Hello Internet

H.I. #2: Copyright Not Intended


  You know very good and I know I can normally do it it's just that you're looking. [TS]

  Now wait before we can so we can start with the main topic we have to start with some follow up. Oh really. [TS]

  Yes What would you do previously I've already forgotten. [TS]

  Well well last time we were we were talking about being wrong on the Internet being on the internet so I was left out [TS]

  now at the time we're recording this. The pod casts have not gone live so we haven't had any listener feedback. [TS]

  It's like a secret still is and yes it is it is a very rich and the you and I know that this is just the two of us. [TS]

  When I was editing the previous podcast I heard myself say something that I just I had to correct in this one so I made [TS]

  a note for follow up that is coming from me about last last week's episode. [TS]

  So you're responding to feedback from yourself. [TS]

  Yes that's right I am responding to feedback from myself because you did something wrong in a video that being wrong. [TS]

  That's right [TS]

  and this is sort of delightful as a first up as a first follow up section is that I called the Economist The Economist [TS]

  magazine. [TS]

  Right now as bad as it is because the economist makes a makes a very strong point about always calling themselves a [TS]

  newspaper and so when they write opinion pieces they always say this newspaper I think you know whatever it is. [TS]

  And they're very they're very picky about this. [TS]

  And so they like to be referred to as a newspaper [TS]

  and so I would I have to say that as a first piece of follow up I would apologize to the economist for saying the [TS]

  Economist magazine I should have said The Economist newspaper. It does look more like a magazine doesn't it. [TS]

  Yeah if you ever get your hands on one it looks totally like a magazine which is why this is this is I think going to [TS]

  be the problem with podcasts for us in the future you know in this in this little series is that I know that they call [TS]

  themselves a newspaper but it looks so much like a magazine even though I know the correct thing. [TS]

  Right I said the wrong thing. [TS]

  I'm sure that's going to happen lots and I went to look it up and it originally was a newspaper [TS]

  and so actually I saw an original copy of the original economist My library has one from eight hundred forty three [TS]

  and it looks like a real big New York Times he kind of newspaper. [TS]

  So it apparently started as a newspaper [TS]

  and then on their website they have a little thing about how they slowly transitioned into a magazine form [TS]

  but they're still calling themselves a newspaper so well that was a good thing. [TS]

  That's yeah but I don't know what to say to that [TS]

  but I do find it interesting we've spent this law dealing with corrections in feedback from a podcast that no one's [TS]

  heard have been people actually hearing. [TS]

  Well yes that's why it would not surprise me if the later episodes of this little run are basically entirely feedback [TS]

  that that would not surprise me if that ends up being the case. [TS]

  Today sponsor is audible dot com a leading provider of spoken audio information [TS]

  and entertainment to listen to audio books whenever and wherever you want. [TS]

  That's the official part they want me to read [TS]

  and now this is just me I want you the listener to know that I actually reached out to audible dot com on purpose [TS]

  because they're a product that I use every day. [TS]

  Audio books are a huge part of my personal life and my working life [TS]

  and I feel like my entire life has just been bridged by their existence and I've been an audible user for many years. [TS]

  As I'm recording this right now I'm about to go into a long weekend of animating my next video which is incredibly [TS]

  tedious work and it is exactly the kind of thing that I just could not get through without something to listen to. [TS]

  So I'm going to be in the market for a new audio book to find for myself. [TS]

  Now I would recommend something to you and that is one of my all time favorite audio books. [TS]

  Stephen King's On Writing the book a sort of half a memoir and half Stephen King's advice on writing [TS]

  but even if you're not a huge Stephen King fan it's a very interesting book and Steve. [TS]

  I'm king has lived an unusual life [TS]

  and I also want to have this be my first on a recommendation because I think it's a great example of how audio books [TS]

  can be better than just a regular book. [TS]

  I first read the paper version of On Writing many years ago I think when it first came out and it was good [TS]

  and I enjoyed it. [TS]

  But the version on Audible is actually narrated by Stephen King himself and I have to say it adds so much to the book. [TS]

  He really puts a lot of emphasis on parts of the book which I didn't really notice the first time going through [TS]

  but then by listening to his voice it's obvious that this is hugely important to him [TS]

  or this is the thing that really irritates him and he's a great narrator so [TS]

  and writing is just a perfect example of how the audio book has way more to offer than the dead tree edition so I [TS]

  highly recommend it. And because audible are awesome you can listen to that for free. [TS]

  You can get a free audiobook and a thirty day trial by signing up at Audible dot com slash hello internet. [TS]

  All one word using that U.R.L. [TS]

  Is how audible knows that you came from this podcast and so not only do you get yourself a free book [TS]

  but you help make this pod cast experiment a successful one. [TS]

  So once again that is audible dot com slash hello internet. [TS]

  There will be a link in the description of the podcast if you just want to click it [TS]

  but otherwise just type in audible dot com slash hello internet and get your free audiobook and thirty day trial. [TS]

  OK that's enough from me in the future and now we're going to go back to the conversation about copyright. [TS]

  Today we're talking about copyright. [TS]

  Yes I think that's what we settled on for today's topic this is really interesting up from a this is really interesting [TS]

  because this is this is a front I feel like I'm attacked on from both sides because as someone who creates content [TS]

  and therefore has to use you know use material I can sort of tread into the copyright field in that way. [TS]

  But then someone who actually creates content that I don't I can kind of be on the other on the receiving end of [TS]

  problems of copyright so it's a. [TS]

  It's going to be interesting to see to hear what positions we may or may not have on this. [TS]

  Yeah I'm actually I'm actually very curious to hear where you stand on this issue yourself because I think you you [TS]

  might deal with it much more directly than I do. So I'm not I'm not exactly sure where to start. [TS]

  I think we should say a good point is the people who may not know your position is quite well known on this I guess [TS]

  because you have made a video on it. [TS]

  And before we before we had this chat I admitted to you that I hadn't watched the video [TS]

  and then so I went to have a quick look at it and it turns out I had watched the video. [TS]

  So I have watched the video twice once a year ago and once again today. [TS]

  And you make a lot of different points [TS]

  and it's perhaps not best for me to capture a lot of them do you want to encapsulate the essence of your argument in [TS]

  that famous video. [TS]

  OK Well that is going to have to be embarrassing because I watch my own video this morning because I couldn't I [TS]

  couldn't remember the video very well to be honest I was the only one you know what I remember complaining about some [TS]

  stuff I thought I have to. [TS]

  After you watch this thing and I have the unusual the unusual effect of watching this [TS]

  and I thought I don't think that guy is very convincing. [TS]

  I'm not sure that this was this was the best possible video to be made about copyright and so I look at that [TS]

  and I'm actually when I was watching it today I thought I'm not sure what conclusion other people would draw. [TS]

  After having watched this I having seen it I feel like I'm I I now think that I made much of a less clear point in that [TS]

  video than the I think two years ago now. Me thought that I was making you want to do what I took from that. [TS]

  Well that's how I'm trying to lead up to this is what do you think you could just ask you could have asked me out [TS]

  and what do you what do you think I was saying in that I mean you made you made a lot of points as you did. [TS]

  He made a lot of points in a short space of time. [TS]

  The two main things I took from one of which I quite agreed with and the other one I wouldn't say I disagreed with [TS]

  but it didn't sit very comfortably with me. [TS]

  The first point [TS]

  and the one that I completely agreed with was that the argument for copyright in this increasingly this increasing [TS]

  amount of protection for the creators of the content to have this what if you know rigorous copyright protection. [TS]

  Their argument is spurious their argument that encourage the creation of more content is not a particularly valid [TS]

  argument. [TS]

  And I think you make that argument quite well and I can say that and I'm sure we might discuss that in a minute [TS]

  but the other thing I took from him was yes I think it came across that you had this attitude that anyone should be [TS]

  allowed to create anything from other people's creations. [TS]

  You used the example of Star Wars qua along in your in your video [TS]

  and that it almost came across that you felt that anyone should be able to create their own stories their own back [TS]

  stories their own future their own modifications of the characters [TS]

  and the Star Wars universe would you know expand even more than it already has and. [TS]

  I followed your argument for it but it just didn't sit comfortably with me. [TS]

  I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm open to hear you talk about it some more. [TS]

  But that part of your argument didn't sit comfortably with me [TS]

  and I actually sat there thinking why should everyone just be able to take the Star Wars universe [TS]

  or take someone else's stories and make up their own stories. [TS]

  I don't think that's encouraging creativity necessarily isn't that discouraging [TS]

  and just saying well let's just keep modifying the same old stories. [TS]

  Yeah so you picked up on the exact part that I was watching [TS]

  and I thought current me is not super convinced by previous muse arguments on that. [TS]

  On that part of it as well because I was aware that I was I was talking about telling stories in the Star Wars universe [TS]

  or telling stories in the Harry Potter universe [TS]

  and I thought the same thing like I'm not convinced by this this was this this could have been better you know what if [TS]

  I were to redo it. Is it still your position. [TS]

  So OK before before I say my explicit position I think I want to I want to just lay out a couple of things that we're [TS]

  going to talk about. [TS]

  OK so so copyright is a kind of intellectual property and just for terms for the rest of the conversation right. [TS]

  There are three main kinds of intellectual property rights intellectual property there's copyrights patents [TS]

  and trademarks rights a trademark is like Coca-Cola right you can't sell soda and call it Coca-Cola. [TS]

  That's a trademark. Nobody really has a problem with trademarks it doesn't really come up in a debate. [TS]

  It's the least contentious of the three. [TS]

  Yeah there's patents which I don't want to get derailed in [TS]

  but just you know briefly the vague idea is that you invent something [TS]

  and in the United States you get about twenty years depending on what kind of thing you get a twenty year protection on [TS]

  your invention yet and then there's copyright which is for creative works. [TS]

  So not things like technology but you write a story and then you have the copyright for that story. Yeah. [TS]

  Those are three kinds of things and I think here here is how I get to this position [TS]

  and I think what I was if I was going to remake that video what I might try to mold into a more concise argument is [TS]

  that I think there's a real analogy between patents expiring and copyright. [TS]

  Spring I think about it this way so the Apple Corporation invented the i Phone in two thousand and seven. [TS]

  What didn't happen is that you know they didn't like Steve Jobs didn't wander into the forest as a as a pure human with [TS]

  no tools or anything and like carved from stone and nothing and i Phone right. And you know people would believe that. [TS]

  But yeah right like he didn't bring it down from on the mountain you know just like wrought by his own greatness [TS]

  and i Phone can only exist if you live in a world that has a certain amount of technology that has already progressed [TS]

  to this point. So this is kind of standing on the shoulders of giants type argument. [TS]

  That's exactly right it's standing on the shoulders of giants [TS]

  and in the original keynote he actually has a little line where he's talking about Multi Touch you know the touching [TS]

  the screen in multiple places and he literally says something like this is the i Phone [TS]

  and you know yes we sure have patented the heck out of it. Yeah. Now the thing is with us. [TS]

  I think that the comparison to think about is that we as a society have decided that patents only last twenty years. [TS]

  And so yes it is going to expire. And the reason is because you didn't make it all of yourself. [TS]

  You over this kind of debt to everyone who came before you [TS]

  and the limited nature of a patent means that at some point the work that you have done will be available for people in [TS]

  the future to build on as well as I can. And I think it's really it's obvious if you talk about patents. [TS]

  If you imagine a world where you know whatever the patents are for the i Phone or for the light bulb or for anything. [TS]

  If you think about a world where they lasted as long as copyright lasts. Yeah. Which I. [TS]

  At the time of this recording I think in the United States lifetime of the creator plus seventy years I think is a long [TS]

  time. It's a very long time where you can immediately see how that would just destroy technological progress. [TS]

  Yeah right. [TS]

  If Alexander Graham Bell patents the telephone were here you know one hundred fifty years later [TS]

  and still only the bell Corp can produce all of the telephones in America you know the sort of you sort of said a [TS]

  moment ago that the reason for the expiration of the patents was to kind of you know it's it's the debt you pay back to [TS]

  those that came before. I see it more as preventing a whole bunch of dead ends everywhere you know. [TS]

  It stops it stops progress being played out right. [TS]

  Right that's that's another good point I think this is yet this is something which is important to society [TS]

  and you apply the same thing to inventing death Neda. Right yeah. [TS]

  So this that that's great right because I think the reason that copyrights are such a contentious issue. [TS]

  At least in the world of the Internet right this is a thing that comes up all the time argument over copyright law [TS]

  and it's because I think that creative works are similar to something like patents. [TS]

  It's kind of similar to like a technological progress but it's not quite the same. [TS]

  And so but my general thought is this is that no artistic work a book or a movie [TS]

  or anything exists independent from the society in which it was created. [TS]

  So there's a there's a great great great series of videos on You Tube called Everything is a remix by this guy Kirby [TS]

  Ferguson I think is his last name. Have you seen it. I haven't. It's a third of it is really worth watching. [TS]

  Yeah and he just he goes through a couple of fields he does music and he does movies [TS]

  and something else a three part series and he shows for example he takes Star Wars as an example [TS]

  and shows how the famous like opening crawls that go at an angle the opening introduction which is so iconically Star [TS]

  Wars it was not first done in Star Wars it was done in these other space movies from earlier times [TS]

  and he just shows how everything that you can you can find is built on stuff that came before it. [TS]

  And in fairness to George Lucas who took he has taken a beating from you [TS]

  when he made the Star Wars movies in the Indiana Jones movies he was always very open about how much they droop [TS]

  and oh yeah those cereals and things. [TS]

  Yeah yeah this is something that I think is is really interesting is that people in the field are totally aware of this. [TS]

  But directors definitely mentioned that's where you can find tons of interviews [TS]

  or people saying they're recreating scenes shot for shot from old movies. Yeah right. [TS]

  You're building on the past and they almost take a pride in it and I like it. Yeah yeah. [TS]

  And so to me there's a there's a similar kind of of almost like a societal debt the same way with patents right. [TS]

  You couldn't just have made Star Wars all on your own right. [TS]

  Or you know people who write books like the the world of literature depends on what has come before. [TS]

  It doesn't just exist in isolation. [TS]

  So it's almost like a tax is it almost like you know the price you pay from society enriching you enough to create [TS]

  Harry Potter is that one day they get Harry Potter back. Well I really don't like the phrasing of of attacks. [TS]

  It's explicitly a motive I'll give you now but that's that's why you're good at asking questions right. I do not I do. [TS]

  Like then that phrasing because I will try to argue against it right here. [TS]

  Here's the thing that I think is easy to forget is that copyright is a is a constructed thing right. [TS]

  We don't have to live in a world where copyright exists it is. [TS]

  Copyright is a temporary monopoly over the distribution of a creative work enforced by the government wherever you [TS]

  happen to live. [TS]

  Yeah right so it is a thing that is legally created [TS]

  and I think once you start talking about incentives on a governmental level you have to start thinking about what are [TS]

  they for. I think without a doubt more artistic works are created because copyright exists. [TS]

  Right which might not be the impression that everybody gets from my videos based on the comments. [TS]

  Definitely definitely not rightly run slightly against the feeling of that video. [TS]

  Right and so people watch that video and they think that I am I am a copyright abolitionist is the usual term [TS]

  but I want to get rid of all copyrights [TS]

  and that is that is actually not my position at all I think that if there if there were no copyrights there would still [TS]

  be artistic works created by people would still paint and write books and things like this [TS]

  but I don't think that there would be as many large scale expensive projects brought to bear like a Star Wars right. [TS]

  Well I love Star Wars and I'm glad Star Wars exists [TS]

  and I'm pretty sure that nobody no no studio would have invested the amount of money to [TS]

  or to make something like that if there was any kind of copyright protection. [TS]

  Even back in one nine hundred seventy seven [TS]

  when the technology of distribution was horrific compared to how it is today it still wouldn't have made financial [TS]

  sense to make it. If eaters could have just you know taken reels from each other and displayed it everywhere. [TS]

  So I improve Oh copyrights. [TS]

  The problem that I have is with the functionally infinite position that copyright has now that basically copyright [TS]

  lasts forever [TS]

  but every time it's come up where something might start entering the public domain copyright has been extended another [TS]

  ten twenty years you know whatever it is depending on the particular law so that that is the problem that I have with [TS]

  it as I think we should have a limited copyright but I would definitely not be in favor of removing copyright entirely. [TS]

  I think that that would have a detrimental effect. [TS]

  Do you have a number in mind here or are you just saying that the balance of power is inadequate. [TS]

  When can I take your U.K. Video and upload it to my own channel. Right right right. [TS]

  I don't I don't I'm not necessarily interested in arguing where the boundaries should be. [TS]

  Yeah because I feel like any numbers that I would come up with would be just semi arbitrary right here. [TS]

  I don't have any idea what the optimal number would be [TS]

  and I also think it's a weird situation because the optimal number for someone like myself who depends on copyright for [TS]

  a living on You Tube might be very different from a multi-million dollar multi-year film project like to get off of [TS]

  Star Wars like The Lord Of The Rings right. [TS]

  God knows how much those movies cost to make [TS]

  and you know if you ask the studio executives It may turn out that they're actually counting on a ten year return on [TS]

  their money for it considering a project like that I don't know. [TS]

  So I guess it my intuitive feeling is that anything less than five years I would feel like that. [TS]

  That seems very small and anything more than a hundred years would feel like Gosh that's a long time. Right right. [TS]

  But between between those two boundaries I'm much more interested in just copyright being limited that I am in exactly [TS]

  where those boundaries are. [TS]

  If if United States tomorrow said we're just setting Copyrighted one hundred years I would consider that a huge victory [TS]

  I would think that would be great if they if there was an actual cutoff point for when things enter the public domain. [TS]

  What inspired you to make that copyright video you did make. [TS]

  Like was it was a frustration you are having trying to source material for your own videos was it where you want to [TS]

  write your own stuff like comical. What fun if you have a better quality about didn't it. [TS]

  Yeah it was it was the secret Star Wars fan fiction that I wanted to write. [TS]

  No no that was not the reason I had to look back at the exact timeline but that was around the point [TS]

  when I was beginning to take making videos more seriously [TS]

  and so I was running into copyright problems more often in the sense of limitations of things that just can't be used. [TS]

  Sometimes that word just seemingly absurdly old stuff that still couldn't be used recently by some image you might want [TS]

  to use in a video or something. [TS]

  Yeah the image is something that I come across the most often where you know it even trying to track down the person [TS]

  who took this image would be a daunting task [TS]

  but since I like to play it relatively safe you know find some image from you know one nine hundred thirty six you know [TS]

  and you can't use that even though the photographer is almost certainly not around anymore because that still falls [TS]

  under you know the copyright length in the United States. So I think that that can be partly partly a frustration. [TS]

  Are you ever a victim like we were sort of talking about these big hope. [TS]

  Nations they these big baddies like you create content and presumably it gets appropriated sometimes inappropriately. [TS]

  Why do you if you find yourself as are being protected by this. [TS]

  Oh yeah all the time and in my own in my own work I am I am like the big baddie in the scenario. [TS]

  Much much more than I am the victim. Right so I I am really cautious about using anything under fair use rules. [TS]

  I do not mean to me in a minute I might have you in a minute on that. I am I am. [TS]

  Let's just say I am I am not a lawyer and I am not giving legal advice. [TS]

  But I I rely on the fair use doctrine as little as humanly possible. [TS]

  The risks of being on the end of some kind of of copyright problem are are large but on the flip side though I [TS]

  and I was just doing this today. Right. [TS]

  This happened today and this happens very often which is someone who is easy is what happens on You Tube [TS]

  but someone somewhere uploads my video to their own channel. Yeah. [TS]

  And that that happens very often and very often they upload it with ads turned on as well. [TS]

  Right so now the video that I have made is on someone else's channel and they're running ads on top of it to try [TS]

  and make money out of your creation. Yeah. [TS]

  Yes let's let's just say yes I'm not even entirely sure that that's always the explicit goal [TS]

  but that is what is happening anyway. [TS]

  People read up of the video [TS]

  and one of the things that frustrates me to no end is I this this phrase that I see all the time on the Internet which [TS]

  I think is really interesting and it is copyright not intended you know and so some someone will upload the video [TS]

  and then below in the description they will say. Copyright not intended. This video I didn't make it. [TS]

  It's by siege of Ukraine. [TS]

  Yeah and maybe if you know it's a good day there's a link to my actual channel but very very rarely there. [TS]

  Yeah I think it's especially hilarious if I find like a full feature length film uploaded somewhere you know so it's [TS]

  like I'm browsing on You Tube [TS]

  and I see like oh Lord Of The Rings Return of the king uploaded by Jock dude seventy six right. [TS]

  And in the description it says no copyright intended you know this this was made by Universal Pictures or whatever. [TS]

  Gerry the coziest broadcast copy got no intended I'm going to be very disappointed in you. [TS]

  OK I think I think that will be the title. [TS]

  And I think this is very interesting because I'm sure I'm going to take these people at their word [TS]

  and that people think that copyright is a kind of attribution system right so I'm not taking the glory for my right [TS]

  but I'm not taking the glory for making return of the King I just want to be clear I didn't make this last seven years [TS]

  they went right for minute there I thought you were awesome. Yeah I think that's amazing Why don't you make more now. [TS]

  Yeah and so I think that that's how people think of copyright you know. [TS]

  Whereas from from my perspective [TS]

  and of course from Studio perspectives the power of copyright is really the control over distribution. Yes right. [TS]

  That is really what it is. [TS]

  And so this is where like I was saying before that that monopoly power from the government comes from. [TS]

  I am able to limit the distribution of my videos to You Tube [TS]

  and I do that because You Tube has the best kind of agreement with advertising [TS]

  and so that is how I'm able to make money. [TS]

  Yeah that's how I make my living and that's that's where the power of copyright comes from. [TS]

  So what do you do when you have a copyright untended do you know he said. [TS]

  Yeah I mean the thing is I do I do flag it right I will flag those for copyright you know and [TS]

  and it's such it's a complicated issue because I used to try to much more than I do now I still do sometimes [TS]

  but I used to try to contact people and and give them the benefit of the doubt [TS]

  and say you know hey I'm not sure if you're aware but I you know I would like you to take down the video. [TS]

  But it's reached a point where it is just not practically possible. [TS]

  Trying to keep track of who have I contacted How long has it been since I've heard from them. [TS]

  Yeah and so this is where I do feel kind of like a jerk especially when it's obvious that it's on I'm like not a scam E. [TS]

  Channel right it's on just some some person's channel about about some high school kid [TS]

  or someone who you know is a fan of something. Yeah I do feel kind of bad about that but the problem is that this. [TS]

  The reason I do take those things down is because they do represent a kind of threat to my ability to make a living [TS]

  and it's that I have had videos of mine that are not on my channel that do go viral. Yeah right and that is just awful. [TS]

  So I've had I've had videos of mine that were uploaded to other places that literally ended up getting hundreds of [TS]

  thousands of views on another location. [TS]

  That's why at this point if I come across it like I will flag those things you know especially if it's clearly a [TS]

  commercial operation [TS]

  but I just I do I do feel kind of like a jerk doing that even though I think that is the purpose of of copyright is to [TS]

  limit the distribution so that content creators can earn a living. [TS]

  It's a difficult situation especially for people who make sort of the kind of education. [TS]

  No content that people like you [TS]

  and you in the night because it's people who say well you should just be glad that one hundred thousand people of Santa [TS]

  video you're all about spreading the knowledge and the love in the nation. [TS]

  But you know you've got it you've got eight and pay the rent and and those things [TS]

  and I think people people forget that and you know it's hard because like you say you are not looking [TS]

  but I don't know if people realize that what do you what do you do under that circumstance that comes up with you. [TS]

  Well I sort of sometimes I will flag it was that to be honest with the procedure that you put you through to complain [TS]

  about someone re uploading a video machine or something or that is actually quite laborious [TS]

  and I don't know one's really fancy filling out all the forms and I do know something you don't know. Now OK. [TS]

  This is something we should discuss later is this is this too much minutia for the for the average listener that maybe [TS]

  I'll ask about that later so I can just I can say very quickly. [TS]

  I use a program called Text expander which allows you to fill out forms like that automatically every time so I have it [TS]

  all plugged in so I just have to hit a keyboard command and it basically fills up a whole form for me automatically. [TS]

  You are like the most efficient man in the universe. [TS]

  Well when you start [TS]

  when you start having to do a lot of these things you find a way to do it faster than we should do that as a podcast [TS]

  one day. Great efficiencies because you're talking about other ones in the past that you did that I completely love. [TS]

  We must make a note of that but anyway I imagine a lot to be the most awesome or the most boring episode ever. [TS]

  But you know I will see we'll see we'll get to that [TS]

  but you know you generally flag it only I will flag it sometimes sometimes I mean I I mean I have to do the two [TS]

  thousand videos cos my channels and it does get to the point. [TS]

  It's difficult but oh we'll all go to you know I sometimes someone to lean on me [TS]

  and say Now you know where they've done this in and out [TS]

  but I do have issues with fair use as well because the other thing that people seem to be quite keen on these days [TS]

  along with copyright intended is to say I'm using this [TS]

  and a face as though those words themselves are just the magic incantation that makes it very use Exactly [TS]

  and also you know a word like fair means it must be fair. [TS]

  Right I think I think that is something people are really exploiting in an unfair way. [TS]

  And it's [TS]

  and again I don't think you know I think fair use has become the new way of saying well I couldn't possibly have made [TS]

  this myself or I couldn't have shot this myself or obtained this myself [TS]

  and therefore once I reach the point where I can't do it myself it is fair for me to take it from someone else. [TS]

  Yeah and I don't think that's what faith means [TS]

  or the other thing I think people started doing is because you know some of us are in a position where we've managed to. [TS]

  Create a piece of footage or something that is nice [TS]

  or exceptional people think Gee I'd love to use that in one of my videos that way that will help make me successful. [TS]

  I will build my video around that and that cold right. [TS]

  Say yes you know this is obviously the case for you know people like gaston and myself to an extent. [TS]

  When you start using high speed cameras. [TS]

  Oh yeah yeah some of the some of the stuff that you guys have made I mean that it. [TS]

  That's some serious equipment to get those shots. They don't they don't just happen. [TS]

  Yeah but then some I will just take this and say well I'm using this under fair use [TS]

  when clearly that is using it because you know they think it's in their interest to have something exceptional in their [TS]

  video and you know this is I think people don't really know what to do with face these days [TS]

  and you know I'm not a lawyer either [TS]

  and I certainly don't want to get into an argument with the sort of people who hide behind face because they tend to be. [TS]

  Quite difficult people from experience [TS]

  but I do think these things pick is being a bit silly you know I mean I have used things on the ice [TS]

  and I think there's a way to do it and why not. And some people are in the way not. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I just I just pulled up the sort of the guidelines for fair use in the United States [TS]

  and then there's a bunch of things and again not a lawyer [TS]

  but the ones that I think are the most relevant here are is you know whether [TS]

  or not the person who's using your material is doing it commercially. [TS]

  That's and that's an immediate count against it possibly being fair use right. [TS]

  Are you running as a new channel using somebody else's stuff. [TS]

  Well guess what you're going to have a way harder time proving that that's fair use [TS]

  but the one that I think is really relevant is and again this is for the U.S. [TS]

  Courts is whether or not the other person's use affects the market for the original material [TS]

  and so I think that this example is like what happens to me where sometimes I see organizations use a section of my [TS]

  video. [TS]

  Yeah right and maybe a couple you know seconds of my video would be totally fair use [TS]

  but if you take that core explanation part. And play that. [TS]

  That's an argument for saying like you have just appropriated the reason people would watch the thing in the first [TS]

  place. Yeah. Or they're like with some of those slow motion videos that are amazing. Right. [TS]

  The big video that you made is built around that slow motion part. [TS]

  And so if somebody else uses that that sounds a whole lot like it doesn't matter if it's only a two second clip if it's [TS]

  the heart of what the original thing was that strongly counts against A possibly being fair use. [TS]

  So I you know I try to when I use stuff I try really hard to keep those guidelines in mind and if I can. [TS]

  A copyright video I have a single note you know the opening note from Star Wars. [TS]

  Yeah and I looked through the guidelines and it's like OK I am using it for commercial which counts against me [TS]

  but there is there is no there is no court in the United States who is ever going to argue that somebody watch my [TS]

  copyright video and didn't feel the need to watch Star Wars because the opening note was in it. [TS]

  Yeah I have not replaced or stolen the value from Star Wars by using that opening notes [TS]

  but even still I I thought even very long and hard about even doing that [TS]

  but it's ultimately with the fair use stuff what makes it so hard is that there isn't a solid guide line that you can [TS]

  use the ultimate arbiter as is a court you know a court of law and that's just uncomfortable for everybody. [TS]

  Yeah and you know and who wants to get lawyers involved in Maine. [TS]

  Yeah it's pretty easy stealing stuff from you because you know we haven't got much money [TS]

  and we don't we can't be employing lawyers I don't often see them stealing like you know a game seven of the World [TS]

  Series and putting that up when you choose face. [TS]

  Right I know they going to get it in the neck but they felt so pinch it from people here then I went to take them on. [TS]

  Yeah I was trying it hated vs frustrating. [TS]

  Yeah I was going to say very quickly that the worst I will not name specific names for various reasons [TS]

  but the worst worst I have found at stealing my stuff are newspapers by far. [TS]

  So the online editions of newspapers Yeah are they are the the most shameless takers of You Tube contents I cannot [TS]

  believe how shameless they are on a simple and I've got a nice little set of tricks they used to like every time. [TS]

  Yeah like the whole I love one of my favorites is that I will take the video I like put it into their own player so [TS]

  they can commercially exploited it put it on their new record you know. [TS]

  As you know within that twenty four hours that you contact them [TS]

  and say What the heck you doing you know at the very least could you embed the huge my You Tube video so that at least [TS]

  you know if you want to showcase the video you don't need to put on your play [TS]

  and I'll be not sorry sorry it was a mix up. [TS]

  They always rise and excite the make up every time every time it happened dozens of times. [TS]

  Yeah it was a mix that we meant to put the embed in bed if you try to [TS]

  and we'll replace it now so they take out their version in the play and replace it with your You Tube version. [TS]

  But of course by then it's no longer on the front page of the of the Web site [TS]

  and the all the impressions of happened and all the traffic is gone away. [TS]

  Yeah that's exactly it because they know the first twenty four hours are the ones that are the valuable ones [TS]

  and so they'll just delay and delay until they can see the traffic has dropped off [TS]

  and you know then then they'll replace it if you're lucky. [TS]

  But newspapers are by far the worst [TS]

  and my guests here's my guess about this is that I think they're under just tremendous financial constraints because of [TS]

  changing technology. Yeah but they also don't have the same kind of oversight that a T.V. News organization would have. [TS]

  Yeah right I think a T.V. [TS]

  News organization would have enough infrastructure to say listen guys let's not risk this you know where where in the [TS]

  video industry world this is a bigger problem [TS]

  and so I think newspapers are at this interesting crux where they're just they're under a lot of pressure [TS]

  and maybe don't have the same kind of oversight as as video news would [TS]

  but anyway I just I was I to complain about the news if I possibly can and I use papers. [TS]

  You know they're not exactly they're not earning my love with another religion another who is a who we both know who I [TS]

  won't name but he said that the table as well and he he studied to get I think more hard about it [TS]

  and then writing to the papers and say yeah OK buddy thanks replacing it [TS]

  but that's not good enough you didn't pay me to say what you just did and he's had some success with that [TS]

  and I've started to say OK so I think that I kind of maybe they're realizing that it's. [TS]

  Scandalous and the lies and anyway I'm not going to you know used to work for a tabloid newspaper. [TS]

  You know I'm I'm not going to sit here with you and you know we will eventually will talk about you [TS]

  and then we can let it all pour out. [TS]

  It's all for out there very naughty very naughty very naughty a better [TS]

  and they are very sparing in giving of you know links [TS]

  or credit as well you know I had one I had one video that was all I could say were videos it was the one where I went [TS]

  into the Bank of England gold bullion vote and obviously that was that's not and I think you see every day right. [TS]

  A few people wanted to use and I had one newspaper contact me and say can we use the video in an article [TS]

  and we want to put it and I'm player and I said oh no can you please use the cheap so that people watch [TS]

  and you know they going to watch the same video anyway and I was like OK I will think about it [TS]

  and because that's just let me know I specifically told him they couldn't put it in airplane conversations that I [TS]

  couldn't go back on that and instead I think they must've taken ten fifteen screen grabs [TS]

  and just made a huge picture gallery and all the pictures from it's like you know goodness sake. So naughty. Anyway. [TS]

  OK Well while we've been complaining about all of these these things we might never be stuck right. [TS]

  However if anyone is still survive listening through claims of You Tubers right first world You Tuber problem. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I would just go I would go back to [TS]

  when one of the little notes that I wanted to make is the advantage of allowing copyright to expire [TS]

  and you know you talked about. Why should people be able to build on on George Lucas is stuff. [TS]

  Yeah you know as an example [TS]

  and I think what are some examples of this which is very interesting if you can retell store. [TS]

  He's in much more interesting ways [TS]

  and I have I have two examples that I really like the first one is might be slightly embarrassing I'm going to read it [TS]

  anyway. Is the I think it's one nine hundred ninety six movie called clueless soaring right down. Yeah. [TS]

  Which is one of those movies when I first saw it and I thought this was just the dumbest movie ever made [TS]

  and for anyone who hasn't seen it I highly recommend that you do watch it [TS]

  but it is on the surface it is basically a movie about the dumbest California Valley Girls you've ever seen. [TS]

  Yeah and the exploits of their life. [TS]

  However later on I came to find out that the clue this is a remake of Jane Austen's Emma right that it is the exact [TS]

  plot of Emma just moved to this different setting. [TS]

  And once you know that I think the movie Clueless becomes kind of brilliant. [TS]

  I think if they would say Snoopy varies [TS]

  and that's like Oh I wasn't willing to admit I like this film until I realized it was based on something. [TS]

  Oh well they must. Yes I will totally admit that that that does sound terrible. [TS]

  I've often heard it said they were sort of Jane Austen's stuff was considered reasonably not that highbrow [TS]

  and it's time as well. Yeah I've heard that kind of stuff and I've heard some his fantasies. [TS]

  Yeah and I don't I don't know either but I've heard similar things [TS]

  and of course you know thing things gain respect through time you know just because it's old it's sort of awesome Don't [TS]

  get me started on Shakespeare. [TS]

  But so I so this is an example where I think clueless is the kind of movie that could be made right because the [TS]

  copyright on Emma had expired. [TS]

  Yeah and you can do interesting things with that story by moving it to a different setting [TS]

  and I think that there are there is cultural value. In being able to do new things with iconic characters. [TS]

  Right that I think at a certain point very successful films and very successful books. [TS]

  They become part of the culture [TS]

  and that is also why I'm kind of very much for some eventual limit on copyright that so that more can be done with [TS]

  these things in the future. [TS]

  A second example that I have which I only recently discovered [TS]

  and I had one of these binge watching Sessions is the B.B.C.'s remake of Sherlock the Sherlock Holmes series. [TS]

  How could I have seen them so I think actually as we are talking the season three finale is airing on the B.B.C. [TS]

  Right now which I'm going to. Yeah but I basically only discovered these about a month ago. [TS]

  Yeah and I watched the first one and and I was like I can't stop watching how right I have to keep watching it [TS]

  and I've just been watch the first two and a half seasons available at that point and it was great [TS]

  and I think that this is another example of like. [TS]

  Sherlock Holmes is so much more than the original author ever intended him to be. [TS]

  Right he's like he is such a part of the of like the Anglosphere culture at this point that I think that it is fair [TS]

  enough to say that that his character belongs in the public domain [TS]

  and other people can do things with this kind of story I mean surely among other the best example because I know [TS]

  there's lots of clever nuanced notes to the kind in the books but is this not just a case again [TS]

  and I should work on the best example but I'll run with that. Is this not. [TS]

  Case of someone you know has some clever story tellers and good actors [TS]

  and good directors making a brilliant piece of film something that's compelling [TS]

  but then just appropriating a famous name and brand that has worked its way into culture to help sell their product. [TS]

  I mean you could you could make as bunch of rip roaring detective films just like that you know a guy [TS]

  and his assistant that would that would be on the surface be just as good [TS]

  but less people would watch it because it hasn't got an iconic name like Sherlock and things. [TS]

  So in some ways I see what you're saying that you're building on things [TS]

  and you're building on things in culture in another way so I think that just being the being a bit lazy then making [TS]

  something good but then there are paling to our culture which doesn't like anything unless it's already famous [TS]

  and stamping that on in much the same way when you make a science documentary on the B.B.C. [TS]

  No matter what the topic is you're like what we can't do this [TS]

  and this is someone who's already famous presenting it that is stamping fame on things because their culture is so [TS]

  obsessed with fame. So I think I think that's getting off into a different argument about about fame right. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and also I think the you know there's some great some great charts about the number of sequels right that have been made [TS]

  in movies recently and this the similar kind of idea that people want to buy what they already know. Yeah. [TS]

  And my my opinion on the bad sequels thing is like I don't care how many bad sequels are made I only care about the [TS]

  good sequels because I don't have to watch the bad sequels. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and my opinion is that yeah there's a bunch of stuff that's made that people watch it because of Sherlock Holmes [TS]

  and now I have another great Sherlock Holmes example which is the Robert Downey Jr Sherlock Holmes movie which I [TS]

  watched only because it was a Sherlock. [TS]

  Home is moving you know I started to watch for that race and I had to stop after about twenty minutes. [TS]

  There's no reason I would have watched that movie if it was not a Sherlock Holmes movie. [TS]

  That's like I found it moderately enjoyable [TS]

  but they would have not gotten my money if it was not for a Sherlock Holmes name on it. [TS]

  Right because I've read the Sherlock Holmes stories like and I'm interested in this [TS]

  and so I wanted to see that interpretation which I like I know it's OK But you know I didn't watch the second one. [TS]

  But to me the B.B.C. Sherlock is the shining example of what you can do and I think that those those stories are great. [TS]

  They're made better because it's Sherlock Holmes because you can see like what changes have they made to these [TS]

  characters or what have they kept the same. You know what's different now that they've moved it into a modern setting. [TS]

  That's a fair point. [TS]

  I think it gains value from contrast with the originals that it wouldn't have if it was a standalone piece. [TS]

  Yeah and so that's why I I think it's it's great that people can do this [TS]

  and although it will it will never happen I would love it if there was you know like say the copyright limit was. [TS]

  At sixty years that when I was older I could watch somebody redo the original Star Wars movies. [TS]

  I I think that like there is room for them to be redone in an awesome way. [TS]

  But with current copyright lasting forever that will never happen you know and that will never be able to occur. [TS]

  Yeah so we just have to put up with have George Lucas himself maybe see films. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and again this is why George Lucas is always like the easy one to pick on right because he made new Star Wars movies [TS]

  and they have been generally they have been generally panned. [TS]

  And here's here's the thing right I generally pass that was a very diplomatic statement. [TS]

  But his thing is I don't hold any grudges against him [TS]

  and here's one of the other things with going back to like one allows us to make our living. [TS]

  The control over the distribution of this Star Wars comes up for a very particular reason copyright debates [TS]

  and it's it's partly because the power of the control of the distribution is what has allowed George Lucas to basically [TS]

  prevent showings of the original Star Wars movies as they first aired Yes. [TS]

  Right and this is this again as I could not be a more first world kind of problem. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but if you are a person who kind of cares about the cultural history of the world you know if you're looking at movies [TS]

  for example. Star Wars is undoubtedly a moment in that cultural history. [TS]

  Yeah but you cannot get the original versions of those Star Wars very naughty. It's very naughty of him isn't it. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and I think that's where a lot of the resentment comes from as people think you know nobody begrudges is making those [TS]

  new movies like you know I think nobody rivaled I begrudge a little bit I would say I hold no I hold no ill will in my [TS]

  heart for the making of those movies like this is the same thing that is in my mind just fall into the category of the [TS]

  bad things I don't have to watch the bad things I saw them once. I will never see them again. [TS]

  But what I you know I've been watching [TS]

  but if you see them once I'm sorry I know this isn't about style until watching the originals again likely because [TS]

  they're on telly and I love them so I watch them [TS]

  and things that happen in the originals now kept giving me flashbacks to those subsequent Precourt [TS]

  and it was tainting the originals for me because I was thinking they just they didn't exist. OK And here I go on. [TS]

  Yeah I was also not related but one of my podcasting heroes. Call John Syracuse who I adore. [TS]

  He is a huge Star Wars nerd and he has kids [TS]

  and what I love is that he is simply denying the existence of the original three movies within his household. [TS]

  Oh so fun very well timed. [TS]

  He knows that they well [TS]

  but his strategy apparently is to have his kids exist long enough without ever having seen them that they will be able [TS]

  to distinguish between the good originals and there are terrible prequels. [TS]

  Yeah because I ran across this in my students enough work where kids who saw them in similar time frames were not [TS]

  necessarily able to distinguish one from the other which is horrifying to me. Yeah but anyway we're getting derailed. [TS]

  So what I would say is that that is one of the problems is that the power of the control of distribution in this one [TS]

  particular case has has led to some cultural problems. [TS]

  Yeah and that's that is that is the reason why I picked George Lucas as an example [TS]

  and in my video is because this is such a fundamental problem it's like. [TS]

  If there were limited copyright there would be hope. [TS]

  The original format of the movies entering back into into the world [TS]

  and this is one of the reasons why Congress has extended copyright protections is because their argument is it gives [TS]

  the creators encouragement to preserve their original works for longer [TS]

  and there's some interesting data that says that's not actually the case that what happens is the original works just [TS]

  get lost over longer periods of time. [TS]

  But in this particular case with George Lucas It's also very obvious that the original work gets distorted [TS]

  and you know it is increasingly hard to try [TS]

  and find as it aired in one nine hundred seventy seven versions of the original movie. [TS]

  I personally have never seen this thing [TS]

  but I have heard that on the Internet you might be able to find somewhere a thing called. The Star Wars D. [TS]

  Specialized editions where super fans have taken the current Star Wars movies [TS]

  and tried to make them as close as possible to the original cinematic releases as they have. [TS]

  Again I would not know where to acquire such a thing because it would obviously be copyright infringement [TS]

  and it would be frowned upon as creative as a creator myself I could never condone such an action for such an [TS]

  incredibly important historical thing that I personally love you know. [TS]

  So I will I will take the high road here [TS]

  but I'm just like throwing it out there that there exists this thing called the Star Wars the specialized addition. [TS]

  I'll tell you something else. I mean obviously I'm imagining you sane people vs George Lucas film I actually have not. [TS]

  Well I highly highly recommend it's on my list of some I'll be doing what we just discussed I can't recommend highly [TS]

  enough but also for people out there who are probably like gray [TS]

  and I had spent way too much time reading Wikipedia articles reading it the story of the Zapruder film. [TS]

  Of the Kennedy assassination. Oh yeah yeah. [TS]

  Very interesting when it comes to you know copyright and ownership of material and things. [TS]

  That's a really interesting story. [TS]

  Well I'm sure we won't go into it now [TS]

  but if if if after this podcast they poured it on rates I think that's a good rate as well. [TS]

  Let me ask you a final question because obviously we've been going for the hair. [TS]

  If you were going to make another copyrighted it [TS]

  and whole remake your original one of course you would preserve the original for the archives [TS]

  but I don't know I will tell you different. [TS]

  I didn't think you'd say differently or do you think you pretty much have the same position. [TS]

  I I was thinking about that earlier today [TS]

  and I don't know that the argument that I want to be made can be made within the context of the of the kinds of videos [TS]

  I put on You Tube a coherent argument for limited copyright is hard to make because I think that it is a it is a real [TS]

  gray area of law. It requires a large amount of time and it's also a topic that there is no clearly correct answer. [TS]

  And as a as a as a little example I just want to throw into that to put that point. [TS]

  There's a thought process that I learned when I was doing physics back at university [TS]

  and it's this question of in certain situations. [TS]

  Take the problem to infinity and take the problem to zero [TS]

  and so say you know what would a world be like if we had infinite copyright if Congress just said The heck with these [TS]

  extensions we're just literally going to make it forever you know [TS]

  or we have a world where Congress says you know no copyright at all at zero. [TS]

  And when I think of those two worlds if I had to pick I'd pick the world with the infinite copyright. [TS]

  I think there would be there would be problems with that [TS]

  but I think that is preferable to a world with zero copyright protection. [TS]

  And so that that that is kind of one of the way that that gets me to this. [TS]

  I am for limited copyright protection I am not for no copyright protection. [TS]

  But I'll put a link in the blog post for this episode. [TS]

  But there is a very very interesting TED talk by a woman talking about the fashion industry [TS]

  and how in the United States at least fashion designs do not have copyright protection at all. [TS]

  So the fashion industry is a world where there is zero copyright [TS]

  and she makes a very convincing argument that this is nothing [TS]

  but beneficial to the fashion world because it encourages tremendous turnover of styles right that if one company comes [TS]

  out with a particular style of dress there's a delay in time before other companies can come out with it too simply [TS]

  because of ramping up manufacturing capabilities. [TS]

  Yeah but it means that everybody has to keep generating new things much more quickly and then this leads into my. [TS]

  It's hard to have a definitive opinion because I am convinced that the fashion industry is better off without having [TS]

  copyright protection and I think there's some very specific reasons why that's the case [TS]

  but I don't I don't think that same argument applies in other creative fields. [TS]

  So it's a very complicated very complicated issue. I think if nothing else we have shown that it is complicated. [TS]

  Now as always it has been a pleasure. All right next up yeah. [TS]

  Catch you next time we're going to forget a few things to discuss for next time already I'm making some notes is going [TS]

  to take em out. [TS]