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H.I. #56: Guns, Germs, and Steel


  look at that posh classy drinking water [TS]

  from you are partially cushions man look [TS]

  at you you look like a millionaire [TS]

  I because i'm drinking water and [TS]

  overwatch collapse yeah this is what [TS]

  millionaires do baby they drink water [TS]

  out of wine glasses in my look at me [TS]

  with my twenty percent bigger Pepsi's [TS]

  ready to get you said impatiently [TS]

  haven't even started [TS]

  it's all in your mind Brady I have [TS]

  nothing but an infinite well of patience [TS]

  for you my friend [TS]

  infinite well of patients you are quite [TS]

  patient guy I'll give you that [TS]

  yeah for you and you know I think I [TS]

  think you have more patient person than [TS]

  me in general you have to be gentle with [TS]

  me today because I have been very sick [TS]

  for the last week and a half stick with [TS]

  what someone appropriate because I think [TS]

  we're going to be talking about plagues [TS]

  and boxes later on i am very full of [TS]

  plague in boxes today this this will [TS]

  give you some ideas to the gravity of [TS]

  how sick of bein little I went to the [TS]

  doctor say this only means something [TS]

  because i know you and I know that you [TS]

  seem to have some sort of stubbornness [TS]

  about going to the doctor when you're [TS]

  sick which I don't understand its code [TS]

  being a man is it called being a man or [TS]

  is it called being dumped I go to the [TS]

  doctor when i'm sick if I think I need [TS]

  to go to the doctor I don't understand [TS]

  this reluctance to go to the doctor this [TS]

  is the nub there you set up when I need [TS]

  to go to the doctor when does one you [TS]

  need to go to the doctor this is the [TS]

  million-dollar question [TS]

  ok what is your level then for you need [TS]

  to go to the doctor [TS]

  close to death okay see that seems [TS]

  cutting it too close braiding I think [TS]

  ninety-nine percent of the time when you [TS]

  go to the doctor they just say our go [TS]

  away and come back in a week if you're [TS]

  still sick and I and that happens to me [TS]

  all the time and then I go away for a [TS]

  weekend in a week or so I get better and [TS]

  so I never go back so i I just I hate [TS]

  going to the doctor because I know that [TS]

  it's going to tell me [TS]

  ik yeah you're a bit sick but come back [TS]

  in awake [TS]

  it drives me crazy yeah yeah I [TS]

  understand that because most of the time [TS]

  you just have the some sort of normal [TS]

  called like if I have what feels like a [TS]

  normal cold i won't go to the doctor [TS]

  but if it's much beyond normal cold or [TS]

  if it lasts longer than it seems like a [TS]

  normal cold should then you go to the dr [TS]

  abdullah great you don't go to the [TS]

  doctor if you wake up and you go with my [TS]

  little stiffly today let me see what the [TS]

  doc has to say about this [TS]

  yeah you don't need to have your marker [TS]

  be near death [TS]

  yeah to to be the when do you need to go [TS]

  to the doctor phase [TS]

  how's this though I went to the GPA and [TS]

  I went into that went into the room and [TS]

  then she said okay what's wrong and I've [TS]

  had a few other little things you know [TS]

  ongoing things that I thought this is a [TS]

  chance to bring them up things i don't i [TS]

  had gone to the doctor but I thought oh [TS]

  you know kill a few birds with one stone [TS]

  here right so i sat down and said I've [TS]

  got a few things for you actually [TS]

  and she said well you've got less than [TS]

  10 minutes and I'm already running like [TS]

  how's that for care what if I was dying [TS]

  this is how triage works pretty [TS]

  depending on what you go in there with [TS]

  they might decide that you need to be [TS]

  escalated up to the next level [TS]

  yeah yeah you need you need to go to the [TS]

  doctor you never know what it is you [TS]

  know it might be you might think you [TS]

  just have a regular flu but then you go [TS]

  to the doctor and you find out oh you [TS]

  might have you might have died from [TS]

  meningitis [TS]

  that's the kind of scaremongering that [TS]

  makes people go to the doctor too much [TS]

  i'm not scare mongering this isn't [TS]

  scaremongering and this is also this is [TS]

  for the for the triage thing right you [TS]

  have a quick meeting with the doctor [TS]

  they're just trying to determine always [TS]

  something more serious or less serious [TS]

  and and it should be eighty percent of [TS]

  the time that it's something less [TS]

  seriously than ninety percent the time [TS]

  that it's something less serious it [TS]

  would be quite remarkable [TS]

  if everyone who went into the doctor had [TS]

  the most serious thing that they [TS]

  possibly could [TS]

  the doctor is a filter and the vast [TS]

  majority of the time it should come back [TS]

  saying it's not a big deal [TS]

  you're fine but you're there to catch [TS]

  the freak occurrences that could kill [TS]

  you [TS]

  yeah this is good advice people follow [TS]

  cries and vast variety is it is this is [TS]

  this is from someone who works in a [TS]

  school I can and yeah had students died [TS]

  of meningitis like you think it's the [TS]

  flu and is not spam dead so go to the [TS]

  doctor [TS]

  don't be a brady i really wanted [TS]

  antibiotics because basically I was told [TS]

  to get antibiotics go to the doctor and [TS]

  get antibiotics so that was my whole and [TS]

  they hate giving you they hate [TS]

  prescribing [TS]

  maybe you doing everything in a way [TS]

  that's infuriating so you don't want to [TS]

  go to the doctor but when you do you're [TS]

  the guy who's going to believe the [TS]

  doctor into giving you antibiotics you [TS]

  only take antibiotics at the dr things [TS]

  that you should you don't believe the [TS]

  doctor into this I basically said if you [TS]

  don't give me antibiotics today I'm [TS]

  probably gonna get divorced and she [TS]

  laughed and said I've never heard that [TS]

  one before and then prescribe [TS]

  antibiotics i don't i don't want them i [TS]

  don't care i was just trying to grease [TS]

  the windows are you taking the [TS]

  antibiotics then I am so you so you [TS]

  don't even think you need them and [TS]

  you're taking man and I i do your part [TS]

  of the problem [TS]

  no I don't need them i do need them have [TS]

  been sick for too long and and if you [TS]

  think the doctor would have given them [TS]

  to you if you hadn't turned on the Brady [TS]

  charm i would not say she was charmed by [TS]

  me [TS]

  I think she gave them cuz she thought I [TS]

  needed them you know she looked at me [TS]

  and lived in my throat and said I was [TS]

  sick and I told her you know I told a [TS]

  story but another habit of my know that [TS]

  will probably infuriate you is whenever [TS]

  I go to the doctor and get prescribed [TS]

  whatever I'm is needed i almost feel [TS]

  like that's job done and I've [TS]

  accomplished what needed to be [TS]

  accomplished and I quite often don't [TS]

  like the actual process of been taking [TS]

  all the medicine and doing all the [TS]

  things the doctor said it's almost like [TS]

  walking out of the dr being told yes [TS]

  you're sick and this is what you've got [TS]

  to do almost feels like the Cure like [TS]

  okay that's that's dealt with and the [TS]

  actual sitting there and taking all [TS]

  those pills for a week and a half his [TS]

  idea of a grind and i usually get the [TS]

  airport but I can also understand a [TS]

  little bit that feeling because it's [TS]

  been like if you bring your car into the [TS]

  auto shop when you pick up your car like [TS]

  a great everything's done but they don't [TS]

  prescribe you a course of activity to do [TS]

  with your car over the course of two [TS]

  weeks exactly i can understand that [TS]

  feeling like haven't I been serviced so [TS]

  that I have now fixed isn't this what is [TS]

  this exactly but that's not what it is [TS]

  you have to take the pills and the [TS]

  numbers of people who follow through on [TS]

  taking their antibiotics course through [TS]

  to the end is always appallingly low is [TS]

  a this is a common problem is a non [TS]

  compliance rates for medication taking [TS]

  our justice down dingley hi it's a [TS]

  miracle they get anything done with [TS]

  these these trucks but you're going to [TS]

  finish your course of antibiotics Brady [TS]

  should do i need to pester you about it [TS]

  I'll Phoenician I'm glad it wasn't [TS]

  anything major [TS]

  and you found out that it doesn't keep [TS]

  you up at night wondering if you're [TS]

  going to die of a exotic disease [TS]

  thank you thank you for caring i do care [TS]

  ready you do whenever I'm sick you do [TS]

  get a little bit [TS]

  mumsy that is slanderous that is [TS]

  slanderous sir you're very mothering [TS]

  when i'm sick [TS]

  well I don't want to put any strain on [TS]

  you that would cause you to be ill for [TS]

  further amount of time my wife is [TS]

  currently at home from work from exactly [TS]

  this thing of overstraining herself at [TS]

  work when she wasn't fully well and [TS]

  going in and I'm like no no you need to [TS]

  stay home until you're better [TS]

  and so that's how I feel about you break [TS]

  no no we don't have to do the podcast [TS]

  until you're better [TS]

  the people can wait but you are of [TS]

  course you like to say hard as nails and [TS]

  you just want to soldier on through no [TS]

  matter what have we got any follow-up [TS]

  from the last episode I came it was it [TS]

  the last episode was it a good episode i [TS]

  remember i think what we talked about [TS]

  was whatever we talked about on the [TS]

  previous buy gas [TS]

  okay it looks like we have no follow-up [TS]

  of substance then now what we have to [TS]

  dive into is you apparently have another [TS]

  breathtaking installment of corporate [TS]

  compensation corner [TS]

  well i'm going to blame me for this week [TS]

  we have delayed corporate a compensation [TS]

  corner for so long now that I've built [TS]

  up so much possible material a half that [TS]

  I don't really know where the staff I [TS]

  can't imagine why anyone would ever [TS]

  delay delay corporate compensation [TS]

  corner and I we should we should laugh [TS]

  put out flash podcast whenever what [TS]

  happens when an instant like we go [TS]

  straight to press I'll tell you the one [TS]

  I'm like I'm looking at four bullet [TS]

  points here i'll tell you the one that [TS]

  that's drawing my attention straightaway [TS]

  corporate compensation corner massage [TS]

  edition [TS]

  ok was awhile ago now but we had a [TS]

  little holiday down in down Devon way [TS]

  I'm staying a nice place and it was one [TS]

  of these come and we went to one of [TS]

  these [TS]

  you know beauties treatments part I [TS]

  places that we quite like I into as a [TS]

  couple and you have nice food and then [TS]

  they you know you see in a jacuzzi and [TS]

  stuff out there and then you have to get [TS]

  your numbers on your eyes breeding [TS]

  cucumbers and that kind of thing and we [TS]

  went we went for the we went for this [TS]

  sort of new agey type massage thing and [TS]

  it was really funny because one of those [TS]

  things where they like you know you do a [TS]

  questionnaire and they decide what your [TS]

  energies air and what all these sort of [TS]

  things and and it's like it seems like a [TS]

  load of rubbish what I filled out the [TS]

  questionnaire and then i sat down with [TS]

  my message one minute she said okay I [TS]

  see your questionnaire and that's what I [TS]

  know about you and she and I was like [TS]

  she was psychic she said all these [TS]

  things about me like about how I work [TS]

  and how i live and I'm not [TS]

  yeah that is like very specific things [TS]

  or just you know broadly applicable to [TS]

  your work in the chair a lot of the time [TS]

  to find yourself sitting down [TS]

  who ya sitting down a lot she wasn't [TS]

  claiming to be a psychic that it's not [TS]

  like she was saying you know you're [TS]

  gonna be a total stranger and stuff I [TS]

  didn't say she was claiming it but you [TS]

  seem impressed and I'm imagining that [TS]

  she was just saying things that were [TS]

  broadly applicable to the group of [TS]

  people who are likely to get a massage [TS]

  so i went in and i thought it was gonna [TS]

  be a little bit ever dad message because [TS]

  it was all about like pouring oil on [TS]

  your forward and all this sort of stuff [TS]

  done well I just want to be you know I [TS]

  just want my back rub my legs rubbed and [TS]

  make all those knots car away from [TS]

  sitting at my computer all day but it [TS]

  was good it was one where they like [TS]

  portal this oil all over your face and [TS]

  your hair and stuff like that i actually [TS]

  quite enjoyed it was quite nice and [TS]

  about two or three minutes before the [TS]

  end of the message the fire alarm went [TS]

  off [TS]

  no haha and we had to be evacuated and [TS]

  it was freezing freezing cold and I'm [TS]

  covered in oil oil over mine is dripping [TS]

  in my eyes and all through my hair just [TS]

  like it's like honey coming off me just [TS]

  got that big a time like a greased up [TS]

  piggy I've got out haha i've got a robot [TS]

  and we all get taken outside onto this [TS]

  freezing cold deck everyone staying in [TS]

  the place like a hundred people and my [TS]

  hairs all over the place because she's [TS]

  been like [TS]

  rubbing my hair so standing up and oily [TS]

  and they do a roll call and calling out [TS]

  their names and there's made a freak in [TS]

  the corner [TS]

  Erin Brady here so here's what we come [TS]

  to corporate compensation corner the [TS]

  therapist then says basically well there [TS]

  was only like one or two minutes left [TS]

  anyway there's no point putting you back [TS]

  on the table to then say okay we're done [TS]

  but we feel really bad about it and [TS]

  we'll we'll line you up with that the [TS]

  manager talked to the manager you know [TS]

  whoever was in charge we got taken off [TS]

  to this side room I still got oil all [TS]

  over myself [TS]

  the woman says we're really sorry but [TS]

  then the genius of it was it was all put [TS]

  back on me she says what can we do to [TS]

  make it up to you what do you want are [TS]

  now that's dad's ball that's ridiculous [TS]

  now and what I do what ya what would you [TS]

  said what you said the battle for hearts [TS]

  and minds is already lost at this moment [TS]

  right of put it back on you because the [TS]

  social the social pressure there is for [TS]

  you to be a reasonable understanding [TS]

  person right if they want to win the [TS]

  hearts and minds and have you be like oh [TS]

  man you can't believe how great this [TS]

  place was in the customer service was [TS]

  amazing [TS]

  it's their job to step up and to [TS]

  schedule + schedule you another hole [TS]

  replacement one that the company just [TS]

  eat the cost or whatever like that's [TS]

  what they should do if they want to be [TS]

  like oh where where a great place to [TS]

  come for vacation but when they say oh [TS]

  you know how can we make this up to you [TS]

  and just I just I feel deflated even [TS]

  thinking about this question in theory [TS]

  is it's just you know what you know what [TS]

  you can't is just over i just don't even [TS]

  care you know keep your money and enjoy [TS]

  your low review like that's that's [TS]

  that's how we'll make it up to each [TS]

  other here alright I didn't think of [TS]

  going in reviewing them the thing with [TS]

  the massage right is is like even if [TS]

  they only have two minutes left the [TS]

  whole the whole point of something like [TS]

  that is that you're coming out of it a a [TS]

  relaxed and new Brady right at the end [TS]

  of this experience [TS]

  ya can't imagine if let's say let's say [TS]

  for the rest of their massages that [TS]

  you you get the person has an hour-long [TS]

  massage and everything was perfectly [TS]

  fine and in the last second of the [TS]

  massage you bang a symbol above their [TS]

  head rights really loud [TS]

  oh but we only ruined one second of your [TS]

  experiences like that's not how it works [TS]

  right [TS]

  it's not the actual amount of time it's [TS]

  if the disruption relative to the [TS]

  expectation exactly this episode of [TS]

  Hello internet is brought to you by [TS]

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  i wanted to talk a little bit about a [TS]

  book called guns germs [TS]

  steel it's a book that i think is an [TS]

  interesting book but there's also a lot [TS]

  of arguments that take place around the [TS]

  book and in some ways almost think the [TS]

  meta argument about it is more [TS]

  interesting than the actual book itself [TS]

  what's the spoiler situation here and [TS]

  it's just one of these things where [TS]

  people should pause the podcast and read [TS]

  the whole book now or because sometimes [TS]

  people do that are we gonna be like [TS]

  spoiler tastic is this is just one of [TS]

  those cases or do you think people [TS]

  should keep listening [TS]

  well my thought is this is a bit like a [TS]

  world war two situation [TS]

  Brian there be spoilers i don't think [TS]

  there can really be spoilers for most [TS]

  nonfiction situation ya like it which is [TS]

  essentially kind of a history book is [TS]

  and if we get to the second topic we [TS]

  will discuss the possibility of spoilers [TS]

  in a nonfiction situation but it but in [TS]

  general I think a book that is about a [TS]

  topic can't be like us a spoiler [TS]

  yeah okay so what is if someone wants to [TS]

  stop and go read Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

  now you can pause the podcast if you so [TS]

  like is a long book and it is a I find [TS]

  at times overly detailed book but you [TS]

  know you go you go for man if you really [TS]

  want to but we'll talk about it we'll [TS]

  talk about what's in the book now so I [TS]

  think if you haven't read it you can [TS]

  still enjoy the conversation because we [TS]

  will try to sum it up as we go along a [TS]

  little bit i agree with that i create [TS]

  this shouldn't you should not be [TS]

  spoiling where it i'm listening to an [TS]

  unabridged version and looking at the [TS]

  scroll by here it looks like i am nearly [TS]

  halfway through I'm not qualified to [TS]

  talk about as a whole but I listened to [TS]

  a pharaoh chunk of it [TS]

  so how have you been finding it reading [TS]

  this is not the harrowing experience [TS]

  that getting things done was where i [TS]

  actually went so far as to get my money [TS]

  back for this one because that was held [TS]

  that was that was how much I felt what [TS]

  my dislike for that book and the way it [TS]

  was written this has not been the case [TS]

  and I would go so far as to say I found [TS]

  it quite interesting [TS]

  mmm i think the guy reading the book is [TS]

  not the author does a very good job and [TS]

  I think some of the topics are [TS]

  interesting but I but it is not without [TS]

  criticism there [TS]

  if i have to say i have never heard [TS]

  someone say the terms hunter-gatherer [TS]

  and food production so many times in [TS]

  such a short space of time like to the [TS]

  point where I'm like say how together [TS]

  one more time say hun together one more [TS]

  time guys dare you [TS]

  yeah because it does get it does get [TS]

  very repetitive at times and it made me [TS]

  wish that maybe the author could have [TS]

  expanded his vocabulary just for the [TS]

  sake of variety because it does get very [TS]

  repetitive times I before I talk about [TS]

  the content because I think that's what [TS]

  you really want to talk about but just [TS]

  more about the actual book itself just [TS]

  to share for warn people [TS]

  it was it's very least tastic it and [TS]

  this and there always seems to be lists [TS]

  within lists like he'll say so you're [TS]

  probably wondering you know why cows eat [TS]

  grass where there are seven reasons for [TS]

  that [TS]

  let me tell you the number one number [TS]

  two number three number four number five [TS]

  Number six number seven and as I will [TS]

  talk about later in chapter 34 there are [TS]

  another nine reasons that they eat green [TS]

  grass and while i will go into that [TS]

  later let me tell you those nine reasons [TS]

  and that said these things to be lists [TS]

  breaking out of lists and there's a lot [TS]

  of a lot of that going on which I could [TS]

  see really appealing to you actually [TS]

  because you know we all know you like [TS]

  like lists and at times you do find [TS]

  yourself thinking oh my goodness I [TS]

  cannot believe I'm listening just so [TS]

  much talk about we crops flex and how [TS]

  pulses are high in protein [TS]

  don't nobody know exactly what a pulse [TS]

  is I can kind of guess but and so at [TS]

  times you have it seems like on my god [TS]

  that he's talking about the most boring [TS]

  things ever [TS]

  mhm but I think despite the [TS]

  repetitiveness in the list is actually [TS]

  quite well written it'sit's kept a real [TS]

  layman's level which i think is probably [TS]

  quite easy because it's talking about [TS]

  pretty basic stuff like you know herding [TS]

  cows and sailing to other countries [TS]

  right I can see why I [TS]

  think that would appeal to you by the [TS]

  way I know that you have criticisms of [TS]

  the writing of the books i'm not saying [TS]

  you think it's a masterpiece of [TS]

  literature but i can see why it would [TS]

  appeal to you because I mean I I joke [TS]

  around about getting things done and how [TS]

  it's like you know productivity porn and [TS]

  I think you're quite you know you love [TS]

  organization and productivity and stuff [TS]

  so getting things done with a purity and [TS]

  in some ways the whole thing about this [TS]

  book i called up [TS]

  I call that productivity mega porn [TS]

  because this isn't just about people [TS]

  being productive this is about like the [TS]

  productivity and organization of like [TS]

  the whole planet so i can just say you [TS]

  guys are making this is an amazing I [TS]

  can't believe it they're not just [TS]

  talking about organizing a workday [TS]

  they're talking about how whole [TS]

  populations are organized and why the [TS]

  world's so for you i can see why this is [TS]

  like right in the sweet spot em yeah but [TS]

  next time you tell me you think it's [TS]

  funny that I can sit and watch a game of [TS]

  darts I will pull out this block and say [TS]

  let me talk to you a little bit about [TS]

  flax and pulses i think that is grossly [TS]

  unfair comparison everyone's interest [TS]

  everyone's interested in different [TS]

  things so anyway so so as a as a read it [TS]

  is it out as as a book it is sometimes a [TS]

  book what you think [TS]

  well this is like this is pretty amazing [TS]

  and pretty tedious and then but i think [TS]

  it is well written [TS]

  despite the repetitiveness and i think [TS]

  is very it's very approachable land and [TS]

  it's very well argued it's it's actually [TS]

  like a conversation with you [TS]

  we're even when sometimes you think [TS]

  you're wrong because your arguments are [TS]

  so well thought out and I've been sort [TS]

  of pre-planned like they're very they're [TS]

  very well fortress and your your [TS]

  arguments are very with like you have [TS]

  answers to most questions and like even [TS]

  when I think you're wrong you're very [TS]

  hard to argue because you're so well [TS]

  prepared for the battle and that's what [TS]

  this book is like even though i think [TS]

  some of the things that are wrong it is [TS]

  very strategically well done and and it [TS]

  becomes hard to to say exactly why you [TS]

  think it's wrong [TS]

  yeah he's a bit overly prepared that [TS]

  point they get I think it's an [TS]

  interesting book by no means bye [TS]

  no means do I think that everything in [TS]

  it is right but he definitely comes to [TS]

  the table with a bunch of stuff and I [TS]

  think it's later in the book but the [TS]

  section that always stuck with me was [TS]

  there is a point at which he goes [TS]

  through every example of how human [TS]

  writing has ever come into existence [TS]

  like every society that has ever come up [TS]

  with writing and I remember the first [TS]

  time I read the book like I believe you [TS]

  man like i have just giving up [TS]

  okay like I believe your theory about [TS]

  human writing please don't make me read [TS]

  one more like I've read enough about [TS]

  knots vs cuneiform vs writing verses you [TS]

  know when does it come up on its own [TS]

  when is it distributed through other [TS]

  people like I just let me just move on [TS]

  to the next thing I think that's [TS]

  probably an advantage of an audio book [TS]

  isn't it because sometimes when it's [TS]

  there on the page and you can see what's [TS]

  coming and you see what's gone before [TS]

  those sections can seem quite tedious [TS]

  but when you're listening and you sort [TS]

  of forgotten what he's already said and [TS]

  you don't know what he's going to say [TS]

  next [TS]

  you can be in the middle of one of those [TS]

  kind of patches of quicksand and not [TS]

  know it until it's too late [TS]

  it will stay in some ways an audiobook [TS]

  kind of spares you the the worst of that [TS]

  because you can't just live ur rather [TS]

  than see it coming [TS]

  so in closing before we talk about the [TS]

  content [TS]

  i I don't know finisher but I feel quite [TS]

  comfortable recommending it like that [TS]

  like i would say if this is something [TS]

  you're interested in [TS]

  go ahead and did win the Pulitzer Prize [TS]

  didn't as well so it's not like I'm it's [TS]

  not like we've pulled one out of left [TS]

  field here for people this is like [TS]

  reading books bit of a big deal i have [TS]

  been fascinated for years about the kind [TS]

  of meta argument that takes place on the [TS]

  internet about this book and we were [TS]

  talking on this message before a little [TS]

  bit and I said that like this is the [TS]

  book that launched a thousand arguments [TS]

  at like a thousand argument threads [TS]

  across the internet like it people just [TS]

  argue about this book all the time in a [TS]

  way that I find very interesting so [TS]

  here's here's what i would say is the [TS]

  like the thumbnail overview of the [TS]

  argument in in Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

  because germs and steel is arguably [TS]

  vastly over simplifying all of human [TS]

  society and now i am going to vastly [TS]

  over simplify the very argument itself [TS]

  the book is setting out to answer how is [TS]

  it that Europeans ended up conquering [TS]

  the whole world and Europeans ended up [TS]

  with all of the stuff that allowed them [TS]

  to conquer the whole world i like what [TS]

  why did the europeans have ships why did [TS]

  the europeans have guns [TS]

  why did they have all of this technology [TS]

  and then why were they the ones who are [TS]

  able to spread all over the world and [TS]

  like why is it that when the Europeans [TS]

  arrived in north america that they [TS]

  weren't faced with American Indians at [TS]

  the same level of technological progress [TS]

  ships didn't meet in the Atlantic where [TS]

  we're human societies had had developed [TS]

  at the same rates and it right they bump [TS]

  into each other in the middle of the [TS]

  Atlantic oh my oh my how are you how are [TS]

  you [TS]

  it doesn't that's not the way it went [TS]

  down like the guy who believes in a note [TS]

  alternative universe and there was a [TS]

  rocket to fly there and then when he [TS]

  doesn't he crashes into a rocket coming [TS]

  the other way her friends yeah that's [TS]

  that's not the way human society then [TS]

  there's nothing human society were yeah [TS]

  uh he could have just written chapter 1 [TS]

  because someone had to be first the end [TS]

  right [TS]

  what's that like that is a totally [TS]

  legitimate answer cracking it's like you [TS]

  know of course someone's going to be [TS]

  first how could someone not be first it [TS]

  would be quite remarkable if someone [TS]

  wasn't first if everybody was exactly [TS]

  the same [TS]

  yeah and i like that that would be that [TS]

  would be astounding which we can also [TS]

  then relate this the same conversation [TS]

  two space-faring civilisation is right [TS]

  maybe it's like it's like the star trek [TS]

  universe of where everybody every alien [TS]

  race is about the same level of [TS]

  technology like that is shockingly [TS]

  unlikely that someone has to be way [TS]

  ahead of somebody else [TS]

  yeah so what he lays out in the book is [TS]

  he's he is talking about the starting [TS]

  point of like 10,000 BC [TS]

  when roughly speaking humans had spread [TS]

  to everywhere they were going to be on [TS]

  the face of the earth and they were all [TS]

  at roughly the same level of technology [TS]

  of basic stone tools and then says okay [TS]

  his argument is fundamentally that when [TS]

  you have people everywhere some [TS]

  environments are more beneficial to [TS]

  human thriving than others [TS]

  huh some places are just going to be [TS]

  better for people to live [TS]

  I mean I have this guy jared diamond and [TS]

  i have two nicknames for him [TS]

  mr. hindsight and mr. obvious and I [TS]

  think that first argument is he wearing [TS]

  his mr. obvious hat [TS]

  mmm yeah well see like when I read this [TS]

  book it's gonna sound dumb but like you [TS]

  know I went through history classes in [TS]

  high school and it was remarkable to me [TS]

  that there was no overarching [TS]

  description of things like history class [TS]

  was like this big long list of stuff [TS]

  that happened and one of the things that [TS]

  you can't help but notice is like man [TS]

  the UK is just dominating in this [TS]

  history game they have empires right [TS]

  it's like the UK and then is the Dutch [TS]

  and the French like this this little [TS]

  cluster of places has taken over [TS]

  absolutely everywhere and I'm not even [TS]

  really sure that when I was younger like [TS]

  it occurred to me to wonder like why was [TS]

  this the case like I don't even know [TS]

  some ways when you just grow up going [TS]

  through history class or you grow up [TS]

  learning about anything you you [TS]

  sometimes don't think to ask questions [TS]

  at all it's just like oh of course [TS]

  Europe took over the world because [TS]

  that's what they taught me in school and [TS]

  like it never even occurred to me to [TS]

  think that something else could have [TS]

  been possible but Jared Diamond [TS]

  supposedly the alternate question why [TS]

  isn't it that Africa conquered the new [TS]

  world and brought European slaves to the [TS]

  new world [TS]

  okay yeah that's an interesting question [TS]

  like what why didn't that occur or for [TS]

  example the thing that my video was [TS]

  focusing on which was the question that [TS]

  really struck me which an obvious [TS]

  question never asked which is why didn't [TS]

  they [TS]

  Europeans get sick from Native American [TS]

  diseases if the Native Americans got [TS]

  sick from European diseases i get just [TS]

  never occurred to me as a kid to ask [TS]

  that because you're always told the [TS]

  story in the context of like and the [TS]

  Europeans came and the Native Americans [TS]

  got sick from their diseases like and we [TS]

  keep moving along and you just don't [TS]

  think to to ask these questions [TS]

  that's why the book kind of struck me [TS]

  when I was a bit younger was like I [TS]

  didn't think to ask these questions but [TS]

  so the bot the bottom line of that [TS]

  argument is just some places are more [TS]

  beneficial to human societies and that [TS]

  once you start down the road of having [TS]

  more food and settling down and building [TS]

  cities that this process is a [TS]

  self-sustaining self-feeding process [TS]

  that your city's get bigger you have a [TS]

  higher population density you can then [TS]

  develop more technology if you have [TS]

  citizens who are free from the burden of [TS]

  producing food and this just spirals up [TS]

  and spirals up and spirals up and so [TS]

  that a relatively even just a relatively [TS]

  minor advantage in the beginning can end [TS]

  up becoming something that makes the [TS]

  difference of like two centuries worth [TS]

  of technological process progress by the [TS]

  time societies meet you think that's [TS]

  fair from what you've read so far [TS]

  yeah i tell you i think yeah basically [TS]

  saying little bit of luck it'll be a [TS]

  fairy dust and lucky star and you win [TS]

  the whole game [TS]

  the example I often like to use is it's [TS]

  as though the earth is a very unfairly [TS]

  designed board game and your starting [TS]

  position gives you more or less [TS]

  advantage and like Australia is the [TS]

  worst place in the world to start and [TS]

  Eurasia is probably the best place in [TS]

  the world to start [TS]

  that's what books trying to say yeah [TS]

  well I mean you just set in five few [TS]

  sentences but anyway yeah it wouldn't be [TS]

  a book otherwise i guess it wouldn't it [TS]

  wouldn't be a book otherwise but this is [TS]

  why I think like that [TS]

  statement ends up becoming like this [TS]

  remarkably controversial thing like [TS]

  these huge arguments over Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel for what I agree with you as I [TS]

  think in many ways to me seems in [TS]

  retrospect like a fairly obvious kind of [TS]

  argument that just never occurred to me [TS]

  when I was younger like of course some [TS]

  places are better for humans to thrive [TS]

  and others like that like that's why [TS]

  europeans ended up taking over because [TS]

  Europe was easy i get i guess one of the [TS]

  things that comes across in the book [TS]

  that I hadn't thought about quite so [TS]

  much was if if you told me that the star [TS]

  like you know that the the dice are [TS]

  loaded all the board was ring I think [TS]

  okay um you know this obviously whether [TS]

  it's obvious you know obviously the [TS]

  climate you know what your climate is [TS]

  like is pretty important as someone who [TS]

  lives in England and sees all these [TS]

  rolling green hills 24 days 365 days a [TS]

  year whatever and and then when i'm in [TS]

  Australia is a barren desert right I [TS]

  look I look into KY k well you've got a [TS]

  head start here [TS]

  the thing I guess I hadn't thought about [TS]

  quite so much was how loaded dice were [TS]

  when it comes to animals that the [TS]

  strongest thing I've seen in the book so [TS]

  far as he say the best natural resource [TS]

  advantage that the generations had was [TS]

  they got lucky with animals and everyone [TS]

  else got unlucky with animals right [TS]

  that to me is probably one of the key [TS]

  features of the book is is exactly [TS]

  happens you can see how others but [TS]

  there's nice places everywhere in the [TS]

  world I think it's not like Europe is [TS]

  just uniformly perfect for me and [TS]

  everyone's got gold and everyone's got [TS]

  oil and some people have diamonds and [TS]

  some people have this some people have [TS]

  that but he's basically saying animals [TS]

  and plants is where it was at and in [TS]

  Europe got lucky [TS]

  yeah he runs through the things that [TS]

  make plant species and animal species [TS]

  susceptible to human use in order to be [TS]

  domesticated animals have to have a [TS]

  bunch of characteristics which when and [TS]

  this is where your lists and lists you [TS]

  know begins because he could he goes [TS]

  through all of this stuff with plants [TS]

  and animals again I think it's very [TS]

  interesting to go through all those [TS]

  details it's far too much to go into for [TS]

  this podcast but I mean just just [TS]

  basically like you don't don't really [TS]

  think about it but for domesticated [TS]

  animals you need a couple things like [TS]

  broadly speaking you need animals that [TS]

  are big enough to be useful and so like [TS]

  if you domesticate chinchillas they're [TS]

  not going to be pulling plows for you in [TS]

  a farm right you need a big animal you [TS]

  need animals that are big but also [TS]

  animals that are not unpredictable or [TS]

  violence which is what is the big [TS]

  problem for Africa like Africa has times [TS]

  of big animals all of them are horrible [TS]

  to work with and I like hippos her [TS]

  terrific leave violent way more [TS]

  dangerous than you think they are or he [TS]

  runs through all the examples about like [TS]

  zebras vs horses they look the same but [TS]

  zebras are bastards right and horses are [TS]

  great to work with because they have a [TS]

  bunch of inbuilt characteristics I [TS]

  haven't I haven't got to this yet gray [TS]

  because the point you're making [TS]

  obviously you've got all these nightmare [TS]

  animals in places like Africa or a [TS]

  paucity of animals in other places and [TS]

  then Europe's call you know you do so [TS]

  cows and shape and are you treating [TS]

  animals so I get the point [TS]

  does he get messy later on in the book [TS]

  explain why Africa is full of badass [TS]

  animals and Europe's full of ghosts our [TS]

  dummies or is that just luck at one [TS]

  point in the book he talks about and I [TS]

  think this is really interesting is that [TS]

  if you go back lots of continents used [TS]

  to actually have many more large docile [TS]

  animals and there's some really just [TS]

  funny examples from australia with like [TS]

  these mega marsupials yea big large [TS]

  mammals [TS]

  yeah and North America had the exact [TS]

  same thing i like big large mammals but [TS]

  that when basically because humans [TS]

  developed their hunting skills like as [TS]

  they went along humans arrived in north [TS]

  america [TS]

  and australia and the rest of the world [TS]

  like with really great hunting skills [TS]

  already right so we're able to out hunt [TS]

  a lot of the local population and so [TS]

  like when when they arrived there is [TS]

  like okay great animals that have never [TS]

  ever seen humans that have no reason to [TS]

  avoid humans collide with a sudden [TS]

  immigration of into North America [TS]

  hunters with big pointy Spears which is [TS]

  why africa so full of badass animals [TS]

  because bright ideas and assets could [TS]

  see could survive we're trying big [TS]

  started here [TS]

  yes and so he goes through that there's [TS]

  basically around 10,000 BC there's a [TS]

  huge number of megafauna extinctions [TS]

  everywhere that humans have just arrived [TS]

  for the with the exclusion of right [TS]

  eurasia and africa because humans were [TS]

  already there and animals have gotten [TS]

  used to them to some extent yeah so that [TS]

  that's the idea of arguments like it's [TS]

  not even entirely luck [TS]

  it's it's that humans caused this [TS]

  situation to be the case but even if so [TS]

  here's one of these things like people [TS]

  love to argue with all the details in [TS]

  Guns Germs and Steel like did humans [TS]

  cause the megafauna extinction or did [TS]

  humans not cause the megaphone [TS]

  extinction to me that's not even [TS]

  relevant like let's let's say that that [TS]

  part of the argument turns out to be [TS]

  false like people find out Omega Pharma [TS]

  extinction didn't happen because of [TS]

  humans [TS]

  yeah okay well it doesn't matter because [TS]

  you should still expect that somewhere [TS]

  on earth [TS]

  they're going to happen to be more [TS]

  plants and animals that are useful to [TS]

  humans than somewhere else [TS]

  how could how could it be otherwise if [TS]

  you have a sum like a semi-random [TS]

  distribution of useful animals across [TS]

  the world [TS]

  yeah but when that applies to this whole [TS]

  book crime in this whole book is based [TS]

  on digging down into something that you [TS]

  probably don't need to dig down into [TS]

  anymore but he does for the intellectual [TS]

  exercise over so you can't just say it's [TS]

  like saying the British Empire was great [TS]

  because they had booked boats why did I [TS]

  have good boats are modern because i had [TS]

  good word for example why did they have [TS]

  good wood because they had a good [TS]

  climber why do they have a good climate [TS]

  and I will stop there [TS]

  well now look at what point do you stop [TS]

  why you got a good climate are because [TS]

  you further north wires further north [TS]

  but at some point [TS]

  at what point do you stop asking what [TS]

  it's like a little kid that just has why [TS]

  to every single Indian tell them that's [TS]

  what this book is like this was his [TS]

  attitude to history is like it's like [TS]

  the Europeans you know dominated the [TS]

  world why because they invaded the other [TS]

  countries [TS]

  why because they went because I wanted [TS]

  to and I wanted more land and wealth why [TS]

  when they got there why do they why [TS]

  what'd you just keep asking why and if [TS]

  he keeps answering while the time [TS]

  eventually he's going to come unstuck [TS]

  isn't it right eventually going to come [TS]

  to a point that has to just be an [TS]

  assumption about the world yeah right [TS]

  which is we assume that there are [TS]

  animals some of which are more or less [TS]

  useful to humans like well like this is [TS]

  a ground to start assumption and then we [TS]

  can also assume that the distribution of [TS]

  these things is not going to be equal it [TS]

  would be shockingly unlikely for it to [TS]

  be equal and so that means some place [TS]

  has to be better for humans than some [TS]

  other place like noticed by definition [TS]

  and still do you always have to come to [TS]

  some kind of fundamental little moment [TS]

  of it [TS]

  I mean going through a bit of the book [TS]

  I've encountered I think sometimes it's [TS]

  guilty of simplifying things that I [TS]

  think are very very complicated and [TS]

  other times I think it's guilty of [TS]

  complicating things that I think are far [TS]

  more simple i agree but as someone who [TS]

  knows has read the whole book for a star [TS]

  and also has followed some of the [TS]

  arguments around em what asked what are [TS]

  the big bones of contention not the [TS]

  minutiae like you know I disagree that [TS]

  that was how we eat was domesticated but [TS]

  whatever one of the big controversial [TS]

  topics here one of the one of the big [TS]

  things here is where I need to like show [TS]

  my hand a little bit about some some of [TS]

  my thoughts the way were you Brady you [TS]

  want me to look at let me let people [TS]

  know what I think about a movie before [TS]

  we start talking about it yeah so again [TS]

  i agree with you there are many faults [TS]

  with the book and the reason we're [TS]

  talking about it now is because i made [TS]

  this America box video recently because [TS]

  i took a a section of that of Guns Germs [TS]

  and Steel the section about why didn't [TS]

  the Europeans get sick from Native [TS]

  American diseases and I made a little [TS]

  video about it because I think that's an [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  art and also this is I have a very [TS]

  limited repertoire of questions to ask [TS]

  people at dinner parties to try to get [TS]

  interesting conversations going and this [TS]

  is one of these little questions that i [TS]

  like to bring up and I find almost [TS]

  universally that the person i'm sitting [TS]

  across from has the same reaction that [TS]

  idea of-of oh you know I never thought [TS]

  about that why didn't the Europeans get [TS]

  sick so I took that little section and I [TS]

  made the video about it and its people [TS]

  have been sending me all these things [TS]

  about like oh it's a real shame that you [TS]

  didn't know about the criticisms of Guns [TS]

  Germs and Steel before you made this [TS]

  video but the thing is i had read all of [TS]

  those criticisms there is on read it [TS]

  like a series of very interesting [TS]

  articles where someone goes through the [TS]

  book chapter by chapter i can point out [TS]

  all of what they view as like the [TS]

  contradictions or the things that [TS]

  diamond says that are clear that the [TS]

  person says are unclear and it goes [TS]

  through it step by step by step by step [TS]

  and i had read all of those things and i [TS]

  also agree with most of the criticisms [TS]

  look like I'm not going to argue with a [TS]

  professional historian when they say [TS]

  like oh x historical event occurred and [TS]

  jared diamond like skimmed over it like [TS]

  help i'll take them at their word for [TS]

  that like your professional historian I [TS]

  have no reason to disagree with you but [TS]

  the thing that I find interesting and [TS]

  valuable in Guns Germs and Steel that i [TS]

  almost never see the critics argue [TS]

  against is the theory that the book [TS]

  presents the Guns Germs and Steel to me [TS]

  gives a very simple but very basic [TS]

  theory of history it's a theory that [TS]

  only operates on very long time scales [TS]

  and over continent-sized human divisions [TS]

  but it is still nonetheless a theory [TS]

  because i think it it makes if not a [TS]

  testable prediction it it makes a a [TS]

  question that [TS]

  you can ask about the world where you [TS]

  can say look if we were to rewind the [TS]

  clock and play history again what would [TS]

  you expect would happen and the Guns [TS]

  Germs and Steel answer is that because [TS]

  you're Asia the whole of Eurasia is more [TS]

  susceptible to human technological [TS]

  flourishing let's say you should expect [TS]

  eighty percent of the time that the [TS]

  first to colonial technology that [TS]

  happens in your asia right and maybe you [TS]

  know ten percent of the time it happens [TS]

  in Africa and then like five percent of [TS]

  the hop time it happens in north america [TS]

  and like one percent of the time it [TS]

  happens in Australia but not not that it [TS]

  could never happen but it is just [TS]

  extraordinary unlikely and so that to me [TS]

  is the interesting thing is this theory [TS]

  of history and so in many ways like I [TS]

  can i agree with tons of the criticism [TS]

  about the particulars in the book and [TS]

  tons of the the details that jared [TS]

  diamond gets wrong because jared diamond [TS]

  is not a professional historian he is [TS]

  archived should look it up before we [TS]

  started using the college just gonna [TS]

  blurt expert at one point wasn't using [TS]

  to build yeah he's he's worked in papua [TS]

  new guinea and yeah he's cataloging [TS]

  birds f for the thing it's that personal [TS]

  criticism that irritates me about Jared [TS]

  Diamond it seems to just totally loved [TS]

  Papa New Guinea like out of all [TS]

  proportion [TS]

  yes to what you would expect for any any [TS]

  impartial out of ivory is a very [TS]

  important place in this book [TS]

  yeah is it and it irritates me I did [TS]

  highlighted in the beginning of the book [TS]

  even goes for like a little tangent [TS]

  about how like let me explain to you how [TS]

  papua new guineans are more intelligent [TS]

  than average human being is like oh come [TS]

  on man like one of the fundamental [TS]

  theses of your book is that human [TS]

  intelligence is not different everywhere [TS]

  but you're still going to take a little [TS]

  a little side moment about how Papa New [TS]

  Guinea is like an exception to the rule [TS]

  okay whatever yeah but so that that to [TS]

  me is is the value of this book and like [TS]

  I think that is very interesting but the [TS]

  this then trips in historians into an [TS]

  idea that like you cannot say geography [TS]

  is destiny like historians are very very [TS]

  very strongly against this idea for [TS]

  reasons that I i find difficult to [TS]

  understand and every time I get into an [TS]

  argument or icy arguments that take [TS]

  place over the book what usually happens [TS]

  is just just as so many of these things [TS]

  like different sides are arguing [TS]

  different things like I want to have a [TS]

  conversation about what is the current [TS]

  state of the theory of history like has [TS]

  much progress been made about the theory [TS]

  of history but then historian wants to [TS]

  argue with me about why was it Spain who [TS]

  was the first to Mesoamerica and like [TS]

  and why did spain lose their lead to the [TS]

  united kingdom and my view is always ok [TS]

  but that's too small like you're talking [TS]

  with we want to talk about like [TS]

  continent levels here not not particular [TS]

  cut like this is not meant to tell you [TS]

  why a particular country came about [TS]

  it's only here to give you an estimation [TS]

  of what is the likelihood that people on [TS]

  a particular continent will be the ones [TS]

  to colonize the world that that's my [TS]

  view of this book [TS]

  you know I just can't help thinking and [TS]

  I thought the social time as well I've [TS]

  been listening to the book and I think [TS]

  even more now listening to you talk like [TS]

  that [TS]

  how is this different from two guys in [TS]

  the bar talking about sports like it it [TS]

  sounds like two guys arguing over y1 [TS]

  football team is better than the other [TS]

  if we play the super bowl again with my [TS]

  team win this time did it all come down [TS]

  to that one play and mistake or was that [TS]

  team always destined to win because they [TS]

  had these players and it sounds like it [TS]

  sounds like sport like and if you want [TS]

  to rake over and and great over the [TS]

  ashes of history and talk about why did [TS]

  these people win and why those people [TS]

  invade that [TS]

  I know you can use this argument about [TS]

  how we learn lessons for the future but [TS]

  i don't think there's a lot to be [TS]

  learned for the future about this kind [TS]

  of stuff anymore i think we've moved on [TS]

  from it just seems like it seems that [TS]

  arguing about sport and I don't have a [TS]

  problem with that by the way because i [TS]

  really love arguing about sport so i [TS]

  finally found that history people will [TS]

  sit there and argue over what was [TS]

  spanish that went to Mesoamerica and [TS]

  have that sort of thing [TS]

  here's me going to try to reach and make [TS]

  a sports metaphor or just click you just [TS]

  correct me gently if I'm wrong here [TS]

  well i will talk about sports and a book [TS]

  that i haven't read the whole thing to [TS]

  know about which is Moneyball yes I so [TS]

  my understanding is that money ball is [TS]

  the description of how statistics was [TS]

  first used with baseball [TS]

  yeah i'm not mistaken yes for selecting [TS]

  the teams and thinking about the players [TS]

  not as individual people but as machines [TS]

  with particular batting averages in [TS]

  particular situation right and so [TS]

  Moneyball was about being able to put [TS]

  together an effective team in a way that [TS]

  was surprising to existing coaches yeah [TS]

  and in some way like i always feel the [TS]

  argument with historians it is a bit [TS]

  like this where it's almost like this is [TS]

  so overblown because he hasn't done the [TS]

  same thing but jared diamond is a bit [TS]

  like the money ball four continents [TS]

  right he's looking at the stats and he's [TS]

  like your ages and amazing continent it [TS]

  doesn't mean you're asia is going to win [TS]

  every time I guess like a 20 points and [TS]

  it gets 5 animal points and I get right [TS]

  but you can still score it and like I [TS]

  can i can very easily imagine an [TS]

  alternate universe where we are instead [TS]

  living in a world where the Aborigines [TS]

  got lucky right and they and they were [TS]

  the first colonial technology and they [TS]

  took over the whole world [TS]

  yeah anything that well they had some [TS]

  Einstein character that just came out of [TS]

  nowhere and write that they had [TS]

  tremendous luck or actually what i think [TS]

  is a great counter example is I mean man [TS]

  if you look at if you look at the [TS]

  numbers for the black death like what we [TS]

  think of as the plague this plague that [TS]

  struck europe in the 1300 the Black [TS]

  Death [TS]

  this downing I guess the worst plague [TS]

  the the estimates are at a minimum [TS]

  thirty percent at a maximum sixty [TS]

  percent of the population died in Europe [TS]

  in the 1300 let's just say it was 50 [TS]

  percentage for the choice this [TS]

  conversation and it's amazing to me that [TS]

  Europe came back from that like that's a [TS]

  hell of a setback to have half your [TS]

  population died and i can imagine a [TS]

  version of the world where it's like [TS]

  okay let's take the black death but [TS]

  let's increase the virality ten percent [TS]

  and the lethality ten percent and like [TS]

  that like a plague like that is [TS]

  something that's a random event and it [TS]

  is not hard to imagine just by chance [TS]

  there's an event that just knocks the [TS]

  destin continent way back way back in [TS]

  the same way that random events happen [TS]

  in sports I like some guy twist his [TS]

  ankle on the stairs walking into the [TS]

  sports arena like you can just have bad [TS]

  luck but so there could very easily be [TS]

  an alternate universe version of america [TS]

  or alternate universe version of the [TS]

  world where the Aborigines took over the [TS]

  world and they're trying to write a [TS]

  history book going like man it's really [TS]

  quite interesting that like the [TS]

  Aborigines to go over the world when [TS]

  Australia is terrible the thing that but [TS]

  the thing I suspect that is in that [TS]

  alternate world [TS]

  jared diamond would write up would write [TS]

  a book in which seemed inevitable that [TS]

  Australia Aborigines will have taken [TS]

  over the world like I think when you're [TS]

  using hindsight you can engineer almost [TS]

  anything [TS]

  yeah i think in that world it would it [TS]

  would also seemed inevitable the hot the [TS]

  hindsight the hind side thing is a real [TS]

  problem right [TS]

  this is this is always the issue of [TS]

  talking about stuff that happened in the [TS]

  past [TS]

  yeah but I would almost feel like you'd [TS]

  be much more willing to try to come to a [TS]

  conclusion like Aborigines must just be [TS]

  smarter because they came ok overcame [TS]

  like tremendous tremendous terrible [TS]

  continent disadvantage right where is [TS]

  one of the fundamental points that Jared [TS]

  I was trying to make a Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel is look everybody is about the [TS]

  same intelligence or close enough to [TS]

  like it doesn't matter right and if you [TS]

  rewind the clock and you take all of the [TS]

  Africans and you put them in north [TS]

  america and you take all the North [TS]

  America [TS]

  can you put them in Europe and you take [TS]

  all the Orientals and you put them in [TS]

  Africa like you should end up with the [TS]

  same probabilities anyway because it's [TS]

  the continent that is affecting the [TS]

  outcome it's not the people like the [TS]

  people aren't any different and and I [TS]

  totally back him on that end but it does [TS]

  mean that you can have situations where [TS]

  just the unexpected occurs because I [TS]

  don't think he is he is arguing but I [TS]

  see people like arguing against this [TS]

  version in their minds of conduct germs [TS]

  and steel that he is saying it is [TS]

  inevitable that some civilization in [TS]

  Eurasia was the one that took over the [TS]

  world [TS]

  I don't think he makes that argument I [TS]

  think he just talked about it was the [TS]

  most likely one and we're living in the [TS]

  most likely universe but it could have [TS]

  happened in a different way [TS]

  it's just extremely unlikely like Europe [TS]

  would have had to have the the Black [TS]

  Death be more lethal or happen at a much [TS]

  more unfortunate point in their history [TS]

  like if the black to happen in the [TS]

  fifteen hundreds the paper that argue [TS]

  against her who don't like this [TS]

  geography theory because obviously the [TS]

  start of the book he makes a really [TS]

  really big point about all humans at the [TS]

  same black you know one races and [TS]

  smarter than the others etc etc [TS]

  yeah people who argue against his [TS]

  geography theory to put it really simply [TS]

  do they say no in fact it is the people [TS]

  who were different or what do they say [TS]

  the real reason is like what's their [TS]

  alternative theory to the geography [TS]

  theory [TS]

  surely that I come out and say Europeans [TS]

  are naturally smarter all or do they say [TS]

  that I don't know they don't write the [TS]

  stories are not arguing against that but [TS]

  this is this is where i find it the most [TS]

  interesting and I i am trying to make [TS]

  this as clear as they can in this [TS]

  podcast because i was talking about a [TS]

  thing is easier than trying to write it [TS]

  out when you're just arguing with [TS]

  someone on the internet i would really [TS]

  like in the reddit for someone to who [TS]

  thinks like a historian who thinks they [TS]

  can answer this question that Brady is [TS]

  asking that is my question as well which [TS]

  is [TS]

  don't argue against the particulars [TS]

  about events the that Jared Diamond [TS]

  mentions in Guns Germs and Steel I want [TS]

  a coherent alternate theory of history [TS]

  that like that's that's what i am [TS]

  looking for [TS]

  that's the argument that i want to have [TS]

  like what is the alternate theory of [TS]

  history and what I have seen so far and [TS]

  then maybe I have not read widely enough [TS]

  for I've been looking in the wrong [TS]

  places but on the rare occasions when I [TS]

  see people having the argument on on [TS]

  this level on the like let's not get [TS]

  down in the weeds [TS]

  let's not argue over the details because [TS]

  often they don't even matter they're not [TS]

  relevant not really interested in the [TS]

  Mesoamerican Civil War and whether or [TS]

  not that was a factor in the [TS]

  conquistadors ability to conquer the [TS]

  continent but I don't think that's [TS]

  really relevant either way on the on the [TS]

  big picture version because what i [TS]

  normally see is people either saying [TS]

  there is no theory of history that this [TS]

  whole project is fundamentally [TS]

  ridiculous that you have to take history [TS]

  as it unfolds event by event by event [TS]

  and i am very sorry I'm forgetting there [TS]

  is a technical name for this but saying [TS]

  how like you have to look at the chain [TS]

  of all things so like the example I [TS]

  often see is is saying like oh if a city [TS]

  is founded in a different location like [TS]

  that can then have a big effect on [TS]

  whether or not a country developed in a [TS]

  particular way and then like that [TS]

  affects whether or not the country is [TS]

  powerful which can affect the rest of [TS]

  the world events and my view of that is [TS]

  like listen man that's is not a theory [TS]

  that's just listing everything that has [TS]

  ever happened and that's what I see most [TS]

  of the time from professional historians [TS]

  like I don't doubt that they are right [TS]

  about the list of things but they just [TS]

  want to present a list of everything [TS]

  that has ever happened in all of human [TS]

  history and I think that that's very [TS]

  different from the notion of of a theory [TS]

  like an one of the important or [TS]

  one of the things about a theory is that [TS]

  you don't expect it to be able to [TS]

  perfectly work for absolutely everything [TS]

  like I made a bad analogy when when the [TS]

  video first came out but I really said [TS]

  like I was thinking that Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel was a bit like the general [TS]

  relativity of the history world [TS]

  I didn't mean that it's like as as big [TS]

  of encompasses as a serious general [TS]

  relativity is what I was trying to get [TS]

  out there is the idea that general [TS]

  relativity is a theory that works on the [TS]

  big-scale icon on galaxy sighs things [TS]

  but if you try to use general relativity [TS]

  to describe very small things it just [TS]

  doesn't work but that doesn't mean that [TS]

  the theory is wrong it's just applicable [TS]

  under certain circumstances sounding [TS]

  like Harry soda and now from them [TS]

  foundation series a bit a bit i like [TS]

  yeah I will I will totally grant that [TS]

  although i think that the Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel like it that theory ends in 1492 [TS]

  right is as soon as civilizations [TS]

  interact like it is all null and void [TS]

  now it is you know it's kinda over but [TS]

  that that's that's what I feel like I'm [TS]

  constantly trying to have this [TS]

  conversation with historians about what [TS]

  is your theory of history and they keep [TS]

  wanting to talk to me about the atoms [TS]

  it's like but i agree with you about the [TS]

  atoms like we're not we don't actually [TS]

  disagree but i'm just i'm asking a [TS]

  different question he could be the [TS]

  problem with your question I don't know [TS]

  if it is on up here's what could be a [TS]

  problem theory of relativity is not [TS]

  going to change because of something and [TS]

  Adam does is it like you know atoms [TS]

  atoms are atoms and the theory of [TS]

  relativity zyzz unbreakable you know [TS]

  it's a big deal and it's it's the rose [TS]

  and everything has to follow those rules [TS]

  yeah that's why was a terrible now dear [TS]

  okay well don't let me get away from it [TS]

  then I won't bring it up again [TS]

  let me ask you this about the theory of [TS]

  history that's why it was a terrible one [TS]

  for me to pick let me offer an alternate [TS]

  one which might be better which is a [TS]

  Guns Germs and Steel is like a [TS]

  geocentric version of the [TS]

  universe it may be really wrong in very [TS]

  many ways but it also to me looks like [TS]

  isn't this is starting points like [TS]

  shouldn't we be continuing to work on [TS]

  the theory of history and not [TS]

  necessarily be like I just garbage just [TS]

  throw it away [TS]

  here's what here's why maybe it is [TS]

  garbage is how susceptible is a theory [TS]

  of history to humans have helped how can [TS]

  one person break the theory because no [TS]

  one animal person can break the theory [TS]

  of relativity like if if you if you if [TS]

  you're strong reorder have an amazing [TS]

  personality or do something brilliant [TS]

  you're still not gonna change the theory [TS]

  of relativity right is the theory of [TS]

  history so I mean we cut the we're going [TS]

  straight into foundation territory here [TS]

  and i won't give spoilers away but this [TS]

  is what happens with psychohistory and [TS]

  in in foundation isn't it like can can a [TS]

  person could one person break the theory [TS]

  because so many humans live and die [TS]

  every day that if the theory of history [TS]

  is so fragile that a brilliant person a [TS]

  brilliant Aborigine inventing a boat 200 [TS]

  years early in Australia or a brilliant [TS]

  a brilliant person in North America [TS]

  cultivating a plant a thousand years [TS]

  earlier than expected could break the [TS]

  whole system then the theory of history [TS]

  probably isn't worth discussing very [TS]

  much because it's probably pretty likely [TS]

  to get broken or is the theory of [TS]

  history more robust than that it's it's [TS]

  an interesting question [TS]

  my thought is that it would be possible [TS]

  maybe not for one person but for me it [TS]

  was saying before a series of Lucky [TS]

  events to bring you the unexpected [TS]

  outcome [TS]

  well that's different of course a series [TS]

  of Lucky event you know a comet landing [TS]

  on London a few hundred years ago would [TS]

  have changed his require lap so I mean [TS]

  is a fragile or doesn't need a comet or [TS]

  a series of amazing coincidences because [TS]

  of course it that is unlikely that I [TS]

  would say it's much closer to the the [TS]

  comet side of things like that that's my [TS]

  feeling of it is that [TS]

  look it doesn't matter how many [TS]

  Einsteins in a row you get in Australia [TS]

  you're like you're limited by the [TS]

  resources of the world and the very fact [TS]

  that you're being born into Australia [TS]

  like is just limiting the ability to [TS]

  express your intelligence anyway because [TS]

  like what are you gonna do [TS]

  you're living a hunter-gatherer [TS]

  lifestyle in in this situation like it's [TS]

  going to be very hard for you to [TS]

  single-handedly developed agriculture [TS]

  and like move the rest of everybody else [TS]

  along the start of this path like it's [TS]

  just shockingly shockingly difficult [TS]

  that you have to have incentives to stay [TS]

  put that are in the world like otherwise [TS]

  you're you're going to stay as a [TS]

  hunter-gatherer society you're going to [TS]

  keep moving around because you're a [TS]

  mathematics you say like you had a local [TS]

  maximum Jared Diamond does does mention [TS]

  I forget exactly where but he mentions [TS]

  like 11 place in in Australia where that [TS]

  is like more susceptible to development [TS]

  than others but like but it took it took [TS]

  humans awhile to get there and by the [TS]

  time they got there [TS]

  Europeans had already arrived so it's [TS]

  like that game was probably a delight [TS]

  yeah i think it was a delay i think [TS]

  that's right yeah so there was a there [TS]

  was a mighty black stump that called [TS]

  people need to let me ask you this that [TS]

  shaming that a theory of history is kind [TS]

  of valid and robust and worth [TS]

  of valid and robust and worth [TS]

  coming up with that's a fun thing to do [TS]

  and it's intellectually stimulating and [TS]

  humans should do intellectually [TS]

  stimulating things but if it is created [TS]

  how is it useful is it useful to us is [TS]

  that practically useful to us until we [TS]

  reach a point where we start colonizing [TS]

  other planets or we start getting [TS]

  colonized by aliens and things like that [TS]

  like if we can if we can crack the code [TS]

  and correct the theory and we feel [TS]

  absolutely confidence right [TS]

  surely this is just useless now anyway [TS]

  or is it practically useful to have this [TS]

  information it's almost impossible for [TS]

  me to imagine a situation that it's [TS]

  useful like I think this is purely an [TS]

  intellectual exercise right which might [TS]

  be part of the reason why the fighting [TS]

  over it is just so enormous right that [TS]

  the know that old that Old Crow like the [TS]

  forget the details of its like the the [TS]

  fighting is furious when the the rewards [TS]

  are small and having this is this is [TS]

  that kind of thing I don't think there's [TS]

  an application of this [TS]

  yeah I just I get frustrated when in my [TS]

  view someone I don't even want to say [TS]

  nitpicking because that that is demoting [TS]

  the work that people have done too i [TS]

  think quite correctly criticized Guns [TS]

  Germs and Steel across many axes right [TS]

  it is undoubtable that you can go [TS]

  through a chapter-by-chapter and and say [TS]

  like oh this wasn't quite sure this [TS]

  wasn't quite right but it still seems to [TS]

  me just to be to be missing the argument [TS]

  i will just let me let me just mention [TS]

  the biggest example where this this [TS]

  comes across is like a criticism about [TS]

  whether or not diseases came from [TS]

  domesticated animals like this so this [TS]

  is this is the thing i was mentioning my [TS]

  video yeah and without a doubt there is [TS]

  a huge amount of uncertainty about the [TS]

  origin of many diseases and people can [TS]

  quite rightly point out like it's it's [TS]

  difficult to say where a lot of the [TS]

  European plagues originated from did [TS]

  they come from domesticated animals [TS]

  maybe maybe not like it seems like we [TS]

  know that the cow was a pretty bad [TS]

  animal to have around like some diseases [TS]

  came from it but did all of the plagues [TS]

  come from domesticated animals i don't [TS]

  know i'm not sure [TS]

  so you can go through in and poke holes [TS]

  in that but my view on it it with all [TS]

  the stuff is like okay but even if [TS]

  that's wrong even if it didn't come from [TS]

  domesticated animals nobody disagrees [TS]

  that you still can't have plagues if you [TS]

  don't have a big enough population like [TS]

  it doesn't even matter if that part of [TS]

  the book is wrong and so I always feel [TS]

  like focus focus on the value to be [TS]

  extracted from this like I think there [TS]

  is something very interesting in this [TS]

  book but i also think that it is just [TS]

  infuriating too many historians in a way [TS]

  that I find interesting and i have to [TS]

  confess I have to confess that I did it [TS]

  shouldn't have done it Brady but I did [TS]

  kind of like intentionally poke the [TS]

  historians a bit in in my video because [TS]

  i knew i knew who they were going to be [TS]

  some people watching the America box [TS]

  video who were like slowly having their [TS]

  blood boil as they as they realize like [TS]

  what this video is about I could just [TS]

  like imagine this person like the [TS]

  simmering is getting like hotter and [TS]

  hotter and hotter as they're watching [TS]

  the video he's going through Guns Germs [TS]

  and Steel I can't believe it [TS]

  which is why i like I could not help [TS]

  myself in the end of that video in the [TS]

  audible add going this is the history [TS]

  book to rule his tree books because you [TS]

  love the idea of someone just losing it [TS]

  at their computer screen like i can't [TS]

  believe that like not only has he done [TS]

  this all day but he's recommending this [TS]

  above all is treat books there is a [TS]

  perverse pleasure to be gained from that [TS]

  this is the joy of trolling this is the [TS]

  joy of trolling as the word is supposed [TS]

  to be used like I knew that someone was [TS]

  going to be wound up by that and it's [TS]

  like I can definitely see that some [TS]

  people just popped at that which is why [TS]

  I had to put that line in there [TS]

  even I'm not even sure I believe it the [TS]

  only thing that would the only thing [TS]

  that could have potentially been a [TS]

  little bit funnier was if you [TS]

  recommended like a book that was the [TS]

  exact opposite that made the exact [TS]

  opposite argument to what your video is [TS]

  just about yeah and then that he hasn't [TS]

  even read that book happiness is the [TS]

  exact opposite that [TS]

  you could have made some heads explode [TS]

  doing that to you but maybe that's good [TS]

  that's to advance maybe that's advanced [TS]

  rolling no no let's get on my I might do [TS]

  it for future book after keep that in [TS]

  mind I have to keep that in mind the [TS]

  thing that has come through from the [TS]

  book and from your video more than [TS]

  anything to me is that certainly [TS]

  diamonds argument is that the key to [TS]

  success is intensity is is bunching [TS]

  things together for various reasons one [TS]

  is it makes you hard as nails when [TS]

  you're around lots of people because you [TS]

  get sick and you get better when you get [TS]

  immune who and it consolidates a lot of [TS]

  ideas and technology and intellectual [TS]

  progression and I mean this is this is [TS]

  something we still do today this is why [TS]

  we have universities this is why we have [TS]

  technology parks this is why like this [TS]

  is why we do lots of things intensely [TS]

  yeah and and basically what diamond then [TS]

  does he tries to then go down another [TS]

  level and say so why did the intensity [TS]

  happen in Europe and and then he comes [TS]

  to the conclusion that it's because it [TS]

  was easy to eight basically the weather [TS]

  was good yeah easy food made people [TS]

  bunch together and when people bunch [TS]

  together that tends to be best for [TS]

  people [TS]

  yeah and it's not even just easy food [TS]

  it's also just important to note that [TS]

  the part of the argument is also ease of [TS]

  food production because one of the [TS]

  things is that like there were large [TS]

  cities in Mesoamerica but they were [TS]

  still largely agrarian cities like even [TS]

  though they had huge populations those [TS]

  populations were largely involved in [TS]

  food production and whereas the [TS]

  differences in the European cities [TS]

  because that you have draft animals [TS]

  which allows you to start booting up [TS]

  other technology you have large [TS]

  populations that are not involved in [TS]

  food production like you start getting [TS]

  this whole extra layer of people who can [TS]

  do other things and so you just need a [TS]

  time on your hands as well to think what [TS]

  we're gonna do today let's invent some [TS]

  stuff and then go to conquer the world [TS]

  yeah exactly you know you think about [TS]

  the kind of the golden age of science [TS]

  and it's like it's no accident that a [TS]

  number of people like Lord Kelvin who [TS]

  made lots of contributions to science [TS]

  like they were all men of leisure [TS]

  thankfully were all like really rich [TS]

  people who had time on their hands and [TS]

  they existed at the right time when you [TS]

  could do tabletop science it's like yeah [TS]

  if you need tons of just spare to meet [TS]

  you can't be working at the coal mine [TS]

  every day and then also be figuring out [TS]

  great things about sounds like you need [TS]

  time to be able to do this and that's a [TS]

  certain kind of leisure that is provided [TS]

  by efficiency in food production as a [TS]

  slight side that side recommendation I [TS]

  put it on my website but a book that i [TS]

  really recommend to go along with guns [TS]

  germs and steel is called triumph of the [TS]

  city which I think much more than [TS]

  diamonds focuses on this idea that just [TS]

  let you're saying that like cities are a [TS]

  very interesting [TS]

  meta invention of humans that they have [TS]

  this exact intensifying effect that [TS]

  there are these really interesting [TS]

  economic effects that happen in cities [TS]

  that city's specialize in these ways [TS]

  where you end up with cities that have [TS]

  financed specialties or fashion [TS]

  specialties or automotive that [TS]

  specialties and that this is a a very [TS]

  interesting way that city's help [TS]

  progress technology along faster than [TS]

  you might otherwise expect if you just [TS]

  had people all over the place we have [TS]

  intensity definitely matters [TS]

  yeah huh are you feeling do with most of [TS]

  the things you want to do with oh yeah [TS]

  yeah I'm just you know i have like a [TS]

  bazillion notes on this kind of thing [TS]

  that I always do but I i'm genuinely [TS]

  like I really want to see the feedback [TS]

  on this episode that i am i'm curious to [TS]

  see what people say i'm curious to hear [TS]

  about alternate versions of the theory [TS]

  of history [TS]

  you really like when people gone right [TS]

  war and peace in a reddit comment i [TS]

  right 400,000 lines about why they think [TS]

  the world evolved the way it did you [TS]

  gonna sit there and read that you don't [TS]

  even reply to my emails [TS]

  no I don't reply to your emails [TS]

  here's the thing with the super-long [TS]

  read the comments it depends right you [TS]

  think you can get a sense sometimes like [TS]

  always this is just a lunatic person or [TS]

  is it a person who's just not able to [TS]

  explain themselves very well this is how [TS]

  stuff on the internet goes but I am [TS]

  curious to see what people have to say [TS]

  about this like I i think it is the very [TS]

  interesting book it's a very interesting [TS]

  book that that causes an argument about [TS]

  it [TS]

  those are those are my final thoughts [TS]

  really do anything else you want to add [TS]

  did you consider contacting jared [TS]

  diamond and see what you thought of the [TS]

  video now I didn't occur to me do you [TS]

  think i should have to be curious to see [TS]

  what you thought [TS]

  10 would you like to know either you [TS]

  don't care i would be surprised if he [TS]

  didn't like it because it's reiteration [TS]

  of his theory [TS]

  yeah that's true I guess I i I'd be [TS]

  shocked if you like all your videos hit [TS]

  man maybe he said like your theory but [TS]

  the animation was it shorty [TS]

  yeah I wish minute physics done it this [TS]

  episode of Hello internet is brought to [TS]

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  domain name registrars look like garbage [TS]

  and they feel really scared me but hover [TS]

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  off your first purchase by going to [TS]

  hover dot-com and using the code [TS]

  bullseye at checkout [TS]

  thanks to hover for supporting the show [TS]

  something I cannot believe we haven't [TS]

  spoken about yet em and I don't know if [TS]

  you know the results em the New Zealand [TS]

  flag referendum [TS]

  oh yeah so this sort of happened around [TS]

  the time I I disappeared from twitter [TS]

  for a while [TS]

  mm and I think I was off Twitter long [TS]

  enough that whatever the thing was die [TS]

  down and so I actually don't know the [TS]

  results [TS]

  how well would you like to be informed [TS]

  you know why don't you inform me if you [TS]

  have a you have a link i have a link our [TS]

  Center than just a second before i send [TS]

  it to just to remind people listening [TS]

  there were five they're supposed to be [TS]

  four but there were five candidates that [TS]

  all went head-to-head in New Zealand [TS]

  right and whichever one of these winds [TS]

  now goes off to later this year the [TS]

  superbowl where it goes against the [TS]

  existing user and flag so this is not [TS]

  yet a new New Zealand flag [TS]

  what this is is the decider of who is [TS]

  going to be the contender right to go up [TS]

  against the Old Faithful great so we had [TS]

  five it was supposed to be four but as [TS]

  we all know red peak not included at [TS]

  last minute right because New Zealand [TS]

  and now to the world that they will [TS]

  negotiate with terrorists space again [TS]

  that's what they said [TS]

  so we had read bake we had the the [TS]

  psychedelic spirally kaoru design that [TS]

  gray favors we had a pretty lame attempt [TS]

  at a silver fern right which was the one [TS]

  which was the closest to what I think it [TS]

  should have been so that's kind of my [TS]

  favorite one even though I admit it [TS]

  wasn't that great but which was all the [TS]

  worst because it fell into the uncanny [TS]

  valley of what the black and silver fern [TS]

  should look like [TS]

  close but not there and so way worse in [TS]

  my mind and then we had bizarrely these [TS]

  two other flags that were sort of a [TS]

  hybrid of a phone and the existing New [TS]

  Zealand flag and the only difference [TS]

  between them was a very slight change to [TS]

  the cannot slight change a change to the [TS]

  color palette in the top left corner [TS]

  right so those I thought of as the [TS]

  committee design flag yeah let's have a [TS]

  fern let's have the star pattern and [TS]

  let's give people an option over the [TS]

  colors those are the committee options [TS]

  exactly so gray first of all I'm before [TS]

  I tell you that the numbers and how the [TS]

  voting went I think you need to see the [TS]

  winner [TS]

  ok so let's let's find out well actually [TS]

  everyone in the world knows except me i [TS]

  think we probably gonna get nothin up [TS]

  yeah because of my weird semi cloistered [TS]

  life huh i am not surprised [TS]

  so the winner is the committee designed [TS]

  flag with the black corner not the red [TS]

  corner so of those two that looked [TS]

  identical with the palace which one of [TS]

  those ones was the winner a black [TS]

  variant moon tell you what is [TS]

  interesting and this is the part that [TS]

  will get your juices flowing [TS]

  m and that is how the voting went ok so [TS]

  I'm going to send you another link to [TS]

  the wikipedia page which should drop you [TS]

  down to where the vote the tabulated [TS]

  folks are here it comes you've sent me [TS]

  the link of the votes broken down by [TS]

  preferences and what's interesting great [TS]

  because obviously they kept distributing [TS]

  preferences until one flag got over [TS]

  fifty percent of the vote right now as [TS]

  we did has all good flag referendum [TS]

  should and what's interesting is that [TS]

  the eventual winner which i will call [TS]

  black corner the was actually trailing [TS]

  red corner for the first two rounds and [TS]

  on the third round it was practically [TS]

  neck and neck and then black corner one [TS]

  on the final the final iteration the [TS]

  final distribution so red corner was [TS]

  leading the vote right until the end as [TS]

  the as the Preferences got distributed [TS]

  as the lower ones korra came last by the [TS]

  way as those as they got distributed [TS]

  those preferences [TS]

  it was only right at the end that that [TS]

  the black corner came and one they [TS]

  basically have the vote that we wish we [TS]

  had people we didn't we had a landslide [TS]

  but New Zealand despite choosing add [TS]

  flag had a cracking election these [TS]

  results are great these are these are a [TS]

  great example of preferential voting in [TS]

  action [TS]

  alright so we've got a couple couple [TS]

  thoughts here [TS]

  mhm the the first is I am NOT surprised [TS]

  that my favorite design the chorus pyro [TS]

  came in last [TS]

  I i'm not i'm not surprised by that I [TS]

  wouldn't have thought no that's going to [TS]

  be a massive massive winner for people i [TS]

  am surprised that the red corner flag [TS]

  got the [TS]

  his preference votes like that that was [TS]

  if this was a first-past-the-post [TS]

  election that one would have won because [TS]

  to me that one is unambiguously the [TS]

  worst and i think that one is awful and [TS]

  every time I think I said in the last [TS]

  podcast it just reminds me of like the [TS]

  the national baseball league in America [TS]

  it's just it's terrible i think it's [TS]

  absolutely terrible and so I'm almost [TS]

  appalled to see that it got 41 almost [TS]

  forty-two percent of the vote on the [TS]

  first round like that's that is quite [TS]

  surprising to me I would not have [TS]

  guessed like I'm not surprised Corey's [TS]

  last even though it was my most favorite [TS]

  one [TS]

  I can't believe that god awful one came [TS]

  very close to being the flag for the [TS]

  super bowl of flags [TS]

  I mean we'll link people to the to this [TS]

  table of fights but I mean it was really [TS]

  a two-horse race even even read peak [TS]

  with it's sort of groundswell of support [TS]

  who came a distant distant third [TS]

  yeah it was really between the two [TS]

  committee designs and my far i mean the [TS]

  percentages are at the first preference [TS]

  around it was forty percent for the [TS]

  black corner committee design 42-percent [TS]

  for the red corner committee design and [TS]

  then red peak the terrorists negotiation [TS]

  option was only at eight percent you [TS]

  know and then it was five percent and [TS]

  less than four percent after that so [TS]

  yeah it was a it was a two-horse race by [TS]

  by a huge margin by a huge margin lovely [TS]

  lovely lovely statistics and numbers [TS]

  they're terrible flags [TS]

  that's interesting that's interesting [TS]

  what we needed was the classy brilliance [TS]

  of our flags and the fantastic numbers [TS]

  of the new zealand vote then you have a [TS]

  dream flag election if we're to cat 1.4 [TS]

  million votes and it went all the way [TS]

  through to the fourth iteration though [TS]

  it would have taken us about 10 years to [TS]

  do it [TS]

  yeah that's that's why we would have [TS]

  your nephew do i get the final thing [TS]

  Brady if you were voting in the flag [TS]

  referendum would you vote for the new [TS]

  flag over the New Zealand flag if I was [TS]

  Voting I would [TS]

  my my gut says no I would stick with [TS]

  what they have but not strongly i'm [TS]

  probably 60 40 on that [TS]

  hmm i'm assuming you would change [TS]

  because you think change is crucial [TS]

  no I don't think change is crucial I [TS]

  just think that the current New Zealand [TS]

  flag is terrible [TS]

  I mean I met changes crucial in this [TS]

  case not change is crucial at all times [TS]

  after that everything of blankets David [TS]

  are you for or against yes I hardly [TS]

  think cgpgrey as mr. changes good as a [TS]

  holiday but i think this case you in [TS]

  this case you seem to be of the mind [TS]

  that take what you can get basically to [TS]

  get rid of that flag [TS]

  yeah i'm always of the opinion just like [TS]

  with voting referendums i'm looking at [TS]

  you UK you can change and then you can [TS]

  change again later if you want [TS]

  right like if you--you'll never locked [TS]

  into something forever don't let the [TS]

  perfect be the enemy of the good [TS]

  oh I would definitely vote for the [TS]

  silver fern flag as its official name [TS]

  black corner over the current New [TS]

  Zealand flag [TS]

  however i'll make a prediction now that [TS]

  the new flag losses in the superbowl [TS]

  that the current New Zealand flag wins [TS]

  the head-to-head race i don't really [TS]

  know you the the temperature in New [TS]

  Zealand well enough to know to make a [TS]

  prediction about that but my organic I'm [TS]

  over there with the dipstick everyday [TS]

  Brady i'm reading the polls I'm tracking [TS]

  number [TS]

  you didn't even know what flag was 300 [TS]

  minutes i'm going to do in växjö pops [TS]

  on the street you know I want to I want [TS]

  to know what the average man what the [TS]

  average sheep thinks that this [TS]

  referendum but what do you think like if [TS]

  if if this is you know this is Vegas and [TS]

  we're putting money on the table like [TS]

  what are you what are you going to bed [TS]

  on I feel like New Zealand can be quite [TS]

  progressive sometimes I feel like [TS]

  there's a sort of country and they have [TS]

  led the way a few times in sort of [TS]

  social change so i can imagine them of [TS]

  the country's I know a bit about i can [TS]

  imagine the main country that will take [TS]

  that attitude that you have come on [TS]

  let's just change it and crack on let's [TS]

  get things change so i think i think [TS]

  it's a it's a better chance and if this [TS]

  is happening in Australia for example or [TS]

  the UK for heaven's sake [TS]

  yeah but the UK doesn't need to change [TS]

  it [TS]

  because it's great i think i think i [TS]

  might do it i think they might do it but [TS]

  I didn't but when i set out what you [TS]

  know the temperature over there [TS]

  what I mean is I I don't know how the [TS]

  black corner being the winner went down [TS]

  like i don't know if it was like [TS]

  everyone thinking well that was the best [TS]

  option now let's move on [TS]

  Lord this like still a lot of outrage I [TS]

  don't know so that could that could be [TS]

  affecting things [TS]

  yeah yeah I could be but that's that's [TS]

  my prediction we will see in what is it [TS]

  says march here the final one is in [TS]

  March Harry's have been supporting hello [TS]

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  harry's now back to the show I had you [TS]

  read a book and you had me watch a [TS]

  netflix series this is the netflix [TS]

  series cold making a murderer and I can [TS]

  i send your message saying have you [TS]

  watched it and telling you should an [TS]

  amazing that you did amazing the United [TS]

  what I told you to do i take your [TS]

  recommendations very seriously ok ok so [TS]

  so we are now doing just what we are [TS]

  going to talk about that if you haven't [TS]

  watched it yet and and intend to you [TS]

  probably want to stop stop listening [TS]

  because it is very like you know it's [TS]

  very spoiler prone this is the example [TS]

  of something that is nonfiction but then [TS]

  I think definitely you can clap classify [TS]

  as having spoilers so I think it's [TS]

  actually interesting netflix did a [TS]

  promotion where they put the first [TS]

  episode up on youtube which i think is [TS]

  interesting an interesting move i'll try [TS]

  to find that link and i'll put in the [TS]

  show notes so if you want to just watch [TS]

  the first episode you can see it for [TS]

  free on YouTube without having a netflix [TS]

  account and you can just check it out [TS]

  and see if you're interested [TS]

  you don't have to commit yourself to [TS]

  watching all 10 episodes i think i'm [TS]

  going to attend or something here [TS]

  something that's it that's a good idea [TS]

  actually because at the end of that [TS]

  first episode I imagined would make one [TS]

  quite interested in engaging with what [TS]

  might come next so it's a perfect [TS]

  example of why I don't like to know [TS]

  anything i just like to go into a cold [TS]

  because the ending of that first episode [TS]

  is quite the gut punch when you don't [TS]

  know what's coming [TS]

  yeah it was the same for me I knew [TS]

  nothing going into the spoilers coming [TS]

  up so do you want to give us the [TS]

  thumbnail overview for people who are [TS]

  continuing to listen without having [TS]

  watched it [TS]

  what is making a murderer about [TS]

  making a murderer is the story of a guy [TS]

  called Steven Avery who lives in [TS]

  wisconsin he is jailed for a rape he [TS]

  spends many many years in jail [TS]

  how many was it was like some [TS]

  ridiculousness 18 years 18 years in jail [TS]

  and then it turns out he was innocent of [TS]

  the crime [TS]

  he's released he sues the the local [TS]

  police who do not hold this man in very [TS]

  high regard and very sure a very short [TS]

  time later he is accused and charged [TS]

  with the murder of a young woman called [TS]

  Teresa hole buck and he claims he's been [TS]

  set up by the police because they're out [TS]

  to get him again the police say that's [TS]

  ridiculous and he committed the murder [TS]

  his nephew who's a young man named [TS]

  Brendan Dassey is then also coach [TS]

  charged with the murder it's claimed [TS]

  they together murdered this woman and [TS]

  the series over eight episodes basically [TS]

  first of all deals with the [TS]

  investigation and then the trial of [TS]

  these two men to find out you know [TS]

  did they or didn't they do it i think it [TS]

  would be fair to say that this film has [TS]

  been made in a very sympathetic way with [TS]

  Steven Avery the accused the the [TS]

  filmmakers certainly leave you thinking [TS]

  most of the time that boy this this [TS]

  seems like maybe this something dodgy [TS]

  going on here in this bit of a travesty [TS]

  of justice i would go so far as to say [TS]

  you're my instinct was that it was [TS]

  biased because sometimes it's so [TS]

  jaw-dropping how biased seems and how [TS]

  much he seems to have been set up that [TS]

  you that that I'm thinking this can't be [TS]

  real this they must be leaving loads of [TS]

  stuff out they have since been accused [TS]

  of leaving loads of stuff out and but [TS]

  whether that's the case on up [TS]

  I don't know yeah this is also allows [TS]

  the delay with guns in the deal [TS]

  you're always going to have to leave [TS]

  stuff out you can talk about everything [TS]

  in the world [TS]

  yeah and so even doing a 10-episode [TS]

  documentary about a single murder trial [TS]

  that guess what [TS]

  unless you are just showing everybody [TS]

  everything that happened every minute of [TS]

  every day in the actual trial you [TS]

  have to leave stuff out and after week [TS]

  after i finished watching this I did try [TS]

  to dig around a little bit and to see [TS]

  like what did the police department say [TS]

  about the things that had been left out [TS]

  in the trial and you know I i will agree [TS]

  with you that the documentary is very [TS]

  sympathetic to Steven Avery and perhaps [TS]

  perhaps to a degree that almost does a [TS]

  disservice to itself could it's a little [TS]

  you know it's very much on his side [TS]

  yeah but I did try to look into it just [TS]

  a little bit and at least from what i [TS]

  can see from the police departments [TS]

  where they were saying oh the [TS]

  documentary makers left out you know be [TS]

  used these key things i like them i [TS]

  thought i'm not impressed by that let [TS]

  none of them are like a big smoking gun [TS]

  other none of the things the police have [TS]

  said since that made you think oh well I [TS]

  find new that of course he was guilty [TS]

  but there's a few bitty things that had [TS]

  do you play exactly but nothing that [TS]

  nothing like sensational yet and [TS]

  everything that as a professional video [TS]

  maker I feel like yeah obviously you'd [TS]

  cut that like don't mention it doesn't [TS]

  have any relevant doesn't matter like it [TS]

  totally makes sense not to include every [TS]

  single piece of evidence so I like the [TS]

  police department has come up with [TS]

  nothing [TS]

  from my perspective that I find like oh [TS]

  wow it's amazing i wouldn't go so far as [TS]

  to say nothing but i would say nothing [TS]

  sensational but there are a few things [TS]

  there are a few things there are few [TS]

  things i think could probably could have [TS]

  been slaughtered in 28 hours of [TS]

  television without slowing things down [TS]

  too much but yeah but everybody always [TS]

  thinks that right like everybody wants [TS]

  their their additional thing included [TS]

  but well I'm no I think I'm quite [TS]

  partial but you are you are impartial [TS]

  really that we're bringing the [TS]

  infomercial but I did like the series I [TS]

  felt like it was a really good use of my [TS]

  time [TS]

  yeah after i really recommend it i like [TS]

  to quite a lot [TS]

  the thing is just like with cereal [TS]

  IIF I have a hard time with these real [TS]

  crime things in no small part because i [TS]

  have a hell of a time keeping everybody [TS]

  straight like all of the humans involved [TS]

  and their relation to each other and [TS]

  like who knew what when [TS]

  I this doesn't fit very naturally into [TS]

  my brain and I think that for someone [TS]

  like me who has a hard time following [TS]

  some of those details it did a very good [TS]

  job of trying to constantly remind you [TS]

  who everybody is what is the [TS]

  relationship to each other showing the [TS]

  org chart of the police constantly up on [TS]

  the screen and highlighting this person [TS]

  spoke to that person you know when was [TS]

  this in that I have to say I think it [TS]

  was very very well made for a topic [TS]

  we're even if it was just ten percent [TS]

  worse i would have been fifty percent [TS]

  more lost like maybe they did a good job [TS]

  holding it together for me anyway [TS]

  mm so I i really liked it i have set I [TS]

  like too much more than i thought i [TS]

  would let us know as as always with [TS]

  these things sort of binge watch it all [TS]

  in a row yesterday [TS]

  yes Oh house like all of the episodes [TS]

  like blur together a little bit but i [TS]

  also think if i had watched this over [TS]

  any length of time I wouldn't have had a [TS]

  prayer of holding it all together in my [TS]

  head so aside from finding a sort of an [TS]

  entertaining and engaging addicted to [TS]

  come away with any kind of new thoughts [TS]

  about ya criminal justice system has [TS]

  landed [TS]

  no I mostly just found this man's false [TS]

  imprisonment like quite entertaining for [TS]

  me for free [TS]

  look at I don't know what you want me to [TS]

  say but like in some ways this is the [TS]

  kind of thing that just reaffirms many [TS]

  of my thoughts about the criminal [TS]

  justice system [TS]

  yeah like [TS]

  you know it's just every affirms many of [TS]

  my thoughts about what people imagine [TS]

  themselves to be I let's just let's just [TS]

  take what i think is is the perhaps the [TS]

  most galling and clear of all of the [TS]

  things is not Steven Avery but talking [TS]

  about his cousin brandon yes right who [TS]

  who is this kid who was interrogated by [TS]

  the police over this three-and-a-half [TS]

  hour period with out any legal defense [TS]

  present without his mother present and [TS]

  from my perspective and I think if you [TS]

  see the video most people would agree is [TS]

  basically like not exactly bleed but [TS]

  just tricked into a false confession is [TS]

  also you cannot overemphasize how much [TS]

  he is a guy who's not blessed with [TS]

  normal intelligence [TS]

  yes so is like it is yeah it's certainly [TS]

  probably the most jaw-dropping part of [TS]

  the whole series isn't the way and how [TS]

  he's thrown to the Lions by his defense [TS]

  lawyer as well like at times is his [TS]

  first offense that actually conspires [TS]

  against him to have this done to him as [TS]

  well which is even more amazing [TS]

  yeah yeah i mean it again even even [TS]

  ignoring hope it's just like criminal [TS]

  negligence on the part of his own lawyer [TS]

  people will say things like oh but if [TS]

  they were innocent why why would this [TS]

  person give a false confession that [TS]

  people just imagine themselves in ideal [TS]

  circumstances always and so people think [TS]

  oh you know we're having a dinner [TS]

  conversation here on i'm comfortable and [TS]

  having a glass of wine and say oh I [TS]

  would never give a false confession like [TS]

  okay right but let's actually put you in [TS]

  a high-pressure situation and the the [TS]

  tapes of the police interviews are just [TS]

  brutal when you hear the police just [TS]

  constantly saying the same things over [TS]

  and over again like tell us why you [TS]

  killed or tell us why you killed her you [TS]

  know it or like building it up piece by [TS]

  piece [TS]

  you sure you didn't go to his house are [TS]

  you sure you didn't go to his house [TS]

  and people overestimate their own [TS]

  ability to withstand that kind of thing [TS]

  I don't know gray I'm not a hundred [TS]

  percent agree with you there [TS]

  I i think what was time to him was put [TS]

  was wrong and like a travesty and when [TS]

  you watch it you just can't believe what [TS]

  you're saying but he wasn't like he [TS]

  wasn't being like water board or tied up [TS]

  upside down with bamboo shoots under his [TS]

  fingernails like he's sitting in a [TS]

  comfortable chair he's being asked tough [TS]

  questions but it is a murder [TS]

  investigation [TS]

  yeah and and he does like he does admit [TS]

  admit to things and the part of me that [TS]

  I mean he should have had a lawyer and [TS]

  his parents should have been there and [TS]

  the police were really wrong for that [TS]

  reason but the part of me that was most [TS]

  amazed is that people will admit to a [TS]

  murder under those circumstances just so [TS]

  they can go home will go back to school [TS]

  like that there are people who who are [TS]

  that but this is this is exactly the [TS]

  unexpected human behavior yeah everybody [TS]

  likes to think oh you know I wouldn't i [TS]

  wouldn't give a false confession if I [TS]

  was just sitting on a couch [TS]

  I wouldn't gray right yeah of course of [TS]

  course your grade chorus right but the [TS]

  thing is we know that that is not the [TS]

  case like and no through science how [TS]

  remarkably easy it is to inject false [TS]

  memories into people right [TS]

  remarkably easy like this this is this [TS]

  is precisely the point and I just I get [TS]

  frustrated when people just imagine that [TS]

  that I go an innocent person would never [TS]

  confess that we know that that's not the [TS]

  case we absolutely know that that's not [TS]

  the case i guess the thing that amazed [TS]

  me was how easy it was to do but as you [TS]

  said the kid is not a bright kid em [TS]

  right i mean they said his IQ was like [TS]

  65 or 70 like he's a borderline retarded [TS]

  kid and so and then he admits to the [TS]

  murder think that's great now I can go [TS]

  back to school and hand in my homework [TS]

  yeah they getting it's so clear he has [TS]

  no concept really of what's going on and [TS]

  I mean there's a few points where his [TS]

  vocabulary is so limited that it's like [TS]

  he doesn't even know what he's agreeing [TS]

  to he doesn't know if people [TS]

  are confirming or denying the thing with [TS]

  you saying because he doesn't know words [TS]

  like confirm or deny it's just awful to [TS]

  watch and like ask a grown adults like [TS]

  Steven Avery and his his cousin a grown [TS]

  adults is also interviewed under brutal [TS]

  circumstances and he does not elicit a [TS]

  false confession so again as with many [TS]

  things there is a statistical outcome [TS]

  right but you can't say that like no one [TS]

  will ever give a false confession are [TS]

  now I'm there and when I was joking [TS]

  saying I wouldn't do it I probably would [TS]

  do if I was being water boarded and had [TS]

  boots under my fingernails but but i bet [TS]

  we could get you to give a false [TS]

  confession under less circumstance and [TS]

  probably for a kit kat diet pepsi yeah [TS]

  exactly the thing the thing that I write [TS]

  it down what did he say [TS]

  hold on ok so there was a thing that [TS]

  just it just broke my heart so again [TS]

  it's it's this that they're talking [TS]

  about Brendan this kid giving this false [TS]

  confession and his mom is asking him [TS]

  like why did he give this confession and [TS]

  you know he says oh I you know I don't [TS]

  know I don't know and and at one point [TS]

  he said something like they kept asking [TS]

  me these questions and I guess the [TS]

  answers for you [TS]

  I guests because that's what I do with [TS]

  my homework and the thing that broke my [TS]

  heart about that is I have totally done [TS]

  the same kind of false confession [TS]

  tactics with my own students under [TS]

  different circumstances which is the [TS]

  like are you sure you're done with this [TS]

  paper right which is basically saying [TS]

  like something wrong on this piece of [TS]

  paper and like this this is just what [TS]

  happens in schools of like that you want [TS]

  to go with option A or option B this [TS]

  this kid who's not a bright kid has [TS]

  almost certainly grown up in an [TS]

  environment where this is what adults [TS]

  are doing just all the time around [TS]

  right half like so we want you to say [TS]

  this thing we don't want you to say this [TS]

  thing like pickup from from what I'm [TS]

  putting down like which way you should [TS]

  go with this kid and you know I like i [TS]

  know i know i have done that with dumb [TS]

  kids in class where they're saying some [TS]

  stuff and you're just like you're just [TS]

  trying to move along like why don't know [TS]

  what do you think about this option like [TS]

  oh that option sounds like great what [TS]

  the police it was so like it wasn't even [TS]

  that subtle though I mean I can't think [TS]

  of a specific example but it was almost [TS]

  along the lines of like you know to make [TS]

  something up but to make it similar did [TS]

  you cut with what part of her body did [TS]

  you cut and he would say fort and I go [TS]

  no shin no knee know by and he was like [TS]

  guessing every single part of the body [TS]

  until he finally he would say the one [TS]

  they wanted and then go are so you did [TS]

  you know he had to ear right have to hit [TS]

  19 other body parts yeah this is it but [TS]

  this is exactly how false confessions [TS]

  get made right is as soon as you get the [TS]

  person to just agree a little bit like [TS]

  you you planted that seed in their mind [TS]

  and then like you start going over the [TS]

  whole thing like that's ok let's take it [TS]

  from the beginning so you said you did [TS]

  go to his house right you did step [TS]

  inside you'd go here and now you're [TS]

  saying you did cut her in the knee [TS]

  I like you just another what happened [TS]

  next like tell us what happened next and [TS]

  you and you just keep badgering for some [TS]

  detailing to get that other detail and [TS]

  then you start over again and be like [TS]

  okay let's go through and make sure we [TS]

  have the story again like and just for [TS]

  hours and hours and hours of this [TS]

  p-people fold in ways that are our [TS]

  unexpected and so the the Brendan thing [TS]

  is is the absolute the worst the most [TS]

  appalling one that just makes me sad in [TS]

  so many ways that the police have an [TS]

  incentive to get a confession out of [TS]

  someone [TS]

  humans bend in this way that is [TS]

  remarkably unexpected and because it is [TS]

  unexpected juries are very hard to [TS]

  convince that false confessions exists [TS]

  is just like a perfect storm of [TS]

  awfulness in the judicial system it was [TS]

  remarkable the way the two trials like [TS]

  attacked in completely different ways as [TS]

  well it was almost like you want that do [TS]

  that like to save that the murder happen [TS]

  111 try and then go to the other [TS]

  first trial and the exact same guy [TS]

  saying that happened in a completely [TS]

  different way like wow I'm amazed I'm [TS]

  amazed you can do that well that this to [TS]

  me again for people who are just [TS]

  listening to us talk about this now like [TS]

  they ran two separate murder trials for [TS]

  these two different guys Brenden and [TS]

  Stephen and yes they were [TS]

  this state was presenting different [TS]

  theories about the murders at each just [TS]

  seems unbelievable but it's a it's a [TS]

  reminder of-of course the judicial [TS]

  system is this thing that is about [TS]

  procedure and it is about trying to [TS]

  convince people and the thing that i [TS]

  really dislike about it is that this [TS]

  state has incentives to win and because [TS]

  the state has an incentive to win they [TS]

  participate in things that seem [TS]

  obviously counter to what you think is [TS]

  truth seeking behavior and it shouldn't [TS]

  be unexpected when you give people [TS]

  incentives to win that they want to win [TS]

  that prosecutors have careers that the [TS]

  the Chief of Police has a reputation to [TS]

  uphold like I don't know if there's a [TS]

  great way around it but it's just it is [TS]

  not unexpected [TS]

  it's just sad to see it so laid out [TS]

  taking away like you know profession [TS]

  professional pride and career [TS]

  progression and all those reasons that [TS]

  the state is incentivized to win take [TS]

  all that away and pretend they were just [TS]

  all-out realistic people who was serving [TS]

  us wrap who didn't have their own [TS]

  careers to think about who shouldn't [TS]

  they still be incentivized to win [TS]

  because the bad guys break the rules as [TS]

  well like it's not like the bad guys go [TS]

  into court and saying okay let's just [TS]

  find out the facts like the bad guys are [TS]

  obstructing I so like obstructing and [TS]

  doing the wrong thing so much that don't [TS]

  the good guys need like some kind of [TS]

  like don't need to fight back in the [TS]

  interest of Justice if they just SAT [TS]

  there passively and accepted everything [TS]

  I mean well I'm not sure what you mean [TS]

  by the bad guys break the rules like I [TS]

  don't think that the defense is allowed [TS]

  to break rules in court [TS]

  what do you mean by break the room is [TS]

  like it's like if I rob a bank [TS]

  and then the police think I robbed the [TS]

  bank and take me to the core [TS]

  it's not like we all held up by hand to [TS]

  say ok there's no more good guys and bad [TS]

  guys let's just walk in a room and [TS]

  everyone told the truth and then justice [TS]

  will be done like once the trial starts [TS]

  like the bad guys are still lying and [TS]

  they're twisting and they're tricking [TS]

  and their big tactical and if the [TS]

  prosecution wasn't allowed to be [TS]

  technical [TS]

  I'm not saying the prosecution should [TS]

  lie but if the prosecution wasn't [TS]

  allowed to be tactical in return [TS]

  wouldn't wouldn't the prosecution be [TS]

  turning up to a gunfight with a knife [TS]

  like wouldn't it be a case of like they [TS]

  need the full armory that is being used [TS]

  by the defense including the use of [TS]

  tactics and strategy and like so this is [TS]

  this is that this is the thing right [TS]

  this is an interesting point that I [TS]

  think comes up when I argue with people [TS]

  about the judicial system sometimes it [TS]

  is one I always find it interesting how [TS]

  often everybody is tempted to frame it [TS]

  in these terms there is the prosecutor [TS]

  and there is a criminal [TS]

  okay well we're already starting from a [TS]

  bad place right that there is there is [TS]

  someone who is on the defense who is [TS]

  suspected of this crime [TS]

  yeah but we're pretty were supposed to [TS]

  presume that they are innocent [TS]

  yeah right but if you actually speak to [TS]

  people [TS]

  nobody's nobody works from that starting [TS]

  position like everybody in their mind is [TS]

  imagining like yeah okay we say that but [TS]

  surely most of the time they're bad [TS]

  people [TS]

  now I wasn't really doing i can see what [TS]

  sounds that way but I wasn't really [TS]

  doing that what I was doing was i'm not [TS]

  saying that you do not have no items [TS]

  using I was posing to you the [TS]

  hypothetical case where the person is [TS]

  guilty and they're going to get away [TS]

  with it if we don't arm the prosecution [TS]

  with the same tools we are the defense [TS]

  with ya [TS]

  also also saying we shouldn't you know [TS]

  that the prosecution shouldn't be so [TS]

  focused on winning they should be [TS]

  focused on truth but if they don't focus [TS]

  on winning i think they they stay don't [TS]

  use the tools of winning and that will [TS]

  allow the very occasional guilty person [TS]

  who gets charged with a crime to get [TS]

  away with it in your scenario [TS]

  we're imagining that humans are just [TS]

  perfectly altruistic right and so [TS]

  presuming that the prosecution is [TS]

  convinced that the defendant is guilty [TS]

  that provides them an incentive to want [TS]

  to win now candidate that is separate [TS]

  that is separate from their careers [TS]

  because nobody wants to see a murderer [TS]

  go free and that like there's not what [TS]

  anybody really wants but the thing is [TS]

  like here's here's here's my fundamental [TS]

  problem with this everything in life is [TS]

  a dial right that you are turning up or [TS]

  you're turning down and people always [TS]

  want to argue about where is the correct [TS]

  place to turn that dial and I don't [TS]

  think this is a reasonable argument to [TS]

  have and I think you have to have an [TS]

  argument about look we will never know [TS]

  the exact place to turn the dial and so [TS]

  the question is do we want to have it [TS]

  turn too high or too low and my feeling [TS]

  with something like a judicial system is [TS]

  that you should have the dial turned to [TS]

  high in favor of the defendant because [TS]

  the consequence of being wrong is severe [TS]

  it is deriving a person of their freedom [TS]

  of the only life they will ever get [TS]

  and so if you are wrong that that is a [TS]

  tragedy and now that this is where it [TS]

  comes down to a personal assessment but [TS]

  I i think it is far far worse to [TS]

  wrongfully in prison an innocent person [TS]

  then it is too late guilty person go [TS]

  free [TS]

  now you can make an argument for the [TS]

  other side like this last night we were [TS]

  discussing before everything comes down [TS]

  to some fundamental assumption but that [TS]

  is my feeling that an innocent [TS]

  conviction is vastly worse and so I am [TS]

  willing to turn that dial quite high in [TS]

  defense of [TS]

  the advantage should be to a free man [TS]

  who was just pulled off the streets by [TS]

  the police and then the police have to [TS]

  say here is the evidence for why we [TS]

  think this person should be removed from [TS]

  society possibly until they die [TS]

  the defense is arguing against police [TS]

  procedure and people go like oh what [TS]

  they're trying to put a murderer away [TS]

  like now you but you you can't think [TS]

  about the particular situation if if you [TS]

  like let's say you're convinced even [TS]

  Avery is an absolute murderer you [TS]

  convinced of it is your stance that this [TS]

  state should be allowed to decide when [TS]

  they don't want to follow procedures to [TS]

  put someone in prison like at we don't [TS]

  need to worry about how we handle the [TS]

  blood and we don't need to worry about [TS]

  people signing in and out of of crime [TS]

  scenes and we don't need to worry that [TS]

  people who were banned from being on the [TS]

  crime scene were actually on the crime [TS]

  scene like you can't give the [TS]

  prosecution that kind of power that's [TS]

  crazy power and and this to me is like [TS]

  with the Stephen a everything is just [TS]

  it's astounded to see how they don't [TS]

  follow the rules and my feeling is like [TS]

  man if i'm sitting on a jury as we [TS]

  discussed before number one [TS]

  my thought is well human testimony is [TS]

  almost worthless including confessions [TS]

  so almost anything that anybody says [TS]

  it's like I'm immediately just throwing [TS]

  it out [TS]

  he's you say you're guilty Brendan I [TS]

  don't even care that you say it right [TS]

  because I'm just not interested what [TS]

  physical evidence do you have [TS]

  and so the state had all of this [TS]

  physical evidence they had a key that [TS]

  was found in the house they had Steven [TS]

  Avery's blood in a car they found her [TS]

  bones in a pit behind his house [TS]

  oh ok well that's that's pretty it's [TS]

  pretty pretty damning physical evidence [TS]

  their government did you follow all of [TS]

  the procedures for collecting this [TS]

  evidence and then they go oh no actually [TS]

  there were some problems collecting it's [TS]

  like okay well now all of this evidence [TS]

  is garbage and now you have nothing like [TS]

  that like that's that's my view on it [TS]

  like if if the state doesn't doesn't [TS]

  have to follow the procedures that's [TS]

  crazytown that is that is insanity it's [TS]

  absolutely insanity [TS]

  so regardless of what the filmmakers say [TS]

  i'm not entirely clear what the [TS]

  filmmakers say about this but I think [TS]

  the purpose of the film was to convey [TS]

  that miscarriage of justice has been [TS]

  done [TS]

  Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey but [TS]

  that's concentrated and Steven Avery for [TS]

  a minute and certainly a lot of other [TS]

  people who've watched it feel this way [TS]

  we see all these petitions to the White [TS]

  House and people saying this needs to be [TS]

  pardoned and whatever did it work on you [TS]

  do you feel a miscarriage of justice has [TS]

  happened a second time to this man [TS]

  I mean look at it this is we're just at [TS]

  the serial thing again [TS]

  yeah I know you and I just a couple of [TS]

  guys yeah we're a couple guys know but [TS]

  my feeling is there it it's astounding [TS]

  that this jury convicted him it's [TS]

  astounding and one of the help of the [TS]

  other things that you don't like Brady [TS]

  but you know it's just my thought on [TS]

  this is is it was just a case of of they [TS]

  show how the police department just was [TS]

  constantly before the trial talking [TS]

  about all of the gruesome details about [TS]

  Steven Avery and the confession and the [TS]

  murder and like how awful it was in the [TS]

  police chief gives this dramatic press [TS]

  conference about like who hide your [TS]

  children behind your skirt while I [TS]

  discussed this horrible murder that has [TS]

  taken place that was crazy like to go [TS]

  away with that press conference before [TS]

  the trial the American justice system [TS]

  never ceases to amaze me for things yet [TS]

  the use of the median trial by media [TS]

  yeah it's astounding and ages an example [TS]

  of the police and the media together [TS]

  poisoning the minds of everyone who [TS]

  could potentially participate in this [TS]

  jury-rigged it's it's amazing it's [TS]

  amazing and speaking of human biases the [TS]

  way someone first here's something like [TS]

  Steven Avery is murderer [TS]

  you almost can't undo a first impression [TS]

  that somebody has em it's almost [TS]

  impossible this is a thing called the [TS]

  backfire effect which it like it's it's [TS]

  astounding but sometimes like if some [TS]

  and here's something that is wrong [TS]

  you're very attempt to explain why it's [TS]

  wrong end up convincing the person even [TS]

  more that their first impression was [TS]

  correct [TS]

  i agree with you like I cannot believe [TS]

  whenever it happens that the media is [TS]

  allowed to just discuss accusations of [TS]

  anyone on any crime like I find that [TS]

  amazing it like because i think that [TS]

  there's a little bit of you know of just [TS]

  desserts for the police commissioner in [TS]

  this case where you know he was using [TS]

  all of these press conferences to [TS]

  totally just poison the well for Steven [TS]

  Avery on the jury and in the end like he [TS]

  is he's talking to some reporter who's [TS]

  gotten sex text messages that he sent [TS]

  two people he's worked with a special [TS]

  prosecutor was in the end and the [TS]

  reporter is like oh but if if you if you [TS]

  have there's nothing if you haven't done [TS]

  anything you have nothing to worry about [TS]

  right and any sense of the reporters [TS]

  like oh come on you know full well as I [TS]

  do that just the accusation will destroy [TS]

  someone [TS]

  yeah it's like yeah you bastard you're [TS]

  exactly right [TS]

  yeah so I don't know it's just in [TS]

  addition to what seemed to me to answer [TS]

  your question a horrific miscarriage of [TS]

  justice [TS]

  it is also just fit right into a lot of [TS]

  my preconceptions about like man the way [TS]

  the media is allowed to report on [TS]

  criminal affairs are awful and it's [TS]

  quite that stuff that doesn't that [TS]

  doesn't happen in the UK and no and [TS]

  Australia and you know they're quiet [TS]

  they're very strict rules about [TS]

  reporting court cases and certainly the [TS]

  country's I've working as a journalist [TS]

  that's why when i watch this I'm like it [TS]

  almost seems like a like a joke to me [TS]

  like made up because the things they're [TS]

  doing you just can't [TS]

  he's Kentucky's couldn't do you need the [TS]

  journalists would be in jail [TS]

  I honestly think all of those [TS]

  journalists should be in jail and the [TS]

  court TV the court TV astounds me how [TS]

  they're like they're like sports [TS]

  commentators and pundits and they're [TS]

  predicting what might happen next and [TS]

  who won that day's play and do you think [TS]

  he's do you think like I just can't [TS]

  believe this cantilever it's just like [TS]

  sport is that so [TS]

  like gladiators or something and that to [TS]

  me just feeds the whole problem like [TS]

  everybody starts picking sides and then [TS]

  all of a sudden you have once again with [TS]

  humans love to do is they divided [TS]

  themselves into tribes and then it [TS]

  becomes more about sticking to your side [TS]

  as opposed to any kind of trying to sort [TS]

  out what is what is really right [TS]

  aight immediately it's just awful and [TS]

  Africa it's just it's like the thing I [TS]

  keep thinking of is there some kind of [TS]

  horrible cross between like whores and [TS]

  vultures because the way they say flock [TS]

  around every person who's involved in [TS]

  this trial is just just despicable the [TS]

  way they're picking apart the emotional [TS]

  trauma of other people for their own [TS]

  benefit and careers still haven't [TS]

  answered my question what do you think [TS]

  he did that well you asked if it was a [TS]

  miscarriage of justice which I would say [TS]

  yes again no way he should have been [TS]

  convicted under those circumstances [TS]

  yeah if I have to put money on the table [TS]

  hmm i would say no he didn't do it right [TS]

  much more so than with cereal i feel [TS]

  like i'm very aware of having watched a [TS]

  thing that is super favorable to this [TS]

  person [TS]

  mm but my feeling is know that this guy [TS]

  didn't do it he got framed to me if [TS]

  that's true isn't it amazing how [TS]

  audacious the police work to do this and [TS]

  almost like it's like how do you think [TS]

  you could get away with that will they [TS]

  do get away with it but how do you think [TS]

  you get away with that with all that [TS]

  attention but part of me thinks it's [TS]

  probably some slight backwater this [TS]

  matter what county in wisconsin and they [TS]

  never realized it was going to become [TS]

  this big famous netflix series in a big [TS]

  national story and yeah well this is I [TS]

  mean I hate to say it but I think like [TS]

  small towns have particular horrors in [TS]

  them and then and this this kind of [TS]

  small town [TS]

  you know big hats kind of thing like [TS]

  it's just horrifying consumed like I [TS]

  think it's not surprising that this kind [TS]

  of corruption in the police department [TS]

  can happen something to point out that [TS]

  which i think i'm not sure how great [TS]

  this the show tries to wrap it up with [TS]

  us but the defense lawyer doesn't make [TS]

  the point which i think is true which is [TS]

  that I don't think that anybody in the [TS]

  police department is like oh man we we [TS]

  can't wait to frame this guy and we're [TS]

  gonna get him [TS]

  I i think they are all just horrific Lee [TS]

  biased against this person [TS]

  hmm and they all felt like they were [TS]

  moving this along to make sure that they [TS]

  can put him in prison that you know we [TS]

  haven't spoken about it but there are [TS]

  very many reasons why the like the [TS]

  family wasn't liked by the local [TS]

  community I think that there's this guy [TS]

  wasn't plucked out of absolutely nowhere [TS]

  you know he got into trouble as a kid so [TS]

  that like their there's more going on [TS]

  here but my feeling is that this Theresa [TS]

  girl got murdered by somebody else who [TS]

  took advantage of the situation so I [TS]

  think that seems really unlikely gray [TS]

  that seems like it seems pretty amazing [TS]

  to think I want to murder this i think i [TS]

  can get away with a murder today because [TS]

  if i disposed of the body in this way at [TS]

  this person's house this person who the [TS]

  police are already predisposed against [TS]

  is is almost certainly going to go down [TS]

  but that seems really implausible to me [TS]

  that a third party did the murder and [TS]

  the third party frame Steven Avery I [TS]

  think the most likely scenarios are a [TS]

  vreedle up or someone else did it and [TS]

  the police fair [TS]

  and evidence and moved the evidence into [TS]

  a place where we made it more obvious [TS]

  that Steven Avery get it whether or not [TS]

  they thought he did or not they moved [TS]

  the evidence that I i find it very hard [TS]

  to believe that a third party so i think [TS]

  i could get away with murder this week [TS]

  because I could frame every or they did [TS]

  a mirror and thought now i'll put it on [TS]

  every it seems to me that is that second [TS]

  scenario is seems more likely that the [TS]

  police find her dead and the move her in [TS]

  only four days fixed even they find her [TS]

  dead they think Steven Avery did it [TS]

  because that was the last house he was [TS]

  at and they're thinking we got no [TS]

  evidence we can make this stick like [TS]

  Avery's clearly done and he's gonna get [TS]

  away with it again we can make this [TS]

  stick because so then they start moving [TS]

  a couple of things here but they have to [TS]

  move a lot of things because they have [TS]

  to move her car and they have to move [TS]

  the remnants of her but like moving the [TS]

  car is a big deal [TS]

  ya like like to the police find the car [TS]

  up the road [TS]

  i I don't know that that to me seems way [TS]

  harder then there's a huge celebrity [TS]

  like this is the other thing to be like [TS]

  to be really clear about he's not just [TS]

  like some guy in the blue that the [TS]

  police have had run-ins a huge known [TS]

  person in this area like the family are [TS]

  well known i don't think it's crazy to [TS]

  think someone would think this is a [TS]

  great place to try to dump the body [TS]

  right and and if it's found they're not [TS]

  going to look too hard but my feeling is [TS]

  somebody else killed her he was so [TS]

  well-known like the that it's an obvious [TS]

  place to dump a body and and think maybe [TS]

  they'll just they'll just not look very [TS]

  far past this guy if they if they find a [TS]

  body on on his property and just think [TS]

  oh right [TS]

  this this guy everybody already thinks [TS]

  it's kind of awful he did it when i [TS]

  watch something like this like i love i [TS]

  really like America I work through all [TS]

  the time [TS]

  lots of my friends are Americans and [TS]

  Americans you Americans call place when [TS]

  i watch this documentary I sometimes [TS]

  think while man [TS]

  America's weird you know only in America [TS]

  as they say and you sort of think [TS]

  that's a crazy place do you look at MIT [TS]

  American things like that now you live [TS]

  in London and have lived here for a long [TS]

  time do you watch this like do you feel [TS]

  like an outsider when you watch this [TS]

  order watches and think my country that [TS]

  is a bit weird sometimes I don't know [TS]

  I've lived outside of the US long enough [TS]

  that I have a lot of distance from it [TS]

  no it feels like another place but much [TS]

  less than the American thing this this [TS]

  to me just feels much more like a [TS]

  small-town kind of place where I think [TS]

  that that's what actually feels like the [TS]

  real difference and like small towns you [TS]

  know everybody knows everybody else and [TS]

  like the police department has a blood [TS]

  feud with some family because because of [TS]

  a cousin who married into the police [TS]

  department [TS]

  you gotta love LA like this is how this [TS]

  whole thing kicks off is like one of the [TS]

  distant Avery's who who doesn't get [TS]

  along with the marries into the police [TS]

  departments like that this is the [TS]

  problem [TS]

  problem [TS]

  one with small places like to adjust [TS]

  their incestuous in this way is like [TS]

  everybody's connected to everybody else [TS]

  and that can be great when things go [TS]

  well but it can be terrible when things [TS]

  go wrong this to me is the the flipside [TS]

  like the dark side of a small community [TS]

  and that's what I've he was the real [TS]

  difference i don't feel like oh it's [TS]

  America it is more days like oh god it's [TS]

  a small town and these are all the [TS]

  things that are creepy and weird about [TS]

  small towns and so that that's that's [TS]

  how i feel about this [TS]

  I remember really early on getting [TS]

  really excited though because quite [TS]

  early in the show they mention sheboygan [TS]

  yeah i've never heard of sheboygan until [TS]

  during our postcard count when you one [TS]

  of the first postcards you pull that was [TS]

  from sheboygan wisconsin remember you [TS]

  made a little joke about it right and [TS]

  also have never heard of that place is [TS]

  quite funny and then really early on [TS]

  sheboygan came up and I'm like oh I know [TS]

  what your game is probably will get you [TS]

  big man on campus [TS]

  I'm sure there's some name from the [TS]

  effect we have never heard of a word or [TS]

  a place before and then it starts [TS]

  popping up a few times that you know [TS]

  there is there is there's totally a word [TS]

  for that you know [TS]

  well I got that there you go alright [TS]

  making a murder quite clever name for [TS]

  the show isn't it because what is making [TS]

  a murderer remain as a good name wasn't [TS]

  right [TS]

  did they is it just like making like the [TS]

  police make someone for the crime or do [TS]

  they make a murderer out of him by how [TS]

  he was treated earlier or did they make [TS]

  him into a murder with fake evidence got [TS]

  lots of meetings that title isn't it [TS]

  yeah the other manufacturing murder [TS]

  that's the title [TS]