where things are just uncertain it is you can't know [TS]

  or one hundred percent I mean unless you're a mathematician I guess mathematicians know one hundred percent. [TS]

  I think there's one thing we know almost one hundred percent and that's that at times pretty much come to an end. [TS]

  We're going to do another one of they say What do you reckon. OK I think that sounds good I think that sounds good. [TS]

  All right good and going to see a time there. Yeah I'll talk to later but I have to. [TS]