Cortex 15: Tempest in a Teapot


  so Mike can you explain beard oil to me I can try I noticed a new trend in the [TS]

  red which i'm kind of I'm I'm really proud of people have identified me as a [TS]

  hipster now it's not something that concerns me because I i self-identify in [TS]

  some ways to have hit two tendencies my music pitchfork festival you know this [TS]

  is no secret I think if we go back to maybe the second or third episode you [TS]

  self-identify as a hipster is not like a secret what's really happening is that [TS]

  people have been listening long enough that they feel that they can openly [TS]

  tease you about it in the red that's what's happening so people were [TS]

  mentioning bid oil in the red as a as a joke and I let people know that I used [TS]

  my beard yes and then I was deeply confused because I thought beard oil was [TS]

  the joke that oh mike is mike is such a hipster that like an eighteenth-century [TS]

  gentleman he is shining up his beard with some kind of beer Doyle that [TS]

  obviously no modern person would use so that's why when you jumped in and said [TS]

  oh yes I do use beard while I was confused I just think it can't possibly [TS]

  be what I have in my mind so I need to know what it really is it is oil spray [TS]

  into my hand from a little container and then rub it on my beard to make my bed [TS]

  soft and shiny although I actually use a combination of beard moisturizing oil [TS]

  together and i mix them up in my hands and then my face I have in some of the [TS]

  meetings that mean you've had i've been freshly moisturised oil the morning ok [TS]

  ok so I'm thinking I'm thinking this is like shampoo and conditioner for your [TS]

  hair but it sounds like not because you wouldn't wash it out in the shower now [TS]

  it is meant to be put on off the show [TS]

  some people use be at shampoo I don't do that just use regular shampoo for your [TS]

  beard only when it's super super long but not right now is too short now you [TS]

  gonna be messing with the pH balance you don't think about these things [TS]

  okay okay so it's it's I'm driving this way it's like my face moisturizer but [TS]

  forbearance and your beard hair needs this because beard hair is rougher than [TS]

  head hair is that is that why this is a yeah you've got to take care of it if [TS]

  you want to look good as it would just get electricity and dry clean and do you [TS]

  put anything in your head you use any kind of hair product now nothing no ok [TS]

  well you know you know that people do right in the world like they put yeah I [TS]

  also currently great I using a sea salt spray in my head [TS]

  that's my current have provided I enjoy the sea spray ok this is true I I just [TS]

  accepted as true I don't know anymore what things you make up and what things [TS]

  you don't it's all just it's all just true hipster stuff [TS]

  the way that it sounds I went to my body yesterday this is not a sponsorship or [TS]

  promotion but I really like my barber its chain London Murdoch and go there [TS]

  and go in and I see the guys that cuts and it looks like an old like you know [TS]

  an all-star barbershop go there and they give me whiskey if I want it or beer and [TS]

  I go and get my haircut on the guy and then I have [TS]

  occur hot towel on the face kind of scenario and shape of the cut-throat [TS]

  razor its my pampering it's it's an ongoing get a little fancy coffee [TS]

  afterwards as my life's great the joke in the reddit we're all the cortex cool [TS]

  kids hang out what is that relay desperately needs a podcast called beard [TS]

  with Mike and some other hipster close to me like this is just inevitable now [TS]

  that within the year there's going to be a beard podcast there's a pen podcast so [TS]

  I don't see why there can't be cured podcast on relay my only concern with [TS]

  these people tend not to like it gets too long and if I had appeared podcast I [TS]

  would grow my beard very long as I I am happiest when my beard is big but most [TS]

  people in my life tend not to like that yeah I've seen you with a beard that is [TS]

  what I would think of as far too big but you seem like a happy guy you saw me [TS]

  before the day before I went to get my beard cut last time it was it was an [TS]

  animal living inside there at one point it was a it was a bit much [TS]

  gets to slickly transition things are you going to get your beard nicely [TS]

  trimmed and done up are you going to go to you our little spot somewhere to get [TS]

  all pampered before your talk at the release notes conference that you're [TS]

  going to soon [TS]

  exactly what I did yesterday going away on Tuesday so you have a mic right now I [TS]

  get nervous big talk here the keynote speaker at this conference that's that's [TS]

  coming up I'm trying to imagine myself doing well trying to just implant that [TS]

  thought into my brain of me being on stage doing really really well but it is [TS]

  a little bit nerve-wracking I feel prepared not as prepared as it could be [TS]

  but I still have more time but I feel pretty prepared I put that all together [TS]

  using it are presented it to my girlfriend [TS]

  who is provides good criticism where where needed she'd just hide behind us [TS]

  stuff so I feel I feel like I'm ironing out some kinks yeah it should be fun [TS]

  this is being recorded before hands and then we will see how it goes after hand [TS]

  on the next episode of court time yes and because podcast exists in this is [TS]

  our time at some point in the future when both episodes around people who are [TS]

  listening to this episode right now can just jump to the next episode to hear [TS]

  how it went [TS]

  that they want like time travel in the worst possible way [TS]

  yeah in in a totally ineffective you can't bet on anything kind of way but [TS]

  I'm I'm gonna bet on you doing well Mike but we'll find out I appreciate that [TS]

  thank you to you finally found a good use for mine that I don't know if I [TS]

  would say that I have found a good use for my maps because I don't use my maps [TS]

  but there was a thing that happened on Twitter which I would classify as [TS]

  mindmap follow-up that I was really enjoying I don't remember exactly who [TS]

  started it but someone made a mind map showing the connection of all of the [TS]

  various hosts in a corner of the podcast universe and I thought oh this is a [TS]

  thing that I find really interesting and I wanted to encourage it so i retweeted [TS]

  it and then over the next few hours we were getting several different versions [TS]

  of people intensely trying to mind map out show all of the connections in the [TS]

  greater podcast universe and I found this this thing just delightful I like [TS]

  how you say hours this lasted four days ahead it sometimes they don't go on to [TS]

  it for a while [TS]

  know I was getting these days and days as people 101 up themselves to this one [TS]

  that you've picked out the shona which is just ridiculous [TS]

  open this up now so I can look at it because at least the last time I looked [TS]

  I thought this was probably the best one because trying to mind map out the [TS]

  podcast universe [TS]

  is a is a challenge in information display yeah how can you do it so that [TS]

  it is comprehensible and that it is follow Apple and also comprehensive it's [TS]

  not an easy thing to do and this one I think achieved a nice balance of having [TS]

  lots and lots of podcast to look at and also being relatively clear to actually [TS]

  look at this is by follow on Twitter I like this quite a lot although the only [TS]

  thing I was thinking about what these mind maps as you do have a bit of a [TS]

  problem of whether or not you should count hosts or guests on show my feeling [TS]

  is that the only way to make it sensible is to talk about permanent hosts and [TS]

  there's enough overlap in the podcast world that hosts doing multiple shows is [TS]

  enough of a thing that you can just about connect up everybody but then you [TS]

  get into the question of what is a host what's a permanent person on a show and [TS]

  at the center of this mind map is the incomparable radio theatre which the [TS]

  alleged cheating a little bit to me because it doesn't exactly have hosts [TS]

  its like an old timey radio show that draws from a lot of different places so [TS]

  it is rather relatively super connected in the center but I'm I'm on the edge [TS]

  about whether or not all those connections should counts by for example [TS]

  I'm connected to the rate is it and I'm I'm in it but not credited oh really [TS]

  yeah I have a couple of like any random lines here and there I prefer something [TS]

  more fun i think im going to be reprising my role is now an soon [TS]

  oh wow that's very exciting background person number for yes I highly encourage [TS]

  these podcasting mind map now the thing that's encourage them to to end now I'm [TS]

  happy that exists no more [TS]

  overthrew Mike I want to take this year's we're going to take this and I [TS]

  think you're gonna like it you're gonna like it but this makes me think of is [TS]

  six degrees of Kevin Bacon about the connections between all of these people [TS]

  who are hosting various shows like this what I want when I want is someone to do [TS]

  a six degrees of Mike Hurley database I think you are a good person to be the [TS]

  Kevin Bacon of podcasts yeah I really want this to happen this is a chris is a [TS]

  great because you have been on enough podcasts with enough people that you are [TS]

  highly connected six degrees of Kevin Bacon works because kevin bacon in is [TS]

  not like is not the hugest super star of the movie world like it's interesting [TS]

  how connected Kevin Bacon is and so I think it was six degrees of ira glass [TS]

  would be deeply uninteresting to me to be like pouring like I don't really care [TS]

  at all so I'm 16 degrees of my curly I wanted database somewhere where we can [TS]

  type in podcast people and see how many connections to my curly or be able to [TS]

  type in podcast people and see how many connections to connect each other that's [TS]

  that's where I want this to go that's the next step people this episode of [TS]

  cortex is brought to you by cloak VPN is 2015 five years after the year we may [TS]

  contact or was supposed to make contact at any rate and yet even today a huge [TS]

  percentage of our online communication isn't secure protocols like HTTP SNT [TS]

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  cortex to get started and stay safe online today we took very quickly about [TS]

  the fact that you're a Mac exploded ok didn't explode [TS]

  well I mean I feel like probably something inside it that's the way I [TS]

  imagined it when computers go wrong inside that's what happens on slaughter [TS]

  I love to smoke two tops I'll be billions more like that sad sound that [TS]

  some Macs make when you force quit them by holding down the power button which [TS]

  I'm convinced some Apple engineer did on purpose [TS]

  talking about like two pieces smash into each other inside ok I don't know what [TS]

  kind of made of gears Mac you're using over there [TS]

  steampunk but several of the max I have owned I noticed they all make this sound [TS]

  when they get into a state where it's frozen there's nothing you can do except [TS]

  hold down the power button and it's a sound like I think it is designed to [TS]

  sound like you have wounded animal because Apple doesn't want you to do it [TS]

  very often I swear that they have engineered it on purpose because I feel [TS]

  bad everytime I do it as like runaway don't feel bad this is an inanimate [TS]

  object but it still at that leads into that part of your brain but the long and [TS]

  the short of it is I had what I believe is an HFS plus error totally true in my [TS]

  main computer and so right now I'm talking to you on my little laptop [TS]

  because it is a working computer that I happened to have but yes it is a a tale [TS]

  of woe about what happened to me and my computer one day when I was just minding [TS]

  my own business do you have plans in place to deal with these such things do [TS]

  you have a backup plans or do you just be like that now then no more work well [TS]

  this is exactly the case of two is one in one is none because my life now [TS]

  requires that I have access to a working computer and I have always been aware [TS]

  that having the laptop in my coworking space acts as an emergency backup to the [TS]

  main computer in my house should anything happen to it and this is [TS]

  exactly what has been the case that I'm talking to you right now the laptop is [TS]

  on the table and I have the big dead black screen behind that likes looming [TS]

  over the laptop screen looking at me [TS]

  so it this is exactly what this moment is planned for end and this this thing [TS]

  that you can do where you kind of shuffle down hardware into other uses as [TS]

  you acquire new hardware this is the moment that pays off when the newest [TS]

  version breaks because you have a fallback and even fill in for him to [TS]

  give barbaric trying to work and do the podcast stuff on this laptop because the [TS]

  screen just seems unusually small for all of the stuff that I'm used to when [TS]

  I'm doing a podcast it is accomplished able though I've recorded an episode of [TS]

  hello internet on that recording on cortex now and I'm going to be short the [TS]

  recording hello internet again and it doesn't interrupts the workflow because [TS]

  the big computer if that was my only computer it would be a real problem this [TS]

  week to not have it available but we just wouldn't be able to do this [TS]

  yeah that's what that's what I mean we have to like run out and just spend some [TS]

  time getting and setting up a brand new Mac and even though the thing broke I [TS]

  just haven't had time to be able to dedicate to try to fix it because other [TS]

  things need to happen like shows are scheduled projects are due like things [TS]

  need to keep moving and for the time being I just need to grab the laptop and [TS]

  go buy a new computer [TS]

  yeah I have ordered avoided a new computer because in some ways this [TS]

  disaster couldn't have happened at a better time because it happened on [TS]

  Friday I think and they were rumors on the wind that Apple was going to happen [TS]

  announcements early in the week about new iMac computers available and so that [TS]

  ok well I don't really have time to fix this right now I might as well wait and [TS]

  just see and of course they did come out with new iMacs right time to do this [TS]

  right away so I have one being shipped to me as we speak [TS]

  did you lose any data ok so here's the thing that needs little bit of [TS]

  explaining I mentioned before that I believe I had with HFS plus they're on [TS]

  the computer I'm gonna talk about HIV [TS]

  + briefly I'm gonna let you might find all of the shows where John Siracusa [TS]

  talks about HFS plus and what is terrible about it in vastly better [TS]

  detail that I am going to describe here the people who want to check that out [TS]

  can go find it in the show notes but very briefly there's this kind of [TS]

  problem that can happen on a computer where if you think about it there's [TS]

  three parts to using a computer there's the program that you're using there's [TS]

  the operating system and there's the physical hard drive [TS]

  upon which the data is stored and so that's how you doing something like [TS]

  you're editing a picture and you say that this picture I'm going to make some [TS]

  changes minute change the contrast in the color and you click Save and what [TS]

  happens then is the program tell the operating system I'm saving this file [TS]

  and the operating system tells the hard drive right down this information that [TS]

  has changed and hard drive is supposed to do that perfectly fine the way Apple [TS]

  happens to structure their operating system is that there is not an extra [TS]

  layer of check here so what happens is when the operating system says write [TS]

  down this series of numbers hard drive and the hard drive [TS]

  writes down those series of numbers there's no moment where the operating [TS]

  system does what any person trying to say read a credit card number over a [TS]

  telephone line would do which is asked the hard drive [TS]

  hey could you read back those numbers so that I can check with the photo editing [TS]

  program that the numbers were the same could you read that back just once and [TS]

  don't worry about the noise in the background that won't affect anything [TS]

  yet exactly and when you consider that over the lifetime of the computer it is [TS]

  not improbable that you have written trillions of ones and zeros to the hard [TS]

  drive and has to get it right every single time without checking it's going [TS]

  to get it wrong at some point so I had an error pop up on my computer where [TS]

  basically said hey the number of files that we expect to be in this folder is [TS]

  not the number of files that are in this folder and so I thought [TS]

  oh that's an HFS plus error and looking back on it the thing that i mentioned in [TS]

  the previous podcast about iTunes not having anything in its folder that was [TS]

  probably a sign that there was something screwed up with HFS plus file system on [TS]

  my computer right that's exactly the kind of thing that you would expect if [TS]

  the hard drive is making mistakes writing down what the operating system [TS]

  is telling it to do yes when you just made that big sounded like that was [TS]

  exactly the sound I made when I first discovered this error was occurring so [TS]

  the reason the reason that I tell this long story is so that you dear listener [TS]

  can understand that there's a kind of error that can happen where it is not [TS]

  obvious for a long time that an error has happened because it's not until you [TS]

  go look at your files and try to open them but you will discover that the hard [TS]

  drive didn't write things down correctly the first time and either the file is [TS]

  not open a bowl or something and it has been destroyed and had a couple the [TS]

  little areas like that happen on my computer I went to open a file and it [TS]

  would just not open huh so I should have noticed this sooner now the terrifying [TS]

  thing mike is I have depending on how you want it counted quadruple or [TS]

  quintuple backup systems in place for the data that I use I have various [TS]

  offline backup systems I have various local backup systems but when in HFS [TS]

  plus error occurs it I get spread out and corrupts all of the possible backups [TS]

  that exists so the answer to your question did I lose data is yes but I [TS]

  don't know how much and there is no way to resolve this problem so I found [TS]

  excluding iTunes the whole thing that I lost I found two things that were [TS]

  definitely corrupted by HFS plus [TS]

  which were not able to be recovered from backup because the backups just copy the [TS]

  corrupted version and it was I wasn't able to go back and back in time for [TS]

  enough to get an uncorrupted version because that's what happens but this is [TS]

  not the backup software spot like nobody has any way to know that these areas are [TS]

  there and so they're just like ok I'm just copying the data to do all of this [TS]

  could be fixed if Apple changed the way the structure writing data to hard [TS]

  drives and the system is very old and every year I hope that they're going to [TS]

  change this but it hasn't happened so far so the answer is I may have huge [TS]

  amounts of data that are corrupted and I just don't know but I have found two big [TS]

  things so far that have been lost and it's like oh god this is this is going [TS]

  to be fun over the next six months [TS]

  slowly learning what things have been corrupted and what things haven't and [TS]

  seeing if I have an old backup somewhere of the encrypted thing so like Time [TS]

  Machine or Dropbox version can't help or can they help leaders don't know so that [TS]

  by the time that you get to it might be too late by the time I get to it it [TS]

  might be too late but you may ask yourself why would have men have [TS]

  quintupled the redundant backup systems why it seems like it's too many and the [TS]

  answer is in my experience when one thing goes wrong you're almost always [TS]

  guaranteed that something else has gone wrong at the same time and the thing [TS]

  that went wrong for me here is that my Time Machine when this happened was not [TS]

  yet complete it had done one of these things like it started over and it was [TS]

  in the middle of trying to rights several terabytes of data brand new to a [TS]

  time machine drive and I didn't know that it hadn't caught up that it wasn't [TS]

  fully in place so the very day that my computer goes down is the same day that [TS]

  I realize I don't have a complete Time Machine backup [TS]

  so anyway that's my long story about I don't know if I've lost data or not we [TS]

  will see isn't it though and there's nothing you can do about it so I have [TS]

  had a taste of your world [TS]

  YouTube yes yes cause access to YouTube channel some people like this shows [TS]

  there is also good for people to find the show as well you had previously been [TS]

  home to YouTube channel but as was agreed of us you handed over the keys to [TS]

  me after doing a couple of them and you create a tutorial video for me so I [TS]

  could understand what I needed to do I don't think there's anything about this [TS]

  process that I like so first off I had to buy final cut pro but she's not the [TS]

  actual creation in the videos is mostly fine but final cut produces ungodly file [TS]

  sizes I don't know what it's doing to create the file size is that it created [TS]

  the project files like a good gillian terabytes it's ridiculous that just so [TS]

  large that this is an audio file and and and have one screenshot just extended [TS]

  across the audio file but it's like 15 gigabytes and what do you do that is the [TS]

  funny thing to me because I was just working on the internet YouTube channel [TS]

  earlier this morning and creating the next video for that because I do manage [TS]

  to YouTube version of that for hello internet which is one of the reasons why [TS]

  I was very happy to pass the court six channel onto you were first talking [TS]

  about who would do what they're all these things are like you do that you'll [TS]

  do that I think every great for you to learn more about video don't you make a [TS]

  great practice yeah exactly but so yeah I I made a video for the internet [TS]

  channel this morning and when I exported from Final Cut Pro it was thirty eight [TS]

  gigabytes in size and I got a large but these I can understand it because [TS]

  there's something moving on the screen but yes when you upload the ones for [TS]

  cortex and it pops out at fifteen gigabytes and it's a fun moving image [TS]

  for the duration [TS]

  maybe someone has an optimized the compression over there at Final Cut [TS]

  headquarters that one of the things I did to get them down as I didn't go with [TS]

  your crazy settings I just a great trip to screen calls on which is very helpful [TS]

  and in it you mentioned how much I do this case you really don't need to do [TS]

  that because I every time I was creating a video I had to delete things from my [TS]

  hard drive this this is untenable so I'm not gonna do that how do you feel about [TS]

  the consistency of YouTube interface to enjoy the back end of that process of [TS]

  ripping all the switches to get it ready to go to YouTube interface is exactly [TS]

  what I imagined but ten times worse which is in some watches it is a system [TS]

  which clearly things have just been bolted on overtime and every time they [TS]

  added a new feature they do not consider the other features that came before it [TS]

  so one of the things that exemplifies the most is the cards and annotations [TS]

  apps welcome welcome to YouTube make so I had heard you radio talk about this [TS]

  stuff on her internet in the past I think when cards first came out and you [TS]

  were doing tests right to see what worked and what didn't [TS]

  yes I cannot for the life of me understand why these are different [TS]

  things [TS]

  my other two different things so for the listeners will mike is talking about [TS]

  here is on YouTube has a video creator you can create a section of the screen [TS]

  which is clickable for the user to listen to the latest show of cortex and [TS]

  there's a rectangle that overlays on the video that you can click on and then the [TS]

  person goes to the web page that you want to send them to but this thing [TS]

  where you draw little rectangle on the screen it only works on the desktop if [TS]

  you watch that video on your mobile device [TS]

  you're not going to see [TS]

  that rectangle it just doesn't work and for years and years [TS]

  YouTube creators were asking YouTube hey can you make annotations work on mobile [TS]

  because mobile is now a half the traffic of YouTube it's it's just enormous so if [TS]

  you look dominant video when you tell people to click on something and half of [TS]

  them are watching on an iPhone and there's no way for them to click on it [TS]

  sounds stupid click this below heads nothing's nothing very you to be things [TS]

  people say click on my face right and and go to the thing but ok but there's [TS]

  nothing that you can do but so rather than make annotations work on YouTube [TS]

  there were there were whispers on the wind for quite a while that for whatever [TS]

  reason YouTube had decided that they were never going to do this they were [TS]

  never going to make annotations work so they introduced this entire parallel [TS]

  system called cards which works on mobile and on the desktop and which it's [TS]

  so hard to even describe what it does but it it pops up like a little button [TS]

  on the top in the same place every time on the video that someone can click on [TS]

  if they're on the desktop or a tap on if they're on their mobile device and then [TS]

  go to the link between the two step process you have to click on the button [TS]

  and then you have to click on the link that opens up on the side I think are [TS]

  done terribly but the bottom line is if you are a modern YouTube creator you [TS]

  have to do both of these things if you want to know that everybody can click [TS]

  most conveniently on a thing on the screen [TS]

  you are you dear Mike are enjoying this now but having to do with seems like you [TS]

  should be only doing one thing but you end up doing two things and one that is [TS]

  like this is this is a solution to the problem that creates another problem [TS]

  it's not actually solution it's just a thing that create more problems because [TS]

  now we have to do both [TS]

  talk about both it just doesn't make a sad over that because you can't put [TS]

  cards like in other places of screen like an annotation like a look at it and [TS]

  I mean I don't understand about the engineering of their out but 10 is it [TS]

  YouTube use of proprietary a proprietary video player Apps Standard AES player [TS]

  social apartments like what you just find a way to make it work [TS]

  yeah that's the whole thing it's not as though YouTube is using the default [TS]

  stuff on iOS to play videos and you get a reasonably of course you can make [TS]

  annotations work then because you're using Apple stuff you know using your [TS]

  own thing we had the whole thing is customize their own they control every [TS]

  pixel on the screen is like you can't up on the card which is on the video so why [TS]

  can't and I actually got the card is on the video why can't the entities be [TS]

  there who knows but what i think is is interesting about you doing this because [TS]

  you've never used YouTube before is what is this experience like for a new person [TS]

  I'm someone who's been doing you to 45 years and so I understand ok I get how [TS]

  we evolved to be here but how do you explain to the average person who just [TS]

  starts using YouTube for the first time why there are these two seemingly at [TS]

  first identical systems that are redundant and nowhere on the page does [TS]

  it explain the most relevant feature which is that [TS]

  annotations work on desktop only cards work on both but you probably don't want [TS]

  to use cards because almost nobody clicks on them that their click-through [TS]

  rate is terrible [TS]

  so there is no way I would have understood what to do without the video [TS]

  you made [TS]

  I seem that they have some kind of documentation but like on the face of it [TS]

  the UI and most of the experience of uploading the videos to YouTube is a [TS]

  system that you have to love but you cannot learn based on the user interface [TS]

  to your provided right you have even have to be talk or you have to go for a [TS]

  lot of trial and error and will probably I would have done is gone through a lot [TS]

  of trial and era I assume that that is what happens to the vast majority of [TS]

  users because on the flip side of this YouTube and she makes it really easy to [TS]

  just almost accidentally uploaded video and have it published immediately if [TS]

  that's the way that it is a kind of wants to go is like upload this video [TS]

  and have it published as soon as it's great to be published and go and I think [TS]

  you just learned through trial and error ok oh how do I set the title where to [TS]

  the descriptions go I want people to click on things that has to be with the [TS]

  vast majority of users do is just do something wrong and then try to realize [TS]

  for next time [TS]

  what it is that you need to do but this is why you can see that I have just for [TS]

  the Youtube upload process I think my checklist is 20 items about switches to [TS]

  flip and what box to fill in and what things that I want to put where every [TS]

  time I upload a YouTube video because it is ridiculously easy to forget some part [TS]

  of it or forget how some part of it works if you want to actually get it [TS]

  right every time I've uploaded three videos now to YouTube and every time [TS]

  I've done it following tutorial video cuz I just can't I can understand some [TS]

  of the things like you put the card in and Iniesta set the duration period [TS]

  doesn't make any sense like and then you have to start the the put the link and [TS]

  you want to verify and like this even parts of the interface IC is different [TS]

  to the interface that you're showing me which makes 0 sense because it's the [TS]

  same account [TS]

  this is one of the other things that YouTube does which is ironic their a/b [TS]

  testing or what but they often slowly rule out changes to different accounts [TS]

  and the recent and I might say disastrous update to the YouTube app on [TS]

  iOS was a great example of this where the app updated but lots of people were [TS]

  still seeing the old interface and it's like YouTube is rolling this out in [TS]

  stages and so you can as we have done this time very often run into a [TS]

  situation where two people are logged into the same account but just on [TS]

  different computers and whatever the cookie is on one computer says the [TS]

  interface is going to be slightly different than what the person sees on [TS]

  the other computer [TS]

  oh ok that's super helpful for explaining stuff and then again I can [TS]

  conceive of why YouTube does it that way but boy does it occasionally caused some [TS]

  problems like all the time I mean looks at the thing is the way that the aquatic [TS]

  videos produced we want to make them in a specific way in a specific way has [TS]

  been set by the way that you wanted to be done so I guess I was starting from [TS]

  day one I wouldn't need to do it the way they're doing it and I could learn over [TS]

  time but my issue is like in trying to make a professional-looking video there [TS]

  is a ton of stuff that I need to do I just wouldn't be able to easily work on [TS]

  my own and it's like the poor and the main problem is there is one company [TS]

  controlling this experience they can choose is not on organic thing is not [TS]

  the way it is because that's just how it is [TS]

  YouTube can make all of the changes that they want to make this experience better [TS]

  but instead they are massive company you have one team fight over cards one team [TS]

  final ever annotations yeah yeah this this is as a discussion for many people [TS]

  who make a living on the internet this is the kind of problem that you run into [TS]

  when you are dependent on someone else's platform for your business and so if you [TS]

  are dependent on YouTube for your video business which you almost certainly are [TS]

  if you're making [TS]

  videos on the internet YouTube is the place where you can make some money [TS]

  doing this you just have to use their system and if you have an idea for a [TS]

  better way for the stuff to be done well do you work at YouTube do you work [TS]

  relatively high up on youtube if the answer is no then there's nothing that [TS]

  you can do about this [TS]

  whereas I imagine someone in your position you probably have a lot more [TS]

  control over whatever system it is that you are using for your backend for [TS]

  podcasts because podcasts are not a centralized medium in the way YouTube is [TS]

  yeah I am never loved content management system more then after a video to [TS]

  YouTube now CMS is not perfect there are bugs of the things that we would prefer [TS]

  but is there something I need to be changed we just pay are developed a [TS]

  little bit of money anything changes and we've done that constantly we have [TS]

  complete control over how are these are generally it how we publish our shows I [TS]

  can't imagine now all of my content being controlled so strictly by a [TS]

  company that could make any change your decision that will affect my business [TS]

  like the more and more I know you the less I understand how you manage to do [TS]

  with us like I just can't I just cannot understand how do you reconcile this in [TS]

  your mind if I feel like it's like the the standby for flying things like that [TS]

  that that it's that part of your brain where it's like well you can accept that [TS]

  this is the way it's always been so used to it but I feel like you wouldn't maybe [TS]

  to do it today you wouldn't go to a new system like this [TS]

  well the answer is what I said before that if your business is making viral [TS]

  videos on the internet [TS]

  YouTube is really the only game in town to do that there isn't really an option [TS]

  to do this in another way and I have I have investigated all of the various [TS]

  alternatives that are out there and all of them fall down in some key feature [TS]

  that makes it impossible so I deal with YouTube's ugly backend system [TS]

  because that's just the price that I pay and for me it's a little bit different [TS]

  than it is for you because I have learned each of these pieces over time [TS]

  and so for me it's like oh YouTube changes one thing at a time here in [TS]

  there as in actually today as I mentioned doing hello Internet video I [TS]

  logged in and saw that yes YouTube had changed piece of the interface for how [TS]

  the videos are monetized ok this is just going to be different now I can I can [TS]

  just deal with that but there really isn't an alternative for posting videos [TS]

  that millions of people are going to want to watch like right in a very short [TS]

  period of time I guess it's not a is not a practical thing to try to do on your [TS]

  own and so that's why I put up with the YouTube system there's one last thing I [TS]

  want to mention of others which is the processing so when you upload a video to [TS]

  YouTube ads and then it goes into processing where it what I assume [TS]

  they're doing at this point I actually watched a video them keep the HDD about [TS]

  this one so put it in the shoulders they are taking off I'll and compressing it [TS]

  with whatever they'd used to compress it so it can be viewed at different bosses [TS]

  cause you to create a bunch different file sizes that they delivered to people [TS]

  depending on the connection that they have the best connection do you have the [TS]

  fastest speed you have the nicer resolution video will be so I seen that [TS]

  that is what the processing system is doing they're also converting it into [TS]

  whatever their standards are behind the scenes because I will give you two [TS]

  credit that they can suck in almost any kind of video and part of the processing [TS]

  is getting it all the same behind the scenes so that it will just plug into [TS]

  absolutely everywhere so you can you can throw any video at YouTube and it will [TS]

  pretty much suck it up and then spit out the different resolutions that they need [TS]

  to play across every single player so I fully understand that the system is very [TS]

  clever and make sense the problem is there's no indication of what is [TS]

  happening [TS]

  so it takes an unknown unknown amount of time to process that you upload against [TS]

  us in processing and then I got an email to Tommy the video of processed I went [TS]

  to it and it was horrible resolution so I was like oh no I've done it wrong so I [TS]

  deleted the file but what happened was it had processed but processed at 2:40 P [TS]

  just process the smaller version of it but then after that point you have no [TS]

  idea of knowing when high resolution files does nothing in the interface and [TS]

  the creative studio to tell you what's happening and what point it's just sit [TS]

  and wait and seems like such a strange way of doing things that like once it's [TS]

  uploaded it then processes and buncha stuff happens as a creator get no [TS]

  feedback as to where it is in the in the kind of this system [TS]

  yeah I ran into this when I upload my videos because try as I might to do [TS]

  things ahead of time I have almost always uploaded a video on the same day [TS]

  that I want to publish it and so the upload it goes to the processing phase [TS]

  and it's available but since I upload my animations at four K and 60 [TS]

  frames-per-second I never have any idea when that final high quality version is [TS]

  going to be available sometimes it's available in a few hours sometimes it [TS]

  takes days and sometimes I have a few older videos where it just never became [TS]

  available for whatever reason it just never got a high quality version and [TS]

  because YouTube system doesn't allow you to go back and replace videos it's just [TS]

  oh ok I guess there never will be a fork age 60 frames per second version of that [TS]

  video because who knows they're not they're not great about giving you [TS]

  feedback of an ETA for when processing will be done for all of the various file [TS]

  sizes it's just is it the whole thing about the system is it is complicated [TS]

  and also opaque in many ways and I hate it when it today did your job now now [TS]

  that Mike go out the cortex YouTube general people make me feel like this [TS]

  job is worth it [TS]

  you please just go there and do something this episode is also brought [TS]

  to you by smile and PDF Penn 74 the mac PDF pen is the ultimate all-purpose PDF [TS]

  Editor and now smile has some great tutorials from the talented mr. David [TS]

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  PDF can I be using it for a long time before smile was over a sponsor and bit [TS]

  me running my own business as we've spoken about so many times in the show I [TS]

  frequently have to sign contract or I have to take a document like a word [TS]

  document into PDF to send somebody or have to reduction text so I can send [TS]

  over a contract of some description [TS]

  all of this stuff is made so easy with PDF pen seven for the Mac and why I also [TS]

  love is I can access all of these things on the road with the iOS apps as well [TS]

  PDF pencil iPad and iPhone it really is an indispensable part of my Mac talk it [TS]

  puts fantastic power into my hands to help me get my work done and ensure that [TS]

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  software dot com slash cortex BDSM 7 a.m. PDF in process requires seventy and [TS]

  are ready for El Capitan thank you so much to smile for their continued [TS]

  support we got there [TS]

  have a protein bar here really go ahead on this on this is like in the movies [TS]

  now I'm trying to quietly unwrap something but it's totally impossible [TS]

  I'm sorry no and no one can hear this microphone doesn't pick up you know we [TS]

  get styles a day did you know that comes out on the 17th I think of 260 basically [TS]

  whenever wherever day comes out in america we can only grow UK it seems [TS]

  like they're asking the Internet to pirate that movie when they do this [TS]

  yeah I probably will not be going to see it the first day simply because of how [TS]

  many other people be tryna see the first time we have the benefit of being able [TS]

  to go like 11 a.m. [TS]

  yeah I guess you're right this is the self-employed stroke unemployed benefits [TS]

  movies at awkward times if I don't go to a midnight showing I'm just gonna go at [TS]

  like 11 a.m. the next day later today I'm going to book a ticket that time for [TS]

  James Bond you may have a point there I might follow your plan should I like to [TS]

  go to the movies now seem like the after the early afternoon did we talk about [TS]

  this time every talk about this in person or on the podcast I can't [TS]

  remember anymore [TS]

  yeah but the big advantage of when you're self-employed person is being [TS]

  able to try and arrange your life in such a way so that you are out of sync [TS]

  with the rest of the world [TS]

  yes that is it's beautiful when you can make it work [TS]

  it's amazing and I spent a lot of time figuring out what is the nadir of crowds [TS]

  at my gym and basically scheduled everything else in my life around that [TS]

  when can I walk into the gym and there is [TS]

  nobody in the back section where I go great that is now the unmovable block of [TS]

  time on my calendar and because that is slightly shifted from normal people [TS]

  patterns everything else about like getting up when I'm trying to cross the [TS]

  city it's always an hour and a half off of what everybody else wants to do [TS]

  something else it is it's beautiful couple of times in the last couple of [TS]

  weeks I've been caught in 5 p.m. rush hour traffic and I have been horrified [TS]

  by it is very is very very quickly forget what thats like and it's like oh [TS]

  my god this is terrible said the same thing happened to me actually just [TS]

  recently rush hour traffic someone might be listening to us now in rush hour [TS]

  traffic I'm sorry if you're there but when you don't have to experience it for [TS]

  a long time and then you go back it seems more horrifying like I used to do [TS]

  an hour and a half long commute and I just kind of got used to it during rush [TS]

  hour but then going back and just just having two beyond the 2 per 20 minutes [TS]

  it was it was horrifying income was when I made it to the other side it was like [TS]

  wow I got through that till I'm still here and everything there's an episode [TS]

  of Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David don't know if you've ever seen that show [TS]

  might add that to your to watch list but it is good but the basic premise is that [TS]

  Larry David is a billionaire from having written seinfeld and he lives is [TS]

  extraordinarily privileged life and at one point he's on a date with a girl and [TS]

  he's trying to tell her an impressive story and his and his impressive story [TS]

  is that he went on the subway ones end of story [TS]

  absolutely everywhere just that little bit they're the same beat in the shower [TS]

  he's expecting her to be super impressed that he took the subway ones driver I've [TS]

  heard a lot about that show but never watched it I've actually just downloaded [TS]

  some of iraq have never seen that show about done [TS]

  of my trip because somebody asked about this yesterday that the Amazon Prime [TS]

  video app lets you download videos [TS]

  planes and stuff to keep them offline yeah and like but it's not restricted [TS]

  seasons like after download multiple seasons of shows you just hit on to my [TS]

  top 35 depict three top comedies this is not in any particular order of all time [TS]

  I would say Curb Your Enthusiasm 30 rock and arrested development would be my top [TS]

  three of all time list I love Arrested Development's next thing right let's [TS]

  talk about something a little bit more meetings serious rush hour traffic and [TS]

  as a blocking [TS]

  dangerous topic Mike yeah I wanted to talk about this because it's been in the [TS]

  news recently quite a bit [TS]

  mainly because of Safari content blockers coming to iOS Apple's enabled [TS]

  people to create native ad blockers and has been hopping around that necessary [TS]

  we need to spend too much time discussing Apple's own system [TS]

  effectively it made me think about a blockers in general so I wanted to start [TS]

  off by a kind of setting the scene for both of us and then i wanna talk a [TS]

  little bit about the business impact and kind of how that fits with the stuff [TS]

  that mean you both do so do you run any at blocking software on any device yes I [TS]

  do I run blockers on my computers and now that Iowa's allows its I am running [TS]

  ad blockers on iOS devices and what do you blocking everything well I have not [TS]

  yet settled on precisely what I'm going to use on iOS still feel like the market [TS]

  is fresh and a leading contender that am also satisfied with has not been [TS]

  established for the moment I am using one blogger on iOS and I am using go [TS]

  story on the desktop those are the things that I'm using for blocking at [TS]

  the moment so I i dont know my computer I have left piece installed my comments [TS]

  peace out bitches now this is not making up from the store so different story for [TS]

  another time and I have left that installed on my phone but I don't use [TS]

  Safari on my iPhone on my iPad I use Chrome so I only ever so I don't [TS]

  actively use it but if I say I mean like Twix bar open a page [TS]

  the ads may be blocked if I'm using Safari ViewController [TS]

  so like if it's just loading with the Safari browser within but it's not even [TS]

  something I'm actively doing I just haven't turned it off I'm not trying to [TS]

  necessarily block that's right but you still are still out but not for the [TS]

  majority of my browsing and it's not really a thing that I only notice a [TS]

  couple of days ago they were still on so it's not really something that I care [TS]

  too much about I don't really feel the desire to burning burning desire to [TS]

  bloggers like many people do their few different reasons I have these very [TS]

  conflicted views on this type of stuff and it kind of in a few places that I [TS]

  feel like I sit on and understand the views of both sides in this argument [TS]

  which is the content creators the website said that putting the ads on why [TS]

  they're doing it and then also the readers and users of the site and [TS]

  products [TS]

  who are trying to just get to the content ads blocking so for example [TS]

  couple weeks ago I spent 15 minutes trying to read an article on the web [TS]

  without my attention being pulled away by a flashing banner at [TS]

  so I was just trying to read an article on a website and there was a banner ad [TS]

  that was just flashing in my eyes and I was trying to do everything to try and [TS]

  not seen as better try to read the pager tried reloading a bunch of time place [TS]

  and manner and then try to load it into paper but that website was doing [TS]

  something in so much that if I load it in the paper it wouldn't load images so [TS]

  I ended up having to read i refresh the page enough times they just gave me a [TS]

  banner ad static and then I could read the article you're burning through their [TS]

  ad inventory I suck I don't care that the ad is dead I just wanted at that is [TS]

  not actively trying to distract me right as one of flashing banner ad is doing [TS]

  and that's where you end up in the problem in that the ads and maybe the [TS]

  sales teams of these websites or the other sides of that person's brain cells [TS]

  part of their brain what makes them put these hands on this site are there now [TS]

  to actively try to grab our attention and pull it away from the content is [TS]

  being presented [TS]

  it happens with ads slide in from the side from the bottom obscure content and [TS]

  kind of stuff this is kind of the practices in web sites today where as a [TS]

  trying to obscure the page in some way to cover up the content so you can't [TS]

  avoid it now I wanted to just come back in a moment but I wanted to segue into [TS]

  in my mind how I have reconciled the advertising that we have against what I [TS]

  don't like about weapons so I make my living on podcasting and my podcasting [TS]

  living comes from the advertisements that we have on the show's now our ads [TS]

  are there but there are a couple of different things about the way that we [TS]

  do our ads [TS]

  the majority of ads that we do and sold by me if they're not stop by me they're [TS]

  sold by somebody else on the relay team that is the way that was now we have [TS]

  some agreements or some other parties but we still have a control of the way [TS]

  of what adds a book and the content of the advertisement so we don't have a [TS]

  dedicated sales team who's just trying to fill them entry so we have since we [TS]

  have a strong element of control over the advertisement we take and also our [TS]

  shows are structured around the advertisement sports so let there is an [TS]

  ad playing right now as I'm talking that is trying to hide what I'm saying there [TS]

  is an ad that pops in half way for a sentence you know like we on this show [TS]

  we play a little sound effects which clearly denote that had started on other [TS]

  shows I would sail to say ok we're gonna take time for a break to thank our [TS]

  sponsor and its in such a way to let you know we might tease what's gonna come up [TS]

  after the sponsor or whatever but there isn't which we're not trying to like [TS]

  distract the listener or to pull them away from the content and that's why [TS]

  should the differences because I don't care that the web has ads on it I just [TS]

  care of those ads are going against what I am in 10 [TS]

  thing to do on a site that is kind of my feeling about advertising online and how [TS]

  I reconcile against the way that I make money right but it's just the way that I [TS]

  have come to terms of why I'm happy with what we do [TS]

  compared to this is one of these topics that I am I am convinced that people get [TS]

  in a real state about it in no small part because it's fundamentally [TS]

  impossible to have a perfectly consistent opinion on it it's such a [TS]

  messy topic that extends to so many things it's it's very very hard to have [TS]

  something that is consistent all the way through so for example even your opinion [TS]

  which i think is very well stated I don't like the ads that are distracting [TS]

  and I don't mind the other ads the practicality of it is there is no way [TS]

  for you right now to have an ad blocker that says only distract the top twenty [TS]

  percent of the worst of the worst ads and let everything through that ad [TS]

  blocker doesn't exist and it would be hard to imagine how it could practically [TS]

  exist [TS]

  given the large number of ad networks out there and constantly changing [TS]

  tactics and all the rest of it so you are in a situation where if you're using [TS]

  any ad blocker there is in a sense of collateral damage that you don't want to [TS]

  happen in theory but that you can't help from having happened if you are using an [TS]

  ad blocker and so that's why it's it is a very very hard to have an opinion on [TS]

  this topic which is perfectly consistent with how you're acting or how you want [TS]

  things to be and I think that's one of the reasons why people get really upset [TS]

  about it and they have these conversations about locking in regards [TS]

  to the way that you make money [TS]

  maybe majority or at least a big portion of your money from advertising but the [TS]

  advertising that you do you don't handle any other but it comes in different ways [TS]

  so you have the podcast ads when you have known individuals selling for you [TS]

  and then you have the you too thats so I'm in a bit of an interesting position [TS]

  here because I'm on both sides of this whereas you do you make your income from [TS]

  advertising but it's also not the kind of advertising which is blocked by ad [TS]

  blockers as it exists right now there are no podcast clients which [TS]

  automatically skip TiVo like the ads that are in the middle of podcasts you [TS]

  could imagine such a thing [TS]

  existing but it doesn't exist at the moment so I do make a portion of my [TS]

  income from the YouTube ads that appear at the start of my youtube videos so if [TS]

  you click on one of my videos [TS]

  not every time but some portion of the time there will be a video before that [TS]

  and it's usually one of those videos that you wait five seconds and you skip [TS]

  or you don't skip but that's an ad that makes up a portion of my income and [TS]

  those are exactly the kind of ads that are blocked by bloggers so we can say [TS]

  that in a real way some portion of my revenue is lost out upon because some [TS]

  portion of the ads are being blocked from people who are watching my video on [TS]

  desktop computers and and on the flip side I also make advertising income in [TS]

  the same way that you do with podcast where they're not blocked [TS]

  so I've been thinking I've been thinking a lot about this and it's it's a tricky [TS]

  topic however I feel like this latest round of people freaking out about ad [TS]

  blockers is a bit of a tempest in a teapot I think this is really overblown [TS]

  in very many waves and the reason I think that is precisely because I look [TS]

  at the ads that appear automatically on my YouTube channel and if I go back over [TS]

  the four years that I've been doing this in terms of the number of dollars I [TS]

  received per 10,000 views on YouTube it doesn't seem like it's changed over time [TS]

  it doesn't seem like it's gone dramatically down it's not as though the [TS]

  number of people who use desktop computers are constantly increasing [TS]

  without blockers right doesn't it seems like some portion of the population some [TS]

  technically savvy and also probably distractible or just able to to [TS]

  accomplish this thing some portion of the population installs ad blockers and [TS]

  maybe that's ten percent maybe it's 15% it's hard to know what that what that [TS]

  number is but it seems like once you hit that saturation point ad blockers don't [TS]

  continue to spread we don't end up in a situation where year-on-year it seems [TS]

  like a higher portion of people are using ad blockers and so I can only [TS]

  assume that on iOS this is going to be the same pattern I think one of the [TS]

  things that come about [TS]

  irrespective of how many people now in storage lockers although it is [TS]

  undeniable that there are more people now that block out and they were before [TS]

  any changes more people write write any changes more people but that's i in some [TS]

  ways I don't know how many more people that would be because the way I look at [TS]

  it is especially with you too we can see that over time a higher and higher [TS]

  proportion of people are watching videos on mobile and that number just seems to [TS]

  keep going up [TS]

  up and I can only imagine that the same people who installed ad blockers on [TS]

  their desktop who used to watch videos on their desktop and you are now [TS]

  watching videos on mobile if they have the option to be able to block those ads [TS]

  they will take that option to block those ads [TS]

  irrespective of the fact of how many people using them [TS]

  has raised a new topic is one of the things that end up becoming a bit of a [TS]

  meme on the internet now people are thinking about advertising and they get [TS]

  outset web ads and you know people saying that there has to be a change in [TS]

  that kind of thing I've registries struggle with I really struggle with it [TS]

  because if you block ads and you rally people around you to block as you're [TS]

  affecting the livelihoods of people that don't have control and like writers [TS]

  journalists people like me who just want to make stuff and and they care about [TS]

  what they make and they just wanna have a place to put it more and more the [TS]

  stuff gets blocked the harder harder it is for people to make money in this way [TS]

  and that makes me feel uncomfortable ok I know what you're saying I know what [TS]

  you're saying but I'm not sold on this story though it when I said before that [TS]

  it's a bit of a tempest in a teapot I think that in some ways what's happening [TS]

  here is a bit of almost a bit of a must like the same kind of distortion that I [TS]

  have complained about with the News where the news in general focuses on [TS]

  things not in proportion to what they actually are and so with the ad blocker [TS]

  thing if you imagine say there was a flu going around the world that happened to [TS]

  only affect people who work in television newsrooms and in newspapers [TS]

  nobody else would catch the flu only they would I think you would hear a hell [TS]

  of a lot about this flu going around and how important it is that we figure out [TS]

  how to come up with a cure for preventive medicine for this flu [TS]

  because the people that it affects are the ones with huge megaphones and so the [TS]

  ad blocking thing i think is a bit like this where companies that are going to [TS]

  experience some decrease in mobile revenue which I'm not convinced is going [TS]

  to be a huge number decrease in mobile revenue they also have enormous [TS]

  megaphones to complain about it you're just hearing a lot about this in way [TS]

  disproportionate to what it actually is because even when you say someone like [TS]

  you or me we're going to be affected by this [TS]

  like straight up I am NOT going to be affected by this [TS]

  they give if many more people use ad blockers it won't it won't affect my [TS]

  business very much because I have tried to diversify the business to protect [TS]

  against this of course the thing that people would say is not everyone is able [TS]

  to diversify his way I have set up a petri on account and explicitly one of [TS]

  my rewards is adblock absolution which is the lowest the lowest tier if someone [TS]

  gives me a dollar when I put out a video it's a bit of a joke I could they have [TS]

  adblock absolution from me if a blocking is going to affect any kind of company [TS]

  it seems to me that the the places that are affected the most are just like [TS]

  these were the worst kind of aggregator websites that are on the internet [TS]

  websites that they don't particularly have any individual that you really care [TS]

  about their websites that are just producing an enormous amount of semi [TS]

  anonymous content I think those are the same kinds of sites that would have a [TS]

  very hard time ever transitioning to any sort of membership model which is [TS]

  something that you see a lot of websites doing so for example [TS]

  VTG over at MAC stories he recently started up a membership model many many [TS]

  websites are starting at the membership model in addition to advertising as a [TS]

  way to diversify but a membership model it works best if you are producing [TS]

  things that some group of people [TS]

  intensely care about and I think one of the ways that you that you get followers [TS]

  were readers who intensely care about a thing is you're producing stuff that is [TS]

  very high quality or you're producing stuff where people feel like they know [TS]

  you and they like the thing that you are producing so if you are let's say a news [TS]

  website where it twenty percent of people start using ad blockers if your [TS]

  revenue goes down 20% and that's really damaging to your business and you're [TS]

  also not able to convince any users to sign up for any kind of membership I [TS]

  feel like yours was a business on the edge already fundamentally if you can't [TS]

  transition to other sources of revenue it's in no small part because like [TS]

  nobody really cares a lot about the thing that you're making you're just [TS]

  you're just another news aggregator or reprint err on the Internet [TS]

  you're not a thing that people like enough to sign up for a membership I can [TS]

  I understand what you're saying and I get where you're coming from but the [TS]

  fact of the matter is every individual that blocks ads is one individual who [TS]

  will not be contributing money towards the website to any website so let's [TS]

  let's pick you know we will create a website called this merge [TS]

  excellent choice excellent choice this merger is a technology news website [TS]

  which is a very very large and thus merge employees a bunch of people who [TS]

  really care about what they do [TS]

  and they use ads on their website now they are not a news aggregator day [TS]

  create content which is i believe i would believe it's such a website [TS]

  existed is very good and I like it but they also have terrible ads in some [TS]

  places and if the smudge has a million readers a day and 10% of those people [TS]

  call a menace 10 percent of their income that they lose and every single person [TS]

  everyone individual ads and contributes towards this so this organization now [TS]

  makes less money than they needed and a lot of these companies they probably [TS]

  would assume spend what comes in so they end up in a scenario where they have [TS]

  less money than they did before but everybody still going to the website [TS]

  that just blocking the ads now and now this company's suffering because of that [TS]

  and yes they may mean using as a great but they are the ads they exist because [TS]

  it's the only adds that they can use to fulfill the money they need as a reader [TS]

  of this merge my question is if you are continuing to go to their website and [TS]

  read the content will give you the right to think you can get it for free [TS]

  ok so I was talking before about how it's very difficult to have a morally [TS]

  consistent opinions on this topic that I think it's it's fundamentally impossible [TS]

  there's a there is a level to this argument which i think is is a level [TS]

  kind of a level above what is happening in the particulars without blocking and [TS]

  it's it's one of the things that over the past year I think I really really [TS]

  come down on it or clarified my thoughts on this which is why I'm sure I'll try [TS]

  to give a good comparison but it's it's almost like the United States law when [TS]

  you have tricky court cases one of the things that judges will try to do is [TS]

  they say okay well let's let's try to look at the constitution and what are [TS]

  the broad principles of the Constitution is laying out and let's try to not get [TS]

  mired down in the details of this I almost feel like there's a kind of [TS]

  implied technology constitution and if if if I were writing it I would have one [TS]

  of those elements be that a user should have control in as much as is possible [TS]

  over the machine that they are using if there's a case that's very complicated [TS]

  and it's on the edge you should care in favor of the user having control over [TS]

  their machine and I think this is one of these cases where I would err on the [TS]

  side of the user having control so that yes there is there is kind of no moral [TS]

  argument to say I am correct in that I should be able to view a website without [TS]

  having to participate in the implied contract reviewing the ads I don't think [TS]

  you can make an argument for that [TS]

  well it's not right I wouldn't go so far as to say it's dealing but it I think it [TS]

  falls into the category of things that are like copyright infringement not [TS]

  stealing but not great but nonetheless I am more in favor of users being able to [TS]

  control their machines and I think that ad blocking is one version of that where [TS]

  it's like ok fundamentally what's happening here is that my computer is [TS]

  receiving data from another computer [TS]

  and I wish to manipulate that data in some way and I'm going to come down on [TS]

  that side if the situation is unclear like that I think that would be one of [TS]

  my more guiding principles but it doesn't mean that everybody is happy [TS]

  that that principle absolutely means that some people will be upset but it's [TS]

  kind of like freedom of speech in in america right freedom of speech doesn't [TS]

  mean that everybody's happy that's not what is trying to achieve but it's like [TS]

  a guiding principle for difficult decisions she talking about control I am [TS]

  in the control of your machine so I I think the implied are you making the [TS]

  control is that you get to write enable in a blocker yeah basically that's [TS]

  that's what I'm saying what if the control is you just don't go to the [TS]

  website without a doubt that is an option right user can say I'm simply not [TS]

  going to visit the website and that that can definitely be their behavior but I'm [TS]

  trying to take the difficult case hear of someone is explicitly saying no I [TS]

  want to go to the website I want to visit this marriage everyday I want to [TS]

  click Refresh hundreds of times and I never want to see a single ad on this [TS]

  merge and I'm saying that ok even in that situation if we have to make a [TS]

  broad decision I think it is it is better to err on the side of user [TS]

  control than it is to ensure that a company does not miss out on revenue and [TS]

  again this I am in the category of these things like people use ad blockers when [TS]

  they watch my videos and I know that and I know that I lose out on revenue [TS]

  because of that and I'm still fine with this decision of like I'm not gonna [TS]

  morally condemn anybody who has only ever watched my videos with an ad [TS]

  blocker on and has never donated to my picture on I will not morally condemn [TS]

  that person but what is the control that you feel that you are giving away is it [TS]

  the control of the page looks like or is it the control of the [TS]

  the trackers that many of these websites used to track your information when I'm [TS]

  in control I'm kind of talking about a a general-purpose computer situation like [TS]

  I have a machine in front of me that I can program now I absolutely know that [TS]

  at this very moment there are angry Android users firing up their email [TS]

  clients to tell me about how Apple has totally locked down and iPhones and you [TS]

  can't do anything with them and if you're still in favor of user control [TS]

  wire using I feel like I totally understand that I'm just say I'm in [TS]

  favor of more control I'm not looking for absolute control with my device so I [TS]

  think this is a situation where Apple has allowed the user to do a thing and [TS]

  some people are taking advantage of that option and I think that they should be [TS]

  able to do that but there is definitely it's so bound up in the sad side of [TS]

  things but there is there is definitely a privacy argument to be made and when I [TS]

  first started running gostaria while ago [TS]

  good story is an ad blocker but also just a tracking blocker on the web and I [TS]

  hadn't used it ever but they have a little option where it'll pop up a [TS]

  little bubble at the bottom which will show you all the things on the page that [TS]

  it blocks and I have to say I had my breath taken away by how many things [TS]

  were loaded up on so many websites I just could not believe the number of [TS]

  trackers that appear on normal websites it was quite astounding and I [TS]

  specifically went around to some sites just to see like what is where and the [TS]

  amount of stuff that is keeping track of where you are going all the time is is [TS]

  much bigger than I would have thought and I think I should have been more [TS]

  aware of this than I was but my my internetting experience is relatively [TS]

  constrained like I don't go to a lot of general websites my experience is spent [TS]

  a lot of time on Reddit and Twitter and Hacker News and I follow some [TS]

  individuals on the web [TS]

  they like but I don't really go to a lot of broad websites like let's say our [TS]

  theoretical submerged that's exactly the kind of site where it exists that I [TS]

  wouldn't necessarily spent a lot of time on but seeing the way some people in my [TS]

  family use their devices I can see what other people's internet looks like and [TS]

  it sometimes horrifying like my wife definitely complains about these [TS]

  horrific add that follow her around on the internet and I've heard other people [TS]

  talk about how you like stuff follows you from site to site and I've seen [TS]

  people I know have difficulty even trying to navigate web sites and so this [TS]

  is what I mean about the control of the device that you're using of you know [TS]

  what this is my machine and I don't want ad companies following me from place to [TS]

  place advertising things that I just don't want to see like I own this [TS]

  machine I should be able to block this stuff or I'm trying to get access to [TS]

  this information and I just want to make it as clear as possible so that's that's [TS]

  kind of what I mean about a user having control over their own device I'm very [TS]

  conflicted about this I think it's it's a kit comes across in the way that I [TS]

  basically talk around then around it like I don't know how to feel here [TS]

  the main thing the main reason I've left piece installed is because the one thing [TS]

  I don't like is how long it takes [TS]

  web pages to load and how large they are in some instances because you know [TS]

  enough left only on my iPhone and only in at like Twitter because I'm usually [TS]

  so that for example only ever use Safari in like 10 min to watch it opens in so [TS]

  far in a safari you know because I tend to be out and about when I'm looking at [TS]

  so I'm burning from my data cap because websites are very very large but whilst [TS]

  we've been talking i unlock my phone and go into the settings outlet four times [TS]

  to remove peace and then I could come back from it [TS]

  I've heard this discussion from many people have read about it from many [TS]

  people many of my friends and its most people take the exact view that you're [TS]

  taking right now which is its my advice i dont wanna see that you're showing me [TS]

  i dont wanna be tracked by you so I am taking my right and installing an app [TS]

  Locker and I will never see the ads are loved by you anymore but like this is [TS]

  part of me just like I don't know if that is is that lines up with my morals [TS]

  as to what i think is is acceptable and I also feel like so many people what [TS]

  they say is the biggest point is doesn't line up for example the people there [TS]

  that mainly complain about being tracked what if you just turned off the tracking [TS]

  but still saw the ads to be happy about that and I think that most people would [TS]

  then go back on themselves and say that they also don't want to see the ads as [TS]

  well yeah I won't back down from that if there was an option to say just turn off [TS]

  trackers and not also turn off ads I wouldn't take it but I would block the [TS]

  ads as well which I believe basically everybody that uses a few so I feel like [TS]

  that the tracking stuff is a MacGuffin in the conversation it's so many people [TS]

  an excuse to say why they think it's ok to block the ads because companies [TS]

  shouldn't have the ability to track them are on the web [TS]

  I just think that the tracking thing comes up because for a lot of people it [TS]

  strikes them as creepy in a way and it is just another it is another layer to [TS]

  add to this conversation I think that perhaps what is the creepiest [TS]

  intersection of tracking and advertising is I saw this article I'll leave it to [TS]

  you might find it for the show notes but it was it was some report about a [TS]

  product that Google is developing which they called Google match did you come [TS]

  across this so the outline this is one of these stories where I was I was [TS]

  thinking did somebody a Google float this so they could see public reaction [TS]

  before they're actually going to announce it but the broad outline as [TS]

  reported by like sources inside google whether Google developing this program [TS]

  called match where an advertiser can upload email addresses and specifically [TS]

  try to target those people with ads on the web through Google system so if you [TS]

  have a database of a bunch of Gmail addresses Google knows when those people [TS]

  are logged and browsing around in Chrome and you can advertise to those people [TS]

  specifically and I think that's the kind of thing people would just fine really [TS]

  creepy to know exists you know who doesn't who make yeah you don't think [TS]

  that's creeping No [TS]

  just like somebody sending a piece of mail TR that's all there is I used to [TS]

  work in marketing that was what I did write for a living [TS]

  these guys so I know like the power of data right and why it's good to have the [TS]

  circus-like parlor problem of web ads is that they are two general they have the [TS]

  tracking they've run you but this still advertising to a broader broader [TS]

  audience and one of the great things about targeted email ads and targeted [TS]

  mail like postal mail is that you can give someone something that is more [TS]

  specific to them so when it's used in the right scenarios this could be really [TS]

  good you could get a tailored offer from your supermarket which could be of [TS]

  benefit to you but like you know the fact that they have already have this [TS]

  e-mail address [TS]

  taken a advertised you anyway maybe it's best if the advertising they get is [TS]

  targeted to you more specifically to me is that nobody gets really creeped out [TS]

  that they get junk mail or these authors center hope that doesn't freak people [TS]

  out his home address that these people have way more dangerous than an email [TS]

  address [TS]

  but it doesn't bother anyone about not like people don't like it they get it [TS]

  but they're not like I need to move I need to put my home and nobody does that [TS]

  but it's the same if not worse in my view and no mean millions of people that [TS]

  would disagree with me but that's how I feel about these things like that type [TS]

  of advertising is more likely for me to be useful than the stuff so I went to [TS]

  Mike in that conversation excellent point is going there and you are [TS]

  definitely right that there's a bit of a sub argument in this conversation which [TS]

  is about targeted advertising and in my mind there is some line which is crossed [TS]

  by the email thing but in general I don't mind more targeted advertising and [TS]

  as an example actually think YouTube is pretty good [TS]

  their pre roll's most of the time of broadly speaking guessing what I might [TS]

  be interested in I have to say the more and more I watch YouTube which is [TS]

  becoming more and more the more I do actually watch right and so I have long [TS]

  thought that the YouTube five-second skippable ad is the best ad unit in many [TS]

  ways that exists on the internet because it only briefly takes your time and the [TS]

  amount of time Google get their right of like you know what I do want to watch [TS]

  this game trailer before i watch this video is surprisingly high and it's also [TS]

  funny just because my wife uses YouTube music collection I can see the ads that [TS]

  pop up on her computer sometimes for YouTube and he just taken broadly see [TS]

  that they have a whole different set of ads that they show her that I never even [TS]

  see her but she's not getting ads for the new doom for trailer came out that [TS]

  never pops up on my wife's computer and I don't get her ads and vice versa and I [TS]

  feel like oh that's just perfectly fine I don't mind that at all you get is like [TS]

  notifications of the new Rachel Platten single and stuff like that that's [TS]

  exactly right so I don't mind that but there's something where the individual [TS]

  thing even though your analogy but the house is absolutely spot-on it just it [TS]

  flips something in my brain and I also feel this from the opposite side where [TS]

  because I run a big email list archive about 75,000 people on my email list on [TS]

  my website I he would feel like a monster if I uploaded that database into [TS]

  Google's new advertising program and then told Google I want you to follow [TS]

  these people around with ads for CGP grey sweat shirts wherever they are on [TS]

  the internet marketer inside you but this is but this is the thing is like [TS]

  almost certainly that would be a profitable thing to do because web ads [TS]

  are just so [TS]

  cheap and even if I just sold a couple sweatshirt that would probably cover the [TS]

  advertising costs but I would still just feel like a monster I would feel like I [TS]

  was I was reaching into individual computers to show these people and add [TS]

  that I want to show them and I i would not be comfortable doing that at all but [TS]

  even if you think it's a great business decision like the people in your email [TS]

  list of the people that will most likely want to know there is a hoodie hoodies [TS]

  are super comfortable I'm actually wearing on right now being [TS]

  I really I believe you the office thanks to this for me is your email list is a [TS]

  targeted advertising platform especially with the way that you run it because [TS]

  people are subscribed your email list can check the boxes of the things that [TS]

  they want to hear more about so when cortex began we were able to tell those [TS]

  people that said I wanna know about CG be great podcasts that this existed as a [TS]

  targeted advertisment bubble the people opted in for it so it's nice but that's [TS]

  the kind of thing right but that is the way that this stuff works the way it's [TS]

  tough grows because whilst you are a strange human being and maybe I'm not so [TS]

  much see that at the beginning of something that could become very useful [TS]

  profitable as people willingly giving you some kind of information right [TS]

  your email this is a marketing platform for you have people that care about what [TS]

  you do so again the idea of uploading these email addresses if it is your bank [TS]

  that does this because they have an offer that they want to get to you but [TS]

  they can't get it to you that is a great way for them to get their offer to you [TS]

  on the web I just I feel like you're at four marketer mode here it's about like [TS]

  so it is why I didn't like my job I liked the fundamentals of what this [TS]

  stuff was about yeah I know I know and it's it's one of those things where I'm [TS]

  sitting here and thinking I agree [TS]

  with the individual words that you're saying when they're all together I don't [TS]

  like it one bit at all even though there's no part of it that I can argue [TS]

  in this episode of cortex is also brought to you by the lovely folks over [TS]

  at a clue to make the internet actually like if you work in a company that has [TS]

  corporate intranet and you use it everyday and you look at it you think [TS]

  why is this so terrible why did the person who makes me used as program [TS]

  think that this would be something that we would like it [TS]

  think that this would be something that we would like it [TS]

  ugly it works badly its lower contused on my phone I can use on my tablet [TS]

  doesn't give me any of the integrations that I need then you need if you look at [TS]

  your engine every day and feel like it was built in the nineties was designed [TS]

  by somebody who must actually hey you can even need a clue because with [TS]

  England you don't have to be stuck to your work you can manage your tasks you [TS]

  can share status updates from wherever you are in your phone or tablet on your [TS]

  desktop PC on your laptop if it gets an internet connection and has a web [TS]

  browser you can use it igloo understands that these days everyone is mobile and [TS]

  they believe that you should be in your work to it was also super customizable [TS]

  you can make it look the way that you want and you can also make act and [TS]

  perform the way that you want four different teams so if different teams in [TS]

  your company need different functionality than you can set that up [TS]

  if one part of your company doesn't need to be able to share status updates like [TS]

  a Twitter microblog like function you can remove that if one party company [TS]

  doesn't need to see documents you can remove that to you they have role-based [TS]

  access permissions is all easy and drag and drop them a great widget editor to [TS]

  you can reorganize and customers to platform to Fitch's how you work it also [TS]

  integrates with third-party services like box Google Drive Dropbox this stops [TS]

  people from taking documents out of your company and putting them in their own [TS]

  accounts of these services because they can be integrated into a clue which [TS]

  keeps it all secure they have 256 bit encryption single sign-on support and [TS]

  Active Directory integrations if you know what this is then you know just how [TS]

  safe and secure a clue is I mention a document collaboration engine a moment [TS]

  ago this allows people to upload documents and all stay on the same page [TS]

  and you can also track who has read critical information we've read receipts [TS]

  as well it's time to break away from the internet you hate goes on up there right [TS]

  now and you can try it out for free to any team of up to 10 people for as long [TS]

  as you want with no catch sub sign up [TS]

  equals / contacts and you also be supporting this show thank [TS]

  you so much to include their continued support of cortex and relay FM [TS]

  anyway [TS]

  getting back to the content blockers I can't see myself ever seriously running [TS]

  an ad blocker and I and i think im gonna turn piece off again on my iPhone just [TS]

  because as I expect it will probably happen when I start to talk about this I [TS]

  get very emotional about it I think and I think it is partly because my living [TS]

  is made this way with our advertising and the kindness of our listeners to [TS]

  support advertises but you know I feel like I'm not necessarily in that world [TS]

  because of the way that we do our housing if we had one big company that [TS]

  was selling our ads and there's nothing we could do about it and it wasn't mean [TS]

  you it was like random people talking in the middle of our shows that we get [TS]

  pictures from companies that want to do this and I'm like crazy like thats [TS]

  horrible right so we do it slightly differently so I feel a little bit [TS]

  removed from it but I still just just can't help but feel for the people whose [TS]

  livings provided by it with you think it's right or wrong with you think that [TS]

  this merged should or shouldn't exist and it's just collateral damage at least [TS]

  people you'd lose their jobs there's just a thing for me where I can I just [TS]

  can't reconcile in my brain hurts conduit yeah I still there are many [TS]

  points we have had a big long conversation about this but there's a [TS]

  couple things I want to try to reiterate as my mean points here and the big one [TS]

  is I am just not convinced that ad blockers on iOS will have a significant [TS]

  actual impact [TS]

  on the sites that have complained most loudly about ad blockers and the site [TS]

  that complain most loudly about ad blockers seemed in general to be the [TS]

  same sites that have the worst lowest quality adds that exist anywhere there's [TS]

  a there's a real overlap in that and I still say that that the story is told as [TS]

  though like oh this merger is going to have to close its doors and we can't [TS]

  continue on in business and I still I still feel like okay look if a 10 [TS]

  percent hit in revenue forces you to close your doors something was going to [TS]

  make you close your doors anyway like you were a terrible unstable business to [TS]

  begin with and if you can't find some other way to earn money from what you [TS]

  claim is a valuable thing that you are producing [TS]

  I'm not convinced you're actually making something valuable that lots of people [TS]

  care about if the thing that you are making is something that people want you [TS]

  should be able to figure out a way to make money off of it that is not just [TS]

  the lowest of the low as on the internet and I don't have another little [TS]

  clarification point here for for the listeners when I say the lowest of the [TS]

  low I don't I don't even mean like oh these pop up ads or use a slide in from [TS]

  the side I mean just in terms of the ad rates that you get from these things and [TS]

  so having had my foot in several of these businesses you can just broadly [TS]

  say without being able to go into specifics that advertisers are the most [TS]

  willing to pay for podcast adds to an add an advertiser will pay the most for [TS]

  a podcast add per thousand listeners and I think part of the reason that happens [TS]

  is because 1 the hosts are reading the ad themselves so there's some connection [TS]

  between the audience and the person who's reading it as as I think you've [TS]

  always said Mike doesn't imply endorsement there even if there isn't an [TS]

  actual endorsement don't want to clarify that a little bit cause that endorsement [TS]

  is a dirty word [TS]

  word right because in endorsements says you say this product is yes it's good [TS]

  and we've had conversations with some companies that we do not sell [TS]

  endorsements sponsorships and a host can endorse a product if they choose to many [TS]

  of the script i right [TS]

  have a little section in the same if you would like to talk about your [TS]

  experiences with the product you can say that here but we purposely do not [TS]

  present and in the first person unless they are an endorsement of always right [TS]

  is a read because I don't feel like we have to specifically all he used the [TS]

  products but it's with we believe that it is a good product and a good fit like [TS]

  for example let's say that we have smiles sponsoring the show and I love [TS]

  smiles products of a host of some of the other shows might not use them but they [TS]

  trust my judgement that they would read the ad that the product is good because [TS]

  I use it so we have as a group so that there are other we we have an advertised [TS]

  it on our users who has a Mac out but I don't use but I know that Katie uses so [TS]

  I'm happy to see what I mean yeah we have week if any of us can agree this is [TS]

  a good thing then we will advertise it but it's not necessarily a personal [TS]

  endorsement in every situation I just want to take that sidebar sorry no no [TS]

  you please please do I because this is an important point here about why our [TS]

  advertisers more willing to pay for Pakistan's and part of it is the host [TS]

  reading it [TS]

  part of it for what you guys do it relay and also what I do it hello Internet is [TS]

  a selection of podcast ads and I do the same thing I don't use every single one [TS]

  of the products that is advertised on hello internet but I will never say oh I [TS]

  love in used product acts if I don't but if I have used a product and I do like [TS]

  it I'm totally happy to say it like I never want to have an ad on that show [TS]

  that I feel uncomfortable with but the next level down is that there are [TS]

  companies that kind of cell mass podcast ads and I turned away from using those [TS]

  very quickly and the price of those were lower because it felt like it was [TS]

  one step down where it wasn't like curation and selection and something [TS]

  that I'm very happy talking about and i got much much lower rates for those kind [TS]

  of ads on podcast we're taking a step now from like curated intensely personal [TS]

  if they can be ads down to the host is still reading it but it's slightly more [TS]

  mass markets and is not as carefully selected and it's like ok well now the [TS]

  price has gone down a little bit then the next level down is stuff like [TS]

  YouTube ads which is we have reference before on the podcast pay so little [TS]

  compared to podcast ads like several orders of magnitude less and then below [TS]

  like the YouTube ads there are just like banner ads and kind of your standard [TS]

  Google Adsense ads and men if you're running that kind of stuff and to a [TS]

  large extent that's what I see a lot of these smart like sites running you have [TS]

  to generate enormous amounts of use to get small amounts of money that you just [TS]

  ungodly numbers of use as a that's what I mean by excites using these these [TS]

  bottom of the barrel ads they just don't pay very much and I just I feel [TS]

  convinced that they don't pay very much and the sites can't figure out other [TS]

  ways to do it because they're not producing content that people intensely [TS]

  care about that that's why it's very hard for them to transition to other [TS]

  business models because if they're trying to start up a membership it's [TS]

  just nobody really cares that much and so that's also why they're using those [TS]

  same ads and they're like stuck in this position but even all that taken [TS]

  together I'm still not convinced their businesses will go out of business [TS]

  because it is many steps to install an ad blocker on iOS and it is a [TS]

  complicated thing to do on the desktop and most users just never ever do that [TS]

  it's always going to be a small percentage of the audience who are doing [TS]

  this but my feeling about this is these things begin [TS]

  and then they grow and I feel like this is a beginning of something so that's [TS]

  why I'm like I feel like I need to understand my stance now and I think I i [TS]

  think i have I think this conversation has helped me solidify and I have turned [TS]

  off peace now if if the situation remains the same as it has been I will [TS]

  not be using a blocker part of is actually echoes and you said earlier [TS]

  that my internet usage places I go is very limited [TS]

  I don't see the world wide web like the majority of stuff that finds websites [TS]

  that use to go to or links provided by people on Twitter which are typically [TS]

  people I follow up our owners and/or rise of the website now and I don't want [TS]

  any of those websites to go away so the way that I feel like I can do my bit for [TS]

  that is to accept their ads MIB and if because the situation I was happy before [TS]

  of Safari [TS]

  I never complained I don't complain now so I'm just gonna stick with how it used [TS]

  to be and see how it goes from there but I don't I don't think that I i I don't [TS]

  judge other people based on my own views on this because everyone has their own [TS]

  reasons but I just feel like I wanted to share my thoughts because I haven't [TS]

  heard many people talking on the podcast I listen to in the way of speaking so [TS]

  that's that's where I stand on this [TS]

  you more like what they call me is it now is you have anything more you [TS]

  understand this I have a lighter a lighter quick topic and I know the [TS]

  promise I'm looking have so many notes on this topic and if you like we have [TS]

  had a very convoluted conversation and as always I'm very nervous when we are [TS]

  recording about how it actually comes off because the thing that thing about [TS]

  podcasting versus say writing an article is in podcasting when you're talking [TS]

  you're just saying things out loud and you don't you don't have the opportunity [TS]

  to let me refine that sentence so it is clearer what I mean and I feel like I [TS]

  have a have just left behind me a long series of unclear sentences so maybe [TS]

  we'll have to revisit this in the future but I am looking at just so many notes [TS]

  and I think this is just so tied up for me in how people make their money online [TS]

  and what kind of business models are successful and whether or not people [TS]

  have a right to demand that things work in a certain way it's like it's very [TS]

  hard for me to pull this out so I think for the moment we're just gonna have to [TS]

  leave it as it is because I don't know if an infinite amount of talking will [TS]

  clarify this successfully right now and that the show I have a little follow in [TS]

  which I didn't address earlier can you explain for the listener would follow in [TS]

  is Mike and also who was the creator of following you all the currently be [TS]

  creating a follow in between currently there's no currently I am the creator of [TS]

  all the creative solutions so many people be familiar with tough follow-up [TS]

  which is something that we do it has many podcasts to John Siracusa who [TS]

  mentioned area is credited as being the deal was not necessarily creator the [TS]

  instigator I guess of follow-up and the idea of where follow-up exists in a show [TS]

  the front and it's all that country he said many rules that many podcasts for [TS]

  now and then when changes and snow started upgrade Jason create something [TS]

  called follow out which is where the host of a podcast world give their [TS]

  thoughts of views on another podcast right it's basically doing follow-up but [TS]

  not for your show [TS]

  follow-up for somebody else's show and also providing feedback but not through [TS]

  an email so recently created something called follow in where he has a host of [TS]

  another show on the same network asked a question of another host on another show [TS]

  via means so he asked federico VTG of Mac stories and connected a question [TS]

  about something that happened on his show up at the Lincoln National City [TS]

  episodes right start it's too much to go to run if it's follow in because the way [TS]

  I was doing it was I wanted to insert Vihear you a follow up question for [TS]

  Federico unconnected [TS]

  I could have just asked him on Twitter but I thought this was funny here to do [TS]

  this way so now Federico is reversing this process and he is inserting a [TS]

  follow-up question for me I'm presuming on this show through you just so people [TS]

  are up to date with all the podcasting 250 podcasting universe was not enough [TS]

  for you now have been so like many many people [TS]

  federico was fascinated by your love of fight song again I never specified that [TS]

  I love fight song I know that you're trying to make this thing [TS]

  fights on with the tools that I used that song is in my hello I want you know [TS]

  even though I've only listened to it once maybe twice at the catchy song but [TS]

  my problem was I listened to one very small clip of that song multiple times [TS]

  that in my head all the time as I was editing a lost episode and Federico like [TS]

  many people sent me a screenshot of him listening to that song and then asked [TS]

  the following questions has grey ever been to a concert rarely and mostly a [TS]

  long time ago so yes is the answer [TS]

  yeah the answer is yes but I mean not in like I mean even now I'm stuck in the [TS]

  different definition of concert to mean live music journalist a knot in like [TS]

  eight years [TS]

  ok did you enjoy it [TS]

  give him my previous answer there what are you going to speculate well I would [TS]

  say no however they could have been some like radical change in you you know that [TS]

  you loved it then but now I hate them know they're there has been no radical [TS]

  change I do not enjoy concerts and my limited experiences with them have been [TS]

  oh this is a horrible combination of two things one it's just boring it's deathly [TS]

  boring because there is never a scenario in my life where I would pay attention [TS]

  to music with 100% of my available mind because I'm supposed to just stand here [TS]

  and just watch you play music and nothing else like are you kidding me [TS]

  this is not this is not adequately interesting to justify this amount of [TS]

  attention and then secondly for live music and concerts I always it's bill 00 [TS]

  I'm just listening to a worse version of the song you could have gone to a studio [TS]

  and recorded this and make sure that everything sounds right and tweak it to [TS]

  be its best possible version but instead I'm just listening to you saying it off [TS]

  the cuff and you're not doing as good a job as you could in the studio because [TS]

  the studio you can spend the time to make it the best it possibly can be no [TS]

  not really a fan of concerts did you wants a mass hundreds of people into a [TS]

  room and so on a stage with some friends and talk to them for you talking about [TS]

  the random acts of intelligence show which was a one off thing in Alabama [TS]

  which was amazing and super fun but it was also not the five of us going up [TS]

  there and doing exactly versions of things that we were already [TS]

  extraordinarily well known for for example I didn't get up there and tried [TS]

  to live [TS]

  go through the entire script my United Kingdom explain video that's that's to [TS]

  meet with the concert stuff is like I'm gonna do this now but I'm going to do it [TS]

  slower and with more errors because I'm trying to do it live [TS]

  whereas when I can record it and edit it I can do it fast and perfect every time [TS]

  and it's better there's no comparison here but you do know that everybody in [TS]

  that room would have very happily listen to you read the script right you do know [TS]

  that I don't know that I can't conceive that people would want to hear that [TS]

  private see this is the difference because many many thousands and [TS]

  thousands of people enjoy exactly what I mean I won't say that they're wrong to [TS]

  enjoy it that's the way their brains are wired but I just don't understand this [TS]