The Talk Show

78: Live From Build 2014


  again to power and John career kind of a curveball show this week I was out in [TS]

  San Francisco for of all things Microsoft's build developer conference [TS]

  moral assets Microsoft's version of WWDC we talked about that show but one of the [TS]

  things that that I got offered Microsoft offered to give me a room in the [TS]

  conference Thursday afternoon to do a live audience episode of the talk show [TS]

  and it kind of came together not quite last minute but but closed and I took it [TS]

  as an opportunity to have a new gas cuz I met you know some people from the [TS]

  other side of the fence to cover microsoft more than Apple and so at-bat [TS]

  whose coverage of Microsoft I've been following for a long time many years big [TS]

  fan of his Twitter account to never met him in person before though so took the [TS]

  opportunity to invite him on the show that's what you're going to hear so this [TS]

  was recorded in moscow knee last the people in the audience were all [TS]

  attendees of the bill developer conference and he came off ok you'll [TS]

  hear from me I didn't do any sponsor reads during the live event so I [TS]

  recording those in post which is unusual usually I just do them right in the [TS]

  middle of the show but it didn't seem right with the live audience so I'll pop [TS]

  again probably three more times with interesting information from these shows [TS]

  great sponsors and enjoy the show I think it came off pretty well I think I [TS]

  had a good time the party start one more thing we're not sure what happened I [TS]

  don't know what happened but the audio file that we got from Microsoft cut it [TS]

  clipped a few minutes from the end of the show I think it was exactly seventy [TS]

  four minutes our best guess is that maybe they were recording it right to a [TS]

  CD and there's a 74 minute time limit so they're not much got cut off the show [TS]

  didn't go much longer than that [TS]

  but I actually yeah you know the actual event I did like a nice thank you to [TS]

  everybody who showed up and dad and and then wrapped up rather neatly whereas [TS]

  when you're going to hear here and a bit abruptly but the good thing is it kind [TS]

  of worked out because it ends in a very Microsoft and way [TS]

  easily number one question I've been asked this week is why are you here and [TS]

  it's very easy I'm here for the free Xbox how are we all everybody got their [TS]

  free xbox so I got from my case so I'm here this is the talk show this is my [TS]

  podcast I'm John Gruber so many people here probably from my guest this week is [TS]

  baat hai jaan thank you for joining me long time how long you've been covering [TS]

  Microsoft is a full time since 1992 [TS]

  right long as I've been following your byline and stuff on Microsoft I can't [TS]

  remember when I don't either so it is very different than an Apple conference [TS]

  I'm I'm a foreigner here you know I go to WWDC just about every year this is my [TS]

  first Microsoft Developer Conference that I've attended very interesting [TS]

  similar and certain fundamental ways but very different I can't think of a better [TS]

  obvious answer is that everybody who came to this conference but 5,000 [TS]

  attendees on day one was told hey guess what you're getting an Xbox one that was [TS]

  called Xbox Xbox one that's it [TS]

  which was very popular at Apple conferences one time like 11 years ago [TS]

  they gave away [TS]

  amounts [TS]

  this year they had a broken mouse was featured in in one of the demos that [TS]

  they were they were doing it was kind of it was it was supposed to be a typical [TS]

  enterprise app that that that someone in the audience might develop for their [TS]

  company and so they used one of the great Microsoft fake company names [TS]

  fabric am and and they built a mobile app and so he was able to report that he [TS]

  was giving a keynote address in his mouth was broken he could take a picture [TS]

  of the meadows and and then you know said that the facilities in facilities [TS]

  could bring him a new mouse and the interesting thing about that app was [TS]

  that they demonstrated it on an iPhone right now that's very true so very weird [TS]

  times I've had several people this week remind me of that scene from [TS]

  Ghostbusters you know dogs and cats living together mass hysteria and and I [TS]

  think you know I think they expect fireworks here and I think in a way [TS]

  they're going to be disappointed because what what we really have here is two [TS]

  guys who understand their respective worlds and those worlds have been far [TS]

  apart for a long time and you know and and there was just this sort of an [TS]

  diagram where you had this little slice in the middle and now those worlds her [TS]

  you know their their overlapping significantly more than they ever have i [TS]

  mean I have to acknowledge it because everybody I mean not acknowledge that I [TS]

  was actually featured in the keynote today wearing my mother had not the [TS]

  daring fireball had but you branch the software company I work out with my [TS]

  colleagues brenton they iphoneonly right now and we're using as your we've [TS]

  announced today for our backend sink and and they were nice enough to ask us if [TS]

  we would do a little promotional video and talk about it and say why and did [TS]

  you know awful lot of white holy shit I like watch TV I don't get to see the [TS]

  video before I why I was in the keynote I watched videos I look like a big axle [TS]

  in production values she's super nice and and the message was exactly the [TS]

  truth you know it wasn't like you know here's the lines to give it they asked [TS]

  questions and Britain I gave honest answers and that's where they put the [TS]

  video was great and I've gotta check Twitter I believe the first tweet that I [TS]

  saw after that video ran the somebody said hell froze over very good and [TS]

  they're awful lot of them with pictures to its very weird for me I am NOT used [TS]

  to browsing my Twitter replies and seeing my picture of her usual for me [TS]

  but interests but I also think fundamentally you know you said with the [TS]

  Venn diagram with ever increasing overlap between Microsoft and Apple [TS]

  world's is that it's the truth there's an honesty to what I'm hearing from [TS]

  Microsoft not just without your but a lot of things that when they say it's a [TS]

  multi-device multi-platform world that they mean that there they there's like [TS]

  an acceptance that it's not going to be 95 percent of all computing devices [TS]

  running Windows anymore that's all you know how do you stay out of the house [TS]

  Microsoft stay relevant and successful and grow in that world will one way is [TS]

  by spending I think its 3.2 billion dollars in capex this year to build out [TS]

  as ur you know and you know putting basically you know large chunks of the [TS]

  Visual Studio Visual Studio development environment into that cloud so that it [TS]

  will run into any browser on any on on any device [TS]

  mean that that kind of of expenditure you know it is really specific evidence [TS]

  money talks I think that especially with the people who read my stuff and are [TS]

  coming from a more alcohol more interested in Apple perspective I think [TS]

  that Microsoft's efforts in that as your direction you know I didn't even know [TS]

  that number 3.2 billion capex but that's that's a huge number i mean there are [TS]

  very few companies in the world that he could spend 3.2 billion dollars I mean [TS]

  that's that's a really short list that's because it's a raid that that's [TS]

  one-sixth of a whatsapp the difference there is a Microsoft isn't as to how [TS]

  much cum company is operating in a world where their capex expenditures come from [TS]

  actual profits from actual revenues and not from money money and [TS]

  there's an ROI on that capex too because you know you're going to be paying [TS]

  presumably for that for those has your instances and all that stuff and there's [TS]

  a lot of of you know not just startups but fortune 500 companies that are using [TS]

  that data infrastructure as well the other thing about about Azure when you [TS]

  go I'm I mean as your user myself have a MSDN subscription so I get like 50 bucks [TS]

  of credit each month and you say you know what can you get for 50 bucks the [TS]

  shocking thing is that I can run my website on it and I think that uses like [TS]

  seven dollars worth of credit [TS]

  you know over the course of a month and I couldn't you know just incredible [TS]

  flexibility on it but when you go to that as your portal and start poking [TS]

  around you see ok well im gonna create a virtual machine in the cloud now and you [TS]

  look at all these Windows servers and and wait a minute there's like this long [TS]

  list of Linux distros as well that I could do you know if so I could do to [TS]

  enterprise and Red Hat and open seeing all these you know [TS]

  all these things and and you know yet another example of where you know if you [TS]

  could get the time machine and and go back a decade or so and and have someone [TS]

  say yeah you know Microsoft you're going to be selling your largest competitors [TS]

  operating system [TS]

  largest competitors server operating system in a you know in a cloud-based [TS]

  service they you know they wrap you up in a way we ourselves are using as [TS]

  you're in a very non Windows the way we're not running Windows operating [TS]

  system we're not using the Windows SQL Server we're using it in a very open [TS]

  source unit exceeds sort of way [TS]

  alright but I think bryant would agree with me though [TS]

  Reds Brent Simmons by my colleague the guy did all the work but it's true or [TS]

  not true not we haven't become Windows developers by adopting as you we're [TS]

  still totally iOS developers and doing this network cloud stuff in a very open [TS]

  source non event databases you've gots generic storage the you can configure [TS]

  just about any way you want you've got messaging services available to all [TS]

  sorts of other mobile services that are available to you and none of them are [TS]

  our windows in fact what's you know what's really fascinating and kinda [TS]

  weird for me as a guy who has covered windows for twenty-plus years is that [TS]

  you know they changed the name of a juror from Windows Azure Microsoft Azure [TS]

  that's on one level that symbolic but on another much more important level it's [TS]

  it's a reflection of how both the company and the products changed [TS]

  completely agree [TS]

  another thing I definitely noticed and I saw a lot of people coming on Twitter [TS]

  you and i talked about a pre-show [TS]

  but during the keynote today an awful lot of the demos were running on [TS]

  non-microsoft devices there were iPhones that were being used in demos they I i [TS]

  thought i pad in a couple right there was a demo camera in my dressing rights [TS]

  and remember it's amber and demo was running with an IDE running on a Macbook [TS]

  and there is Mac OS 10 up the you know actually felt at home with Safari with [TS]

  Safari Safari yeah so you know this same thing and I think I tweeted this today [TS]

  as well and a lot of the slides [TS]

  you know there was clearly a conscious effort to to be very inclusive about [TS]

  platforms but you know so they would there would of course be the entire [TS]

  Microsoft range going from xbox through the various windows form factors and and [TS]

  then down to Windows Phone but then there were Android phones and tablets [TS]

  and iPads and iPhones and then Kindle Fire yesterday was also you know that at [TS]

  one point they said and we've added notification support 22 Kindle Fire and [TS]

  you know it's they way you talk about competition [TS]

  you know the fascinating thing is that Amazon Web Services and a juror could [TS]

  not be more direct competitors yes absolutely [TS]

  direct competitors and yet you know you have if you're going to play this we [TS]

  want to be on as many devices in as many platforms as possible you can't say well [TS]

  we don't like that company so you know the fire gets its excluded it's you know [TS]

  it's gonna be there and I think there's also something when you go around you [TS]

  talk to the people with the Microsoft name tags here there is much less of the [TS]

  hold your nose factor when you're talking about those other platforms will [TS]

  we have to support them I think there's some actual genuine enthusiasm now about [TS]

  you know it it's almost like it's you know how many boxes can we take off on [TS]

  this checklist here [TS]

  yeah I mean obviously note no question about it walking through the hallways [TS]

  here and just watching and observing you see very high or higher than anywhere [TS]

  else I've ever seen percentage of people using Windows Phone devices no question [TS]

  about it makes sense you know the bill developer conference but a lot of people [TS]

  with iPhones yep you know and it's weird and so there's one of these ways where [TS]

  you know you close your eyes for a decade and you you can miss these sort [TS]

  of tectonic shifts but that Apple community developers users everything is [TS]

  far more of a technical monoculture today than the Microsoft community right [TS]

  right I mean I honest I mean I'm not and I'm not even saying anything other than [TS]

  inevitable that with the success that Apple's had and and you know the quality [TS]

  but you got to WTC and try to find somebody was not using an iPhone you're [TS]

  gonna have a hard time you'll find somebody there's somebody with an [TS]

  Android phone because they're they're just too right [TS]

  Mac apps or something it's not like nobody had a neck I will also be wearing [TS]

  Google glass yeah we just saw one guy at WBC this year with Google glass glass [TS]

  and and [TS]

  and Galaxy S six problem you'll find somebody had a five thousand person [TS]

  conference using everything but I took a picture at WTC this year I saw a guy so [TS]

  I mean little you'll find somebody that was actually the next iPhone very [TS]

  cleverly disguised they've they've learned after that or Gizmodo things we [TS]

  gotta make the disguise is better [TS]

  nobody's gonna steal that one it was the date was day one and they had announced [TS]

  the new Mac Pro which is very pretty machine and it looks very different than [TS]

  every thousand had them of course behind glass can't touch spinning around and [TS]

  everybody was like looking at it and there's this guy taking a picture with [TS]

  his foot and I thought and I'm like looking around and other people are my [TS]

  this is way more interesting than his he's like you know its performance art [TS]

  is it had to be like Andy Kaufman has returned in this is doing that thing but [TS]

  you know so it is true you know inclusiveness platforms and everything [TS]

  and yet there is still a lot of windows here oh [TS]

  a whole lot of windows and and and a lot of pride and investment in in in what's [TS]

  happening in in those platforms and not just the sort of generic PCs but in some [TS]

  of the more interesting form factors and especially the phones you know well the [TS]

  other thing too is the developer tools and Microsoft has always had a golden [TS]

  reputation for the quality of their developer tools and training and in ways [TS]

  that you know even people like us who have been only really developing all [TS]

  products for decades even have always been in the back of the head by that I [TS]

  mean they're there I D plus you know our stuff away their debugging [TS]

  get up and even you know so it makes sense though that there's so much [TS]

  windows here because you've got to be on Windows using those developer tools but [TS]

  they showed some really cool stuff that caught my eye and I guess you knew about [TS]

  this crystal you tweet but I forget what its called but its thing where you can [TS]

  go into the open a webpage going to develop promote and everybody you know [TS]

  browser link so you can see the sea CSS and HTML behind the page and you can [TS]

  tweak it and all the major browsers have had this reaching you can test like a [TS]

  color change that's where they don't change the color of the bed but with [TS]

  this browser link it hooks up to the IDE and it'll actually change the source [TS]

  file as you change their yes yes so instead of just changing it on the page [TS]

  and seeing it and seeing how it looks [TS]

  it's actually you know you can make the change in the IDE and see it reflected [TS]

  instantly in the browser or you could change in the browser and see it [TS]

  instantly reflected in the I D which is pretty mind-blowing actually and again [TS]

  in keeping with sort-of ecumenical theme of the whole thing they demoed that in [TS]

  chrome yeah that was that was it I thought the same thing I thought that's [TS]

  a really cool feature but you gotta use I had that thought and it works [TS]

  yeah I think the answer to this is going to yes but do you you perceive the same [TS]

  sort of sea change in attitude you know about lack of a better word the rank and [TS]

  file it at Microsoft in terms of yeah I think it is a new Microsoft and [TS]

  unmistakably so I think what's interesting though is that for outsiders [TS]

  there's a temptation to look at microsoft today and and think that this [TS]

  change is relatively recent and sudden and its related to things like unabomber [TS]

  leaving right for example you know or or or this or the success of Android or [TS]

  something and actually you know one of the one of the interesting things about [TS]

  having covered this for so many years is that a lot of the things that we're [TS]

  seeing today are things that they were talking about at the equivalent of this [TS]

  show five or six years ago in 2008 and [TS]

  they were basically describing the world that we saw in yesterday's and today's [TS]

  keynote and there were some skepticism from people you know about you know are [TS]

  you going to be able to tip tip all this stuff off and so you know you know about [TS]

  dragged out my notebooks from from some of those events I think you'd see wow [TS]

  they they did that they did that they did that they shouldn't have any didn't [TS]

  do that one you know but there's a there's a tremendous amount you know [TS]

  back then they called it three screens in a cloud [TS]

  I think I think they might have gotten the number of screens wrong there's more [TS]

  than you know there's a little more than three but they basically said you know [TS]

  phones and PCs / tablets they didn't they didn't think of those two separate [TS]

  categories and and the TV we're all going to be important and they all [TS]

  needed to be connected to services that were capable of running anywhere [TS]

  because they're gathering data from in synchronizing with cloud services [TS]

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  don't know you came from the show and my thanks to them for sponsoring the talk [TS]

  show now back to the show [TS]

  so you do you think it's fair to say the gist of what I'm hearing there is that [TS]

  you get the casual observer is going to want to draw a direct cause and effect [TS]

  where we've got Steve Ballmer announces his resignation as a search and then [TS]

  sixty days ago or so they said okay here we got a guy and he's like loud guy [TS]

  right and he's the new CEO and everybody boards behind a bill gates behind and [TS]

  Steve Ballmer's behind them now Steve Ballmer's retired CEO and Satya Nadella [TS]

  and all of these changes are all going to be attributed to Satya Nadella new [TS]

  CEO has changed the company in 60 days right and that is sort of how it's going [TS]

  to play from the from the outsider's perspective that's exactly what it looks [TS]

  like and yet when you think you know we're you know you're talking about some [TS]

  apple related stuff about how long it takes to build these these things you [TS]

  know that the iPhone didn't come into existence in 60 days it took years for [TS]

  it to be developed years when nobody knew anything about it and all the [TS]

  things that we're seeing today have you know pretty much you know a year to 35 [TS]

  years for a lot of this stuff to Asher stuff you know that goes back a decade [TS]

  has to because although I mean how many data centers does your running we have [TS]

  an answer that one I don't know the answer to but somebody out there can [TS]

  look at nine so yeah so you don't build out nine like massive world-class doing [TS]

  dollar data centers you know sixty days what do you think that's telling though [TS]

  that they did I mean you I i do I think that is very telling that they [TS]

  effectively pick the as your guide to be the CEO of Microsoft oh yeah I mean [TS]

  that's the direction that it was going is it was the right choice and I think [TS]

  it was the right choice to make [TS]

  to you know if you brought in an outsider [TS]

  you get added a random element right to it and and you've created basically then [TS]

  you created a level of uncertainty [TS]

  bringing such an as the as the CEO says basically this train is not slowing down [TS]

  it in fact you know will we might speed up a little bit but the name of the game [TS]

  basically is growth they gotta find somewhere where they're going to grow [TS]

  and as your that whole area of cloud services it's going to grow is clearly [TS]

  somebody's gonna you know it's like the old saying if somebody's gotta make [TS]

  money might as well be Microsoft right to somebody's gonna I mean there's no [TS]

  doubt whatsoever I don't think anybody would disagree no matter how they [TS]

  observe the industry cloud computing is gonna grow from here forward so there it [TS]

  just seems like the most likely source for Microsoft have significant growth [TS]

  well look at office for iPad which is really when you get right down to it [TS]

  it's a cloud product the only way yes you can yes it's a free app you can [TS]

  download a nine-year on your iPad and you can view documents and you can [TS]

  present a presentation you created somewhere else and you can save files [TS]

  locally but the the the thing that unlocks the real value of the of those [TS]

  apps which are what your lovely absent I and I think they're going to iterate [TS]

  them pretty quickly that the thing that unlocks their value is a subscription to [TS]

  office 365 which runs in as user and you know on consumer end and business side [TS]

  it's a more or less like step one in the whole concept of the iPad Office apps is [TS]

  how do you get your documents there and it's clearly the you know there might be [TS]

  thought you might be able to find workarounds for other things and you can [TS]

  open an email attachment but it's clearly designed to use the one Dr one [TS]

  drive as the way that you're going to product previously noted SkyDrive what's [TS]

  the deal with that why did they change that [TS]

  Rupert Murdoch is the short answer the long answer is BSkyB the British [TS]

  television giant owns the sky trademark and they actually have some cloud [TS]

  services at their own so they sued Microsoft in in the UK for trademark [TS]

  infringement won the first battle microsoft said rather than appealing [TS]

  this in potentially losing more expensively they they signed an [TS]

  agreement to to change the name [TS]

  21 drive reminds me of what happened to them with the Metro name for the new [TS]

  user interface where they had this seemingly perfect name for this thing [TS]

  that needed a name right and then some kind of trademark lawyers dot dot dot [TS]

  you want to know and now it's like the new interface they haven't been very [TS]

  transparent about that one that was a German company Metro AG I think and they [TS]

  I think they're sort of like you know german Walmart or something they have [TS]

  you know groceries in computers and it was one of those they they caved they [TS]

  caved on that one in and since [TS]

  and ever since they caved on that one every discussion of apps that are [TS]

  written for Windows 8 for the native environment in Windows 8 becomes his [TS]

  awkward thing where you say well he's modern Windows Store at Metro apps thing [TS]

  where there was who who owns the trademark to iPhone in 2006 Cisco right [TS]

  and and they even came out with a product in December 2006 like four weeks [TS]

  before Steve Jobs unveiled the iPhone and it was remembered Gizmodo totally [TS]

  you know hats off to them for doing but they're like here is the iPhone [TS]

  and it was and it was called the iPhone but it was like the Cisco iPhone and it [TS]

  was like some kind of stupid like regular phone but it somehow you could [TS]

  put on IP network it was like clearly somebody at Cisco who is in his these [TS]

  these trademark negotiations with Apple was like we be in a better position if [TS]

  we had a product using this stake in the ground does anybody have a phone and [TS]

  they die they just took one of the phones and just cut the cable and [TS]

  they're like somebody putting even if you look at it closely it's actually a [TS]

  Sharpie that drew iPhone on the back and then I remember on stage when he when he [TS]

  announced that he and he said you know it's a phone and a communicator and you [TS]

  know whatever the other iPod widescreen video iPod and yes we're calling it i've [TS]

  and you can almost hear you want to say fuck you Cisco and they say another [TS]

  thing I have here with apple and and Steve Jobs demon and and it kind of goes [TS]

  back to the nineties and there is the famous Macworld Expo in summer ninety [TS]

  seven when you know jobs was the ice CEO interim CEO and they announced 250 [TS]

  million dollar investment from Microsoft and Apple and the crowd boom [TS]

  Boston rates yet and the giant you know like seventy-foot Bill Gates on video [TS]

  behind Steve Jobs and there's two things about that I have been thinking about [TS]

  this week I just saw somebody else [TS]

  a lot of people think that that hundred and fifty million from Microsoft saved [TS]

  apple literally like kept them out and they were close to bankruptcy but the [TS]

  hundred and fifty million wasn't anywhere near as big a deal in terms of [TS]

  same name as the commitment to keep making office for mac because that kept [TS]

  the stock up because it was like well at least it's somewhat that was well way [TS]

  bigger deal than 250 million in cash it also kept developers from defecting as [TS]

  they said you know if the office is available there then that means that the [TS]

  biggest developer of productivity software in the world is still committed [TS]

  to it so we can we can draft with them we can ride the coattails hundred and [TS]

  fifty million investment was really symbolic and and you know and I mean [TS]

  that you know I'm not a financial expert but Apple had been losing billions and [TS]

  go from where Apple was in the early nineties where they were flying high [TS]

  to be teetering even mentioning the word bankruptcy meant they were losing [TS]

  billions 350 million you know you're losing billions price 250 million you [TS]

  just lose that Vegas it was the commitment to office that really was [TS]

  like you know Microsoft still with us in the Microsoft deal with this you know [TS]

  maybe you should be till but the thing that number is that and they got booed [TS]

  like you said you know they booed this and people wanted to fight and Steve [TS]

  Jobs said paraphrasing but I can get a quote [TS]

  close is we have to let go this notion that for Apple to win Microsoft has to [TS]

  lose probably win Apple just has to make great products and other companies want [TS]

  to help us that's great we'll take it we want friend but if we have to do it [TS]

  ourselves we do and we're gonna sink or swim loser die by are we gonna make [TS]

  great products and I think that's exactly where Microsoft is today it's [TS]

  significantly better balance sheet right now and that's it it's a huge advantage [TS]

  right so Microsoft Apple was actually in trouble Microsoft is not in trouble i'd [TS]

  say what [TS]

  the problem Microsoft has gotten into is more or less like they were in the [TS]

  doldrums [TS]

  they were in the doldrums and you could also see certain product lines that had [TS]

  whatever the inverse hockey stick curve is you know where there was a potential [TS]

  they could just go you know the thing and and and go down and drop off a cliff [TS]

  and anybody who's who's looking at that the desktop software market for example [TS]

  used to be that you could get you a developer could sell a Windows program [TS]

  for thirty to fifty dollars fairly easily [TS]

  people people would pay that for a very complex product you you know you might [TS]

  get a hundred $200 and then an Adobe and Microsoft to charge a lot more than that [TS]

  today you know the idea I mean the idea of someone paying $30 for a program is [TS]

  is almost laughable [TS]

  you know people if you if you asked for $10 for a nap now if we're gonna ask too [TS]

  expensive you know $5 they you know $5 they might consider it but many better [TS]

  be good and I don't want to see a single four-star review in there and everything [TS]

  else is $0.99 or you know or a buck 99 and so you know I think anybody who [TS]

  looked couple years ago at where the you know just post iPad [TS]

  and with the App Store in in in full swing [TS]

  you look at that and you said our business is dependent on desktop [TS]

  software and windows licenses that cost more than $30 we better figure out how [TS]

  how to let that business degrade and find the one that's going to keep [TS]

  growing [TS]

  I think it's true I i really do I think that even when companies get truly big [TS]

  and Microsoft has a huge company Apple is a huge company but there's a certain [TS]

  DNA that always dates back to when it was founded and you know without really [TS]

  does go back to this DNA that when it was you know the two Steves in a garage [TS]

  for Microsoft part of that DNA to me is the whole idea of selling soft as I get [TS]

  the seventies there's this nascent personal computing mark and anybody who [TS]

  was like us and was in the computers that time was can't wait I have a [TS]

  computer in my house and there was I want to write people wanna write [TS]

  software for it and people would write the software and they would just publish [TS]

  it in the source code and anybody can do it and Bill Gates's thing what you have [TS]

  a letter that he published just thinking of that one you know homebrew computing [TS]

  stop stealing software pay for it right [TS]

  his idea what you know everybody was saying everybody was saying we could [TS]

  write software for personal computers Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer dunno [TS]

  together and and and pollen pollen their idea was we can write software for [TS]

  personal computers and we can sell it [TS]

  right and people thought they were not right there were people thought he was [TS]

  absolutely nuts and when you wrote the letter that said stop sell you know [TS]

  stealing it we're trying to you know if if everybody still that we will not be [TS]

  able to keep making it never liked when nobody's gonna pay for software and you [TS]

  know it was right but that's their DNA and the world is really kind of shifting [TS]

  away from you know well the other thing the other interesting thing about the [TS]

  DNA of the company and its unique 22 Microsoft was what happened in 1997 to [TS]

  2001 with the the antitrust trial that resulted in you know that the big [TS]

  settlement agreement settlement decree and then that was followed by a couple [TS]

  of of antitrust suits in Europe and so I think the other that the interesting [TS]

  thing about Microsoft is they still have that sort of founders DNA in them but [TS]

  they also have this you know they were brutalized by those lawsuits they were [TS]

  forced to change you know just about every business practice that had made [TS]

  them that it made them successful some of them it's a good thing that those [TS]

  business practices were changed because they were you know of abusive monopoly [TS]

  power in other cases they were things that we take as commonplace today and [TS]

  operating system is a browser is right but but the you know the consent decree [TS]

  said you have to separate the the browser from the operating system and [TS]

  you have to provide a mechanism for alternate browsers or malware [TS]

  Microsoft's argument at the trial that that the browser belongs as part of the [TS]

  operating system which was widely mocked expect you know but critics well and [TS]

  they and they made the they made the argument in a very happy [TS]

  handed fashion terrible demo by by Jim Allchin you know who it was a it was a [TS]

  video tape deposition and they discovered afterwards and they the [TS]

  government and David Boies in his team found that they had placed you know they [TS]

  had cut things out of this video and when they got to see the whole thing it [TS]

  you know it it kind of changed the story and and and even made them look worse it [TS]

  made them look dishonest like they were trying to hide something when they there [TS]

  was actually a legitimate story that had the truth on their site had the truth on [TS]

  their site and they but the but the but that early DNA was win at any cost which [TS]

  is what got them in trouble and I think so I think now a lot of people still [TS]

  have the belief that Microsoft this is cutthroat [TS]

  win at any cost company and they have this this image of the you know the [TS]

  hard-charging rule busting Microsoft of the nineties but the the Microsoft that [TS]

  I know from [TS]

  in the last eight to ten years is one that is hypersensitive to rules and [TS]

  legal processes and will bend over the other direction to avoid the appearance [TS]

  and even then they still get nailed in the EU for things that they thought they [TS]

  had covered [TS]

  one of the ways clearly that Microsoft is different from Apple and that this [TS]

  conference is very different from WBC is that just the mere fact that you're [TS]

  still here this is day two of the conference there's a couple of press [TS]

  from Drexel recording the show and one of the president's but there's a press [TS]

  room next door in the press room next door so you been here for two days right [TS]

  here all day at WWDC when you have a press badge you come to the morning [TS]

  keynote which is only 90 minutes Microsoft yesterday's keno could have [TS]

  been I think they could have cut the the that the big sequence with Joe Belfiore [TS]

  playing the the giant piano connected to a telnet window that was you know a [TS]

  little weird but you the press comes in there's a ninety-minute keynote that is [TS]

  largely devoid of technical information they date segregate there is like it's [TS]

  they don't call it a keynote but there's affectively after lunch on day one hears [TS]

  the tech keno and here's where we're going to show Xcode and we're going to [TS]

  show source code and we're gonna do nerdy stuff but the morning keynote is [TS]

  very very layperson consumer II and they flush Moscow me that mean you're out I [TS]

  keynote is over everybody's out including badge holders everybody's out [TS]

  and that's to make sure all the press her out and then you don't you can't get [TS]

  back in once that morning keynote is over and you go down the escalator your [TS]

  have paid for a developer's badge right and you can go into the sessions right [TS]

  so that's why I i last couple of years I've done that but I paper is not [TS]

  included in a press badge for you develop a relationship and you get in [TS]

  for free but to come to anything else the rest of the week you need a paid bad [TS]

  and then fact you know and if anybody suspect that maybe they help me or [TS]

  something I think that they don't like it when press people buy them cause I [TS]

  don't you know you're under NDA everything's under Indiana but the you [TS]

  know what they think what's the point why the press coming into these things [TS]

  unless they want to write about it we don't want to write about it [TS]

  get break yeah I mean there there again is a difference in to sort of the [TS]

  institutional mentality of the of the two companies so the interesting thing [TS]

  about WWDC I've never been to one but you know if watchdog I watched them the [TS]

  light streams of them [TS]

  Apple is primarily a consumer company and so that keynote is almost a [TS]

  commercial you know and you know take you take place specially when steve Jobs [TS]

  was was doing the things and then the developer stuff is like don't look [TS]

  behind the curtain stuff you don't you don't really want consumers to know [TS]

  about this stuff because you wanted to be magical microsoft saying first of all [TS]

  it's primarily business-focused although it you know if they would like to know [TS]

  Xbox of course is is a great consumer success and they would like the new PC [TS]

  form factors to be consumer success as well but when you get right down to it [TS]

  most of the developers here are writing software for business users for you know [TS]

  sometimes for internal enterprise apps and stuff and so that you get their [TS]

  consumers versus business thing you also have the open persist secret thing and [TS]

  Apple thrives on you know it's it's consumer business is one of its key [TS]

  strategic advantages is its ability to keep a secret and you know Microsoft has [TS]

  tried that in the last couple of years and it's backfired [TS]

  you know you really and so will one thing that we have seen this week here [TS]

  is more of a willingness to talk about the future to outline roadmaps even if [TS]

  they don't have dates on them at least you know this is going to continue to be [TS]

  supported this thing is coming in in a future update to Windows but we want to [TS]

  tell you exactly when but you can look forward to it and so you're seeing a [TS]

  little bit more of that now and that's really you know it has to be especially [TS]

  for that cross device cross-platform [TS]

  world you have to be have to be more open secrecy just isn't going to work so [TS]

  you know best example of some Microsoft came to me and they knew that was coming [TS]

  for the thing with Vestberg and said hey would you like to do your podcast here [TS]

  and you know people will give you a room will give you Mike will give you beer [TS]

  and there is no other strings attached it wasn't like here's what we want to [TS]

  talk about it is what you can do what they like the odds of Apple to see what [TS]

  they offered to me but the odds that like they're gonna say would you like to [TS]

  do it from within 30 Wednesday of every day VDC [TS]

  I'd say that's when the meteor hits disco light and humid you should [TS]

  immediately call your broker in short Apple because clearly something [TS]

  seriously wrong [TS]

  yeah just fundamental differences very different now a word from our Sponsors [TS]

  John again interrupting just to tell you about another one of our great sponsors [TS]

  want to tell you about branch fire I just like a team this week with the [TS]

  sponsors everybody's on fireweed Backblaze now we have branch fire but [TS]

  don't get them confused totally different company branch fire is a [TS]

  chicago-based startup dedicated to building software that helps people work [TS]

  better their flagship product I a note 8 was the first PDF annotation app [TS]

  developed for the iPad and it still right now today among the top [TS]

  productivity apps on the App Store identity lets users read mark-up [TS]

  organize and share documents right from their iPads over one million people [TS]

  worldwide from students and teachers to Hollywood actors and screenwriters have [TS]

  you used diet annotate to take their workflow paperless with killer features [TS]

  an awesome support identity has become the productivity app of choice for [TS]

  entrepreneurs and executives as well no start no surprise to me that it's an [TS]

  iPad app I think if there's one area where the iPad really stands out is it [TS]

  just a tremendous device it's about you know compared to iPhones and even max is [TS]

  for reading PDFs because it is in your hands it's like the size of a piece of [TS]

  paper and PPT pdf you know sort of any now by 11 or those of you in your up [TS]

  with you guys call it a day for roughly that size device and it just is like a [TS]

  natural fit for PDF so no surprise to me that an app like I am dirty is such a [TS]

  big hit with iOS iPad in particular users branch fire the team their hard [TS]

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  you can find out more by following branch fire on Twitter that's at branch [TS]

  fire there on Facebook too and you can go to [TS]

  / get a note 8 branch fire dot com slash get I annotate to see the current app in [TS]

  action a great app you use PDF seen you have an iPad you've got to check it out [TS]

  really good at my thanks to branch fire [TS]

  now back to the show so let's talk a little bit about some of the news from [TS]

  this week I think to me that thing that stuck out the most is the most [TS]

  intriguing to me is Windows Phone 8.1 right and I said well just short and [TS]

  sweet has taken out of my phone but that to me it looks like from Windows 8 8.1 [TS]

  has more new stuff than Windows 7 to Windows 8 yeah and what's fascinating [TS]

  and I agree with that assessment completely and what's interesting is if [TS]

  you I suspect if you went and talked to someone on the Windows Phone colonel [TS]

  team they would be happy to explain to you why the kernel changes and [TS]

  architecture changes from seven days where where where different effect they [TS]

  broke compatibility [TS]

  they you know they angered people with that one and so that was it it looked [TS]

  like almost nothing from the user experience said but it was it was huge [TS]

  from the kernel site but once you have that and again this is one of those [TS]

  things they were talking they were talking about this three or four years [TS]

  ago and now the user interface stuff is was made possible the rapid iteration in [TS]

  user interface stuff was made possible by the work the kernel work that they [TS]

  did back then and so the fact they're there now you know bringing the API's [TS]

  together for iPhone and Windows tablets and Windows desktops and even Xbox so [TS]

  that I think I think the official numbers like 92% in the API is her are [TS]

  are common for those so basically you know the the pitch is that you can write [TS]

  a nap [TS]

  you know it's it's not exactly the old write once run anywhere thing but it's [TS]

  right once and have a relatively easy time of porting it to other members of [TS]

  the same family but the only differences are things that are obviously different [TS]

  the screen is much bigger or if it's for the Xbox it's not touch it's going to be [TS]

  you know an Xbox controller [TS]

  and you have a cellular radio and one device its most likely not in any of [TS]

  those other device if the actual differences in the devices that and so [TS]

  and so one of my favorite one of one of my favorite apps I think you know when [TS]

  it hits it should be a showcase app for Windows 8 in fact is one called tweety [TS]

  i'm ok tweet team and written by a guy named Brandon panic just an amazing app [TS]

  and I noticed he had taken his Windows 8 app yesterday he got the Windows Phone [TS]

  8.1 bits in the in the SDK and today he was showing a running version of 20 a.m. [TS]

  on Windows Phone a point one which is so I mean it's kind of a 88 validation of [TS]

  their story clearly a flagship featured big big part of the keynote yesterday a [TS]

  lot of the news is Cortana which of course inevitably was immediately [TS]

  headlines everywhere serial killer which is the worst that killer that everybody [TS]

  killer should be one of those words were if you did your CMS if you put it in the [TS]

  headline it should immediately like auto corrected just zapped it just goes away [TS]

  actually I think there should probably be you know low-voltage electric home on [TS]

  the keys and it and it just gives you a shock so that you know it's like one of [TS]

  those colors you know keeps you from keep your dog from running outside your [TS]

  your property line to keep you from not typing that word again right you really [TS]

  should not be able to put killer and a headline unless you can have your bike a [TS]

  police report that shows the shock and anyway and I think that's a 2006 if you [TS]

  look at it for 10 seconds you might say no serious court time well they're both [TS]

  sort of pulsing thing on the phone and and and a female voice but but really [TS]

  court on what's interesting about Cortana is that it's sort of a fairly [TS]

  artful mashup [TS]

  of Siri and Google now because it has the you know a lot of it is you're [TS]

  you're giving you you can give Cortana permission to access the you know your [TS]

  schedule your email your text messages your your phonebook in in addresses and [TS]

  on and on and on your browsing history and all of that stuff and and so you can [TS]

  get Google now type smart notifications that you never you never had to [TS]

  explicitly ask for delivered through a series like interface so that's kind of [TS]

  you know that that i think is really the the innovation in it is is not it's [TS]

  neither one nor the other yeah I think that it inevitably happens that whoever [TS]

  the ship's first [TS]

  can can claim to be ripped off going forward but the idea of voice driven [TS]

  computing is not new and you know 60 series ship before Cortana and you know [TS]

  Google now shifting between Google had something else [TS]

  2001 ran and war games as you know as prior art one of one of the things that [TS]

  that I thought was interesting about Cortana though and not a hundred percent [TS]

  you know but I think my understanding the way it works though is that Cortana [TS]

  runs largely or maybe even entirely on the device [TS]

  correct which is a very [TS]

  get Siri but compared to Google now where it's here's all of your [TS]

  information sent to Google and most of the computer happens with Google Cloud [TS]

  stop looking at your data and figuring this stuff out whereas with Cortana it's [TS]

  on your phone and your emails and especially with the email thing so [TS]

  Cortana is only allowed to read email on your phone and that cannot be [TS]

  transmitted to the service and and so it's a fundamental [TS]

  you know really a fundamental difference between the two services as you know [TS]

  google says we want all of your information we wanted you know your [TS]

  Google account allows you to put all of this on our servers and we will [TS]

  aggregated and then and then and it's a black box at that point the other cause [TS]

  the other interesting feature about Cortana that I'm not sure made it into [TS]

  too many of the stories there is that there is an interface called court on [TS]

  his notebook I saw that and quite so court on his notebook is taken from the [TS]

  idea that apparently the developers of Cortana interviewed a bunch of actual [TS]

  personal assistance of you know executives and said how do you keep your [TS]

  boss looking smart and on schedule throughout the day and they said well we [TS]

  have a notebook where we have all this stuff about him that we know about him [TS]

  or her and and so they say they've they've replicated that thing there but [TS]

  the the most salient feature of court on his notebook is the ability to say [TS]

  remove that or include this thing that you didn't see so you have control over [TS]

  the stuff that's in there now with most products like this where you give the [TS]

  customer the ability to to tweak the thing you know we know from experience [TS]

  that eighty to ninety percent of the people who use it will never look at [TS]

  that but for the 10 percent or 15 or 20 for whom that's important it's really [TS]

  important and the idea you can go in there and say I don't want you know I [TS]

  just don't I don't want you to have that information at all I don't want that to [TS]

  be part of my profile and you can do that [TS]

  yeah it seems like a big difference and I'm really intrigued to see once it gets [TS]

  out in the real world how people's reaction is to it because clearly that [TS]

  that you know for better for worse than the story was serious [TS]

  it was announced and it looked really cool and it ship and a lot of people [TS]

  found clearly found that it didn't quite work as advertised [TS]

  I think it's gone a lot but I think it's one of those things where yes clearly [TS]

  they they pitched it in the nicest life but are you don't get it you don't get a [TS]

  second chance to make a first impression exactly it's gotten noticeably better [TS]

  over the last two years but in little tiny you know the way that that but you [TS]

  know cloud stuff gets better [TS]

  little bit here but they're a little bit faster here you know the big you know [TS]

  they call it series but the series really the personal assistant but Apple [TS]

  cause it's eerie when you do the text to speech or speech to text [TS]

  dictation that works so much better than it did when they ship like when I'm in [TS]

  its winter in my hand is cold and I'm walking in philadelphia and I want a [TS]

  quick dictator text to my wife or something works so good it really does [TS]

  but it's like too late they don't get credit for it now because you know I [TS]

  think the other difference between the two things and you know another thing [TS]

  that probably didn't make it into too many of the news stories today is that [TS]

  Cortana is extensible so so third party apps can look into court on it and and [TS]

  so you know there's API is for you know for a nap to be able to have Cortana as [TS]

  a as a friend and right and so it's officially beta they're calling it betta [TS]

  they're launching it is in beta right when the ship as part of a one right now [TS]

  it's cuz Apple called Siri beta 2 I think it's just a way of saying look [TS]

  this stuff might not work great too we have a couple months under are well I [TS]

  think you know Google did how long with Gmail Google is your Google searches [TS]

  don't [TS]

  but they're going to definitely going to be able to developer extensibility [TS]

  because Syria's not developer sensible at all there is no there is no [TS]

  integration with third-party apps so even if Apple announces it at WWDC this [TS]

  year they just say it's gonna be first week in June that's not gonna ship until [TS]

  the new OS comes out which is probably going to be on the phone you know if [TS]

  they stick to the same schedule as last year in September [TS]

  you know and you know your time is gonna be out before then and there you know a [TS]

  virgin this sort of idea Voice driven right personal assistant but they're [TS]

  gonna your Microsoft gonna have third-party integration before out and [TS]

  that's if Apple does it this year [TS]

  you know and and there's another thing that Cortana has that that that syria [TS]

  doesn't that Google now does and it's kind of it's kind of a big punch in the [TS]

  nose to everyone who all these pundits who were saying Microsoft needs to get [TS]

  rid of being being just a drag just a drag on the business basically being is [TS]

  you know Cortana is sits on top of being in being is not just a search engine [TS]

  that delivers a list of results it has that you know there's a there's a [TS]

  tremendous amount of semantic knowledge in the in the back end so if you ask for [TS]

  you know what's the best restaurant that's within a 10 minute walk of me you [TS]

  know it can pull that up from Yelp in in in in give you that answer if you you [TS]

  know it has it has access to a lot of sources of data [TS]

  you know the kind of things that appear in the infobox of the search results [TS]

  page that it can also use as answers to the question that you asked it and so [TS]

  those become very competitive advantages that are there because of the of the [TS]

  so-called losses that Microsoft [TS]

  on paying for all these years if you think of being as you know being dot com [TS]

  purchase those losses if you think of that as a sort of product a [TS]

  consumer product that was sort of helping to pay for the incredible [TS]

  investment in information on the back in that was ultimately going to drive a [TS]

  service like Rotana then it's not a loss it's an investment it's all you know [TS]

  seems like science fiction until we have it and it seems boring and we complain [TS]

  about it but you know that that you said how from 2001 1968 you know we're [TS]

  getting there you know we're getting there would you just talk to the [TS]

  computer and the computer gives you answers and having something like being [TS]

  as gives Microsoft a serious leg up over apple doesn't have bet and doesn't want [TS]

  to use Google to do it right i mean Apple has already demonstrated with maps [TS]

  that it wouldn't it would like to sever potentially life-threatening connections [TS]

  you know because because if you know maps are such a crucial component of a [TS]

  mobile device Apple does a little bit they're not totally going it alone [TS]

  Syria has integration with wool from Alpha for a lot of stuffs AVIC reflect [TS]

  stock quotes I think she goes to Wolfram Alpha maybe not sure might just go to [TS]

  the widget but I know you just do math if you just ask him a few questions she [TS]

  goes to Wolfram Alpha results come back from them but I can't help but think it [TS]

  is one of the thoughts I've had the last two days here at building again to like [TS]

  the iPhone introduction in 2007 and you know Steve Jobs introduced it was [TS]

  amazing the audience was blown away and they said now an invite some friends up [TS]

  there in this first friend to come out with Eric Schmidt then borden how did [TS]

  each other and they're laughing and it was all smiles [TS]

  and you know the gist of what Steve Jobs said is a Google they're great friend [TS]

  and may do some amazing things we do totally different amazing things we [TS]

  build these great little devices with really beautiful user interface they do [TS]

  search and they've got maps and they've got this YouTube thing so it's just you [TS]

  know use them for all that stuff that we don't worry about it [TS]

  kumbaya right and then you know you all know how that worked out but I can't [TS]

  help but feel like I'm the bill this week like you said that you know go back [TS]

  to the Venn diagram thing like I know I cannot but think that there's like a no [TS]

  harm done like Apple you can concentrate on what you do best if maybe you went to [TS]

  your house at Microsoft the wall I don't think that such a bad idea [TS]

  there's a little bit of the enemy of my enemy is my friend in there you know and [TS]

  apple and microsoft were insufficiently different worlds and both faced you know [TS]

  really brutal competition from Google and so there's always been this it's [TS]

  always been remarkable to me as much as the tech press in our readers might like [TS]

  to think that there's this you know blood war between the two camps it's [TS]

  really that that has anything for a long time and I think but I think it is in [TS]

  like you said in very different ways it is true though between both companies in [TS]

  Google I mean any enemies may be a strong word but you know if we want to [TS]

  use that analogy sort of go little over the top it's true many nights I think [TS]

  Google's or Apple's biggest enemy as Google and Microsoft's biggest enemy is [TS]

  Google well on the Windows platform google has been obstinate about refusing [TS]

  to support Windows 8 there is exactly one Google app for Windows a Google [TS]

  search it has some other stuff embedded in it so you can use it there but [TS]

  there's no Gmail app there's no to there's no YouTube if there's a whole [TS]

  you know you could write a sitcom about the whole YouTube [TS]

  controversy their Google cannot ignore the Mac and it cannot ignore the iPad [TS]

  because the overlap between their two audiences are you know it's it's people [TS]

  use Apple branded hardware and Google branded services and that's you know [TS]

  there's a huge influential and wealthy portion of the population especially in [TS]

  the united states that that that that defines but you know so Google can't [TS]

  afford to alienate Apple users too much but they can afford to piss off when [TS]

  does she is and hopefully drive them you know they pay its not a lot of ways it [TS]

  seems largely spiteful like part of the sitcom you describe is that microsoft [TS]

  said ok we'll write dia and they wrote a YouTube app and then Google you know [TS]

  found an excuse the API's way and said no even though there was you know we're [TS]

  not even asking them to do the work we made yet [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  now a word from our Sponsors hey John Deere last sponsor gonna take a moment [TS]

  here and thank our good friends at [TS]

  for sponsoring this episode of the show is an internet you'll actually like that [TS]

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  you say internet and you think enterprise software and you think things [TS]

  like SharePoint and you think these monstrosities that were designed in 1997 [TS]

  and still look like a glue is totally modern looks really cool looks really [TS]

  like the way something like an Internet should look today and has all sorts of [TS]

  great features and it's really really easy to set up and use they have [TS]

  integrated apps like shared calendars twitter-like microblogs file sharing [TS]

  more everything you need is built in and everything is social so your team can [TS]

  just collaborate you want to share files you can easily share file when I have a [TS]

  little twitter-like private conversation just your team easy they've got those [TS]

  right there for you so you upload a file rewrite and internal blog post employees [TS]

  can share it [TS]

  comment on it rate it like it even manage versions the ideas to get your [TS]

  whole company communicating better your company has a legacy internet or [TS]

  customer community built on SharePoint in particular you should give it a try [TS]

  they have a report on our website you can look for it [TS]

  igloo software and they've been linked to it and it outlines the five [TS]

  main areas that SharePoint falls short compared to how it does it better [TS]

  where do you go to find out more easy going to / the talk show a [TS]

  good software dot com slash the talk show [TS]

  and when you go there you can follow the link you can find the SharePoint [TS]

  comparison white paper and all sorts of other interesting stuff get started [TS]

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  people before you need to pay unbelievable deal very very happy users [TS]

  I love these guys you got you should check it out [TS]

  really really great company thank you now back to the show [TS]

  the other interesting thing about Windows Phone 8.1 is and I found this [TS]

  little surprising I guess it's a shocking but surprising is that [TS]

  Microsoft announced that on nine inch tablets and smart phones it is now going [TS]

  to be free [TS]

  where there is a version of it yeah that's the one I you know I need to go [TS]

  back in and read the transcript and watch that again because it might be one [TS]

  of those things where the devil is in is in the details there I think I think [TS]

  they said something like there's going to be a you know will make a Windows [TS]

  that will be free [TS]

  you know that I think $0 was what they put on the on the slide on the screen [TS]

  and it was one of those were you say it the right way and and everyone you know [TS]

  the classic magician's trick misdirection focus on the $0 out there [TS]

  and miss the cabinet there it may be that this is the ad-supported version of [TS]

  Windows that that they've talked about talked about through the years but you [TS]

  know whether it's that or whether it's something else [TS]

  the fact is that they've basically that is a direct shot across the bow of [TS]

  Android right that is nothing to do with Apple and the iPhone and everything to [TS]

  do with Android and to me it's one of the biggest mysteries and all of [TS]

  marketing any field tech or whatever but certainly texts were obsessed over more [TS]

  is is when certain products either seemingly get a lot more traction than [TS]

  they seem to deserve or the flip side when there's a product that doesn't seem [TS]

  to get the traction it deserves in two ME Windows Phone absolute might just [TS]

  saying that cuz I'm here to build I really do think it's a far better [TS]

  product than its market share [TS]

  indicates like not even close and it just seems like the phone market is so [TS]

  weird and and even on just the Android side alone just Android it just like HTC [TS]

  makes what are clearly to me the most beautiful Android phones and they're [TS]

  just getting killed by Samsung and even if it's you know you could make an [TS]

  argument that Samsung for technical reasons and design [TS]

  ins and whatever deserves a market share lead-in and write it just seems to me [TS]

  that on the merits it whatever the market share lead a deserved it is [TS]

  nowhere near what they have which is pretty much all of the profits and Amber [TS]

  yeah they've basically Apple has has most of the profits in the mobile market [TS]

  and then Samsung has the rest is a Windows Phone get so what what do you [TS]

  think the problem is life why do you think it isn't more successful well so [TS]

  there's three there's actually three phone markets in the world there's the [TS]

  United States which is dominated by you know and and oligopoly of of carriers [TS]

  and is is driven by carrier subsidies and and and weird agreement so there's [TS]

  no means is actually a disincentive for people to buy unlocked handsets they're [TS]

  expensive and you still have to pay the exact same amount for the for the [TS]

  service anyway so there's the us- market and then there's the developed market [TS]

  and rest of the world where most phones are unlocked and you have your choice [TS]

  but there but they're fairly expensive and then there's where the next billion [TS]

  phones are going to come from in the emerging markets have you know India [TS]

  China Africa Brazil you know all those all those places where there's no small [TS]

  dollars per device and razor thin margins but the volume is so huge you [TS]

  can make large amounts of money they're so basically in the you s all the market [TS]

  forces have been distorted by the complete dominance of the carriers which [TS]

  you know steve Jobs was able to actually break that somehow with it [TS]

  thing that nobody else has ever been able to to duplicate and then in and and [TS]

  so as a result you have [TS]

  you know Apple and Samsung basically have all the deals with all the carriers [TS]

  here and that's the us- then you get to you get to Europe for Windows Phone has [TS]

  actually been fairly successful in in in in the UK its I think over 10% Italy in [TS]

  Italy it's it's you know dominant in you know Romania several of the Eastern [TS]

  European country singers pockets there where the the phones they sell for [TS]

  significantly less than an Apple product of course and and there a better quality [TS]

  than a great product and so the market says okay and so they they reward that [TS]

  there and then the real battle field is going to be in the emerging markets now [TS]

  where you know I think and I think Apple's just gonna say if I will skim up [TS]

  that up with the wealthy buyers in these markets will you know will buy will will [TS]

  pay they're the same ones who were coming to the us- buying the products [TS]

  and then bringing them back home will finally be able to buy them directly [TS]

  there and then you'll have this you know basically a battle royal between [TS]

  manufacturers who are building phones based on Android and those who are [TS]

  building phones based on the Windows operating system and now that it's free [TS]

  the competitive landscape for them will change significantly so do you are you [TS]

  optimistic about Windows Phone but well optimistic is hard words isn't it I [TS]

  don't think it's you know I think they're going to get to double-digit [TS]

  market share worldwide that its you think it's gonna be disproportionate [TS]

  around the world it's it's going to be disproportionate around the world [TS]

  yeah I think it's going to be you know Microsoft it's Steve Ballmer used to say [TS]

  you know the one thing about Microsoft as we keep coming to keep hammering at [TS]

  you we won't let you know we we don't quit we don't give up and so you know [TS]

  there's a lot of people out there saying you know Microsoft just fold its tent on [TS]

  this phone [TS]

  incas there you know they went from two and a half percent to 4 percent it took [TS]

  like two years you know if you if you grind out the market share like that you [TS]

  know you're you're never going to get back here your investment that thing [TS]

  well no Xbox maybe proves otherwise [TS]

  Xbox lost money big money for 47 years and now it's a you know it's a [TS]

  successful device it's profitable on its own and has an ecosystem around it and [TS]

  it has the same halo effect that Apple's always counted on for you know for [TS]

  people to buy an iPod and then an iPhone and then maybe a Mac you know him become [TS]

  a full member of the family that Xbox has played that role there so I don't [TS]

  think that Microsoft is going to give up on on the Windows Phone thing you know [TS]

  it's really a lot of institutional barriers to them getting significant [TS]

  market share quickly and it is a weird to me like historical tables have turned [TS]

  where two ME Windows Phone is the classic Mac OS from like the late [TS]

  nineties when there's people who really love it [TS]

  for the design you know and that they can speak very eloquently I really just [TS]

  like the way it works it clicks in my brain which is how I felt as a magnet [TS]

  for all that time and yet you're like the 3rd or 4th platform that developer [TS]

  acts hits when they're shipping an app that sucks right yeah so you know if you [TS]

  wanna call and over in San Francisco you're not going to do it on your [TS]

  Windows Phone I didn't even know that so they don't even have an uber now you [TS]

  know there's a think you have to go to the mobile site and calm [TS]

  well welcome to they would have made a lot of money this week [TS]

  I think being a Mac user 1998 exactly as you know I'm feeling whatever the [TS]

  opposite of schadenfreude his but I sympathize and I do I i think it's you [TS]

  know I even saw on some of the the demyans and the press room there's a [TS]

  beta of Instagram and smooth I mean that's one thing Microsoft has always [TS]

  done well as make things run fast and they're totally hitting that you know 60 [TS]

  frames per second [TS]

  really nice animation no lag no like and like you stop and get it stops it you [TS]

  know it just has that iPhone qualities scrolling and and stuff like that which [TS]

  I have never seen one hundred CSO one of the interesting things was looking at [TS]

  some numbers when I was on the plane coming up here the most recent Gartner [TS]

  projections and and so if you take they did you know phones tablets PCs and [TS]

  hybrid devices ok so we take pics phones out of there cuz it's a billion and it [TS]

  ended weirdly distorts the market because in in some of those emerging [TS]

  markets the only device that people have a bit cheap smartphone but take take [TS]

  that out of there and you actually see you think you know the the PC is dying [TS]

  but but what's actually happening is that the you combine tablets and [TS]

  conventional desktop and notebook PCs in these new hybrid things which ever you [TS]

  know it's a tablet and then you took a keyboard on to it and it's a laptop and [TS]

  then you disconnected and it's a template again and if you combine those [TS]

  three things you get between 2013 and 2015 you get a market that's growing at [TS]

  about three to five percent a year which is not an unhealthy [TS]

  we've got News two things growing at at hyperspeed but that's not an unhealthy [TS]

  growth rate but what's interesting is that the boring PC segment is the one [TS]

  that shrinking and the tablet segment is growing [TS]

  but much more modestly than it did after the the iPad's initial success and the [TS]

  category that seems to be growing fastest this going to garner at least [TS]

  says will will grow fastest in that time is this category of hybrids touch-based [TS]

  devices that you know like like the surface but also like the HP Envy or [TS]

  Asus Transformer t100 in these things and you know that to me that so 21 [TS]

  million of those sold in 2013 sixty-plus million of those will be sold next year [TS]

  that the story I've heard it's one of those things where it's all you can make [TS]

  up the store you can't prove it but the story I've heard on that is you know [TS]

  what wire tablet sales seemingly not as fast as like iPhone in an iPhone like [TS]

  smartphones why is that the sales graph different and I think the just a bit [TS]

  that I've heard I believe it it it it rings true is it's two things one the [TS]

  phone market is so distorted by the contracts you know you buy for two years [TS]

  and it's at a ridiculously low prices your contracts out there like the money [TS]

  with $199 and get a brand new you know or ninety 90 you know and why not and [TS]

  you tend to abuse your phone more thing you know it's a small US most likely get [TS]

  dropped it does get dinged up and you might argue know a lot of people even if [TS]

  they take reasonable care of it might actually need a new one for the battery [TS]

  might have died hold as much of a Chargers with tablets people treat em [TS]

  like they treat PCs which is more or less a day by one and use it till it [TS]

  breaks right knee replacement cycle if if they're like PCs people are going to [TS]

  think of them as a five-year purchased and the the the iPad hasn't even the [TS]

  original iPad's aren't even five years old yet know there are they might not [TS]

  even be four years old yet [TS]

  2010 yeah it was at 11 2010 yeah my parents to have an original one and get [TS]

  a new in early spring [TS]

  knew it works ya na na 350 person it's the last thing I wanted to talk about is [TS]

  I noticed yesterday when I saw an impression that you were working on one [TS]

  of these devices and I you know actually two of them right you worry if you are [TS]

  upgrading but and I thought that was interesting [TS]

  you know that it's you know you don't just cover microsoft and I i'm you know [TS]

  from knowing you from reading your work I don't think you're using one just [TS]

  because you know that's what might decide it seems that you are a proponent [TS]

  of the surface tablets [TS]

  well like I you know it's it's an interesting device part of my decision [TS]

  it's it's funny you ask that because when I came out here remember Mission [TS]

  Impossible series so at the beginning of Mission Impossible the series he you [TS]

  know Peter Graves when it opened this manila folder filled with pictures and [TS]

  he you know bring them out and put it was always the same ones that he chose [TS]

  but he'd set the ones that he chose a side so when I was on my way here had [TS]

  this big lab bench in my office and had about eight devices on there to choose [TS]

  from and had a ship which ones am I going to bring with me as I have they [TS]

  were like 48 inch tablets and a couple of notebooks and a couple of circus [TS]

  family devices and and then this Nokia this Nokia tablet so i said im only [TS]

  gonna bring to see you know I want to see how they work and so they you know [TS]

  the surface is especially the surface Pro two is you know it's a classic [TS]

  example classic Microsoft thing you know they get it right on the 3rd generation [TS]

  this is the second iteration and it's so much better than the original but it's [TS]

  still you know there's just that there's a few things they can do so I think this [TS]

  I think there's going to be a new rendition of it this year and [TS]

  and that will be one where you go out they finally figured everything out and [TS]

  they and they fixed it and I had an iPad there too and I was sorely tempted to [TS]

  bring the iPad and trying new things in office for the office for the iPad but [TS]

  it didn't it wound up in the coal pile and you think part of it too is more [TS]

  than just hardware though it's it ties in with Windows 8.1 which you know key [TS]

  feature is a renewed focus on keyboard and mouse and met by mouse I mean [TS]

  trackpad you know anything that moves the cursor around mouse yeah whatever it [TS]

  it you know it really deals with that that what were they thinking kind of [TS]

  objection to the original one where they just tried to hide all signs of the [TS]

  desktop even though it was there and and and and greatly improved yes its members [TS]

  pro to basically I've been using it almost exclusively as if it were a as it [TS]

  were a laptop but it is you know it is kinda nice it went on and on the plane I [TS]

  can just attach the keyboard from it and send it in and watch a movie on it I [TS]

  think the goal of those hybrid devices you know the theoretical goal is that [TS]

  instead of having to carry a MacBook and an iPad you can just carry one and it [TS]

  becomes it it it it changes personality to suit that the task that you know I'm [TS]

  laughing because that's packed the church of course look at ya and tell the [TS]

  idea the idea is that you know that it you if you had something if you had an [TS]

  iPad that could you know magically run OS 10 it had a keyboard attached to it [TS]

  when you take it off and it's you know and it's running iOS so what did you [TS]

  have in the keynote when you were in the keynote hall what did you using a laptop [TS]

  or were you using I was using the surface primarily because it has the [TS]

  things they fixed in version to that made it better than version one is this [TS]

  thing called the tape cover the cliques in and it has an illuminated keyboard in [TS]

  its usable on a laptop that's why I asked [TS]

  you know what the press well first of all the press had they gave us tables [TS]

  they never give us give us they gave us tables and wired Ethernet connections in [TS]

  in [TS]

  I think there is like free beer and everything but but no but I have been [TS]

  using that on with the with the type cover it actually does work on your lap [TS]

  as a as a laptop with the first version the first edition which only had one [TS]

  stop for the little hinge that comes out from the back there [TS]

  you know you sort of head to play statue if you if you sit just right and you [TS]

  don't move you can actually type on this thing but it was it it flexed and and [TS]

  and it wasn't a comfortable experience this is more so it actually feels a lot [TS]

  like feels a lot like a laptop if I'm at home I will either have a tablet which [TS]

  you know could be a Windows tablet or an iPad if I'm you know sitting on the [TS]

  couch or a notebook I want you know the surface doesn't know I won't use the [TS]

  service in that mode I haven't heard a word you said last three minutes cause [TS]

  all I can keep thinking about is how nice of you to have a table [TS]