Hello Internet

H.I. #59: Consumed by Donkey Kong


  you have this thing listed under [TS]

  follow-up I don't think it's follow-up [TS]

  at all it's a new topic but you just [TS]

  want to talk about it [TS]

  this is how you steal the show all the [TS]

  time you put everything you want to talk [TS]

  about you listed as follow-up even if [TS]

  it's not remotely follow [TS]

  well yeah I know your trick I know what [TS]

  you're up to it wasn't really a trick I [TS]

  thought Carter was follow-up there's [TS]

  nothing about it that follow-up the [TS]

  listeners will now this news will know [TS]

  now this is my hairdresser story and the [TS]

  reason I wanted to tell you was I [TS]

  thought it had two components that would [TS]

  appeal to you because if there if there [TS]

  are two things that sort of have some [TS]

  level of Appeal t1 is being horrified by [TS]

  social situations [TS]

  this is that appealing i don't think [TS]

  that's the feeling I don't know that it [TS]

  always gets a response from you at least [TS]

  ya think I guess what these 10 ya hear [TS]

  you because you are a natural [TS]

  winder-upper here in your brain equate [TS]

  getting a response from someone to [TS]

  appealing to them that's that's just the [TS]

  way there but it's but it's just so hard [TS]

  to get you to engage with my stories [TS]

  unless it's something that you're really [TS]

  into it is not true it's very hard to [TS]

  get you to engage and I think this has [TS]

  two things that engaging one is you are [TS]

  engaged by horrifying social situations [TS]

  and the other thing that engages you is [TS]

  my ineptitude and this story has both of [TS]

  them in space [TS]

  I'm looking I'm looking forward to the [TS]

  story but I do just want to get it on [TS]

  record that when we're doing the podcast [TS]

  I know you don't believe me and I always [TS]

  get it was kinda crazy sometimes yell at [TS]

  me about how I don't I don't respond [TS]

  fast enough to you the reason I find [TS]

  these podcasts so draining to do is that [TS]

  whenever you're talking i am spending [TS]

  the whole time [TS]

  consciously thinking about is there a [TS]

  question that i can ask brady what can i [TS]

  say pretty at the end of the story so [TS]

  it's it's draining it's exhausting [TS]

  because I'm i am spending one hundred [TS]

  percent of my attention fixated on you [TS]

  thinking about what to say and how to [TS]

  how to engage with this conversation [TS]

  that she just comes naturally [TS]

  that should just be natural it should be [TS]

  natural it should be natural if you're [TS]

  Brady but not if you were great [TS]

  if your gray it's not natural is that's [TS]

  why it's always so frustrating it's he's [TS]

  so frustrating you criticize me for not [TS]

  engaging your stories like man I am [TS]

  never more focused on human [TS]

  conversation than I am during the three [TS]

  hours in which we record one of these [TS]

  episodes you've got me at my peak social [TS]

  this is the best i can do and I do it [TS]

  for you Brady don't focus too much [TS]

  because it puts too much pressure on the [TS]

  story now it's like are like now I know [TS]

  that you're sort of listening with this [TS]

  double attention and thinking of [TS]

  questions and suddenly there's a lot of [TS]

  pressure on the story and the story is [TS]

  not that good [TS]

  it's no different than any other time [TS]

  that we ever record the podcast but so [TS]

  now tell me there's amazing amazing [TS]

  story i'm really looking forward to it [TS]

  I drove down into the center of my town [TS]

  because i wanted to get the car claimed [TS]

  give it the big shebang [TS]

  now I don't know whether I should call [TS]

  that validating or valet because that [TS]

  seems to be something that people it's a [TS]

  valet so it's valuing their well that's [TS]

  what I thought but more and more often [TS]

  i'm hearing it called people calling [TS]

  invalidate which i think is wrong [TS]

  of course your horse is wrong isn't it a [TS]

  French word they don't regard consonants [TS]

  at the end of their words so I took the [TS]

  car down to this place where there are [TS]

  these guys who wash up [TS]

  I've got like this what you call and [TS]

  like 10th like a little marquee type [TS]

  thing that people can drive in [TS]

  underneath so the best shelter in case [TS]

  it rains and they'll sit there and i'll [TS]

  spray your car and I'll open the doors [TS]

  and I'll get inside and that cumin and [TS]

  polish everything and make our lovely I [TS]

  take it they're reasonably often and [TS]

  because i was going to go and get my [TS]

  haircut and I had some errands to run [TS]

  I leave it with them leave the cut the [TS]

  keys in the ignition and I say guys take [TS]

  care for me so I've had to just outside [TS]

  think that it like that it's zero it [TS]

  sleep well just I like it was apparently [TS]

  it was like you leaving of baby with the [TS]

  up guys i say with take care of its we [TS]

  discuss we discuss which like which [TS]

  option are one and i went for the [TS]

  20-pound option okay yeah the way the [TS]

  way you communicate to them how much [TS]

  they should take care of it is with [TS]

  money that's how you communicate this [TS]

  yes so why would i want the 20-pound [TS]

  option and i couldn't Park it right in [TS]

  the little little zone because they were [TS]

  doing another car so I parked behind [TS]

  that car and I left went to the post [TS]

  office went to the bank did my jobs and [TS]

  then I went to the head [TS]

  sir I picked a bad time schools were out [TS]

  and I picked the wrong time of day a [TS]

  time that I don't normally like to go [TS]

  and the place was packed [TS]

  I had to sit there and wait forever for [TS]

  my turn and I could have said I'll come [TS]

  back another day but I really need to [TS]

  get my haircut so i had to wait it out [TS]

  and I must await an hour and a half and [TS]

  then finally got my haircut and he was a [TS]

  he was slow to he was slow and a half [TS]

  Jesus and here comes the situation at [TS]

  the end of the haircut I thought you did [TS]

  a pretty good job [TS]

  albeit slow at the end of the haircut he [TS]

  says can I take a photo [TS]

  what and I thought I thought you know [TS]

  maybe he was a trainee or this was one [TS]

  of the best haircut ever don't nobody [TS]

  want to take photo / and I was kind of [TS]

  that [TS]

  mmm yeah like I guess and then he and [TS]

  then i said what for and he said I want [TS]

  to put it on Instagram [TS]

  yeah oh yeah and I thought cannot be [TS]

  greater if the hairdresser said can I [TS]

  take a photo of your you put it on [TS]

  Instagram [TS]

  that's a really awkward situation ok [TS]

  here's the question his question was he [TS]

  was he using social dominance on you [TS]

  like we are you still sitting down or [TS]

  you still build up i was i was sitting [TS]

  down I was still had my big coat i was [TS]

  very vulnerable [TS]

  oh no how's that i was i was in a [TS]

  position of weakness like an [TS]

  interrogation room [TS]

  yeah it was it was a really awkward [TS]

  situation but i know this is becoming a [TS]

  big thing in the in the young people's [TS]

  hairdresser community because it really [TS]

  my nephew was showing me the Instagram [TS]

  of his hairdresser and everyone who gets [TS]

  the hague cut by him has an Instagram [TS]

  down and they do these special poses and [TS]

  things like that so it's becoming a [TS]

  really big thing in the in the trendy [TS]

  cool hairdresser community in this [TS]

  hairdresser I go to his choir quite a [TS]

  trendy cool place for young people they [TS]

  really big on instagramming other [TS]

  haircuts afterwards [TS]

  oh no no that's that's a guy i gave it a [TS]

  no I did I i found the strength and ice [TS]

  I gave him and I gave him thanks but no [TS]

  thanks [TS]

  how is it received [TS]

  quiet and awkwardly I did I didn't think [TS]

  I my goodness great would have hated [TS]

  that are you ever gonna go back to this [TS]

  person [TS]

  yeah i'll get back now you can go when [TS]

  it comes to hairdressers i'm such a [TS]

  creature of habit that's why i SAT there [TS]

  for an hour and a half and sort of going [TS]

  to one of the four or five other ones on [TS]

  the straight because this is where I get [TS]

  my haircut 45 other ones you mean that [TS]

  tiny town where you live [TS]

  there's no there's not 45 hairdressers [TS]

  on the stairs that happened to it [TS]

  they're totally is is that you have like [TS]

  three shops on the street there's an [TS]

  italian store because the pair's a [TS]

  corner store there's a corner store a [TS]

  carwash 3 charity shops and 19 hair [TS]

  dresses with his dreams local economy at [TS]

  anyway I got out of there awkward [TS]

  situation over go go to the carwash [TS]

  ready to be apologetic from having left [TS]

  my car there for two two-and-a-half [TS]

  hours i get there [TS]

  mm my car hasn't moved what's going on I [TS]

  walk up to the guy saying what's going [TS]

  on and they look at the gang are there [TS]

  you are there you are [TS]

  turns out out of just habit and reflex I [TS]

  didn't leave my keys in the ignition and [TS]

  I took them with me and my carried [TS]

  sitting there blocking the entrance to [TS]

  their car wash my camping for the last [TS]

  two and a half hours [TS]

  yeah what an effective afternoon of [TS]

  errands you had it was never our I felt [TS]

  so bad I felt so bad about it that [TS]

  Instagram thing now man that's [TS]

  horrifying [TS]

  this is the grandma doesn't sound like [TS]

  anything good is coming up as far as i [TS]

  can tell it's a real big thing in the [TS]

  hairdressing community at least in the [TS]

  West of England no no nope nope nope not [TS]

  having that happen i know that's not [TS]

  gonna happen that can happen not ever [TS]

  not ever [TS]

  I'm i made some I made some reference to [TS]

  sort of like with my job I'd rather not [TS]

  have that hairdresser pictures posted of [TS]

  me and then he thought I was some kind [TS]

  of spy or did something like the [TS]

  security and I stand corrected [TS]

  it's the because he started to figure [TS]

  you start to make up a story to justify [TS]

  why [TS]

  yeah I did I made some I made some ice [TS]

  or said something the car with my work [TS]

  it's like it's not something i'd rather [TS]

  not be doing [TS]

  it's very hard not to do but i find the [TS]

  trick in those situations if you're [TS]

  going to have to say now is don't [TS]

  justify right you just say no and then [TS]

  there's going to be an awkward silence [TS]

  but the first person to break the [TS]

  awkward silence losses and so you don't [TS]

  want to be the loser [TS]

  no I still got my way but I mean I know [TS]

  is I didn't think you would find out how [TS]

  your double hard when it comes to that [TS]

  stuff but yeah but if the other person [TS]

  plays the it sounds like this guy he was [TS]

  trying to manipulate you again you're in [TS]

  a vulnerable position that's when he [TS]

  decides to ask [TS]

  he probably knows the tricks he you know [TS]

  i'm just imagining in this situation [TS]

  that he would have also tried to beat [TS]

  the awkward silence and sometimes that [TS]

  can go on for a while you know it's like [TS]

  a staring contest between gorillas I [TS]

  don't think either i looked that good or [TS]

  the haircut was that good that he was [TS]

  gonna really lobby for football but [TS]

  maybe maybe it maybe it was a [TS]

  once-in-a-generation haircut and I don't [TS]

  even realize it and I just look amazing [TS]

  right now I didn't notice on the video [TS]

  chat before we started i'm sorry I [TS]

  really am finding myself wishing that [TS]

  the story had gone the other way [TS]

  mainly because I would enjoy nothing [TS]

  more than putting a link to your [TS]

  photograph on Instagram of your haircut [TS]

  in the show notes are really quite [TS]

  enjoyed this will be fun forever at this [TS]

  little picture here now having to miss [TS]

  out on it didn't happen if you wanna [TS]

  give us a selfie with the show notes the [TS]

  reason I really needed to get a cat was [TS]

  because i was doing some objectivity [TS]

  videos the next day so you could you can [TS]

  do me a big favor and just post one of [TS]

  those it's way less funny if I'm just [TS]

  pimping objectivity [TS]

  I mean I guess I'll do it yeah look out [TS]

  links objectivity in the show notes [TS]

  people it's not nearly as funny it like [TS]

  it's not really what I want from you [TS]

  ready [TS]

  you're not giving me what I want charlie [TS]

  brooker who i think you and i both [TS]

  advanced off we quite like some of the [TS]

  things he does [TS]

  hey he was just having a bit of a great [TS]

  because some recent stuff that came up [TS]

  in the parliament or recap up in the [TS]

  parliament and that is the fact that I [TS]

  think this is crazy that satirical [TS]

  television shows in and not allowed to [TS]

  use footage from inside the UK [TS]

  Parliament [TS]

  and this has been hamstringing Charlie [TS]

  broker who makes satirical TV shows for [TS]

  quite some time because when he wants to [TS]

  poke fun at the politicians they have [TS]

  banned old TV shows like him from using [TS]

  the footage of proceedings in Parliament [TS]

  can be used on the news it can be used [TS]

  in various other shows but if you're [TS]

  poking fun at them band [TS]

  I don't understand how such a law could [TS]

  get passed by the people of the polymer [TS]

  yeah I i find that just astounding that [TS]

  the people in Parliament would pass such [TS]

  a narrowly self-serving law it's it's [TS]

  confusing to me i don't i don't get it i [TS]

  think it's all my so self-serving that [TS]

  i'm surprised i had had the audacity to [TS]

  have the balls that do it [TS]

  yeah for comparison for Americans you [TS]

  know like this this stuff charlie [TS]

  brooker does it's a bit like if congress [TS]

  passed a law saying that the daily show [TS]

  was not allowed to use footage from [TS]

  inside of of Congress like c-span [TS]

  footage is available to everybody [TS]

  unless you're making fun of c-span [TS]

  footage when the daily show itself pokes [TS]

  fun at the UK and uses footage from the [TS]

  UK Parliament those episodes are banned [TS]

  from being broadcast in the UK copyright [TS]

  and intellectual property it comes up on [TS]

  this show so much and it's a thing that [TS]

  i've been following for years because it [TS]

  really does have this bizarre impact on [TS]

  and everything like the way that we [TS]

  decide intellectual property works has [TS]

  huge unexpected ramifications in all [TS]

  kinds of areas like this is just another [TS]

  example like really really united [TS]

  kingdom you are going to banned the [TS]

  import of satirical shows from overseas [TS]

  because they include footage from [TS]

  Parliament it's so weird and it's it [TS]

  also feels a little bit like you guys [TS]

  know that like this stuff exists on the [TS]

  internet right like people can still [TS]

  skills to view the programs i don't know [TS]

  you don't know what you're trying to do [TS]

  here except just preventing local [TS]

  producers for being able to make stuff [TS]

  like you just I mean I mean I restrict [TS]

  their making it harder to say because it [TS]

  is hard to find that stuff [TS]

  the thing that I have some sympathy for [TS]

  example with [TS]

  Britain being a bit more draconian than [TS]

  other countries like the US with are [TS]

  televising proceedings in courtrooms and [TS]

  things like that [TS]

  I have some sympathy with not televising [TS]

  everything and broadcasting everything [TS]

  or protecting people from being [TS]

  humiliated when they're doing normal [TS]

  things but not the but not the mp's not [TS]

  the part not the people in the [TS]

  parliament that they're the they're the [TS]

  one group that we should be allowed to [TS]

  market satirize and yeah I completely [TS]

  agree with you there as well I like I [TS]

  think I think as we discussed on are [TS]

  making a murderer episode the u.s. goes [TS]

  crazy far and what it allows to be [TS]

  broadcast like I don't think that there [TS]

  should be broadcast inside of courtrooms [TS]

  like that seems antithetical to justice [TS]

  but yeah I completely agree like 0 [TS]

  public servants engaged in public debate [TS]

  like you can't use this footage to make [TS]

  fun of people like that that's bizarre [TS]

  and what I really want to know right [TS]

  like so we have just seen these these [TS]

  tweets from from charlie brooker what I [TS]

  want to know is is how does this affect [TS]

  a youtube channel like I always forget [TS]

  his name is a mixtape boy is that is [TS]

  that the one our cassette boy is set boy [TS]

  thank you i can see the little pirate [TS]

  bay kind of logo there but cassette boy [TS]

  is this guy who does these amazing [TS]

  mashups of political footage and that [TS]

  just I cannot imagine how many hours of [TS]

  work he goes through to do you like [TS]

  recut politicians speeches so that [TS]

  they're saying completely opposite [TS]

  things like I trust me people have seen [TS]

  this stuff done before the the cassette [TS]

  boy does it amazingly amazingly well [TS]

  what's it like this is to this ban on [TS]

  programs that are poking fun at [TS]

  Parliament does it include internet [TS]

  producers within the UK because that boy [TS]

  is located within the UK is this to me [TS]

  seems like it's the kind of thing that [TS]

  might just blow up into a bit of a [TS]

  strong as an effect problem if you're [TS]

  also going to try to ban on the internet [TS]

  it's yeah this copyright stuff is just [TS]

  is just ridiculous [TS]

  I have to rewatch it a cassette boy [TS]

  stuff button in my head most of the [TS]

  stuff he uses is from like press [TS]

  conferences and outside the parliament [TS]

  so I wonder if he does use parliamentary [TS]

  for each other [TS]

  I can't remember now yeah i agree with [TS]

  most of the most of different things [TS]

  outside of it but it's still the idea [TS]

  that like could he use something from [TS]

  within Parliament i don't know i'm not [TS]

  sure they can be ashamed i'm i'm reading [TS]

  this this article about it and it points [TS]

  out that after one of Jon Stewart Daily [TS]

  Show's was censored to so could be shown [TS]

  on channel 4 here in the UK but they [TS]

  actually had to sense the scenes of the [TS]

  Prime Minister talking at the dispatch [TS]

  books Stewart then did another episode [TS]

  like asking about it apparently his [TS]

  quote was why why the people's [TS]

  Parliament the most basic expression of [TS]

  British democracy is too fragile to [TS]

  withstand a gentle parody a good-natured [TS]

  kick to the cluttered creams but you [TS]

  know if people that Jon Stewart putting [TS]

  them under the spotlight and they're [TS]

  still not budging then they probably not [TS]

  going to budge it does just for you feel [TS]

  like you're part of it our feelings are [TS]

  so sensitive you can't make fun of them [TS]

  at all despite the fact that we are [TS]

  public service right it's like it's just [TS]

  it's intrinsically it's intrinsically [TS]

  laughable [TS]

  maybe we need a new video from the from [TS]

  the new repo and flame-throwing cgpgrey [TS]

  don't drag me into this [TS]

  don't drag me into this after you finish [TS]

  torching the fine brothers maybe it's [TS]

  time to turn that laser focus to the [TS]

  British Parliament see if you can shame [TS]

  them into a go back there i'll see if i [TS]

  get divinely-inspired for that voice [TS]

  again this episode of Hello internet is [TS]

  brought to you by Harry's go to Harry's [TS]

  dot-com and use the promo code [TS]

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  thanks to harry's for supporting the [TS]

  show so gray is it time is a finely time [TS]

  as I guess we'll do it you know what I [TS]

  feel like okay people after he's [TS]

  bringing up Guns Germs and Steel right [TS]

  that's why that's why Brady's poking at [TS]

  me here i have this feeling like I'm in [TS]

  school again and there's some assignment [TS]

  that I'm supposed to do and it's really [TS]

  late [TS]

  keep going while handed in next week [TS]

  ahead next week but then at the same [TS]

  time when you don't hand it in every [TS]

  week there's some expectation that it's [TS]

  going to be something really good that [TS]

  you're handing in but now if you're like [TS]

  okay fine fine I'm just gonna hand in [TS]

  this homework assignment and it's just [TS]

  gonna be over and we're just gonna do [TS]

  this so we're going to talk about guns [TS]

  germs and steel but it's is not without [TS]

  its not going to be long people it's not [TS]

  going to be long [TS]

  we're just going to go over a few things [TS]

  and then it's going to be done and it's [TS]

  going to be over [TS]

  alright so by way of background if you [TS]

  are new to the podcast we did an episode [TS]

  recently where we reviewed the book [TS]

  guns guns germs and still grey has made [TS]

  two widely viewed videos which is [TS]

  loosely based on some of the things in [TS]

  the book we talked in the podcast about [TS]

  some views and opinions about things in [TS]

  the book and graded worn at the time [TS]

  that this was a book full of ideas that [TS]

  divided opinion and that turned out to [TS]

  be true and looking at the subreddit [TS]

  dedicated to our discussion it it [TS]

  certainly attracted many opinions many [TS]

  long long detailed comments arguing for [TS]

  and against various various positions i [TS]

  have to say because I hadn't finished [TS]

  the book and don't feel particularly [TS]

  passionate about her i could have dodged [TS]

  this bullet [TS]

  yeah and hannah has mainly been grazed [TS]

  opinions have been coming in for [TS]

  scrutiny and so we've been saying up so [TS]

  we've been thinking do we address some [TS]

  of these days great answer back to some [TS]

  of them and now's your chance grave all [TS]

  of the million things that was said are [TS]

  there any that you wish to address or [TS]

  speak back to ok so this to me is again [TS]

  it just like the first conversation it's [TS]

  a little bit hard to know even where to [TS]

  start because there's just so many [TS]

  particular things that people want to [TS]

  argue over and I always find the [TS]

  particulars just exhausting and again up [TS]

  with some links in the show notes later [TS]

  but again you will see in some of the [TS]

  conversations that i have had i am often [TS]

  saying how i agree with these [TS]

  constraints and it brings me back to [TS]

  this thing that I said at the very [TS]

  beginning which is that I find the the [TS]

  the conversation around Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel the reason that it creates a big [TS]

  argument almost much more interesting [TS]

  than the particulars of the argument [TS]

  itself it's like a horse's this division [TS]

  and i have just been increasingly [TS]

  interested in the way conversations on [TS]

  the internet unfold and I think this is [TS]

  just to me a perfect example of a thing [TS]

  that I have seen many times where people [TS]

  are talking past each other and it's [TS]

  very hard to get at the root of what is [TS]

  the fundamental disagreement and [TS]

  so-and-so like with the last video that [TS]

  i just put up which was the America box [TS]

  part 2 [TS]

  and some some people want to argue about [TS]

  like were these animals really easier to [TS]

  domesticate them these animals like how [TS]

  do we know we can't know unless we go [TS]

  back in time like you want to get into [TS]

  the specifics of it and I'm always [TS]

  interested in a much more higher level [TS]

  argument like I don't really care if I [TS]

  Jared Diamond got some detail about [TS]

  ancient llamas and their breeding [TS]

  seasons correct like it just it doesn't [TS]

  interest me i am interested in the [TS]

  bigger picture of where they're easier [TS]

  animals to domesticate in some places [TS]

  than others were they randomly [TS]

  distributed across the earth if so [TS]

  that's an interesting phenomenon like [TS]

  I'm not okay just don't care about the [TS]

  details of this exact animal and if [TS]

  Jared Diamond got it right or not and [TS]

  that infuriates some people by always [TS]

  just want to reiterate at this point [TS]

  like don't forget this part internet i [TS]

  am always willing to just grant the [TS]

  historians that they are correct and [TS]

  that jared diamond is wrong on the [TS]

  particulars I just granted it doesn't [TS]

  mean that I'm not like I don't care what [TS]

  is right i'm just saying that I think [TS]

  there is this bigger picture to draw [TS]

  from the book that is separate from like [TS]

  Jared Diamond and who he is and what [TS]

  exactly he gets right and what exactly [TS]

  he misses [TS]

  I just think there's this this bigger [TS]

  picture to be drawn from it [TS]

  I been thinking a little bit about why [TS]

  insights [TS]

  well I haven't been thinking about I've [TS]

  just been thinking about it while you've [TS]

  been talking for the last minute that's [TS]

  fine so that counts that councils [TS]

  thinking about it I've been trying to [TS]

  think about why insights so much passion [TS]

  and I mean the obvious thing to think is [TS]

  that incites passion because people feel [TS]

  there's something racial going on here [TS]

  because of you know this book is about [TS]

  why continent X you know dominated over [TS]

  yeah constant Y and people could I can [TS]

  see how people would associate that with [TS]

  race but it doesn't really seem like [TS]

  racism much of an issue in the book and [TS]

  he'll always emphasizes that it's not i [TS]

  think it must be more like nationalistic [TS]

  people just feel like a bit of pride in [TS]

  their country and don't like to hear [TS]

  things about where they're from a little [TS]

  and i can and i can give you a really [TS]

  good example of that because this is [TS]

  something i always feel when when we [TS]

  talked about guns germs and steel and I [TS]

  realize how ridiculous this is like it's [TS]

  double ridiculous but I remember when [TS]

  when reading about and when you talked [TS]

  about why australia was a country that [TS]

  was never going to war or had very very [TS]

  little chance of becoming the dominant [TS]

  the source of dominance and I was never [TS]

  going to be Australian who took over the [TS]

  world and I remember every time i heard [TS]

  that feeling like a little bit of [TS]

  resentment and like patriotism you're [TS]

  thinking that's not true Australia's [TS]

  awesome and we experience can do [TS]

  anything completely ignoring the fact i [TS]

  am a white European whoo-hoo actually [TS]

  might my team did with ya like you know [TS]

  it was it was it was the way you're [TS]

  going to came and took over strategy and [TS]

  steal when people when people talk down [TS]

  about a straight-set hasn't got the [TS]

  resources and it couldn't have taken [TS]

  over i'm thinking here we could destroy [TS]

  aliens are also liked her but who's the [TS]

  we had said exactly exactly and and that [TS]

  that that that disconnect and that lack [TS]

  of ability to look at the bigger picture [TS]

  even in the back of my brain when I know [TS]

  it's ridiculous i think that's what's [TS]

  going on [TS]

  I think people take things in the book [TS]

  personally when really this is just [TS]

  stuff that happened a long long time ago [TS]

  had nothing to do with any of us really [TS]

  and it's an interesting discussion and [TS]

  how we ended up where we did but i don't [TS]

  think a lot of is massively relevant [TS]

  anymore maybe it maybe it isn't some [TS]

  people think it is but but i think i [TS]

  think that i think this is kind of it's [TS]

  an interesting it's an interesting [TS]

  history to find out how we got him but [TS]

  to me it's not that many steps removed [TS]

  from how did the solar system formed [TS]

  like I'd love to know you know how did [TS]

  the universe that I'd love to know but [TS]

  it doesn't make a difference to when I [TS]

  gotta get my haircut tomorrow right and [TS]

  i think i think the world has gotten to [TS]

  a point now where how come some country [TS]

  X dominated over country why continent x [TS]

  dominated country why thousand years ago [TS]

  ten thousand years ago however many [TS]

  thousand years ago feels like it doesn't [TS]

  matter much anymore [TS]

  yeah this is this is part of the [TS]

  conversation we didn't get to in our [TS]

  first discussion of Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

  but I completely agree that one of the [TS]

  things about Guns Germs and Steel that I [TS]

  find frustrating when people are arguing [TS]

  against it is that they bring it into a [TS]

  modern context and I think that this is [TS]

  a theory that applies up to the moment [TS]

  that you have civilizations from [TS]

  different continents meeting each other [TS]

  but at that moment like Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel suddenly becomes very relevant [TS]

  right it's just a question of what is [TS]

  more likely to get you a civilization [TS]

  that can cross oceans but once once you [TS]

  have people crossing oceans and you have [TS]

  transcontinental trade routes then the [TS]

  geography of the people matters much [TS]

  less like it'sit's a dial that gets [TS]

  turned down over time but I think [TS]

  geography matters much more in the [TS]

  beginning when every single advantage [TS]

  that you can possibly get really matters [TS]

  because it's going to compound over time [TS]

  but then once the whole world is [TS]

  connected this doesn't this doesn't have [TS]

  such an effect anymore so I i agree i [TS]

  don't think it's relevant at all to [TS]

  modern times which is partly why i said [TS]

  last time in the discussion like when [TS]

  you asked it does it does it matter if [TS]

  this is right or wrong and and my answer [TS]

  is like in a modern world no it doesn't [TS]

  matter right because yeah if it's right [TS]

  it doesn't have any predictive power for [TS]

  the next hundred years but i think [TS]

  people still feel like you're dissing [TS]

  their continent like I felt about [TS]

  strategy even though it's not my content [TS]

  even though I'm the european guy like [TS]

  I'm the American here right like yeah [TS]

  and I think that's what people think I [TS]

  feel like you're dissing their animals [TS]

  are you missing their continent and sign [TS]

  of that continent wasn't good enough and [TS]

  yeah you're marsupials ish man there's [TS]

  yeah you can't even take a kangaroo [TS]

  yeah even if you could tame a kangaroo [TS]

  is going to pull the plow know because [TS]

  it's worthless worthless worthless [TS]

  kangaroos and I'm like a star strategies [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  yeah well i'm not i'm not actually super [TS]

  sure how how much it is that people get [TS]

  defensive about their own content that [TS]

  that never occurred to me before because [TS]

  i just i don't have that feeling at all [TS]

  it never would have occurred to me to [TS]

  feel defensive about North and South [TS]

  America being terrible countenance [TS]

  either but anyway a couple of the points [TS]

  that I do just want to touch on really [TS]

  quickly is that i will put the links in [TS]

  the show notes there is a long [TS]

  conversation between me and another [TS]

  reddit user Milosh is reddit name [TS]

  I think this is probably a great example [TS]

  for anybody who really wants to dig into [TS]

  the details of me having an argument [TS]

  with someone else and this argument [TS]

  follows a what I feel like is a very [TS]

  well worn pattern for arguments that i [TS]

  have had about this book with many [TS]

  people from many different backgrounds [TS]

  there is some back-and-forth here but [TS]

  what I think is the interesting thing is [TS]

  that i'm trying to get at what i think [TS]

  is this fundamental difference [TS]

  do people think that there is any [TS]

  predict ability in history pre [TS]

  transcontinental civilizations or not [TS]

  and many historians seem to take the [TS]

  position that there isn't any [TS]

  predictability and it's interesting [TS]

  because they will immediately go to free [TS]

  will and how cou you're disregarding the [TS]

  notion of free well now get on the [TS]

  record here I don't believe in free will [TS]

  I think it is a fairy tale that people [TS]

  tell themselves but in the context of a [TS]

  discussion of history i'm always happy [TS]

  like look let's not argue about free [TS]

  will cause we'll be here forever i will [TS]

  just i will just happily grant to you [TS]

  that Free Will exists and let's take the [TS]

  whole conversation forward from there [TS]

  but so many historians are of the view [TS]

  that because Free Will exists [TS]

  you can't make these generalizations [TS]

  that Guns Germs and Steel wants to make [TS]

  that Eurasia was more likely than other [TS]

  places to take over the world and i [TS]

  think that you can make those [TS]

  generalizations even if Free Will exists [TS]

  and I think that that is at bottom level [TS]

  like the fundamental disagreement [TS]

  that is taking place here and and trying [TS]

  to read through the many many different [TS]

  threads of people who've been arguing [TS]

  about this and people who've written [TS]

  some articles about this like yes [TS]

  everyone i have read all of the articles [TS]

  i have read just about everything about [TS]

  this i think like that is the bottom [TS]

  root level of this is like a question of [TS]

  human agency and my view is even if we [TS]

  grant the existence of free will and [TS]

  human agency that humans are allowed to [TS]

  make their own decisions [TS]

  yeah that it seems crazy to me that some [TS]

  people will argue against the idea that [TS]

  human decisions are constrained by [TS]

  environments that you cannot like so [TS]

  there's an example that i'm always [TS]

  trying to use and I think the [TS]

  conversation going to link to is a good [TS]

  example of of what kind of happens where [TS]

  I want someone to answer a very specific [TS]

  question that i have here is this thing [TS]

  that I wrote in the discussion right I [TS]

  said do you agree with what I view is [TS]

  the counterclaims like do you agree with [TS]

  like my portrayal of of your argument [TS]

  that all continents are equally as [TS]

  likely to produce empire building [TS]

  civilizations like that seems to be the [TS]

  counter-argument if you are saying that [TS]

  there's no predictability you are saying [TS]

  that someone living in the aboriginal [TS]

  desert right or in Antarctic ice sheets [TS]

  that those people are just as likely to [TS]

  be able to come up with empires of [TS]

  someone else and it is so interesting to [TS]

  me that in all of these conversations no [TS]

  matter how many back and forth i have I [TS]

  can never get someone to directly answer [TS]

  that question all I will all I will ever [TS]

  get back as people saying you can't do a [TS]

  historical what if historical what if [TS]

  questions are meaningless so we can't [TS]

  have this discussion that's not a thing [TS]

  that we can say or they'll say oh you [TS]

  are trying to make a statistical [TS]

  argument but we only have a sample size [TS]

  of one earth so we can't make any [TS]

  statistical arguments and that this this [TS]

  is the back-and-forth that happens when [TS]

  i feel like--okay we here at this [TS]

  disagreement is our fundamental [TS]

  well and it is crazy making me because I [TS]

  feel like for the love of God right like [TS]

  if you have a tribe of people living [TS]

  10,000 years ago and what will be [TS]

  Deadhorse Alaska the very northern part [TS]

  of that state there there's no way that [TS]

  those people are going to be able to [TS]

  build an empire like civilization [TS]

  there's just nothing there for them [TS]

  think they're not gonna have agriculture [TS]

  they're not going to be able to develop [TS]

  advanced technology they're not going to [TS]

  conquer the world [TS]

  hmm it just seems it just seems to me [TS]

  like you can't argue against that and if [TS]

  you like if you historian will grant me [TS]

  this one case that people living on a [TS]

  sheet of ice are slightly like even ever [TS]

  so slightly less likely to take over the [TS]

  world [TS]

  then you have granted what I see is the [TS]

  only thing I need to make the rest of [TS]

  this argument there is some statistical [TS]

  money balling of history that you can do [TS]

  on a grand scale over long periods of [TS]

  time but I am trying very hard here not [TS]

  to misrepresent the other side but this [TS]

  is the argument that I come up against [TS]

  where people will not grant that or they [TS]

  will just avoid answering that one part [TS]

  of it and and that is what i think is [TS]

  the fundamental disagreement [TS]

  well that's because they know how much I [TS]

  mean you shouldn't be giving if I answer [TS]

  honestly [TS]

  yeah and that's why I like sometimes I [TS]

  feel like there's a there's like a [TS]

  bizarre i don't know how to put it like [TS]

  I feel like they don't want to get dress [TS]

  this for life like for some other reason [TS]

  yes it's funny that you mentioned the [TS]

  the race stuff before because as well [TS]

  when these conversations happen [TS]

  inevitably forget about many of these [TS]

  arguments many times not under my own [TS]

  name on the internet while of anonymity [TS]

  on the internet is like I could be [TS]

  cgpgrey and argue on some random forum [TS]

  about concerns do you like nobody knows [TS]

  it's me [TS]

  Nevernever everyone's gonna be seeing [TS]

  cgpgrey ghosts on every single yeah for [TS]

  about [TS]

  you never know you never know it's me [TS]

  but so this is one thing comes up all [TS]

  the time which is that the person I'm [TS]

  argue against when I feel like we're [TS]

  digging down to this moment where I'm [TS]

  saying like to you think Aborigines are [TS]

  as likely to take over the world [TS]

  nothing to do with them being Aborigines [TS]

  but doing the fact that they were in the [TS]

  middle of a desert right with terrible [TS]

  animals and no resources accessible at [TS]

  10,000 years ago bc level technologies [TS]

  then there comes a moment where someone [TS]

  is saying something like why are you [TS]

  measuring success as people taking over [TS]

  the world and so this exact thing [TS]

  happened in this conversation where the [TS]

  person i'm arguing again says why is [TS]

  conquering the world the measure of the [TS]

  historical success like shouldn't we be [TS]

  impressed with how people are able to [TS]

  live in incredibly different [TS]

  circumstances in various parts of the [TS]

  world is like that to me seems like I I [TS]

  don't think you're intentionally [TS]

  diverting the conversation but i think [TS]

  this is like the medic evolution [TS]

  this is a thing that comes up all of the [TS]

  time because it ends up turning the [TS]

  conversation into something else like I [TS]

  mean yeah that's it that's not what the [TS]

  books about that's why I'm not [TS]

  discussing right yeah like that looks [TS]

  not about the books not about 10,000 [TS]

  years ago who was the happiest ya books [TS]

  about or most successful it was about [TS]

  her wedding took over the place and [TS]

  killing other people that that is [TS]

  precisely how I feel but there's there's [TS]

  like this weird thing where the [TS]

  conversations do get derailed in this in [TS]

  this way where someone else's like why [TS]

  are you saying Europeans are so great [TS]

  it's like that is the reverse of the [TS]

  conversation that we're having like [TS]

  we're having the exact opposite [TS]

  conversation and i will refuse to be [TS]

  drawn into this because again i don't [TS]

  think it's a diversion but I think like [TS]

  this is just an evolution of how these [TS]

  conversations go like I think there's a [TS]

  meme inside your head in my head that's [TS]

  having some other argument and is taking [TS]

  this little moment to like blossom into [TS]

  the world by jumping into the [TS]

  conversations staff Greg you think about [TS]

  this pretty deeply yeah well I can i I [TS]

  just really think that this encapsulate [TS]

  a kind of thing that I see and lots of [TS]

  other arguments because the other the [TS]

  other point here is that it is very [TS]

  interesting to see [TS]

  in particular the bad history subreddit [TS]

  when people start talking about my [TS]

  argument and again i'll link to other [TS]

  threads about this but it is this idea [TS]

  of of the infuriating totems that i [TS]

  mentioned in the this video will make [TS]

  you angry thing where it is it has been [TS]

  very interesting over the past few weeks [TS]

  to see how things that i have said on [TS]

  the podcast have mutated into the most [TS]

  infuriating versions of themselves that [TS]

  they could possibly be and so forth like [TS]

  for two examples people represent my [TS]

  argument as absolute determinism that i [TS]

  am saying that if you knew enough about [TS]

  the world you could predict everything [TS]

  that was going to happen throughout all [TS]

  of history and it's like I'm not making [TS]

  that argument jared diamond's not making [TS]

  that argument [TS]

  nobody's making that argument like [TS]

  that's a crazy argument to make that is [TS]

  the argument that people want to argue [TS]

  against and it is also just infuriating [TS]

  like it's incredibly wrong and then the [TS]

  other one that I think has been very [TS]

  very interesting to see has actually [TS]

  come out of this podcast so when we [TS]

  discussed Guns Germs and Steel last time [TS]

  I made the remark at the end about how I [TS]

  I overly endorsed Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

  as the history book to rule all history [TS]

  books at the end as a way to like troll [TS]

  people who were clearly going to be [TS]

  getting irritated by the video as they [TS]

  were watching it all the way through the [TS]

  end and that would be like the final [TS]

  capture that would set them off but that [TS]

  has turned into and I've trying to fight [TS]

  against it but I know like this is just [TS]

  a losing battle [TS]

  I have seen people say cgpgrey doesn't [TS]

  believe anything in Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

  and he made that whole video just to [TS]

  piss off historians write this isn't [TS]

  about me like this isn't just I'm saying [TS]

  this is an interesting pattern that i [TS]

  see in the world that happens with [TS]

  conversations right where suddenly [TS]

  people are arguing against like this [TS]

  this infuriating totem version of me [TS]

  it's like boy I would hate that guy to [TS]

  write like if someone who had [TS]

  built a career as a person who is making [TS]

  educational videos then intentionally [TS]

  made something that was false just to [TS]

  screw around with the community that he [TS]

  doesn't like so much like wow what a [TS]

  dick that guy would be right like i [TS]

  would totally agree with that so that [TS]

  the thing that I want to mention here [TS]

  which is like the broader point is [TS]

  especially after having done this [TS]

  podcast and seeing this happen to myself [TS]

  like with conversations like language [TS]

  that we discussed a long time ago in a [TS]

  bunch of other things basically i have [TS]

  come to the point and I think everyone [TS]

  should keep this in mind that if you [TS]

  have only heard about another person's [TS]

  opinions from someone who doesn't like [TS]

  that person you need to be extremely [TS]

  suspicious of that yes that is true but [TS]

  i think it's less obvious than you think [TS]

  it is [TS]

  yeah right yes less obvious than you [TS]

  think it is and I have definitely found [TS]

  a bunch of very interesting cases where [TS]

  like I have intentionally done a thing [TS]

  over the past year much more than I ever [TS]

  used to which is when I keep hearing [TS]

  about how awful someone is like oh let [TS]

  me let me go actually try to figure out [TS]

  a little bit about their viewpoints on [TS]

  topic X or whatever it is sometimes [TS]

  they're still just awful people but many [TS]

  times I have been surprised and go okay [TS]

  well like this person i thought was [TS]

  awful i thought it because I wasn't even [TS]

  aware of it but I had only ever heard of [TS]

  their views in these like vastly [TS]

  distorted ways [TS]

  yeah and it's like okay yeah i thought [TS]

  that this person this imaginary totemic [TS]

  version of this person was absolutely [TS]

  awful but it's like it is just this [TS]

  cartoonish version of their actual views [TS]

  like and that is really interesting to [TS]

  to see firsthand and again like the Guns [TS]

  Germs and Steel thing like again I'm not [TS]

  trying to dismiss all arguments against [TS]

  it as as this totemic thing there's [TS]

  plenty plenty to to criticize [TS]

  legitimately i just think this is to me [TS]

  an interesting example of this [TS]

  phenomenon in action and it's very [TS]

  interesting for it to be happening to [TS]

  myself over a topic that again as we [TS]

  said at the beginning like it doesn't [TS]

  really matter that much if guns germs [TS]

  and steel is right or wrong so like this [TS]

  is all like a fun intellectual game in [TS]

  some ways which I'm sure someone will [TS]

  take out of context but it's just I [TS]

  think it's very interesting to see how [TS]

  conversations unfold and if you really [TS]

  really want to see a back-and-forth in [TS]

  more detail with many thousands of words [TS]

  i will link to a couple of things in the [TS]

  show notes for you to go take a look at [TS]

  four conversations you have this great [TS]

  interest in arguments and debates and [TS]

  the spread of how you to know the sort [TS]

  of stuff you know you've made a video [TS]

  about it and you've been talking about [TS]

  it now it's like it interests you a lot [TS]

  intellectually matter what the debate is [TS]

  about and I sometimes wonder whether or [TS]

  not that comes from just who you are and [TS]

  what your mind is like or it comes from [TS]

  the fact that I feel like you have a [TS]

  very internet existence you know you [TS]

  have this sort of very ready and [TS]

  internet existence and and and that is [TS]

  kind of the hotbed for this kind of [TS]

  place this is where this stuff is at its [TS]

  most overt and wild and I wonder whether [TS]

  that feeds into that has made you more [TS]

  interested in it or you just met [TS]

  naturally into that sort of stuff [TS]

  because you know your guy who likes [TS]

  debating and intellectual discourse or [TS]

  whether or not you spend so much time on [TS]

  read and watch so much people throwing [TS]

  crap at each other that you now have [TS]

  become very interested in the process of [TS]

  crap throwing yeah well the internet [TS]

  definitely takes crap throwing 211 right [TS]

  like there's no there's no disagreement [TS]

  with that and i think the Internet has [TS]

  an effect of magnifying certain features [TS]

  of arguments so that they are more [TS]

  obvious and it's more clear I'm not [TS]

  exactly sure when this started but I [TS]

  mean I can definitely say that one of [TS]

  the most interesting things that comes [TS]

  out of seeing a lot of arguments on the [TS]

  internet is this recognizing of patterns [TS]

  and recognizing how oh this conversation [TS]

  is is that these participants think that [TS]

  they're having this conversation but [TS]

  actually they are an instantiation of [TS]

  this pattern that occurs all the time [TS]

  looking at it like a level above like [TS]

  that it becomes [TS]

  I don't know it becomes different than [TS]

  seeing two people having an argument if [TS]

  it becomes i'm seeing this pattern [TS]

  spread through the world and i think one [TS]

  of the best ways to do this is is [TS]

  actually like so like I read it like [TS]

  change my view which has a lot of people [TS]

  just arguing and debating about whatever [TS]

  pick a topic on there like look at what [TS]

  people are discussing and pick something [TS]

  that you just don't have any interest in [TS]

  that you don't like you haven't decided [TS]

  what side you're on em and when you [TS]

  watch people argue with things that you [TS]

  are not a part of it becomes much more [TS]

  clear like oh there's some kind of [TS]

  metastructure here there's something [TS]

  that is not specific to this argument [TS]

  that is still happening and that is [TS]

  where it is most clear where you can see [TS]

  this thing where people argue past each [TS]

  other when you don't have a dog in the [TS]

  fight it becomes much more obvious when [TS]

  like Oh person on side a you're arguing [TS]

  against an imaginary version of person [TS]

  on side B and person on side B you're [TS]

  doing the same thing like you two are [TS]

  not actually arguing against each other [TS]

  or you can have the case where which I [TS]

  feels a bit like the Guns Germs and [TS]

  Steel thing was like I am a person who [TS]

  is conceding 99% of the ground in this [TS]

  argument but the other person constantly [TS]

  think that we have much more of a [TS]

  disagreement that we actually do and and [TS]

  it's I think it basically long story [TS]

  short i think you're right i think that [TS]

  being on the internet and being a very [TS]

  internet e person magnifies a certain [TS]

  interest that i have in this already and [TS]

  it's definitely something that has been [TS]

  has been growing over the past year [TS]

  argue about it in the comments people if [TS]

  you lost all your episodes of hello [TS]

  internet from your computer tomorrow [TS]

  well that'll be okay you could download [TS]

  them again from the hello internet [TS]

  website or perhaps somewhere like I [TS]

  chains but whatever your personal data [TS]

  disappeared tomorrow your photos private [TS]

  information that novel you've been [TS]

  working on for the last eight years [TS]

  where would you go what would you do [TS]

  maybe anti-stress maybe [TS]

  you remember to back them up to external [TS]

  hard drive but that was six months ago [TS]

  now wasn't always an eight months ago [TS]

  when did you last backup or maybe the [TS]

  burglars who took your computer also [TS]

  took your hard drives now what we'll [TS]

  never fear [TS]

  backblaze here and because you sign up [TS]

  for backblaze your computer was silently [TS]

  backing up all your files every day to [TS]

  the backplate servers and there it sits [TS]

  safely along with the 150 petabytes of [TS]

  other data backed up by people who were [TS]

  just as smart as you so now you can [TS]

  simply download it all back to your new [TS]

  computer or you can contact baptized and [TS]

  now physically post your hard drive with [TS]

  all the data on it [TS]

  crisis averted now back place isn't just [TS]

  great for these major catastrophes you [TS]

  can also retrieve single files with just [TS]

  a few clicks you can even get your files [TS]

  from a really cool app on your phone [TS]

  this is a super service I use it myself [TS]

  really happily and I recommend it to you [TS]

  all back place was founded by X Apple [TS]

  engineers and it will run natively on [TS]

  your mac and all your pace eh it's just [TS]

  five dollars a month for the incredible [TS]

  piece of mind you get unlimited [TS]

  unthreatened backup if you'd like to [TS]

  give them a try go to back blinds.com / [TS]

  hello internet there you can go on for a [TS]

  risk free no credit card required trial [TS]

  I think once you've seen an action it [TS]

  will probably sell you on the whole [TS]

  thing that address again [TS]

  backblaze dot-com / hello Internet the / [TS]

  hello internet will let them know you [TS]

  came from here on the podcast and as [TS]

  always our thanks to back plays for [TS]

  supporting the show so as we record but [TS]

  what I should be doing right now is [TS]

  packing did this happen before when you [TS]

  were supposed to be packing that somehow [TS]

  we're recording a show with me instead i [TS]

  am going on a holiday briefly to India [TS]

  oh and then and then the main the main [TS]

  body of the holiday is in Bhutan which [TS]

  is a place I've never been to before and [TS]

  I'm very excited about visiting time [TS]

  and quickly click click you must have a [TS]

  fight you must vaguely remember is you [TS]

  always get a very clear i like batons [TS]

  near indonesia no I wouldn't say that [TS]

  problem is i know they have the dragon [TS]

  flag like that's the thing that leaves [TS]

  into my head but I have nowhere idea in [TS]

  the world [TS]

  oh I'm confusing them with confusing it [TS]

  with brunei that's what I'm thinking out [TS]

  sorry [TS]

  entire nations of fruit and fruit [TS]

  I'm sorry to other Tim intimidate those [TS]

  who live there [TS]

  I can't speak for bringing our but I [TS]

  would be very surprised if we have many [TS]

  listeners in Bhutan it's bit of a [TS]

  forbidden kingdom and technology has [TS]

  only sort of just started coming to it [TS]

  so what are you talking about [TS]

  we mean technologies only just started [TS]

  coming to it what what what kind of [TS]

  apocalypse happened there [TS]

  no it's just one of these really sort of [TS]

  you know forbidden sheltered places his [TS]

  reputation for that so what do you mean [TS]

  by the word forbidden you always hear [TS]

  the word forbidden used when you get [TS]

  people talking about bhutan because [TS]

  they're like they don't think many [TS]

  people in and things like that it's like [TS]

  a forbidden kingdom the word forbidden [TS]

  shows up once on the wikipedia page [TS]

  saying that proselytism is forbidden by [TS]

  a royal government decision in Baton [TS]

  well they again that the day that I [TS]

  don't think that's backing up your case [TS]

  1 match for bitter flame [TS]

  nope they're famous for forbidding that [TS]

  you're forbidding proselytism here we go [TS]

  here's a blog he's a wall street journal [TS]

  block with I say forbidden kingdom opens [TS]

  up a little bit like I don't care what [TS]

  you say i'm calling it forbidden because [TS]

  it sounds awesome haha I'm sorry Brady I [TS]

  didn't mean to try to take away your [TS]

  forbidden kingdom that you're going to [TS]

  visit in him the myth mystery of the [TS]

  east and and one of the one of the [TS]

  things that really got me interested in [TS]

  going there there is a mountain there [TS]

  which is the highest mountain in the [TS]

  world that has not been summited and i [TS]

  can't i can't say it's like ganga poon [TS]

  some are you going to summit that [TS]

  mountain Brady i'm not going to so much [TS]

  i just want to see it out with much less [TS]

  interesting obviously i'm not going to [TS]

  summarize seriously don't you haven't [TS]

  you been up mount mount everest happened [TS]

  regarding what do you know why ganga [TS]

  pues name has not been submitted great [TS]

  obviously not i'll tell you why because [TS]

  it's forbidden [TS]

  it is not you are not know you are not [TS]

  allowed to climb up the government of [TS]

  Bhutan has banned the climbing of [TS]

  mountains over 6,000 meters and ganga [TS]

  prints are is 7507 teenagers high which [TS]

  is very high so that's that's not [TS]

  allowed to decline it is a forbidden [TS]

  mountain I would say it's prohibited [TS]

  that too but the prohibited kingdom [TS]

  doesn't sound quite as good as the [TS]

  forbidden kingdom [TS]

  not even close though so I depending on [TS]

  the weather i hope to catch a glimpse of [TS]

  that mountain from a distance [TS]

  otherwise otherwise the clouds may [TS]

  forbid my viewing of it as well they may [TS]

  block your viewing of it so i'm hoping [TS]

  to get a look at it and I'm really [TS]

  looking forward to Bhutan or i will [TS]

  report back to the hello Internet nation [TS]

  upon my return but going there doesn't [TS]

  involve me going to india twice i have [TS]

  to stop in india on the way we're going [TS]

  to go and see the Taj Mahal was no other [TS]

  receiver Cena and then we have to stay [TS]

  in India when we come back [TS]

  this brings me to one of my favorite [TS]

  topics Indian vases [TS]

  yes I I hear that the Indian government [TS]

  bureaucracy is amazing [TS]

  well last time I went to India I had a [TS]

  real mon on the podcast because i had to [TS]

  go all the way to Birmingham which is a [TS]

  city a few hours from where i am and [TS]

  feel that all these forms in person and [TS]

  since then [TS]

  india has introduced this electronic [TS]

  these are system and everyone tweeted me [TS]

  an emailed me and said I already know [TS]

  this is coming in you know what do you [TS]

  think about it and I couldn't tell [TS]

  people what I thought about it because I [TS]

  hadn't done i have now done and I have [TS]

  to take my hat off to the indian [TS]

  government I didn't think it would be [TS]

  possible to replicate the terrible [TS]

  terrible terrible experience of visa [TS]

  application in person in the online [TS]

  format but they've done it for real they [TS]

  they have managed to transfer the hard [TS]

  egg disappointment an impossibility of [TS]

  their visa system very effectively onto [TS]

  the internet that sounds amazing the [TS]

  only thing that sleeping into my head is [TS]

  on my list of games to play it is a game [TS]

  called papers please and it is a game [TS]

  where you just look through documents as [TS]

  a government [TS]

  employee like it has a paperwork [TS]

  replicator and so I like this idea that [TS]

  someone in the Indian government like [TS]

  it's really terrible to apply to our [TS]

  faces in person how can we capture the [TS]

  feeling of that and put it onto the [TS]

  internet they have they have captured [TS]

  the feeling and I you should add to your [TS]

  list of games to play applying for an [TS]

  indian visa just for the fun of it that [TS]

  would be the only reason to go to India [TS]

  I'm going to ignore just the bad design [TS]

  and an intuitive layout and just the [TS]

  general unpleasantness of that because [TS]

  you know that's a matter of taste and [TS]

  maybe culturally Indian webpages are [TS]

  different and finally to I need to deal [TS]

  with that i don't know i don't think so [TS]

  but ok sure go ahead but having sort of [TS]

  arbitrary red asterisks is next to the [TS]

  things that have to be filled out and [TS]

  not filled out and then changing your [TS]

  mind and saying you've got to go and [TS]

  fill that out even though it didn't have [TS]

  an Asterix that I had whatever whatever [TS]

  yeah i'm sure this is that is the [TS]

  cultural difference but the level of [TS]

  detail they want to go to this country [TS]

  to continues to amaze me and okay i [TS]

  guess like I was able to recollect the [TS]

  the intimate birth details of my parents [TS]

  eventually then being asked to list [TS]

  every city I've ever been to in india is [TS]

  when I've been there a few times now is [TS]

  not it's not easy being asked the visa [TS]

  number and the address of the last place [TS]

  i stayed in when I was in India was also [TS]

  quite a challenge digging up that [TS]

  information but my favorite was being [TS]

  required to list all the countries i [TS]

  have visited in the last 10 years [TS]

  oh la la [TS]

  I know like I know like I'm an old guy [TS]

  so I've tried i travel a bit now but [TS]

  like that's a long list and like I can't [TS]

  do it I travel as little as possible but [TS]

  i would have a hell of a hard time [TS]

  coming up with all the places i have [TS]

  been in the last 10 years and I was just [TS]

  the bank the other day actually having [TS]

  quite a good bureaucratic experience for [TS]

  once but they needed to know the address [TS]

  of the house I lived in two houses ago [TS]

  let's say I can't do that either now [TS]

  this is within the past five years and [TS]

  was like I have [TS]

  I got nothing right there's nothing in [TS]

  my head about this look can you give us [TS]

  the first letter of the postcode now i [TS]

  have i have no idea that I just I text [TS]

  my wife whenever that happens I'll be in [TS]

  a bank saying what was the address of [TS]

  that place we lived in Nottingham that [TS]

  third place like she's amazing for that [TS]

  but I got no idea [TS]

  so anyway and excruciating amount of [TS]

  detail was required now I understand [TS]

  they're pretty they're pretty delicate [TS]

  about people that have connections with [TS]

  Pakistan and if i just said have you [TS]

  ever been to Pakistan or have you got [TS]

  any relatives who are from pakistan i [TS]

  would understand there are there issues [TS]

  there [TS]

  uh-huh but but this was this was this [TS]

  was an ordeal and it was worsened by the [TS]

  fact i had to apply for me and I was I [TS]

  volunteered to do my wife as well so i [TS]

  had to go through it twice but no i [TS]

  didn't have to go through it twice [TS]

  I didn't have to go through it twice [TS]

  because he is the other catch you can [TS]

  only do one entry and we are going into [TS]

  India on the way to Bhutan and then [TS]

  we're coming into india again on the way [TS]

  back like a week and a half later that [TS]

  requires a whole separate visa and you [TS]

  have to go through the whole multi-page [TS]

  website again and do a whole thing again [TS]

  but also you can only do it in this kind [TS]

  of window one month out from when you go [TS]

  so I filled out the form not knowing I [TS]

  was going to have this problem having to [TS]

  do it twice i filled out the form you [TS]

  filled out the thing when went through [TS]

  the house separate thing you have to [TS]

  then do to pay the sixty dollars to some [TS]

  other Bank which never works and takes [TS]

  about eight goes to make work over a [TS]

  series of days but then I found out okay [TS]

  you've got your visa but that's only [TS]

  going to get you in once you now have to [TS]

  wait for the other window to open for [TS]

  your other visa to go into India when [TS]

  you coming back [TS]

  they make it so hard to get into that [TS]

  country and pulling up a map here right [TS]

  mm why are you going to India like you [TS]

  just stopping over on your way to Bhutan [TS]

  right why don't you just give India the [TS]

  middle finger and just just stop in [TS]

  Pakistan get a connecting flight in [TS]

  pakistan i did for rizzle abad or [TS]

  something I don't know I've never been [TS]

  to Pakistan and I i can imagine applying [TS]

  for visas there is probably also not the [TS]

  world's easiest experiences you will [TS]

  find all that next over its Afghanistan [TS]

  right I'm sure that we can use that [TS]

  connecting flight in the cool like I'm [TS]

  just I'm trying to help you here because [TS]

  okay if I know fine let's go we'll go a [TS]

  little bit more west we can get a [TS]

  connecting flight out of Iran is that is [TS]

  that work for you can begin connecting [TS]

  flight out of around this is not an easy [TS]

  part of the world to travel to visit but [TS]

  I have to I have to say my wife loves [TS]

  india and we both want to see the Taj [TS]

  Mahal so that is why we're guy and I'm [TS]

  sure will be lovely and all of these [TS]

  problems with the visa will be will be [TS]

  long forgotten will they though I feel [TS]

  like this kind of stuff sticks in your [TS]

  craw for a long time i have had problems [TS]

  with these as every time I've ever gone [TS]

  to India [TS]

  mhm and some of them have involved mercy [TS]

  missions in the middle of the night to [TS]

  go and get some guy to unlock the [TS]

  embassy for meeting to look to sign some [TS]

  document [TS]

  well i think i'm on my long list of [TS]

  reasons never to go to India this is [TS]

  just another one don't say that because [TS]

  we have like we have lots of business in [TS]

  India and there they really could eat my [TS]

  own i'm sure they are good emailing like [TS]

  sorry yeah I'm never going to your [TS]

  country like I have no interest in going [TS]

  your visa sounds like a real pain in the [TS]

  butt I swear like if I saw it was like [TS]

  if I had some some even mild interest [TS]

  into going to india and I load up a visa [TS]

  page and I could see the bottom of the [TS]

  page it said you know click Next for [TS]

  Paige to that would be enough to totally [TS]

  defeat me like African i'm not going to [TS]

  India like I mean you know me gray i'm [TS]

  always trying to get you to go places [TS]

  and do things that I've done because [TS]

  that's just what I don't know I was [TS]

  trying to get you to go into pole but [TS]

  i'm not selling you in india yet i I'm [TS]

  I'm yeah that's character because that I [TS]

  have to get them to fall experience and [TS]

  it's just I yeah when we get are getting [TS]

  flight through let's see [TS]

  yeah we get our connecting flight [TS]

  through Baghdad to depaul at napo's easy [TS]

  to get into the forbidden kingdom of [TS]

  Bhutan I can't tell you because the [TS]

  travel agent had to do those vases it is [TS]

  so forbidden that I couldn't even do the [TS]

  visa application that's how forbidden it [TS]

  is i don't even know what was involved [TS]

  I don't know where they were paper bags [TS]

  exchange in the dead of night or [TS]

  mysterious magic words have to be spoken [TS]

  but yeah I don't even know what it was [TS]

  required I've just got your bribes paid [TS]

  bribes paid that's the thing [TS]

  but yes so i'm not going to india and [TS]

  email Brady but sometimes I defend [TS]

  bureaucracies because I think Roxy's [TS]

  have a bad rap my favorite experience [TS]

  with the bureaucracy ever was when i was [TS]

  getting qualified to be a teacher here [TS]

  in the UK i am a foreigner I'm an [TS]

  immigrant in the UK and so at one point [TS]

  I was talking with my advisor and she [TS]

  was telling me oh we have to get you [TS]

  certified that you can speak English [TS]

  ok i am talking to you right now is this [TS]

  is this not good enough [TS]

  she goes no everyone who is from outside [TS]

  the UK you have to bring to me a piece [TS]

  of paper that says that you are fluent [TS]

  in English and so I had to book an exam [TS]

  to go to this building to take it to [TS]

  take a test to prove that I could speak [TS]

  English and and what I think was going [TS]

  to happen i thought i'm going to be okay [TS]

  so i'm going to get into like a room [TS]

  with some dude and it's like oh haha [TS]

  we'll have a fun chuckle over this won't [TS]

  we write like any American speak English [TS]

  who knows [TS]

  nope the only way that the test just [TS]

  nope the only way that the test just [TS]

  see if I was conversing in English [TS]

  enough to teach in a UK school was [TS]

  entirely an on-screen computer test that [TS]

  was multiple choice I had to sit there [TS]

  for like an hour answering a bunch of [TS]

  questions in English and then they gave [TS]

  me a piece of paper which said [TS]

  congratulations you passed you can [TS]

  squirt speak english and then i gave my [TS]

  advisor back at the university that [TS]

  piece of paper and in front of me she [TS]

  could take a little box on her form that [TS]

  said yes this person speaks english [TS]

  great that sounds like your dream come [TS]

  true you didn't have to interact with a [TS]

  person just a screen like you I would've [TS]

  thought you'd be quite grateful for that [TS]

  i lost a whole afternoon of my life [TS]

  Brady a whole afternoon of my life never [TS]

  never gotten back I couldn't I couldn't [TS]

  retrieve that afternoon but that to me [TS]

  was like the apex apex of what a [TS]

  bureaucracy was because it wasn't even [TS]

  that like oh my advisor then has to pass [TS]

  off this piece of paper to someone else [TS]

  who doesn't know me is like no no just [TS]

  within her system [TS]

  she's not going to take this box until [TS]

  she has the piece of paper even though [TS]

  she knows that I speak English like can [TS]

  you just pretend that you have the piece [TS]

  of paper is anyone ever going to check [TS]

  this now [TS]

  now we've gotta gotta crank the gears of [TS]

  the Machine dehumanizing us all what [TS]

  sort of questions we asked you remember [TS]

  much about the test i don't remember [TS]

  anything about it except a vague feeling [TS]

  of being slightly nervous like I was [TS]

  gonna actually fail this test about can [TS]

  I speak English [TS]

  did you have to speak answers or would [TS]

  you just touch screen like it would be [TS]

  which one of these words is cloud or [TS]

  something or did you have to say things [TS]

  i could have been totally mute there was [TS]

  nobody there i didn't have to speak [TS]

  anything i was just clicking buttons on [TS]

  the screen so to prove that you can [TS]

  speak English you didn't actually have [TS]

  to speak you could have had no tongue [TS]

  and passed that test that's that's [TS]

  entirely correct yes who is only mildly [TS]

  mildly less frustrating than the test i [TS]

  also had to take to prove that I could [TS]

  do grade-school math my bachelor's in [TS]

  physics was apparently not accepted by [TS]

  the University either that was not okay [TS]

  even though it was also accepted into [TS]

  the program to become a [TS]

  physics teacher no I also as a foreigner [TS]

  had to take a test that proved that I [TS]

  could do multiplication up to and [TS]

  including numbers as large as 12 do you [TS]

  know i want to say i want to say the [TS]

  process you have to go through to become [TS]

  a schoolteacher in India please list [TS]

  your class schedule for all schools you [TS]

  have been to for the past 20 years have [TS]

  you not wait you're celebrating no okay [TS]

  Matt so like I let you slide last week [TS]

  but i think i need to have like a friend [TS]

  intervention here because how long has [TS]

  it been since you weighed yourself six [TS]

  months now it's been a long time [TS]

  yeah i mean you can do an intervention i [TS]

  feel that maybe i need to do an [TS]

  intervention on you and realized you [TS]

  know I feel like saying she he's just [TS]

  not that into it [TS]

  just let me like if you truly love a [TS]

  biweekly way and you let it go and if if [TS]

  it Richard if it returns to you it was [TS]

  truly yours [TS]

  so you've got to let me go and if i [TS]

  start weighing myself again then I'm [TS]

  truly yours [TS]

  see here's the thing here's the thing [TS]

  Brady yeah I i know this about you write [TS]

  it is it is the very fact that I I'm [TS]

  putting this bi weekly weigh-in in here [TS]

  and i'm trying to bring it up again and [TS]

  I'm trying to put you on the hook again [TS]

  I think that you being on the hook for [TS]

  your health [TS]

  I think this is a good thing for you I I [TS]

  want you on the hook it but if you truly [TS]

  knew me you would know making me do a [TS]

  rigid thing every two weeks is not how I [TS]

  work [TS]

  I don't care if it's exactly every two [TS]

  weeks like whatever I just don't want to [TS]

  let you try to have this just slide away [TS]

  like you have been doing from the very [TS]

  beginning since we haven't started [TS]

  that's right i always liked got an [TS]

  evolutionary way you've gotta let me go [TS]

  free but see I when you say that all i [TS]

  hear is that you you just want to drink [TS]

  your diet Pepsi's unmolested that's [TS]

  that's what you want to do diet pepsi is [TS]

  a good they got no calories the thing [TS]

  the thing is the thing is I've got to [TS]

  want to do it [TS]

  I can't do it because you want me to do [TS]

  who it's going to come from within [TS]

  well of course of course how do we get [TS]

  you to want to do it from within [TS]

  how do we inspire you ready I don't know [TS]

  but I don't think it's gonna happen in [TS]

  the next 10 minutes so what are these [TS]

  points you want to cover the reason why [TS]

  I was brought up the pie weekly weigh-in [TS]

  this week is I thought and I just let it [TS]

  slide last week because I knew last week [TS]

  I wasn't even sure I I me but I don't [TS]

  mind the bye week away and but to me [TS]

  it's not a biweekly way and it's like [TS]

  health corner right but let's be cool if [TS]

  I was God is something like a meta joke [TS]

  now right 55 yeah way although it does [TS]

  but it does pose the question the [TS]

  elephant in the room is is bi-weekly [TS]

  twice a week or fortnightly we're not [TS]

  know we don't we're not getting [TS]

  distracted right that's that's mimetic [TS]

  warfare right there hitters we're [TS]

  getting there and if you think getting [TS]

  students students controversial you [TS]

  tried talking about whether something's [TS]

  bi weekly or fortnightly so okay so so [TS]

  here's why here's why I thought this [TS]

  would be a nice gentle point of reentry [TS]

  for the bi weekly weigh-in because last [TS]

  time I was very happy to be under 200 [TS]

  pounds but this time i am back over 200 [TS]

  pounds eyerly entirely through my own [TS]

  actions and my own fault i weighed [TS]

  myself this morning and I am 201 pounds [TS]

  but I was Milo was 198 so I am up three [TS]

  pounds from my bottoming out there but [TS]

  so I thought this was this is a great [TS]

  time to again just reiterate reiterate [TS]

  my fundamental idea here that it's it's [TS]

  not about succeeding every single time [TS]

  that the skill is about getting back on [TS]

  the wagon and about [TS]

  yeah being able to constantly recommit [TS]

  yourself to the thing that you are [TS]

  trying to achieve and so when I saw that [TS]

  I was over 200 pounds i was a not [TS]

  entirely surprised for reasons that we [TS]

  will mention shortly but be I thought [TS]

  okay it's okay like this is not some [TS]

  failure i was i was genuinely hoping [TS]

  that after getting back down under 200 I [TS]

  like I will never be over 200 again but [TS]

  like that that to me is exactly the [TS]

  wrong kind of thing to think that right [TS]

  because then it's like oh there's only [TS]

  one way to fail here [TS]

  where is the correct way to think about [TS]

  this stuff is like no no you just like [TS]

  you didn't follow the system and now you [TS]

  just need to get back on with the system [TS]

  so that's that's the point here I [TS]

  thought it would be an excellent time to [TS]

  bring you back on board but maybe but [TS]

  maybe not so much [TS]

  I mean what I mean what you say is true [TS]

  grades 4 and it's motivation to hear so [TS]

  you are doing make good by saying I'm a [TS]

  motivational speaker [TS]

  I tell you what a lot of people tell you [TS]

  what a lot of people have taken [TS]

  inspiration from and and like I'm not [TS]

  saying people should do this but I found [TS]

  it really touching how many people have [TS]

  really started health tips because of [TS]

  those t-shirts you thought of the [TS]

  finished Ron t-shirt so many people of [TS]

  like posted pictures or send an email [TS]

  saying I've got one that just made me [TS]

  decide to get really healthy and they [TS]

  really they're doing well I felt a bit [TS]

  that way when i first got it to be [TS]

  honest like I stopped wearing all the [TS]

  time and going for runs and I've stopped [TS]

  a bit just labor and but it's funny how [TS]

  something so that little in Trivial can [TS]

  be the thing that can give you a little [TS]

  little kick my guess is it's partly the [TS]

  fact that they are people who are [TS]

  listening to the podcast as well I'd [TS]

  like the podcast was out on a somewhat [TS]

  regular basis so yes I do like seeing [TS]

  people getting their their t-shirts but [TS]

  the the the messages that i have seen so [TS]

  far that I definitely like the best are [TS]

  people who have over a long as period of [TS]

  time lost some weight like I will never [TS]

  grow tired of those and I think maybe [TS]

  just the fact that this t-shirt is also [TS]

  connected to a podcast that they [TS]

  listened to on a regular basis like [TS]

  maybe that's just the thing that kind of [TS]

  put someone over the edge [TS]

  yeah you know whatever it is it's it's a [TS]

  good thing but you know you're here [TS]

  every two weeks you hurry to explaining [TS]

  I'm here for two weeks [TS]

  I'm here bi-weekly yeah you're here [TS]

  vibrantly that's right that's what you [TS]

  re mi re mi hear fortnightly no no no no [TS]

  not doing that we're not doing that i [TS]

  will have to confess when my problem is [TS]

  and why I'm back over 200 pounds i will [TS]

  start by saying and having excuses right [TS]

  so i was doing animating for the last [TS]

  video that came out and add a meeting [TS]

  has always been my danger zone because [TS]

  1i just don't get any sleep at all and [TS]

  then too I just eat garbage [TS]

  all the time while animating and three I [TS]

  don't move [TS]

  looks like three solid days of just the [TS]

  worst I could possibly be [TS]

  I was really proud of myself this time [TS]

  because i didn't stay up all night like [TS]

  I normally do and so ended up dragging [TS]

  out the animation / many more days i [TS]

  think it took me five days to animate [TS]

  and setup just the usual two or three so [TS]

  okay so like baby steps baby steps but i [TS]

  still did wasn't exercising and I was [TS]

  also just eating a bunch of garbage but [TS]

  chief among them was popcorn which is [TS]

  just that's that's [TS]

  the black hole of danger for me like [TS]

  can't get near the popcorn because you [TS]

  will eat all of it in the world I think [TS]

  there's no amount of popcorn that is [TS]

  eating how can that be bad i mean [TS]

  popcorn is just corn which is healthy [TS]

  because it's like you know vegetable II [TS]

  and its air its air blown into corn that [TS]

  sounds like the healthiest food in the [TS]

  world [TS]

  okay listen listen this is going to get [TS]

  a little personal though many years ago [TS]

  I when I listen to this american life [TS]

  before i had to give it up because i [TS]

  just found a too tedious and yeah I just [TS]

  couldn't deal with this american life [TS]

  but they did an episode which was about [TS]

  people who had food allergies but that [TS]

  who could but that couldn't give up the [TS]

  food so they be people who would like [TS]

  they would have something like shrimp [TS]

  that they just totally loved but they [TS]

  would have horrific allergic reactions [TS]

  to it so they would just EpiPen [TS]

  themselves while having shrimp right or [TS]

  maybe just accept the fact that they [TS]

  were going to be deeply uncomfortable [TS]

  for a long time and I remember listening [TS]

  to that shown thinking how can anyone [TS]

  possibly be like that like what are [TS]

  these idiots doing eating these foods [TS]

  that in some cases just totally endanger [TS]

  their lives shrimp and prawns is [TS]

  probably the third that would make me [TS]

  tell you that too so it's funny chose [TS]

  that example but anyway yes [TS]

  so here's here's a little here's a [TS]

  little lesson that I have learned from [TS]

  the low-carb diet which is that under a [TS]

  certain point of carbs i have discovered [TS]

  that you can basically give yourself [TS]

  allergies to carbs after a long enough [TS]

  period of time first discovered this [TS]

  with milk which I had a really bad [TS]

  reaction to after not drinking milk for [TS]

  a very long time but popcorn is the [TS]

  absolute worst and I haven't discussed [TS]

  the time vodcasts before but eventually [TS]

  picked up a pattern after say going to [TS]

  the Martian and Everest and star wars [TS]

  and a couple of movies at home sometimes [TS]

  and now this last binge of animating [TS]

  that if I have popcorn in the evening I [TS]

  better not have to go anywhere the neck [TS]

  stay i'm gonna stay real close to the [TS]

  house as it i'm never going to leave the [TS]

  house [TS]

  popcorn but it doesn't stop your hating [TS]

  it apparently this is not unusual for [TS]

  people who go on a really low carb diet [TS]

  and that the like the shells in popcorn [TS]

  that the they can give you really pace [TS]

  basically like a horrific internal [TS]

  reaction in your intestines if you go on [TS]

  a really low carb diet but basically now [TS]

  is Big Sight delicate like this though [TS]

  maybe maybe there's there's no polite [TS]

  way to say it but it's like man it's a [TS]

  bad decision but nonetheless nonetheless [TS]

  I find myself in this situation where [TS]

  now i am one of those idiots who was on [TS]

  this american life a long time ago where [TS]

  it's like I'm looking at a bowl of [TS]

  popcorn and thinking well you know [TS]

  you're not just going to eat one of [TS]

  these you're gonna be like three of [TS]

  these and then you know you know if you [TS]

  have anything scheduled for tomorrow for [TS]

  the whole day tomorrow [TS]

  you're just gonna have to cancel it [TS]

  right like yeah okay I understand that [TS]

  and go right ankle riches and went right [TS]

  ahead with this and the following day [TS]

  while i am in great discomfort and in [TS]

  some time in some cases quite serious [TS]

  pain i'm still thinking worth it right [TS]

  it was children with I'm gonna do this [TS]

  again I'm gonna pay this price I tell [TS]

  you I I think you're the one that needs [TS]

  an intervention not may this episode of [TS]

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  I'd noticed that you were video gaming [TS]

  on Twitter or whatever it's called the [TS]

  other day and everyone was everyone was [TS]

  telling me on Twitter Brady why you [TS]

  there watching gray play video games [TS]

  which I don't feel like I need to answer [TS]

  that question but better anyway what do [TS]

  you mean am I didn't you want to watch [TS]

  me play video games room and I I mean I [TS]

  know I know it's a huge huge thing but [TS]

  and it makes me feel so old to say it [TS]

  but the fact that people sit and watch [TS]

  other people play games for hours is [TS]

  quite the thing and but it did make me [TS]

  contact you this we can say we should [TS]

  talk about video games the first idea I [TS]

  had was I want to sort of get my head [TS]

  around why I feel like I've grown out of [TS]

  games and sort of and throw that issue [TS]

  around a bit because that's the main [TS]

  thing I want to talk about which i knows [TS]

  interesting in itself [TS]

  but then as I was thinking about it I [TS]

  felt like to give it some context we [TS]

  should probably talk a little bit about [TS]

  our sort of our history with with games [TS]

  and gaming like you know how it started [TS]

  for us and how we got to the point where [TS]

  at now and sort of thinking about that [TS]

  over the last few hours today has just [TS]

  got me so excited about the disclosure [TS]

  of games in my history with games that's [TS]

  what I want to talk about but I know [TS]

  that's not what you want to talk about [TS]

  yeah this is yeah this is your [TS]

  relationship with video games i have a [TS]

  hard time have a hard time understanding [TS]

  and I had been quite surprised by your [TS]

  childlike giddiness as you've been [TS]

  sending messages about your busy [TS]

  reminiscing over over past game so I'm [TS]

  not the guy i have a very hard time [TS]

  understanding your relationship with [TS]

  video games at all so you need to [TS]

  explain to me why are we calling the [TS]

  video games that the right term is that [TS]

  like what old people call them or is [TS]

  that ok I'm saying video games talking [TS]

  to you I'm almost certainly just going [TS]

  to slip into games as the conversation [TS]

  goes on era [TS]

  how do you differentiate between board [TS]

  games this is a whole other conversation [TS]

  don't try to don't try to try to move [TS]

  off dragged here i just like i can just [TS]

  try to tell me what your relationship is [TS]

  because i don't understand at all [TS]

  because it seems to me like adult you [TS]

  this is going to be too strong of a word [TS]

  but adult you almost had some kind of [TS]

  disdain for games or like like it just [TS]

  it's it's a funny thing when video games [TS]

  come up between us and I just don't know [TS]

  where you stand [TS]

  I know that that is not a fair [TS]

  characterization i would say it is more [TS]

  indifference em but an appreciation for [TS]

  how much I used to love her man a kind [TS]

  of almost confusion as to why don't any [TS]

  more like my kind of almost want to get [TS]

  back into them like sometimes I see like [TS]

  a cup of the games your player you tell [TS]

  me about them or icy promotions for new [TS]

  games that are out and I think that [TS]

  looks really cool like I wish I had that [TS]

  when I was young I think I'd really [TS]

  enjoy playing that and yet i cannot i [TS]

  cannot get better I can't get into it [TS]

  like I i don't have the desire and I [TS]

  don't know where it went [TS]

  is 11 and that's why i think i have this [TS]

  clich├ęd view that young people are into [TS]

  gay [TS]

  missing you go out of them right and no [TS]

  people are going to sew all the [TS]

  statistics show that the average gamers [TS]

  35 years old and that sort of stuff but [TS]

  I actually i'm not convinced by that and [TS]

  if it is true why is it so disconnected [TS]

  with the circles I movie doesn't say [TS]

  something about my friends and the world [TS]

  movie and only does say something about [TS]

  your friends let's just get this head [TS]

  away like immediately you and you're [TS]

  gonna argue cancers but you are moving [TS]

  in above average least successful [TS]

  circles the people that you are talking [TS]

  to you are compared to the average [TS]

  person much more successful in their [TS]

  fields are not even just financially [TS]

  successful but just successful in a in a [TS]

  broad sense [TS]

  Ron and I i think that there's [TS]

  definitely going to be an anti [TS]

  correlation there between someone who is [TS]

  unusually successful and video game [TS]

  playing basically you're saying i love [TS]

  the paper i spent time with just haven't [TS]

  got time to play games [TS]

  yeah pretty much right like if you are [TS]

  going to be successful in any sense of [TS]

  the word [TS]

  you need more time than the average [TS]

  person does to do stuff it's it's [TS]

  interesting cause I in preparation for [TS]

  watching this video I i rewatched your [TS]

  video we mentioned recently the [TS]

  professor's react to 2048 video because [TS]

  i want you i want to kind of bring it [TS]

  bring fresh in the mind and I wasn't [TS]

  surprised there that most of the [TS]

  professors as an example you could see [TS]

  that they just they weren't so [TS]

  interested notable exception Professor [TS]

  Moriarty which i'm not surprised by but [TS]

  for the large extent like they just [TS]

  weren't interested in playing the games [TS]

  are they were one of them even said like [TS]

  always just it feels like a like a waste [TS]

  of my mental efforts to to be playing [TS]

  this kind of game is like news at eleven [TS]

  successful chemistry professors not so [TS]

  interested in video games [TS]

  it's just it seems like obviously this [TS]

  would be anti-correlated i think a lot [TS]

  of paper won't like hearing that [TS]

  why well because it because the the flip [TS]

  side of it is saying if you're really [TS]

  into games and like playing games you're [TS]

  not successful [TS]

  that's the kind of weird argument i'm [TS]

  just simply saying that that if you're a [TS]

  student and hang on a second I know you [TS]

  say I say some weird things but that's [TS]

  not all weird thing to say I'm not [TS]

  saying it's true I don't think it's true [TS]

  but it's not a weird thing to say when [TS]

  you just said [TS]

  people who are really successful haven't [TS]

  got time for games isn't a fairly to [TS]

  make to say well if you have got time [TS]

  for games [TS]

  you must not be as successful that's not [TS]

  like a stupid could be wrong but it's [TS]

  not stupid [TS]

  now yes and I wasn't saying it's a it's [TS]

  a stupid argument I just think it's it's [TS]

  like the it's like basketball players [TS]

  are taller than the population on [TS]

  average that's not saying that only tall [TS]

  people are basketball players right [TS]

  think that that's the that's the [TS]

  converse argument here [TS]

  mm you're talking about successful [TS]

  people i think you should find that on [TS]

  average most of their time is spent on [TS]

  the things that make them successful I [TS]

  think that like that's I think that's [TS]

  what's going on here [TS]

  so what was your first experience of [TS]

  games i really want to know about your [TS]

  first experience where do you start with [TS]

  video games i really don't have any [TS]

  sense of this at all i'm a bit older [TS]

  than you I'm it probably started a bit [TS]

  early for me I was trying to think where [TS]

  it started for me and the first one I [TS]

  wrote down with those you know those [TS]

  handheld donkey kong games that Nintendo [TS]

  used to make you mean the LCD screen [TS]

  games yeah the 20 cds grades so I had [TS]

  that donkey kong and i also had donkey [TS]

  com2 of that and so I write that as the [TS]

  first one so that was that was the first [TS]

  my earliest sort of gaming memories but [TS]

  the thing i want to say about that and I [TS]

  found this really interesting was i had [TS]

  that donkey kong game where you had to [TS]

  you could clock the game by getting to [TS]

  what 999 points and I remember spending [TS]

  hours and hours and days and days and [TS]

  weeks and weeks trying to get through [TS]

  that game and having like at one point [TS]

  having a high score of 970 or something [TS]

  I choked right before the end and I was [TS]

  consumed by the game and then eventually [TS]

  retired you know about put away in a [TS]

  drawer and i never played again and i [TS]

  moved on and I remember one time about [TS]

  five or six years later getting it out [TS]

  and thinking for old times sake let's [TS]

  put the batteries back in it and have a [TS]

  go and then I turned on and played it [TS]

  and the first time i played her i [TS]

  clocked up to the end [TS]

  straightaway [TS]

  and I've never I've never fully [TS]

  understood [TS]

  was it because when you're older you [TS]

  just get better at things and was I just [TS]

  like better and smarter and more like [TS]

  was a little kid was I just not capable [TS]

  of Donkey Kong was behind you [TS]

  yeah it was what is that it was that was [TS]

  is that was a really easy game and just [TS]

  when I was young but they were so [TS]

  certain skills i didn't have and then [TS]

  when i was a bit out like a light [TS]

  teenager or something [TS]

  it was just like child's play but that [TS]

  that's that could be the only [TS]

  explanation could not okay well so for [TS]

  our younger listeners who have no idea [TS]

  what you're talking about just just to [TS]

  set the stage here because i think this [TS]

  answers your question [TS]

  yea the very first handheld video game [TS]

  consoles of any kind [TS]

  we're like gameboy sized things but they [TS]

  were dedicated to a single game and they [TS]

  were just a couple of LCD things on the [TS]

  screen that could light up or that would [TS]

  not light up so if you think of an [TS]

  old-fashioned calculator when you look [TS]

  at the screen you can see that it can't [TS]

  draw arbitrary shapes that can only draw [TS]

  the couple of shapes that will then [TS]

  appear as numbers today on what's [TS]

  illuminated on the screen [TS]

  yeah these games were so simple that [TS]

  they built an entire game out of that [TS]

  concept where there would be a little [TS]

  picture of a donkey kong that could [TS]

  light up or not and so it could only be [TS]

  in like three positions right and and [TS]

  every single place that you could [TS]

  possibly be on the board as a little [TS]

  Mario like the picture would light up or [TS]

  not and so I think Brady these games [TS]

  were so simple that yes adult you is [TS]

  just able to perceive it as the full [TS]

  system that it is and just crush it [TS]

  whereas a kid was a kid it was like I [TS]

  was the man moving around like I got [TS]

  lost in that rifle but when I and maybe [TS]

  cuz i also say more advanced games by [TS]

  that point it just seemed yeah it seemed [TS]

  like up from a primitive intelligence to [TS]

  write his own your you were just able to [TS]

  perceive it as the system of like okay [TS]

  there's only three spots that the that [TS]

  the guy in the bottom can be whenever [TS]

  the barrels in this location like it's [TS]

  not it's not a moving barrel it's a [TS]

  sequence of lights over there and that [TS]

  is over representing [TS]

  what it actually is so those things were [TS]

  just so so simple that was trying to [TS]

  convince them to even anything remotely [TS]

  like a modern video game I did feel like [TS]

  a god all those years later when i took [TS]

  it out just got straight to the end yeah [TS]

  was that after you enjoy your car so and [TS]

  that but then the first from there we [TS]

  were actually I think my parents were [TS]

  quite although my parents went into [TS]

  games they did like new gimmicks I think [TS]

  so we were quite early adopters when it [TS]

  came to the Atari 2600 console which we [TS]

  used to plug into a huge wooden rank [TS]

  arena TV who that's you'd which took [TS]

  four people to lift because it was so [TS]

  heavy i'm pretty sure that you already [TS]

  had wood on it as well it all the time [TS]

  2600 there was wood on the front [TS]

  yeah we did have that I had their only 1 [TS]

  i'll tell you what that TV though brings [TS]

  back fond memories [TS]

  it got to a point where whenever you [TS]

  switch to on you had to wait a good half [TS]

  an hour to 40 minutes until it became [TS]

  bright enough to be able to see things [TS]

  hmmm looks like if there was a TV [TS]

  collect the tube was so out of my [TS]

  parents didn't replace if there was a [TS]

  show on in 40 minutes you want to watch [TS]

  you would turn the TV on now said that [TS]

  the picture would be bright enough by [TS]

  the time the show started [TS]

  that's pretty bad that's pretty bad and [TS]

  we went through this phase where I had [TS]

  this like yellow glow crawling across [TS]

  the screen that we could never figure [TS]

  out and it turns on we put it too close [TS]

  to like one of the speakers from a sound [TS]

  system magnetic shielding you have to [TS]

  have magnetic shielding for your [TS]

  speakers otherwise they're gonna mess up [TS]

  your you're cathode ritu I was so into [TS]

  the atari games missed starting from the [TS]

  really simple ones like outlaw was my [TS]

  earliest memory and basketball with [TS]

  those with just that square pixel bowl [TS]

  and to stick men literally to stick men [TS]

  that make your videos look like [TS]

  masterpieces right playing basketball [TS]

  and I tell you I was amazing at that [TS]

  game [TS]

  I was amazing at basketball then space [TS]

  invaders and defender and yars revenge [TS]

  and all that but I remember when pole [TS]

  position came out on the Atari 2600 like [TS]

  that was such a leap in graphics like I [TS]

  thought this is amazing like games will [TS]

  never get better than this [TS]

  and if you google atari 2600 pole [TS]

  position and watch a YouTube video of it [TS]

  being played and just think that there [TS]

  was a time when i played that game and I [TS]

  thought [TS]

  games won't get better than this [TS]

  graphics won't get better than this this [TS]

  is I can't believe they have done this [TS]

  it was extraordinary to me yeah I [TS]

  definitely played some some of this is [TS]

  that racing game i was just googling it [TS]

  couldn't remember precisely what it is [TS]

  but yes I i never i thought that was I [TS]

  thought I thought humanity had picked [TS]

  with the making of that game and nothing [TS]

  would ever be better [TS]

  I mean just just repairs and here people [TS]

  write like the whole game is 256 pixels [TS]

  by 256 pixels on the screen it like I'm [TS]

  pretty sure I'm pretty sure that icons [TS]

  on my mac are 256 pixels by 250-350 [TS]

  little bit like I was wrong because then [TS]

  eventually I got this game called [TS]

  pitfall to not the original pit for what [TS]

  I actually got pic photo before pit [TS]

  alone and that that game was like it was [TS]

  like Tomb Raider to me I thought oh my [TS]

  goodness this is it's so complex it's so [TS]

  it's so incredibly layered and it's full [TS]

  of depth and adventures to be had I [TS]

  could spend a lifetime playing this game [TS]

  and never get to the end of it and of [TS]

  course i watch someone play on youtube a [TS]

  bit earlier today and it was like the [TS]

  simplest thing in the world was it was [TS]

  good again it was it was ridiculous but [TS]

  at the time it was this whole world I [TS]

  could get lost in how old are you when [TS]

  you're playing this Atari like what like [TS]

  what the time frame here [TS]

  well as the 80 so I guess I'm from you [TS]

  know either side of 10 [TS]

  okay I'm just I'm just trying to [TS]

  establish like okay so this is your [TS]

  early [TS]

  this is your early gaming because this [TS]

  is this is where you what you are about [TS]

  five years older than me and my wife is [TS]

  about the same amount of age younger [TS]

  than me and it's it's interesting that [TS]

  there are so many things where that age [TS]

  difference doesn't matter but when [TS]

  you're talking about what were the [TS]

  experiences of 10 or 15 year-old you [TS]

  it's like oh you're from different [TS]

  planets right that that is its [TS]

  accelerated especially for people who [TS]

  are interested in technology when you [TS]

  rewind and you're going across like okay [TS]

  were you experiencing computing in [TS]

  nineteen eighty or 85 or 90 like these [TS]

  these are light years apart and going [TS]

  through my own history of gaming like I [TS]

  had some of the the handheld stuff that [TS]

  you did that's why I know what you're [TS]

  talking about with the donkey kong game [TS]

  and I had a neighbor who had an Atari so [TS]

  I played some games on there and I'm [TS]

  sure that definitely a definitely helped [TS]

  solidify our French it's like you have [TS]

  it sorry [TS]

  you can play video games wow I'm gonna [TS]

  make sure i always go over to your house [TS]

  but from for me like my own personal [TS]

  gaming experience didn't really happen [TS]

  until nineteen ninety when I got a [TS]

  gameboy it's like that was the first [TS]

  thing that I own that was actually a [TS]

  general gaming platform and they're like [TS]

  the difference between something like [TS]

  that and the Ataris just like it puts us [TS]

  at surprisingly far difference in some [TS]

  way for what is the early experience of [TS]

  gaming it makes me feel ancient that [TS]

  when i think of Sutherland younger [TS]

  listeners we could look these up now and [TS]

  think oh my goodness [TS]

  right but moving to a computer was a [TS]

  really interesting thing for me the [TS]

  computer that my mom bought for me was [TS]

  an amstrad CPC 612 it and the reason she [TS]

  got this was because that was the [TS]

  computer that I used at my school for [TS]

  computer lessons and that i was going to [TS]

  learn learn on social thought it would [TS]

  make sense to have the same computer i I [TS]

  don't know who she bought it from a way [TS]

  she got up but she bought it from some [TS]

  compete mysterious computer Jedi because [TS]

  the one we bought he had done so many [TS]

  hacks to her and had made so many things [TS]

  and he'd like it literally added buttons [TS]

  to it like like actual red buttons that [TS]

  did weird things that computers weren't [TS]

  supposed to do and my mom border with [TS]

  these two massive massive box is full of [TS]

  disks and games that there must have [TS]

  been two hundred maybe who discs and [TS]

  most of them had multiple games i never [TS]

  got through finding out all the games he [TS]

  had on them but he also had all this [TS]

  software that did weird things and he [TS]

  gave us this instructions on how to use [TS]

  one of these discs to fix your computer [TS]

  when weird [TS]

  this happened and it was all very [TS]

  straight my mom had no idea that was [TS]

  just me discovering all this stuff as i [TS]

  put in disc after a disk and finding new [TS]

  games and new things but there was this [TS]

  one disc this one bit of software that [TS]

  was like very powerful and magical [TS]

  because I remember one time I had this [TS]

  friend that was really into computers [TS]

  and he was really into this 6128 and I [TS]

  said you know you should come round and [TS]

  see more than one day its head to call [TS]

  these weird things beyond and I've got [TS]

  all this software that I don't [TS]

  understand and he came around and it was [TS]

  like I just showing him a map on the [TS]

  back of the Declaration of Independence [TS]

  that he couldn't believe what I've shown [TS]

  him this is this powerful amazing piece [TS]

  of treasure and I was then vanished from [TS]

  the room and he spent the next two days [TS]

  just copying everything and and and [TS]

  taking all this stuff so I had I had [TS]

  countless countless computer games and i [TS]

  would i would some of them i would play [TS]

  for a few months and other ones i would [TS]

  look at for 10 minutes and never play [TS]

  again but I was really into games at [TS]

  that point because i had this ridiculous [TS]

  number of them the pc gaming thing is [TS]

  where for me it's hard to figure out [TS]

  precisely when this happened I was [TS]

  trying to look through pictures earlier [TS]

  today that like place my own history [TS]

  with games but I to know that like why I [TS]

  had a variety of computers when I was [TS]

  young like I was lucky enough that was [TS]

  in a family that that had that kind of [TS]

  thing and i also had like I don't even [TS]

  know where they came from like did my [TS]

  dad get them i have no idea but there [TS]

  was just tons of floppy disks with the [TS]

  same thing with like there's a bunch of [TS]

  games on here where there's just random [TS]

  programs on here that do stuff and [TS]

  having that computer places like wow [TS]

  this is amazing [TS]

  there's an infinite world of stuff to [TS]

  explore in this box it's just amazing [TS]

  and that was my first experiences with [TS]

  computer programming like wow there's [TS]

  this system here that that I can talk to [TS]

  in this very basic way with with [TS]

  computer programming or they're just [TS]

  these games that are these these [TS]

  machines to interact with it was all [TS]

  just like very very horizon broadening [TS]

  for the right kind of person like I [TS]

  think a lot of [TS]

  nerds in our broad age demographic had [TS]

  this experience of a computer being just [TS]

  something so fundamentally different [TS]

  from everything else in the world and [TS]

  it's just really being the adults don't [TS]

  know what it is they just have it they [TS]

  feel like oh our kids need this for the [TS]

  future but it's just a machine like oh [TS]

  here kid [TS]

  here is a here is a corner of the world [TS]

  in which you have autonomy where you can [TS]

  just interact with his virtual world and [TS]

  it will push back against you and if it [TS]

  feels like okay you are as good as you [TS]

  can be here or as bad as you can be here [TS]

  like whatever you can figure out it's [TS]

  entirely you figuring out and for the [TS]

  right kind of kid like that is just [TS]

  incredibly rewarding and i know i was [TS]

  definitely that kind of kid I spent [TS]

  every free moment I possibly could [TS]

  on the computer just playing games or [TS]

  messing around or trying to write a [TS]

  horrible qbasic programs because it just [TS]

  felt like it like an infinite universe [TS]

  where I have autonomy and it's just [TS]

  different from everything else in your [TS]

  life when you're a kid at that age I [TS]

  feel like I mean perhaps because I love [TS]

  sports so much and I'm and I was in a [TS]

  place with a really nice climate and I i [TS]

  did have a bit of balance and I didn't [TS]

  spend every waking hour on the computer [TS]

  but i did spend a disproportionate [TS]

  amount of time on the computer you know [TS]

  me now I mean I can't cut my way out of [TS]

  a paper bag then I did go through there [TS]

  was a brief window when I almost could [TS]

  have become one of those people because [TS]

  i remember when we first started [TS]

  learning coding like really basic stuff [TS]

  in school are just basic you know ten go [TS]

  to 20 type stuff right within that [TS]

  within a day or two that's it the [TS]

  computer teacher had taken me off the [TS]

  the curriculum and while everyone else [TS]

  just went through the textbook and typed [TS]

  in stuff and did their lessons and tests [TS]

  i was allowed to sit in accord corner [TS]

  and just make programs i would just sit [TS]

  there and make code things and make [TS]

  games and make things and particular [TS]

  just come along you know a few days ago [TS]

  it's amazing have you done that so i did [TS]

  get really into it for this brief period [TS]

  and then and that didn't happen but then [TS]

  it didn't stick [TS]

  but I did stay with I did stay with [TS]

  games and obviously a playstation [TS]

  playstation came along and and then the [TS]

  first Tomb Raider game was a real [TS]

  game-changer for me too because the [TS]

  funny thing was that was unheard it was [TS]

  this really cool game and I went and [TS]

  rented it from a lot of the video store [TS]

  when used to go and rent games but they [TS]

  didn't have the instructions and we had [TS]

  no idea how to play at blue and I [TS]

  remember really early in the game we [TS]

  were just in this room like moving lower [TS]

  craft around walking into walls and [TS]

  having no idea what to do and we must [TS]

  have spent like a good two hours made my [TS]

  mac thinking this game is ridiculous [TS]

  it's the most boring game ever and then [TS]

  just while I was up against a wall [TS]

  I like press the button and suddenly [TS]

  Larry crafting bent down and pulled out [TS]

  one of those blocks to reveal to reveal [TS]

  a new passageway and the minute she [TS]

  pulled that block out the way I was like [TS]

  oh my goodness this is something really [TS]

  special and I got obsessed with the tomb [TS]

  raider games and I went I went through [TS]

  the first three or four tomb raider [TS]

  games and it was around that time that i [TS]

  started working as a journalist and I [TS]

  was still gaming in my spare time for a [TS]

  while for maybe the first three years as [TS]

  a journalist three or four years and [TS]

  then it then it happened then the drifts [TS]

  started so how so how old are you at the [TS]

  point where you're trailing are from [TS]

  games early twenties [TS]

  ok i made a brief comeback for uncharted [TS]

  drake's Fortune like I already like to [TS]

  look at that and I played that one all [TS]

  the way to the end and i like that so [TS]

  that was that was after I moved to the [TS]

  UK so i must have bought a console when [TS]

  I was in the UK to yeah i did buy a [TS]

  console in the UK but i never got really [TS]

  really obsessed with it and I just [TS]

  haven't been able to get back into it [TS]

  since and I really want to like I look [TS]

  at I feel the desire but I haven't got [TS]

  whatever it takes to get there whatever [TS]

  the activation energy is to get back [TS]

  into games has gone like it's like I [TS]

  can't describe it it's like falling out [TS]

  of love maybe or i mean his apathy what [TS]

  you're trying to describe yeah i think [TS]

  maybe it's that you know i love and i [TS]

  love that i look at that i look at your [TS]

  truck simulator game and think that [TS]

  would really appeal to me because I [TS]

  always liked games that involve roads [TS]

  and maps and I loved simcity and [TS]

  although [TS]

  other things and and all the designing [TS]

  games that i know you get into designing [TS]

  your prisons and stuff i think that [TS]

  would be really cool because when I was [TS]

  a kid I used to love designing pretend [TS]

  houses or like used to love designing [TS]

  pretend racetracks and things like that [TS]

  so I love the idea of designing and [TS]

  creating when it comes to that next step [TS]

  of going out and buying what you're [TS]

  doing i just think know and part of me [TS]

  doesn't you know that's probably for the [TS]

  best because I haven't got time but if I [TS]

  have spare time you know I don't wanna I [TS]

  don't want to spend playing games and I [TS]

  some people going to say to you play [TS]

  games on your phone and I do have a few [TS]

  games on my phone and I occasionally [TS]

  we'll play one but even then I don't [TS]

  play for very long and we will say what [TS]

  that means you still the gamer but it [TS]

  doesn't really meet your game yeah i [TS]

  don't think i don't think so i don't [TS]

  think that like that every year that's [TS]

  the casual game world i was talking with [TS]

  my parents about video games last time i [TS]

  was i was in north carolina for the [TS]

  summer they were discussing the circle [TS]

  of friends and there was like I would [TS]

  you know anybody who plays video games [TS]

  and and they were like oh no nobody [TS]

  nobody plays video games there's the [TS]

  conversation when I would like you sure [TS]

  no one plays video games like oh yeah [TS]

  nobody does the end result of this was [TS]

  though that in their circle nobody [TS]

  thought of themselves as playing video [TS]

  games but many people had casual games [TS]

  on their phone that they would play [TS]

  right but everybody seems to put this in [TS]

  a different category in their minds like [TS]

  oh I don't play video games I've just [TS]

  sunk thousands of hours into candy crush [TS]

  on my phone but hopefully I you know I i [TS]

  have a few games on my phone but I [TS]

  definitely don't think they're up late [TS]

  for one or two hours over the course of [TS]

  a week and then never even again [TS]

  yeah so I think what we're talking about [TS]

  here is something slightly above the [TS]

  level of like I just a casual thing on [TS]

  your phone to play for a few moments [TS]

  understanding in line like that's a [TS]

  different kind of game and any I think [TS]

  those surveys that that try to reach [TS]

  about like oh look everybody in the [TS]

  world plays video games like yeah but I [TS]

  don't think that's what people think [TS]

  about when they're talking about video [TS]

  games but yeah so you just you just lost [TS]

  love [TS]

  that's what happened to you breathe just [TS]

  lost yeah and I do and I wonder why [TS]

  either i wonder why i have or you [TS]

  haven't [TS]

  that's what I'd like to figure out [TS]

  because you're well past the point where [TS]

  i'd lost interest [TS]

  yeah even though you're even though you [TS]

  are just a baby [TS]

  yeah 50 years younger than you yeah but [TS]

  I'm like a grown-ass man who still plays [TS]

  a ton of video games right and and oh [TS]

  yeah i mean obviously you've created a [TS]

  job for yourself now where you can we [TS]

  have a lot of spare time but even when [TS]

  you were teaching and you had like what [TS]

  i would call like a normal hours job [TS]

  UNT games then yeah teaching was the [TS]

  nadir of my video-game-playing by farm [TS]

  there was definitely a break the year [TS]

  that i was doing teacher training and my [TS]

  first year as a teacher where I don't [TS]

  think I played a single video game for [TS]

  that entire span because they're just [TS]

  was no time available at all those are [TS]

  those are brutal years for any new [TS]

  teacher and that just it just wasn't a [TS]

  possibility and then as my teaching [TS]

  career went on and as I got better at it [TS]

  and better at managing my own time and [TS]

  having materials from from the past [TS]

  years I did have more time to play games [TS]

  and it was something that I slowly [TS]

  started to get back into after a big [TS]

  break and in some ways I do wish that I [TS]

  could be like you write in some ways i [TS]

  wish that i could be apathetic about [TS]

  games in in on the one hand on the other [TS]

  hand kind of way like i wish i could be [TS]

  apathetic about sport like you are [TS]

  afraid right yeah there's definitely [TS]

  sometimes a feeling of like is actually [TS]

  how I want to be spending time like that [TS]

  that thought does cross my mind and of [TS]

  course as i get older and as mortality [TS]

  looms larger on the horizon like you [TS]

  become more aware of that quite [TS]

  naturally but i also know that the games [TS]

  are a huge and enjoyable part of my life [TS]

  and that's why there was this break for [TS]

  two years when I didn't really play them [TS]

  remember having a couple conversations [TS]

  with with my wife around the time that I [TS]

  was getting back into games about how [TS]

  like this is something that i deeply [TS]

  enjoy in a way that i enjoy no other [TS]

  kinds of things like this is a unique [TS]

  form of entertainment that is different [TS]

  for me and that is also highly [TS]

  meaningful and I was just amazed going [TS]

  back through [TS]

  some of the pictures that I happen to [TS]

  have of my younger life of trying to [TS]

  find like birthdays and Christmases [TS]

  looking around like a look [TS]

  my parents got me video games and like [TS]

  every birthday and Christmas and just [TS]

  thinking about how like man I have such [TS]

  strong intense memories that are related [TS]

  to some of these games [TS]

  yeah i think just a very easy example is [TS]

  a game like mist which was kind of a [TS]

  classic in the nineties but where you [TS]

  explore this this island and there's [TS]

  some puzzles [TS]

  I normally hate puzzle games but this [TS]

  one just happened to catch my attention [TS]

  but I spent so many hours playing that [TS]

  game when I think back on it every once [TS]

  in a while like in in the real world [TS]

  there are places that I go to and I [TS]

  think this is so missed like for example [TS]

  in London there is this footpath that [TS]

  goes under the Thames at greenwich and I [TS]

  cannot go there without thinking of that [TS]

  game missed because it looks like this [TS]

  is something right out of mist and that [TS]

  island [TS]

  I swear the part of my brain that [TS]

  remembers physical places that I used to [TS]

  spend a lot of time like my school when [TS]

  I was a kid or the house that I was [TS]

  growing up that island of mists is as [TS]

  physical in my mind as any of the other [TS]

  places that i have ever been like some [TS]

  games can give you a sense of place and [TS]

  I i just think that that is valuable and [TS]

  interesting in a in a way that other [TS]

  life experiences are not so when I [TS]

  didn't have video games in my life I [TS]

  missed them and I'm very glad that I now [TS]

  have them back in my life even if i do [TS]

  have occasional fleeting moments like is [TS]

  this how I want to spend my time but I [TS]

  think anytime you're consuming any form [TS]

  of entertainment [TS]

  it's a very natural thought to have like [TS]

  I think that sometimes when I'm watching [TS]

  movies or anything like that like the [TS]

  thought flashed through your mind of [TS]

  like is this the best way to spend your [TS]

  limited hours on earth and then it's [TS]

  like well yeah I do really like doing [TS]

  this kind of stuff I ice [TS]

  I am sympathetic towards your apathy and [TS]

  in some ways find it admirable like you [TS]

  said in the way that you find my apathy [TS]

  towards sports admirable [TS]

  the funny thing is I amps ice slowly [TS]

  starting to feel that happened to me [TS]

  with sports well who not as dramatic and [TS]

  I still really like especially with that [TS]

  cricket but i'm a bit less engaged by a [TS]

  few sports then I used to be and I watch [TS]

  a lot less of it than I used to and I [TS]

  think you're right i think it's time i [TS]

  think i just don't have time for all [TS]

  these things anymore and like I could [TS]

  get I could give them time and I don't [TS]

  want to give them the time i would [TS]

  rather do either work or other things [TS]

  and I don't know so i think it's a bit i [TS]

  think i would almost be copping out [TS]

  almost humble bragging to say oh it's [TS]

  because i'm more successful now and I'm [TS]

  doing all these things and I haven't got [TS]

  time to play games and more sport i [TS]

  think i think there is an element of [TS]

  choice in a you know I could I could put [TS]

  a few of these things on the back burner [TS]

  and play games or or watch more sport if [TS]

  I wanted to but I don't want to i want [TS]

  to do the other things and more drawn to [TS]

  them [TS]

  yeah i mean that's this is this goes [TS]

  back to you know what I always feel [TS]

  about like human interest there's no [TS]

  explaining why people find things [TS]

  interesting or boring or when you look [TS]

  across a bunch of different humans [TS]

  things that one human find incredibly [TS]

  interesting another human find [TS]

  incredibly boring and there's there's no [TS]

  way to explain that the video game thing [TS]

  the reason this topic caught my [TS]

  attention when you brought it up talking [TS]

  about how you've lost interest in it is [TS]

  that i have observed phenomenon in [TS]

  myself many times i am playing games [TS]

  that I find interesting which is that [TS]

  there's a certain kind of game that I'm [TS]

  playing and for gamers it's usually [TS]

  something like a dungeon crawler or any [TS]

  kind of game with an RPG element to it [TS]

  where I will have been playing a game [TS]

  for maybe 10 hours and intensely [TS]

  intensely interested in continuing [TS]

  onward with the game and advancing a [TS]

  character and collecting more items in [TS]

  the game world and then suddenly and I [TS]

  mean within the space of five seconds i [TS]

  go from I could not be more interested [TS]

  in this game to come [TS]

  pleat and total apathy in the game is [TS]

  like a switch just flips in my brain and [TS]

  I know okay i'm done with this game i [TS]

  will never play this game ever again i [TS]

  have just one hundred percent totally [TS]

  lost interest in it and it's not because [TS]

  you're finished a lot you know conquered [TS]

  it's just something happened [TS]

  nope it's yeah i hope i have [TS]

  accomplished nothing or finished [TS]

  anything there's just some moment where [TS]

  it's like boom something in my brain has [TS]

  changed and I have no interest in it not [TS]

  disinterest just nun and and of course [TS]

  this again is one of these things like [TS]

  it ties into my whole notions of free [TS]

  will and things like this to give to me [TS]

  is one of these moments where it seems [TS]

  so apparent like he will like haha of [TS]

  course I don't have it [TS]

  what on earth can explain that in the [TS]

  space of seconds i go from finding a [TS]

  thing incredibly interesting to find it [TS]

  totally uninteresting i would love to be [TS]

  able to be in an MRI machine when this [TS]

  happens because it's so sudden and so [TS]

  obvious I feel like there must be [TS]

  something that people can see and it's [TS]

  not like oh I've grown tired of it for [TS]

  the day it's just like no this game is [TS]

  dead to me now i just have no interest [TS]

  in playing it ever again [TS]

  have you seen the film is a closer it's [TS]

  got a clive owen jude law and natalie [TS]

  portman and julia roberts and it's like [TS]

  about relationships and the natalie [TS]

  portman character is like enough with [TS]

  this guy who like just does the wrong [TS]

  thing by her all the time and she just [TS]

  she's just keeps going back to him and [TS]

  still loves him and then she's in the in [TS]

  two seconds one day she just clicks and [TS]

  falls out of love with him like just [TS]

  completely this it just all changes in [TS]

  at like a heartbeat very powerful saying [TS]

  who in the film and that's what reminds [TS]

  me of what you just said like it is [TS]

  completely like it's like something just [TS]

  something just tipped whether there was [TS]

  like that you know was a tipping point [TS]

  of something [TS]

  yeah I don't know what it is other than [TS]

  to say there's obviously something [TS]

  physical that's happened in my brain [TS]

  something about the like the dopamine [TS]

  reward cycle for this particular [TS]

  activity is just broken just broken [TS]

  immediately and directly like it's just [TS]

  he's not coming back and [TS]

  that to me why I like it's interesting [TS]

  the idea that you have lost interest in [TS]

  teams over time as you have got maybe [TS]

  that's what happened to make right maybe [TS]

  that happened to me but on a on a macro [TS]

  level rather than a micro-level yeah [TS]

  well that that's what i'm wondering [TS]

  right has this same process occurred in [TS]

  you just over a longer period of time [TS]

  when i like that i like the idea that [TS]

  something physical has broken like [TS]

  you're saying like some some reward [TS]

  process or some chemical thing that I [TS]

  used to get just stopped that would be [TS]

  really a powerful explanation quite like [TS]

  that [TS]

  yeah but I mean obviously that has that [TS]

  that's the only explanation that there [TS]

  can be that there's something different [TS]

  in your brain [TS]

  I mean what other explanation can there [TS]

  be four you not having interested in [TS]

  there yeah it's just like loving your [TS]

  wife Brady right it's hard because of [TS]

  something physical in your brain it [TS]

  can't be anything else would be like [TS]

  whatever that was an amazing explanation [TS]

  the structure in my brain res is the [TS]

  cause of my legs I can't believe I'll [TS]

  come on baby it's not yet but you're [TS]

  making it sound like you know one convey [TS]

  about suddenly breaks and you lose [TS]

  interesting games i'm sure i'm sure the [TS]

  thing that makes one lakh games or love [TS]

  a person is an incredibly complex web of [TS]

  many many things and you couldn't put it [TS]

  down to this one thing breaking or [TS]

  changing so when I say one thing [TS]

  breaking I don't I don't mean that [TS]

  there's a single neuron that just broke [TS]

  whether there's some system in the brain [TS]

  which is changed and and again just just [TS]

  with the games like that is to me is the [TS]

  most transparent thing ever i think I [TS]

  cannot believe how my subjective [TS]

  experience of the thing can be so [TS]

  radically altered with nothing [TS]

  apparently being different the game [TS]

  hasn't changed i haven't changed [TS]

  I'm just sitting here doing the thing [TS]

  that ever doing for the last two hours [TS]

  but the thing about the thing that makes [TS]

  yours you're falling out of love with [TS]

  the game in like five seconds so [TS]

  compelling and harder to understand is [TS]

  that I imagine what you get from games [TS]

  or sport or whatever you're into is [TS]

  really really complicated but there's [TS]

  lots of this like is that what I'm [TS]

  saying is there one thing that can break [TS]

  that would make you stop liking games [TS]

  immediately or do lots of things have to [TS]

  break like like a plane can keep flying [TS]

  if componente breaks or component B [TS]

  breaks or the left engine goes out or [TS]

  something but as if a certain number of [TS]

  things break the plane will fall out of [TS]

  the sky but there are also a few [TS]

  deal-breakers like if the wings fell off [TS]

  the planes gonna crash no matter what so [TS]

  do you fall out of love with the game [TS]

  because the wings fell off like the one [TS]

  important thing you were getting from [TS]

  that game broke or did a few things or [TS]

  break at once like when you no longer [TS]

  interested by the storyline where you no [TS]

  longer getting a dopamine where you no [TS]

  longer you know I guess that's what I'm [TS]

  getting it because I feel like me [TS]

  falling out of love with games is more a [TS]

  widespread fairly and lots of things [TS]

  failed whereas you can't just enjoy a [TS]

  game and not like a game two seconds [TS]

  later because a whole bunch of things [TS]

  changed at once that would be too big a [TS]

  coincidence i will again I you know your [TS]

  analogy is can terribly confusing to me [TS]

  but I just I just know that this is the [TS]

  thing that happens all the time to me [TS]

  when playing games against it is is [TS]

  recurrent and frequent and that's why I [TS]

  observing it is always interesting and [TS]

  sometimes I try to catch myself like [TS]

  what has happened and the answer is I [TS]

  have no idea that says to me you're [TS]

  getting one simple thing from gaming [TS]

  that like often in your enjoyment of [TS]

  those games there was just one very [TS]

  simple thing you're getting you know [TS]

  that they let the biscuit for the dog [TS]

  and suddenly the biscuits run out it [TS]

  wasn't like there was like all these [TS]

  things going on that we're making it [TS]

  love the game but you weren't enjoying [TS]

  on numerous levels because i can't [TS]

  imagine all those levels of file at once [TS]

  that's why i think that the kind of [TS]

  games that this happens to me and [TS]

  usually have mechanics that relate [TS]

  around exploring and collecting and [TS]

  crafting items they are almost always [TS]

  games where you don't get better at the [TS]

  game the character in the game improves [TS]

  and can do things better [TS]

  right so I know you're fighting monsters [TS]

  you can fight monsters better because [TS]

  you have better swords not because you [TS]

  have learned a skill like that is there [TS]

  a common factor in those [TS]

  and and the closest I have come to [TS]

  figuring this out as i get some point my [TS]

  brain just kind of sees through the [TS]

  mechanics a little bit too far into what [TS]

  the game is doing and then just totally [TS]

  loses interest that that's my that's my [TS]

  basic gas but you know when you talk [TS]

  about losing interest in Games one of [TS]

  the things that's interesting to me is I [TS]

  am always just impressed by the [TS]

  incredible wide variety of what games in [TS]

  compass in the modern world it's very [TS]

  easy to think of games as just a narrow [TS]

  subject subset of genres like basically [TS]

  a lot of people when they think of video [TS]

  games they think like oh the triple-a [TS]

  kind of games right if you know big [TS]

  shoot him up [TS]

  central character focused kind of games [TS]

  but like that the universe of games is [TS]

  just so enormous that they are this [TS]

  expanse of various forms of [TS]

  entertainment some of which are [TS]

  remarkably one game like and I put truck [TS]

  simulator in there as a thing which is [TS]

  like is this a game I don't think this [TS]

  is even a game at all like this is this [TS]

  is driving a truck across a virtual [TS]

  horizon like this to me feel fulfills a [TS]

  totally different need and form of [TS]

  entertainment than anything remotely [TS]

  game like would be and I think that's [TS]

  one of the very interesting things about [TS]

  modern games and so I wonder about you [TS]

  getting back into games like are there [TS]

  other kinds of entertainment that you [TS]

  would enjoy that happened that can [TS]

  happen to be experienced in video games [TS]

  but is not necessarily like the games [TS]

  that you may have played when you were [TS]

  younger [TS]

  like I think of a game i really enjoyed [TS]

  a few years ago called year one which is [TS]

  also a thing that I would classify as [TS]

  barely a game it is it is much more like [TS]

  an interactive story and most of the [TS]

  time games that market themselves as [TS]

  interactive stories are just disasters [TS]

  they're just terribly boring but this [TS]

  was one that I spent quite an enjoyable [TS]

  maybe hour-and-a-half like it's very [TS]

  short time working through [TS]

  this little interactive story and [TS]

  exploring this world and it was it was [TS]

  much more like a movie like experience [TS]

  and maybe broadly in the genre of of [TS]

  horror but i really like that even [TS]

  though i'd be very hard-pressed to say [TS]

  like was this a game I like I don't [TS]

  think it was even though it's kind of [TS]

  marketed as a game so I maybe maybe [TS]

  there's stuff along the edges that you [TS]

  might you might like to play that's less [TS]

  game like than traditional games still [TS]

  at the end of the day how many I that [TS]

  was a short one but still at the end of [TS]

  the dive that probably the biggest [TS]

  problem is time [TS]

  mm which makes me wonder too does your [TS]

  wife play games or do you play games [TS]

  with her was just completely set [TS]

  protective at APA from you know that [TS]

  time with her that there's two different [TS]

  things that I'm doing here writes like [TS]

  I'm generally unproductive in the [TS]

  afternoon so if if I am NOT editing a [TS]

  podcast or animating in the afternoons [TS]

  that's one of the times when I will [TS]

  sometimes play games sometimes i just [TS]

  read in the afternoons but sometimes up [TS]

  all play games and then my wife isn't [TS]

  around anyway so it's like okay well [TS]

  whatever yes on my own here and that's [TS]

  usually when I'm playing more along the [TS]

  lines of what are like hardcore games [TS]

  like pc games that require my actual [TS]

  main computer to play [TS]

  yeah but the other time that i play [TS]

  games which is sort of more social is in [TS]

  the evenings if my wife is watching [TS]

  something [TS]

  let's just say she will sometimes select [TS]

  things that I would not want to give my [TS]

  full attention to if I was if I was [TS]

  forced to watch with one hundred percent [TS]

  of my attention i might think we're [TS]

  quite torturous to watch but if I can [TS]

  dial it down to like thirty three [TS]

  percent of my attention then suddenly [TS]

  it's an entertaining experience for the [TS]

  both of us run so I like to do a lot of [TS]

  more casual gaming like on the couch [TS]

  when I'm watching TV with my wife and [TS]

  that's a much more enjoyable experience [TS]

  because I can make snarky comments about [TS]

  whatever is on TV and make her laugh and [TS]

  like where where they're kind of [TS]

  spending time together even though i am [TS]

  partly engaged in another activity but i [TS]

  would find it just intolerable to just [TS]

  sit there and [TS]

  and devote one hundred percent of my [TS]

  attention to the TV like that I would [TS]

  never want to do that so it's like it i [TS]

  think that works well for both of us [TS]

  yeah i mean it sounds like you've got a [TS]

  good a good compromise there and I think [TS]

  maybe that's another big factor for me [TS]

  is now that I'm married I'm working and [TS]

  then I'm not working I want us [TS]

  I I want to spend time with my wife [TS]

  which had which I didn't have when I was [TS]

  in my twenties and right of course yeah [TS]

  that's the other big thing [TS]

  yeah so enlarge your penis yeah and my [TS]

  wife's not into games and we do like [TS]

  watching the exact same things on so i [TS]

  think i think when i can the evening or [TS]

  when we're together I kind of think we [TS]

  should do things together and we want to [TS]

  do the same thing and be engaged in the [TS]

  same thing and if I was sitting on a [TS]

  game while she was watching another show [TS]

  that would be that wouldn't go down well [TS]

  then in the Heron household but not just [TS]

  that I think yeah I think I think saying [TS]

  you've got thirty-three percent of my [TS]

  attention might not go down well but but [TS]

  but it's but it's more a case of you [TS]

  know we do watch the exact same things [TS]

  and we wanted and we want to do that [TS]

  together so that little window where I [TS]

  could have game time and when i did have [TS]

  game time as a as a guy in my twenties [TS]

  it's not there anymore as well so that's [TS]

  probably that's probably another big [TS]

  factor which begs exactly ties into time [TS]

  again as well but there's another reason [TS]

  that I have this time so when I was [TS]

  going through the photos to remind [TS]

  myself of the games we used to play when [TS]

  I was a kid all I could think it was man [TS]

  i sank hundreds and hundreds of hours [TS]

  into some of these games i was looking [TS]

  at on on on photos like you know it [TS]

  would come up and it would like man look [TS]

  at that first warcraft that you got kid [TS]

  like you don't know but you can spend [TS]

  500 hours on that like just playing it [TS]

  over and over again like oh look there's [TS]

  total annihilation yep like there was [TS]

  your entire sophomore year of high [TS]

  school right like every free our you add [TS]

  like you played that game and it's it's [TS]

  of course because like yes as a as a kid [TS]

  what did I have to do as we discussed in [TS]

  earlier podcast i blew off all my [TS]

  homework as much as I possibly could and [TS]

  so I spent all of my free time like [TS]

  messing around on the computer reading a [TS]

  book or playing a game the and like that [TS]

  I didn't have any other responsibilities [TS]

  in the world right so [TS]

  so you could definitely spend so much [TS]

  time in it whereas now i use it i use a [TS]

  program called steam on my mac to play [TS]

  all of my games and they do have a [TS]

  feature where they'll still tell you [TS]

  like oh how much how much you played [TS]

  various games like they let you know how [TS]

  many hours you put into a thing and when [TS]

  I look at them sometimes like all these [TS]

  are sad number and it's like how much [TS]

  time [TS]

  time [TS]

  do you game how much time do you spend [TS]

  gaming a weekend out changes because if [TS]

  you production cycle but would you have [TS]

  to put a number on it whatever talking [TS]

  about something like a thing that I'm [TS]

  actually focused on to like afternoon [TS]

  gaming it's probably not more than a [TS]

  couple of hours a week at most and then [TS]

  the evening gaming is very hard [TS]

  the casual gaming maybe like four hours [TS]

  a week [TS]

  I'm just trying to ball park it here but [TS]

  so i'm going to say maybe something like [TS]

  six hours a week on average are those [TS]

  evening games the same games he played [TS]

  in the afternoon with other different [TS]

  games the different games are they left [TS]

  phone games one of the games you doing [TS]

  in the evening while you're watching a [TS]

  show with your wife [TS]

  yeah the their stuff on my iPad and like [TS]

  they they need to have a few [TS]

  requirements one of which is that the [TS]

  game can't take all of my attention [TS]

  because i need to save thirty-three [TS]

  percent of it right for the for the rest [TS]

  of the home environment [TS]

  yeah and they also have to be possible [TS]

  straight away like I can't have a game [TS]

  that I can't immediately just put down [TS]

  and stop [TS]

  yeah and so in some ways i have to [TS]

  intentionally pic games that are much [TS]

  less engaging than games i would [TS]

  otherwise play but it's like it's a nice [TS]

  compromise so what's an example because [TS]

  people are probably going to be [TS]

  wondering what's he talking about what's [TS]

  what's one of your evening games at the [TS]

  moment I have been playing for a game [TS]

  called crash lands at the moment which I [TS]

  can kind of recommend although that is [TS]

  definitely one of those RPG style games [TS]

  where I I know like clock's ticking on [TS]

  that 1 i'm going to be playing it you [TS]

  know in the middle of watching devil [TS]

  wears prada or something and just going [TS]

  to at some point immediately just put it [TS]

  down and be like oh I'm done with you [TS]

  game [TS]

  I'm just done I play a lot of what are [TS]

  called tower defense games so something [TS]

  like kingdom rush where you're just [TS]

  placing placing down little towers to [TS]

  defend yourself from invaders that are [TS]

  coming in these are casual ish games [TS]

  they're they're not anything that [TS]

  requires a huge amount of focus if you [TS]

  thought there was a game at the moment I [TS]

  had a hope of getting me back into [TS]

  gaming what would pay if you like if you [TS]

  had to if you had one governor and you [TS]

  really cared about me getting back into [TS]

  it which i like it don't you couldn't [TS]

  care less but yeah it was your mission [TS]

  what would think what would you use [TS]

  that's impossible you're setting for me [TS]

  just an absolute impossible task [TS]

  you know what you know what this is like [TS]

  it's almost like you're coming to me and [TS]

  saying I fallen out of love with movies [TS]

  I haven't watched movies in 10 years if [TS]

  there was one movie you were going to [TS]

  give to me to sell me on movies [TS]

  what would you sell me on that's also a [TS]

  great question [TS]

  yeah but then I also i just don't have a [TS]

  really good sense of what kind of games [TS]

  you like even just know you're going [TS]

  through your history and talking to [TS]

  somebody about some atari games and [TS]

  things like I don't know man like its it [TS]

  would be impossible to pick something to [TS]

  try to get you sold on it [TS]

  Justin again just because like i was [TS]

  saying before there's just so many [TS]

  different genres like there are games i [TS]

  am convinced that our games for everyone [TS]

  out there are even people who don't [TS]

  think they like games there's something [TS]

  for you you just don't know what it is [TS]

  king said to me seemed horrific Lee [TS]

  boring my favorite example of this is [TS]

  that there are games where the whole [TS]

  game is someone someone shows you like a [TS]

  picture of a messy room and you have to [TS]

  find an object in that room and that's [TS]

  all the game is just like here's a [TS]

  picture of a room [TS]

  click on the object in the room I can't [TS]

  imagine anything that is more repulsive [TS]

  but like people love those games i [TS]

  forget what they look like object [TS]

  finding games or something like that you [TS]

  couldn't pay me to play that but people [TS]

  love it [TS]

  I'll tell you what kind of game that is [TS]

  think a lot of time into which I think I [TS]

  think you wouldn't like but you would [TS]

  appreciate and that is football [TS]

  management games or soccer many games to [TS]

  an American yeah I quite like those I [TS]

  thought you'd like them because you [TS]

  don't actually play the game you don't [TS]

  play this off then you manage the team [TS]

  yard like I thought you liked not cannot [TS]

  stand those no those are I thought you'd [TS]

  like it cause it's like working you like [TS]

  work oriented games you see this is [TS]

  hockey okay here we just so far apart on [TS]

  so many things [TS]

  this is different to a sports video you [TS]

  did hear me you were listening to me [TS]

  that way you don't play the sport [TS]

  yeah I know what you're talking about [TS]

  and I can't go out there like the matter [TS]

  of things now they're just the worst [TS]

  just the worst the morning their book [TS]

  they're absolutely pouring i do have an [TS]

  idea to say that like as a slight is [TS]

  like tangent here even though i give you [TS]

  a hard time about your darts you know [TS]

  you're dumb sports that you like to [TS]

  watch [TS]

  video games have totally given me [TS]

  appreciation for my people like sports [TS]

  on an intrinsic level like i can i can [TS]

  understand it so much better [TS]

  years later now when I when I am not in [TS]

  school anymore like forces me to play [TS]

  sports so I feel this intense resentment [TS]

  toward it like now as an adult just [TS]

  playing video games like I can [TS]

  completely understand the whole sports [TS]

  thing both because you know with with [TS]

  certain kinds of video games pulling off [TS]

  maneuvers isn't is incredibly satisfying [TS]

  when you have a game that you can get [TS]

  better and you become more skilled at it [TS]

  like oh ok this is similar to when [TS]

  people are learning to play sports like [TS]

  it is satisfying to be able to pull off [TS]

  of maneuver well in a sport and the [TS]

  other thing which is you know you [TS]

  mentioned at the beginning that i was [TS]

  doing this this twitch livestream I [TS]

  couple days ago like just for fun and [TS]

  while i was on twitch I got sucked into [TS]

  watching this thing that I always think [TS]

  it's just so funny but like eSports and [TS]

  when people are are commenting on other [TS]

  people playing video games but like in [TS]

  real sports announcer voices and how is [TS]

  I was just on twitch and I had happened [TS]

  to call catch my eye but I i saw that go [TS]

  from there was someone commenting on a [TS]

  starcraft game like oh I used applied [TS]

  spent thousands of hours on starcraft [TS]

  let me watch and i'm watching this thing [TS]

  that people are commenting on it's like [TS]

  okay again I understand why people watch [TS]

  sports and why people will say something [TS]

  like if you ever played soccer you like [TS]

  watching soccer so much better because i [TS]

  was watching these guys play starcraft [TS]

  was like yeah I got sucked into watching [TS]

  a starcraft game for 30 minutes because [TS]

  I could appreciate when they were [TS]

  pulling off hard moves or I could [TS]

  appreciate like what is going on even if [TS]

  those players were phenomenally much [TS]

  more better at the game and I could ever [TS]

  be if I dedicated my whole life to it so [TS]

  I I they do have so much more sympathy [TS]

  for sports because of games without it [TS]

  down but I'm still gonna make fun of you [TS]

  for darts and never gonna let that go [TS]

  and i'm going to make fun of you for [TS]

  pretending to drive a vehicle on the [TS]

  road in the real world when you could [TS]

  actually [TS]

  just do it it's so satisfying now it's [TS]

  so satisfying [TS]

  I could get into that one like I say the [TS]

  appeal at one but i want i'll talk to [TS]

  them at that game is in no small part [TS]

  some some amount of self-medication [TS]

  because i really want to be doing is [TS]

  driving across America but that's again [TS]

  like is is the responsibilities of adult [TS]

  life and adult time constraints I can't [TS]

  actually just ditch my whole life and go [TS]

  drive across America for six weeks so [TS]

  the best thing that I'm going to be able [TS]

  to do is to do it virtually [TS]