The Talk Show

75: We Used to Finger Each Other


  I got a lot to talk about see you have been blogging you you're like a [TS]

  microfuge state honestly because you are I know firsthand I my room we want our [TS]

  best per year but much but I dunno internally that you are in a super [TS]

  productive mode there but you're also super productive publicly on an [TS]

  essential for the last couple of months yeah there's two things really go [TS]

  together well for me actually they feed each other I had it I know what the [TS]

  Colorado writers instinct to publishers in stating something I really like to [TS]

  make stuff public whether it's cold or or writing and I'm happiest when I can [TS]

  do that so if I'm just writing code you know when it's a while between the [TS]

  leases and I'm not doing any public communication all actually less [TS]

  productive even though technically I suppose I have more time but I'm just [TS]

  less and less happy about it so I really like writing I was a writer before I was [TS]

  a code or not probably be a writer after encoder and so you know makes me happy [TS]

  it makes me also let me work stuff out kind of in public and get feedback and [TS]

  learn things and a lot of the stuff I've been doing I'm literally been like other [TS]

  problem also demonstrating how to solve it I just had to write it in my head it [TS]

  and then press publishes the end and you think you get the answer because you've [TS]

  thought it through by writing it or you get the answer then because you publish [TS]

  it and somebody who reaches a you know ships in with the answer both actually [TS]

  sitting down to to write it gets me a lot of the way there and sometimes all [TS]

  the way there but then sometimes the feedback [TS]

  that I get will you make me change my mind in small ways are big ways about [TS]

  about what i decided i mean is you know far from an original ops observation its [TS]

  famous observation but writing is thinking and if you can't write it out [TS]

  you haven't thought it through and sometimes when you do write it out you [TS]

  you you gotta be I'm always always want to be ready when I'm writing something [TS]

  out if it's like an argument or if I have a point I'm trying to make it's not [TS]

  an open-ended question [TS]

  be careful that by the time you get to the end you haven't changed your mind [TS]

  and you don't know it you know and don't be a hero and then you may have to go [TS]

  back and rewrite the whole thing but don't be afraid to do that and I can't [TS]

  tell you how many times I got pieces longer pieces for daring fireball by the [TS]

  time I get to the end I think wait a second I just have just convinced myself [TS]

  that the other point just by writing it all out [TS]

  yeah I'm not surprised and certainly the same way for me it's a very common thing [TS]

  I have a lot of developer friends though who i find you know and and who on and [TS]

  off over the years have had very enjoyable to me blogs that go dark for [TS]

  huge periods of time and a lot of times in a fight I want to give them a hard [TS]

  time about a bit of us say something to them about it [TS]

  the display here I've just been so busy programming are working that it's like [TS]

  that and I feel like with you it's the other way around you said it's the other [TS]

  way around like when you're most productive working you're also most [TS]

  productive blogging even on stuff that's not [TS]

  related to your work yeah that's true I love blogging I'm doing it since 1999 [TS]

  its [TS]

  in if you look at the sufferer Debbie it's always been about reading and [TS]

  writing that's that's what I really love that's what I first saw in the web and [TS]

  that's what made me become a programmer because it was this great great platform [TS]

  for reading and writing so it's no surprise you know I do a lot of reading [TS]

  and writing and that's what i'm happy when i'm happy and productive so one of [TS]

  the things you've been writing about this week maybe last week and a half its [TS]

  it a broad topic and I don't want to get into I want to get into it it sort of [TS]

  the layman's level because there are so many other sites or podcast like debug [TS]

  and and even Marco and Syracuse another guy show ATP that can get into more [TS]

  technical discussions but this whole thing about Objective C and the future [TS]

  of programming on Apple's platforms is it always going to be objective see or [TS]

  is there some other language that that's going to come in and a newer style [TS]

  language that's going to come in and superseded eventually and this is this [TS]

  is like the most [TS]

  evergreen of topics because I forget when John Siracusa started writing about [TS]

  it but he called it copeland 2010 so he must have must have been back in like [TS]

  2005 2006 ya close to ten years ago I think that he started writing like hey [TS]

  you know I'm not saying they have to do it you know [TS]

  typical Syracuse reasonableness [TS]

  but it seems like they should eventually you know there's got to be some point in [TS]

  the future where it just seems antiquated that you're writing in a [TS]

  language that has pointers yeah that's that's true in part of it i think is [TS]

  that a lot of developers can sort of feel that there is a revolution but we [TS]

  don't know what it looks like we can guess ya languages have pointers perhaps [TS]

  but it just feels like there has to be a better faster way to do what we're doing [TS]

  there's still a lot of silliness you know right and non-programmers out there [TS]

  a pointer is a variable that points to it [TS]

  space and memory directly and if we screw up a point are you heard you're [TS]

  probably gonna crash right i mean it's safe to say are you going to the [TS]

  program's gonna go awry right things go wrong way I've explained appointees to [TS]

  say that there's a difference between your house the address of your house [TS]

  yes right to the point is the address of your house right now to get that wrong [TS]

  well that's right and then you start doing things thinking that's a perfect [TS]

  analogy and you think you're in your house and you start doing things you [TS]

  know you're taking a bath and somebody [TS]

  everyone's surprised in town I was gonna make another attempt the explicit [TS]

  yeah I was going there my head too so I love I'm a sucker for especially as I [TS]

  get older I'm a sucker for analogies like such and such is his old now as [TS]

  blank was then right where I think I got it I think this is one from think this [TS]

  is true and yeah we're about as far away from the time of the first Back to the [TS]

  Future movie as Back to the Future was from 1955 them or whatever year was they [TS]

  went back to write it was like 30 went back in time thirty years will now we're [TS]

  thirty years ahead which is crazy right it doesn't feel like like back to the [TS]

  future with his long ago is when he went back it felt like he went back to the [TS]

  stone ages show about you went back to before we were born right so Objective C [TS]

  is a really weird thing that was glammed on top of see right there was the the [TS]

  the people the geniuses behind it [TS]

  see had no object orientation built in but see is sort of was still probably [TS]

  years sort of the bedrock language of all program and is remarkably plastic so [TS]

  you can do stuff like injected see out of it right but everybody agrees I think [TS]

  and agreed certainly agreed when it first came out it its syntax is weird [TS]

  because they've said look it it's just a superset of see so you can always you're [TS]

  always in C but you can if it's in Objective C file you can do these other [TS]

  things mostly all you know largely with like square brackets [TS]

  and make it object oriented and they did this because they had good C compilers [TS]

  that they could build on top of and they just needed to like the first versions [TS]

  of objective see it was just a preprocessor right that's right that's [TS]

  like the story just sort of behind the scenes rewrote your objective CSC and [TS]

  compilers and it made a lot of sense and it's a typical sort of mines that were [TS]

  behind the whole next system a sort of let's not boil the ocean which the least [TS]

  we can do [TS]

  mindset but the thing is that this is what to me is is no need to that was [TS]

  around 1988 1989 inanimate object of see it was a that's when next started using [TS]

  it and and for all intents and purposes [TS]

  you know it's next hadn't used Objective C probably nobody today would have you [TS]

  heard it it would've been long gone [TS]

  would have been just like an experiment historical footnote but CEO was only [TS]

  from water and 1970 or so right 1968 1969 1970 so we'll see was only twenty [TS]

  years old but I remember when I was like in high school and next came out and I [TS]

  was reading about it and magazines it seemed like well of course these guys [TS]

  would build a non si si this ancient language that was ubiquitous but it's [TS]

  only twenty it was only twenty years old at the time there is now Objective C has [TS]

  been around at least in the next step you know frameworks use as the basis for [TS]

  all the next to happen [TS]

  Mac OS 10 and iOS frameworks since 1989 so it's it's actually been the [TS]

  foundation of the whole next arrived operating systems for longer than see [TS]

  existed when they got started and they're still stills I was about to say [TS]

  stuck with it and that perjury I don't wanna be pejorative but they're still [TS]

  using it right and so i think there's just an argument just on based on the [TS]

  time line that maybe you know maybe something newer should have come out by [TS]

  now [TS]

  yeah but you know so at the same time if you compare today's Objective C to what [TS]

  was what people writing in 1989 [TS]

  stops recognize those square brackets but it's really changed time right in [TS]

  that goes to apples apples typical method of incremental changes lots of [TS]

  small many revolutions as opposed to a whole new language and frameworks that [TS]

  kinda stuff right it's it's it's certainly don't mean to imply that it [TS]

  has been unchanged probably added more than they added at the origin yeah and [TS]

  you know in many ways it is easier to write apps than it was 10 years ago [TS]

  there's there's a lot of stuff we could do very easily that we couldn't do then [TS]

  and that that's been due to changes in Objective C in there and the frameworks [TS]

  blocks are a big part of that for instance makes a Grand Central Dispatch [TS]

  makes handling multithreading and concurrency like they used to be which [TS]

  is great still down hill though it's still it still feels like we're using [TS]

  this really really old stuff [TS]

  their ire there's just gotta be a better way [TS]

  yeah and I think a lot of that really came to light and hit a flashpoint and [TS]

  thence has since died down during the gold rush era of iOS development right [TS]

  the first set said it's a 2008 2009 when it became a huge sensation to be writing [TS]

  iPhone apps and app store was growing you know every single Apple event it was [TS]

  like an order of magnitude more here is that you know is amazing we've already [TS]

  got six thousand apps in the App Store and it was you know couple months later [TS]

  we've got sixty thousand apps in the App Store and then it was 600,000 apps in [TS]

  the App Store and so you were ahead this time when all of a sudden there were way [TS]

  more programmers using these frameworks in the language and Apple's developer [TS]

  tools than there ever were before combined you know after what about [TS]

  twenty years you know the first twenty years from 88 until 2008 it was all next [TS]

  and that was really small a real small community then then with Mac OS 10 it [TS]

  became my gate [TS]

  a healthy sized community but still in a niche in the overall programming [TS]

  community and then with the iPhone it became one of the top languages in the [TS]

  entire industry I never expected that to happen and I think they're worth it to [TS]

  all those programmers you know and the weirdness is of it just it was a you [TS]

  guys kidding me [TS]

  yeah and and yet it was an advantage because I think objectives he can write [TS]

  write code that actually performed well enough especially early iPhones that [TS]

  that the ABS ended up being better than absolute competing Pat platforms and [TS]

  some of it is just stylistic in it has nothing to do with the language I one of [TS]

  the things that some people object to is the fact that I think it goes on a date [TS]

  all the way back to the next year's but it's it stays through today that Apple's [TS]

  API's tend to be like if you have a [TS]

  I command it tends to be very verbose and explicit and looking at your blog [TS]

  right now in a fight for timeline note and it scared they're gonna spell that [TS]

  out they're not going to make short little abbreviated [TS]

  function calls like traditional sea or in certain other languages [TS]

  that's a stylistic know and I that would not change is no way that would change [TS]

  if if and when Apple moves to a new language it's it's the the language [TS]

  itself i think is controversial yeah I think that's right yeah that this tight [TS]

  it's a good style mean we have a complete rights how the interaction at [TS]

  the type something like time like no type 18 suggest what I want returning it [TS]

  goes but it really makes for nicely readable code and if we were using some [TS]

  other language I would definitely want to use that same style I think most Mac [TS]

  developers must iOS developers I hope would agree with you before you were [TS]

  trading with the cocoa frameworks were you [TS]

  when you add writer and code words you will use with your style is verbose I [TS]

  think I tended toward using real words over abbreviations separate comment [TS]

  things like you know the variable I for Lou obviously but I think I think I [TS]

  wrote a little bit as if it was a writer writing code and I think that's exactly [TS]

  what the Apple style is is that it's meant to be read in that it does it [TS]

  dates back to a time before most editors had autocomplete and stuff like that [TS]

  like famously I think that in the early years next developers were using txt [TS]

  Edit to rate to write their code ouch yeah i know im glad I did not work on [TS]

  this in the days before a complete because it makes a huge difference but I [TS]

  think it frees them to be a little bit more verbose so compare contrast with [TS]

  with Microsoft Microsoft has moved back to you can trade Searcy plus + code but [TS]

  that they have C sharp which is a you know it's a more Java like language and [TS]

  it's you know a lot more modern syntactical elements and I'm not saying [TS]

  it's better I'm just saying it's clearly more modern I seen a little bit sharp [TS]

  and you know that she does but I don't know a ton about it right and it's it's [TS]

  it's not see sharp in particular but just the fact that Microsoft had clearly [TS]

  had been working on it you know and and had a sort of long-term plan we you know [TS]

  we need to we need to have a language that is [TS]

  that has these traits of a modern language you know eventually and they've [TS]

  had it you know it's been out for years now and then Apple is still on [TS]

  Objective C I wonder how much of that was just kind of recognizing a good [TS]

  opportunity originally they had details around but they were using job and they [TS]

  were adding methods and son probably sued them yeah something like that right [TS]

  so C sharp is basically like alright well we're not gonna use Java reading [TS]

  you something just a job only with those extra methods and a couple of [TS]

  differences right and so no child of jobber not a fork exactly what kind of [TS]

  but but then they were smart enough to realize hey this is an important thing [TS]

  we can add all kinds of goodness do it they've done so you wrote in one ear [TS]

  pieces of the last week was imagining scripting language where instead of [TS]

  picking one specific language and saying you know maybe here's the language there [TS]

  should go with it was just a sort of hypothetical and there was a language [TS]

  that had these features [TS]

  and the gist [TS]

  though is that it would make things alot easier for you as a programmer if the [TS]

  language worked as intended it should eliminate certain types of errors that [TS]

  you can make in a language like Objective C that are sometimes hard to [TS]

  track down but then you asked at the end would I use this language and that one [TS]

  of the big stopping point would be that if it and this would be a compiled [TS]

  language like Objective C you run the code through a compiler and out of the [TS]

  compiler comes a binary blob of executable code and that's what the the [TS]

  computer runs in a scripting language you you might Compiler runtime but it's [TS]

  actually this code that ships in the app that and that to you pointed out would [TS]

  be the the sort of big while I don't know if I could use this right and other [TS]

  words that the app bundle itself might have a tiny little bit of executable [TS]

  code that you can't really read the source code to but then huge chunks of [TS]

  the app would ship in source files in the app bundle that anybody could just [TS]

  show bundle contents and go in there and start people right now that technical [TS]

  problem is fairly easy because a scripting language can typically be [TS]

  compiled down to some form of bytecode which is not quite as big as binary [TS]

  binary code but fairly close so well that post was in a way [TS]

  me thinking about getting getting taking the long and weird way around to [TS]

  thinking about what if we just open source our apps really well and that's [TS]

  that's what I want to do that's where I was kind of going and and [TS]

  let's let's call it capital O open source is when you actually publish the [TS]

  source code and you put an official license on at the MIT license or BSD [TS]

  license or you know GPL heard something like that [TS]

  officially opens as opposed to let's call it lower case [TS]

  00 open source where you don't license it you don't give anybody permission to [TS]

  to do the things that officially open source apps can do but that the source [TS]

  code is just there in the app for people to look sort of like I I would compare [TS]

  that to the way the web largely works great like daring fireball is not open [TS]

  source but you know famously you know it's it's now almost all you know in the [TS]

  nineties how we all learn to build websites you can go to the View menu [TS]

  view source and there's the HTML and Javascript and CSS for your website like [TS]

  what would happen if our apps room were more like that I think that's a very [TS]

  interesting what it actually really enjoy that a lot and part of me would [TS]

  just enjoy it as as going back to my blog we give me more to write about it [TS]

  more concrete examples like here look at this thing in my source code see what I [TS]

  did there what do you think of that kind of thing I'd really like that and if [TS]

  other people could could learn from it or tell me how I could do things [TS]

  differently to be really cool I mean I enjoy that I think the web community has [TS]

  had a lot of that and we have not [TS]

  yeah and I don't think that that lower case [TS]

  00 open source nature of the web [TS]

  hurt the innovative designers and developers who made the most and still [TS]

  make you know the most clever designs and figure out the coolest tricks I [TS]

  don't think anybody really suffered from that copy and paste ability I mean sure [TS]

  it enabled some people to do wholesale just rip off the whole website type rip [TS]

  us that would maybe wouldn't have been possible if the web had been some kind [TS]

  of binary blob format but I don't know that that release as annoying as it can [TS]

  be [TS]

  I've certainly seen that over the years i think is daring fireball design get [TS]

  older it's it's not happened as much recently but you know my site's been [TS]

  ripped off a lot of times in its annoying but it's not like anybody's [TS]

  ever ripped it off and set me back right like I've never lost a reader because [TS]

  somebody has a site that to clone of mine I've never lost advertising dollar [TS]

  because of it and usually if you send a person if somebody you know if you send [TS]

  him an email say hey that's cool they change it [TS]

  yeah a lot of the times its people who really have no idea that that's not cool [TS]

  I'm not sure that it would you know that the effect wouldn't be similar with apps [TS]

  can feel like it would be i mean there there's the fear that someone just the [TS]

  rip off right they just kinda reskin things change from blue to green policy [TS]

  with their own name [TS]

  you know and make money that we should have made but again that's like someone [TS]

  on notice someone write to them you know there are mechanisms handling that kind [TS]

  of bad behavior but in general people would would learn from I i know i would [TS]

  love to see the source for other acts sometimes I'm like love to know [TS]

  especially if it wasn't entirely copy and paste the ball like if there was [TS]

  just a wee bit of you know I go back of executable binary blob in there so that [TS]

  somebody who's who truly just has the intention of cloning the app couldn't [TS]

  quite just copy and paste the whole a bundle but if most of the app were like [TS]

  that and if you saw this cool effect of you know the way that a little action [TS]

  she pops off the screen and it doesn't look like it's not the system default [TS]

  way that it's dismissed it's another way and you want to see how to do that you [TS]

  could just open it up and say oh I see they did it they did it this way I think [TS]

  most programmers for her beyond the beginning stage are really looking for a [TS]

  copy and paste code at least when it comes to looking for [TS]

  techniques they want to understand how you did something like that code but if [TS]

  you can see how you put that together how you got a certain effect whatever [TS]

  they can duplicate that in their own way their own code copy and paste [TS]

  the cool thing let me take a break and take her first break and thank our first [TS]

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  they've been on the show before but if you don't have a basic ideas it's sorta [TS]

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  deployed 10 petabytes of storage that's 10,000 terabytes wow or ten million [TS]

  gigabytes of storage that's how much there's been deployed by Transport [TS]

  assume you're talking about real story which I yeah it's I actually had to look [TS]

  that up because I didn't know what it was [TS]

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  actually pretty small so maybe figured as tons not leader literal tons but to [TS]

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  it's a nice way to replicate data across two locations really really easy to set [TS]

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  go to File transporter dot com slash talk TLK file transporter dot com slash [TS]

  talk my thanks to file transporter [TS]

  so talking about taking apps with a mix of scripting languages and and compiled [TS]

  code do you remember the c4 talk from couple of years ago from Troy gon who [TS]

  was added to be at the time about the way the day architected Lightroom yeah [TS]

  they use a lot of an awful lot of those yeah exactly [TS]

  cool so and at first you might think well that's crazy because lightroom is a [TS]

  professional photo management tool is super CPU intensive like I use Lightroom [TS]

  I'm happy Lightroom user all the way from 1.0 it is the probably the number [TS]

  one album I system that actually stresses Mike my computer and they're [TS]

  not enlarge ways but you know it's just doing a lot you know the modern camera [TS]

  for you if you shoot in RAW they're just big files with lots of pixels and and [TS]

  interpreting raw photos is is processor intensive in a new place shelters all [TS]

  these things and they all show up live but so the thing is that stuff the stuff [TS]

  that you think of the image manipulation is all written in C or C++ some kind of [TS]

  traditional high-performance language and a shared code across the Adobe Suite [TS]

  you know it's the way that you know it's very sad why they call it the official [TS]

  name is adobe photoshop lightroom [TS]

  but did you know it's the same image processing engine from Photoshop it's [TS]

  the interface that largely written in which totally makes sense that people [TS]

  don't realize what percentage of code is actually interface code and a lot of it [TS]

  is just tedious boring stuff like make sure that button is disabled when [TS]

  somebody of data has changed and there's just an enormous amount of that stuff [TS]

  even goes into a psycho like right labrum or even small iPhone outside [TS]

  carriers in none of that has to be CPU intensive it's just like you know [TS]

  something changed update the display slightly you know it's never going to be [TS]

  slow [TS]

  yeah you need you need to see your objectives he for the slow parts but the [TS]

  rest of it [TS]

  find the slower scripting language and I'll still be a thousand times faster [TS]

  than what you need and I'm 99% sure that you can do what we were talking about [TS]

  and pop open the Lightroom bundle and if you poke around in there you'll find Lua [TS]

  scripts and it doesn't in any way enable somebody to [TS]

  you know do a Lightroom clone it just shows you the the way they've done some [TS]

  of the Interfax [TS]

  i think thats super interesting and it's sort of a a living example of of the [TS]

  things you know sort of thing you're talking about but it's weird because [TS]

  lately has been out for a number of years now and it doesn't seem to have [TS]

  that method of architecting an app doesn't seem to have caught on like I'm [TS]

  not aware of anybody else who's doing that although I guess a lot of games [TS]

  that's one thing I remember is that a lot of games are like that where they'll [TS]

  write the hardcourt graphic stuff you know instance or something like that but [TS]

  the setup menus and stuff like that the stuff that's not intensive is often [TS]

  written in this scripting language and it's often lure yeah I do is really big [TS]

  four games any games you can you can see why did not as soon as the choice but [TS]

  that some scripting language is the choice because they're often designed to [TS]

  be cross platform and they're using their own UI stuff [TS]

  so much so yeah it does make sense to do it that way particularly for games the [TS]

  promise doing it for something like something like our apt more traditional [TS]

  IRAs for Mac is that you lose the built-in tools during debugging [TS]

  performance now says I would have a better autocomplete is going to work so [TS]

  you're kind of slowed down an awful lot and and that's a shame because the idea [TS]

  behind using scripting languages to develop more rapidly scripting languages [TS]

  are fine maybe that's why they're more rapid but you know there's usually less [TS]

  fiddly bits to worry about so you can move quickly but if you can if you don't [TS]

  have a built-in tools for this it actually slower and more difficult I i [TS]

  apologize for not having a better memory especially if trays out there let me [TS]

  listen to the show I don't know if Adobe has good debugging tools for their [TS]

  lowest stuff but I do know that they are the way they set up the cross platform [TS]

  framework it's the it's genius and it's the right way it's that and I know that [TS]

  Lightroom looks largely the same when you're running on Windows and this is [TS]

  one of the reasons why they are connected it this way where they have [TS]

  their own sort of non interface related image processing library and the heart [TS]

  and thats cross-platform and then their rabies Lua scripts for the interface and [TS]

  thats cross-platform but like when the Lua script says give me a text field [TS]

  here it's a native text real so the text field you're typing if you're typing a [TS]

  caption for a photo you get all the code text editing shortcuts running on a Mac [TS]

  and I presume you're running on Windows you get all the windows ones and that's [TS]

  the sort of thing we're we're cross-platform stuff has always [TS]

  historically fallen down where you get these weird mood man text fields that [TS]

  are like almost like a native text field but there's you know then you try to [TS]

  escape to auto complete a word or something that you can do on the Mac and [TS]

  it doesn't work and then it's that's weird right yeah that's totally wrong [TS]

  way so you you've got to set things up so that if your script or whatever says [TS]

  new textfield that there's some later that says which platform I am i what [TS]

  what type of tax return [TS]

  yeah yeah so I think you're right in the large in this is one of the things that [TS]

  you've written about that ultimately and there's a lot of cool experiments going [TS]

  on out there what was the was the new one that you sort of get you started on [TS]

  this its objectives small talk [TS]

  yes also looked new and you and Ruby motion right but which is the one where [TS]

  it's it's it's like you're like the the example code was validating forum so [TS]

  that's reacted coca y a reactive which is not a new language I think it's just [TS]

  a new way of doing just some stuff kind of turning into more functional [TS]

  declarative dang but the thing is not in order to do that no offense to her [TS]

  rather than guys people working on this but it's just totally not gonna do that [TS]

  doesn't look like it doesn't look like cocoa to me you know yeah I can learn to [TS]

  read it maybe learn to think it's not overly back I just don't want him [TS]

  with any of these things so it's cool that they hope you know that people are [TS]

  experimenting in the public with them get the best that you can hope for is [TS]

  not that that the that these outside projects are going to catch on and take [TS]

  over but that one of them is gonna get the attention within apple and get Apple [TS]

  to officially supported because it's the bottom line is if it isn't really part [TS]

  of what Apple is endorsing and publishing it's never going to have [TS]

  enough integration with the the built-in tools and think that and with the [TS]

  community at large that there's a huge advantage to be writing your code the [TS]

  same way the majority of the development community is so that you can you know if [TS]

  there is like a third party framework you want to integrate with its already [TS]

  you know it's written in the same style that's one of the things I'd like to add [TS]

  cocoa in general is that there are very strong conventions for how to do things [TS]

  and my coat although pretty much like somebody else's code but at the same [TS]

  time I am very glad that people are experimenting doing you know I got a [TS]

  little pushback reactive Coco research project but I think it is it's a public [TS]

  research project and I'm glad it's happening and I hope Apple takes note of [TS]

  transact functional programming and bring some of this some of their [TS]

  sovereignty Coco yeah I don't think research project is is a pejorative at [TS]

  all I don't think that that's in any way you putting it down or dismissing it [TS]

  wasn't meant to be right I i I think maybe because some research projects in [TS]

  some fields are so pie in the sky and and sort of removed from practicality [TS]

  that you could see it that way but that you know clearly that's not what they're [TS]

  doing they're actually saying you can write code today like this you can use [TS]

  this ship which I may be is where their objection comes from yeah maybe maybe to [TS]

  you research project and wise don't use this production code right and yeah I [TS]

  don't mean I don't mean that at all it is used [TS]

  ethylene production code and the people who like it really really like it and [TS]

  that's cool I want them to keep using it and want to keep pushing I think that's [TS]

  great I'm just not gonna join in on that particular project going [TS]

  highly sympathetic to it and to its goals right let me take a second break I [TS]

  know exactly where I go from this let me take a second break and thank our good [TS]

  friends at an Event Apart you guys know an Event Apart their longtime sponsor [TS]

  the show [TS]

  they are the conference for web developers and web designers they have [TS]

  shows all over the country this year for you to check out upcoming events for an [TS]

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  November it's such a great conference they have the best speakers two days of [TS]

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  standards-based web design their founded by the web visionaries Eric Meyer and [TS]

  Jeffrey Feltman who also happen to be two fantastic speakers but its 12 [TS]

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  go to hearsay find out and Event Apart dot com slash talk-show check out the [TS]

  schedules check out the dates if you work as a web developer designer and you [TS]

  haven't been doing better part are you having been recently you really owe it [TS]

  to yourself [TS]

  it is the conference to go to I can't recommend it enough so an Event Apart [TS]

  dot com slash talk show my thanks to an event part so here's maybe the counter [TS]

  argument to you know this I think maybe the big question is does a ball that [TS]

  Apple did the people inside out but the decision makers who who would sort of be [TS]

  able to pull the trigger on hey maybe we should move start start stepping away [TS]

  from Objective C as the the the language and had a higher level scripting [TS]

  language on top of it and then use objective see only for performance [TS]

  intensive thanks do they agree with that do they see that there's a need for this [TS]

  and and I i i i think from the outside it [TS]

  indeterminate I don't think anybody knows and it's you know typical for [TS]

  Apple that they play their cards close to the vest [TS]

  the catch with moving to a language a newer language a language with cooler it [TS]

  make you know and easier to use language let's put it that way is that it comes [TS]

  with a performance cost right and interpreted language run slower than a [TS]

  compiled language but it's easier to use an interpreted language as a just as a [TS]

  basic rule of thumb [TS]

  people were calling for this and like I said Syracuse arose in 2004 2005 but [TS]

  then at a time when you know when switching to Intel Macs were getting way [TS]

  faster and performance wasn't quite so important but then came the iPhone which [TS]

  only had a hundred and twenty eight megabytes of memory and ran on this at [TS]

  the you know even by today's standards ARM processor I mean what was I think [TS]

  the stat that they showed when 25 C 50 S and 50 came out and they introduced the [TS]

  a seven system-on-a-chip is that it's forty times faster than the original [TS]

  iPhone CPU so let's just face it the original iPhone as a target for [TS]

  Objective C was incredibly memory constrained and incredibly slow and so [TS]

  having you know you needed every bit of performance that you get like having [TS]

  this developer framework ready to go [TS]

  based on a a sea level language [TS]

  was a huge advantage and still probably is to this day I would I would think I [TS]

  mean I think maybe the modern I was devices are fast enough that some of [TS]

  this stuff could obviously you know and like we said games are in a have some [TS]

  interface stuff written in Lua but as the foundation for Apple's development [TS]

  efforts for the API's it makes sense that they were still using a sea level [TS]

  language instead of higher-level language a green yeah yeah I think so [TS]

  they you know I westerly breathe a lot of life into Objective C I think it [TS]

  extended its longevity because it was such a huge advantage in to a certain [TS]

  extent still remains so before the average at there is so much stuff just [TS]

  simple UI stuff that might as well be written in the slowest interpreted [TS]

  language he can think of and you wouldn't kill tell the difference here [TS]

  for instance you I wanna do when the enemy this stuff from here to there the [TS]

  fact that I'm using Objective C doesn't matter at all because what I'm doing is [TS]

  sending you know and objects [TS]

  a destination for a min capacity or whatever and then making a call to to [TS]

  the frameworks that actually does the animation if I was using scripting [TS]

  language instead of Objective C BB same exacting I'm saying you know this from [TS]

  here to there [TS]

  change it to pass your colors something and then making essentially the same [TS]

  call in to actually do the animation to the animation would just be just as fast [TS]

  justice mood actually no different and probably other things with your enabling [TS]

  disabling buttons or swiping from screen to screen or whatever makes absolutely [TS]

  no difference if you're using Objective C vs something I could be Apple script [TS]

  rate [TS]

  terrible and slow and so much of the average a nine-game is just that stuff [TS]

  and then there's some core there needs to be fast image processing database or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  parsing stuff from the web you want that to be quick but you know you can you can [TS]

  easily isolate that core right and so in other words it's yeah I like I I think [TS]

  my hunch was wrong on my thinking was well what if the next generation of [TS]

  devices is way smaller still you know whether it is a watch or to watch sized [TS]

  device or something just truly physically tiny compared to even an [TS]

  iPhone it doesn't matter if you were app is largely specified in its slow [TS]

  scripting language as long as the frameworks that it's really that's [TS]

  actually doing all the work are written in fast type language like Objective C [TS]

  yeah yeah exactly right yeah I think the old-timers out there calling objectives [TS]

  here fast language is probably making all the right right right yeah that was [TS]

  always the knock against Objective C four years was that it was it was this [TS]

  added layer oversee and that it wasn't just the language is that there is this [TS]

  runtime that was implicit with using it that that it was slow and it was in [TS]

  certain you know by certain standards it was slow but now we've gotten to the [TS]

  point where did you know that that layer of indirection doesn't matter so I [TS]

  there have been times in like in in the very most performance intensive care [TS]

  where I gonna direction of Moammar going straight see over Objective C either [TS]

  something like that but in any direction with dealing with RSS pricing [TS]

  particularly surprising a whole bunch of feeds all at once and you're creating a [TS]

  bunch of objective see objects in dealing with things that that I would [TS]

  call a higher level I can imagine higher-level skills you know it would be [TS]

  slow and the more I can do stuff in see things would be a lot faster but just [TS]

  the most critical area [TS]

  objectives he is so much faster than what we need for everything else yeah [TS]

  like 99% of so what what's your hunch do you think that Apple has a plan for some [TS]

  sort of next-generation language [TS]

  know so one thing I've learned about Apple engineers is there a lot like [TS]

  people who work on on iOS and Mac apps outside of Apple you know they have the [TS]

  same kind of interest and they noticed the same things they think about the [TS]

  same things so my hunches surely people inside Apple who like those of us [TS]

  outside who do think but whether that is actually gotten to the point of making a [TS]

  plan or anyone anyone seriously doing some work on this I just have no idea [TS]

  they can point to their their approach which is you know we give you a major [TS]

  new upgrades properties blocks of this kind of stuff and it's working look how [TS]

  many absolutely how successful the app ecosystem is they could say yeah I think [TS]

  so too and the other thing too I've learned over the years observing Apple [TS]

  is that just the way that they think institutionally and it always comes back [TS]

  to this is don't get too focused on any particular solution always concentrate [TS]

  on the problem and that sometimes the solution to the problem isn't the thing [TS]

  everybody thinks is the solution to the problem so I would say Grand Central [TS]

  Dispatch is a perfect example of that [TS]

  where the problem is I would say the problem is that two-fold one parallel [TS]

  programming has always been notoriously difficult in other words having multi [TS]

  threads at the same time running it's always been a member in college I don't [TS]

  know how I passed the course [TS]

  and in the second problem is a hardware one which is that the semi-conductor [TS]

  industry ran into a sort of the end of Moore's Law where they can't keep [TS]

  putting more trend you know transistors on ships in the gigahertz stopped going [TS]

  up i mean we've you know we've been stuck it somewhere around three [TS]

  gigahertz for high end CPUs for a long time now and so the way that we're [TS]

  making CPUs faster is by adding more course instead of course but that means [TS]

  the only way to take advantage of it is to run more code in parallel and and the [TS]

  way that GCD work to get into the details of it goes again that's you know [TS]

  this program source but it's it wasn't like it when they introduced to the WWDC [TS]

  it wasn't one of the things I finally exactly what we've been asking for it [TS]

  was whoa I've never seen anything like this before [TS]

  that's really thats sound really clever if it works as they're saying but it was [TS]

  pretty original yeah well for one thing it did it took away the idea threads and [TS]

  how to think about cues which is [TS]

  higher level of abstraction which was really nice so I wouldn't I wouldn't be [TS]

  surprised if I would be surprised if the the problem is Apple sees it is that we [TS]

  should be writing less Objective C code for our apps if the answer is something [TS]

  different then we should be writing in some other language and I don't know [TS]

  what that would be on that clever enough to think of it but maybe storyboards is [TS]

  a good example of that was certainly a Apple likes the idea of you as much as [TS]

  we can in Interface Builder I think a lot of developers like that too because [TS]

  everything you do there's lightning coach you don't have to write so in case [TS]

  our listeners are aware of the old the old idea was to have one file per screen [TS]

  basically need laid out visually and storyboards you can kind of put together [TS]

  a hole after an entire section with the transitions and stuff all other ones [TS]

  like a storybook the movie but that doesn't necessarily save you a ton of [TS]

  code I mean it seems you the same area code used to get said used to say but [TS]

  the older method I don't know I'm still on the fence about story but it's you [TS]

  know I don't know about that and Interface Builder itself has always been [TS]

  it's obvious you know they it's been there since the beginning and it was one [TS]

  of you know going back to the next era [TS]

  you know it was an early very you know ahead of its time in terms of laying out [TS]

  big chunks of the at visually instead of just encode there's an awful lot of [TS]

  developers I know yourself included who in a lot of cases just prefer to do it [TS]

  in code and find it to be easier and less work [TS]

  yeah and well and part of that is I can eliminate the bouncing around right if [TS]

  if it's right there it's right there in the code to leave the code figure out [TS]

  what the heck's going on and I had to go over to this other thing right [TS]

  officially laid it out and it also works better with source control management [TS]

  things like that against interviews we've got actually using a storyboard in [TS]

  our next release of desperate actually had in polly's just cause I need to [TS]

  learn but you know that section that actually really make sense it's a [TS]

  self-contained a navigation controller analyst but you don't see it so much as [TS]

  about writing less Objective C code than you did before it's just a different way [TS]

  of using a visual interface told them I mean it will save some code but the kind [TS]

  of cold it's really simple needs you to write so it's not that big a deal but [TS]

  when I would love to see in Interface Builder and storyboards is for people [TS]

  like you and Dave to go in there and actually make it work like it should [TS]

  write you know it's going to look like this and close in a lot of ways I mean [TS]

  you you could sit there so it wasn't a full-time program repeated their layout [TS]

  text fields and all this kind of stuff and then you can test interface you [TS]

  would see what it's going to look like without it [TS]

  any code but it's not really the interface right in the funds will be [TS]

  right there will be a lot of missing pieces [TS]

  but I'd love is for you to be able to actually do all the work and then me [TS]

  decoder sit back and do things like database API's or don't you think maybe [TS]

  a better way to put it would be for like me and Dave not necessary to do all the [TS]

  work but to do all the middling yeah sure right which is okay here's the [TS]

  thing and it animates from A to B but now you're done and now me and Dave [TS]

  would just sit there and tweak parameters like you know and it's funny [TS]

  to say this but the physics you know the gravity I'm just bringing us the [TS]

  bounciness the speed the acceleration to get the feel of it right because the [TS]

  house is in a huge it really is it's a huge part of a huge part of almost all [TS]

  what but people would consider modern apps is the physics of how the when [TS]

  things move like it's not enough to just say animate from A to B you've really [TS]

  got to specify those things [TS]

  and making that more of a central part of the built-in tools I think would be a [TS]

  huge step forward i mean we've we've had around it with with our own thing maybe [TS]

  50 we can set it but we're still going through to do that we're still going [TS]

  through a combined compiled old run reinstall under device cycle yeah I said [TS]

  it before but one of the coolest things that I've seen was from when when Mike [TS]

  Matas was developing the push pop press for gore and I saw pre-release version [TS]

  of it and his statuses version on his phone had special internal wasn't ever [TS]

  going to ship to the public but a setting screen where he had sliders to [TS]

  adjust certain you know pretty much did give you the God level control over the [TS]

  physics of the books universe you could set how heavy images are so that when [TS]

  you click the close them you know do they feel like they're light do they [TS]

  feel like they're heavy [TS]

  and so that it it seemed like a cool way to do that and then he could come to the [TS]

  jealousy here is the for the next beta here's the that physics settings that I [TS]

  you know let's try this and we ship it to that and it really didn't have to go [TS]

  through a building run and install in Xcode and reinstalling iTunes App every [TS]

  time you wanted to twiddle it's nice when he really needs and maybe did have [TS]

  fun where I like these certain [TS]

  developer yeah that would be cool let me take a third brake and thank our next [TS]

  one sir and it's our good friends at ly and the has [TS]

  over 2000 high-quality engaging video courses taught by industry experts with [TS]

  new courses being added daily trying others more than 2,000 people wide [TS]

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  from purely design to pure development and all sorts of stuff in between other [TS]

  things like photography some of the things that might interest people are [TS]

  listening to the talk show they have iOS developer courses [TS]

  UNIX for Mac OS 10 users so if you've ever wanted to learn your way around the [TS]

  terminal that sort of thing [TS]

  Objective C fits the show perfectly I was 7 STK new features so if you're [TS]

  already in iOS developer but you wanted to see what's new in I was 7 of course [TS]

  on that web development courses they have parole PHP MySQL JavaScript [TS]

  of course Creative Cloud so Photoshop InDesign everything like that so many [TS]

  videos it's unbelievable [TS]

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  plan where you just have unlimited access to their videos and so you don't [TS]

  have to if you're thinking like I think I'm gonna get this [TS]

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  worry hey is this video going to be what I want you can just start watching it [TS]

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  easy gota ly and the a dot com slash the talk-show / the talk [TS]

  show you get a seven day free trial [TS]

  watch these videos have nothing to lose its fantastic show my thanks to [TS] absolutely fantastic high-quality videos [TS]

  seven day free trial I thanks to anything else wanna talk about [TS]

  programming so you don't know about me some programming ok I'm an espresso user [TS]

  oh really [TS]

  yes chance ask me what I see in these what is it that you see in this so damn [TS]

  easy and that's really it yeah I died literally have no idea how much it costs [TS]

  and I don't care if it's $40 but I have two cups of espresso every day and the [TS]

  same ones you know I have one of one flavor one of the other is just a few [TS]

  seconds and you have to think and it's really good [TS]

  and that's it no more complicated than that this is a staff was I was writing [TS]

  about yesterday that I'm curious that there's these these new pod based coffee [TS]

  making machines would you have the nests press so what's the other one the cake [TS]

  on her exam and I just didn't get it in other words per pound of coffee and a [TS]

  paying a premium a significant premium and I just in get I wasn't putting it [TS]

  down I just didn't see the appeal and I've heard from two very different [TS]

  groups of people on Twitter who who who are fans of these things and it seems [TS]

  like the bigger the bigger group is a people who value the truly value that [TS]

  conveniens [TS]

  however easy it is to make drip coffee at this is just wait here but the second [TS]

  group ID is your group the shoemaker making espresso right yeah yeah this [TS]

  preso drinkers and that's I think I think it's because making espresso [TS]

  traditionally was is a mess and requires significantly I see that maybe that's [TS]

  where I'm missing out I like espresso when I can get it like a restaurant but [TS]

  at home I just make drip coffee coffee hurts my stomach over this process and [TS]

  it used to be a head across and I would make would make for a shot at the time [TS]

  four times a day 16 shots today is how I got through and that's their bankruptcy [TS]

  crime the beans and just wired as hell of course he is [TS]

  but eventually I realize someone I'm drinking a ton of stress number 2 I'm [TS]

  spending a crease humana time just making espresso and cleaning up from [TS]

  stress and everything and I realized I could actually be spending that time [TS]

  programming and maybe not have every five minutes less espresso machine and [TS]

  make something so now and then you're down to two a day down to do it today [TS]

  that the first one is kind of a double a single after that but used in use two [TS]

  different flavors yeah so some of them are are designed to be long Poor's short [TS]

  long one first followed by the shore one that's good my former colleague and I [TS]

  were to join Jason Hoffman first time we had like an on-site we went across the [TS]

  street somewhere in Marin County and typical marion county town no chain [TS]

  restaurants really cool coffee shop across the street [TS]

  good stuff and we're ordering and I got my usual coffee and I remember Jason [TS]

  ordered a quadruple espresso and I thought wow and then say anything and [TS]

  then we SAT there and drank and we just stayed in a coffee shop and and just [TS]

  chill down coffees in before we left he went up to the counter and I thought [TS]

  this that is totally outside my [TS]

  my ability to consume coffee or caffeine yeah I used to always order triplets [TS]

  presses just retaining and we'd have much I was traveling in and I have [TS]

  multiple the day just to keep the same clothes the same level I was used to [TS]

  suppress it but it's it's never try to make them at home I also like I like the [TS]

  way that I can make about for myself and make about three cups of coffee and I [TS]

  like the way that I keep it in a thermos so it stays and I like the way that it [TS]

  lasts for a long time [TS]

  slowly sip it as a as a work the first half of my day [TS]

  yeah I would enjoy it but for too much sex I did not know that but yeah I guess [TS]

  I shouldn't be surprised if you find you have defined if you get over caffeinated [TS]

  you lose your ability to concentrate yeah certain point I'm just desperate [TS]

  not to be so over caffeinated build up my tolerance for a long time said to [TS]

  that point was almost impossible to reach their license to reach it [TS]

  occasionally and my answer then was usually food whatever just give me as [TS]

  much as I can possibly just helped me relax that's obviously a great answer I [TS]

  i've I found that when I used to work outside the house and I David job and I [TS]

  wouldn't necessarily count how much coffee I was drinking especially if it [TS]

  was I gonna work place where there was no coffee always being made available [TS]

  and I would just get up as often as soon as my cup is empty I would just get up [TS]

  and refill and then I would find like in the afternoon I did it really it felt [TS]

  like my brain was actually like vibrating like it was and it was a truly [TS]

  truly unpleasant but vaguely unpleasant and i'd i'd i'd like to look at the [TS]

  clock in realizing our gun buying at all I would have done is open twenty new [TS]

  tabs you know a random stuff and read the first three sentences of each I get [TS]

  really gave it gave me effectively attention deficit disorder and I so I [TS]

  find that making the same amount of coffee every morning when I get up and [TS]

  drink and that's all i drink every day has been a huge advantage because I know [TS]

  it's exactly its it makes me feel good I feel like I'm concentrating but it [TS]

  doesn't give me close to drinking too much [TS]

  yeah yeah it took me a while to learn that but then the same thing you get [TS]

  headaches if you don't drink coffee for sure see I used to I used to get severe [TS]

  headaches if I woke up and when I would say within about 90 minutes of waking up [TS]

  if I hadn't had some caffeine of some sort [TS]

  I would get a serious headache and it would go away about 15 20 minutes after [TS]

  I then consumed some caffeine but ever since I've started this sort of make 13 [TS]

  Cup thermos of coffee a day I I can go if I wake up the next day and I you know [TS]

  like a bum flying or something like that I don't drink coffee cuz I'd rather [TS]

  sleep on the plane or try to sleep on the plane and stay away and I don't have [TS]

  to get up to 2 p.m. on the plane so and I don't get a headache [TS]

  yeah we you're lucky I saw the headaches on the other hand if I have a superpower [TS]

  moments are preparing civilian his sleep in any car airplane train doesn't matter [TS]

  even after coffee doesn't matter it's nice it is nice it really stunk when I [TS]

  had sort of I really need coffee every morning like Ryan was the worst to me [TS]

  because we keep me from sleeping on the plane be probably make me have to pee [TS]

  but see is that the coffee you get in an airport is almost always horrendous yeah [TS]

  I'm even if you get it if you get it at the before you get on the plane [TS]

  usually pretty bad like I know it like SFO there's depending on the terminal [TS]

  philadelphia has won two Petes but it's not really a Peets it's like they have [TS]

  the Petes logo and they serve Peet's Coffee but it's it's like some kind of [TS]

  weird franchised hope then it doesn't taste like Pete its airports to taste [TS]

  terrible and then you really face questions you know why you have this [TS]

  addiction [TS]

  they say the Renaissance was due to caffeine in beings yeah I believe that [TS]

  yeah that coffee houses for like the first [TS]

  first for like form of modern civilization [TS]

  yeah and and they were wicked immoral places yeah yeah that was true that idea [TS]

  for coffee mostly innocent thing you can do us I also I started my caffeine [TS]

  addiction purely drinking Coke I tried coffee and I think it was because so [TS]

  much coffee is just bad and the never it never caught on and so like going [TS]

  through college I never drink coffee I just drank just trying and I know [TS]

  six-pack of coke a day and I drink enough coke like in my college years [TS]

  that I had the headache problem when I wake up in the morning just just from [TS]

  drinking coca-cola [TS]

  I seen as regular coke with the sugar yeah yeah yeah that on top of your six [TS]

  pack of beer tonight I had was real skinny teenager and so even going in [TS]

  until I got my twenties and that slow down I think I was lucky enough but even [TS]

  so it was aight I can acquit by in it cold turkey coke who actually needs [TS]

  encouragement I was really I mean I was still I don't know 24 23 24 something [TS]

  like that and I wasn't wasn't overweight anyway she was I just tried to stop [TS]

  buying it and it was a time when I had started drinking coffee so I just [TS]

  stopped buying coke and I dropped five pounds in a week [TS]

  there can we had an argument in this sounds stupid in hindsight but after [TS]

  your credit [TS]

  where where she said genomic calories a day you're consuming just coca-cola and [TS]

  I [TS]

  my thought was that it doesn't matter how many calories it's just a liquid so [TS]

  just get out and she's like a note like no dummy it doesn't work like that and I [TS]

  really thought that like if you're drinking it cannot possibly making you [TS]

  fat and so I quit I got a bed with her I just stopped buying it stopped drinking [TS]

  and weighed myself every day and a week I dropped five pounds he didn't perform [TS]

  that thought experiment what if I dissolve the sugar and I doubt it is I'm [TS]

  a story where I'm laying out how stupid I can be at a similar similar thing I I [TS]

  was overweight was my early thirties and I switch from regular Coke to diet coke [TS]

  changes made and over the course of summer lost 20 pounds [TS]

  well and I hadn't seen things like there was no YouTube it the time so late you [TS]

  can go there now and you can easily Google like fine like how much sugar is [TS]

  in a can of coke and they'll put like 12 ounces of water out and then they pour [TS]

  the sugar to show you how much it's ridiculous [TS]

  yeah it's you know it's like you're eating if you're drinking a six-pack of [TS]

  coke effectively eating like a bag of sugar yeah you're getting cake right so [TS]

  I you know in hindsight it was a foolish but to take but I did it was a bad habit [TS]

  I don't know I don't put anything my coffee so yeah I don't think it has a [TS]

  figure like the most calories it could have his whatever it would be the [TS]

  equivalent yeah they're so yeah I've often wondered about popcorn right is [TS]

  she making popcorn only pouring out like a little bit of corn corn a handful [TS]

  right big butt [TS]

  like crazy but still I think the problem with that is that corn is such as sugar [TS]

  vegetable oils you know a lot of sugar and industrial product these days [TS]

  yeah so I don't know I might be it's not a lot you're right though that it you [TS]

  know I keep you just ate the raw colonels something much yeah I think [TS]

  about a half cup and it's good for big bowl for Jonas so so I figure I only get [TS]

  a half I don't know like once I don't know we have 16 yeah yeah we have this [TS]

  thing called a Whirley Pop and we bought is the best purchases over made me want [TS]

  to stay in like 1999 Crate and Barrel and it's just a big tits made out of [TS]

  aluminum or something big aluminum pot and has a handle with like a little [TS]

  prank on it then turns like a little propeller at the bottom of the pan so [TS]

  you put on the stove but a little oil in their heated up [TS]

  medium-high wait until the oil is smoking and high heat sapphire sapphire [TS]

  oil way to the oil then pour half cup of popcorn in there and you just you know [TS]

  this thing on the handle and it spends this propeller at the bottom of the [TS]

  things that the Colonels keep moving in the oil and it takes about a minute and [TS]

  fresh hot popcorn how do you make it and maybe I'll check that out and got a hot [TS]

  air popper so I'm popping in any oil and if I were not to butter and salt the [TS]

  popcorn bland but will also be healthier [TS]

  works nicely yeah but I'm open to alternatives [TS]

  mind I mean innovation those are the same melted butter but then I put too [TS]

  much to bask in my brother so really spicy popcorn and it's good I like that [TS]

  yeah you send them that I've lost I have had hot air popcorn since the eighties [TS]

  force invented it and it was a member that it was like I was like a revolution [TS]

  is it was yeah I guess it's because I think in the eighties it was like in the [TS]

  whole like Jane Fonda workout it was like when people first started getting [TS]

  health-conscious pop cultural thing and if you make hot air popcorn and you [TS]

  don't do anything to it it was you know pretty good you know there's nothing you [TS]

  complain about low-calorie [TS]

  bad for ya course also no no flavor [TS]

  whatever you know what I don't like I tell you what I don't like I know [TS]

  probably most people don't like the microwave popcorn now can do it I did [TS]

  the penalty for doing it wrong when you burn it is that terrible terrible [TS]

  terrible smell yeah exactly way for a while and it's having strange that once [TS]

  it's just not worth the risk [TS]

  it's like hey we're gonna put a movie and we're gonna watch a movie I'll go [TS]

  make popcorn and it's at this point it's nothing but good times ahead [TS]

  popcorn and I'm suddenly hungry for and movie I've never seen coming up what [TS]

  could be a better way to spend an evening with the family and then burn [TS]

  the popcorn in the microwave and then not hungry for it you can throw it out [TS]

  and make another one but it's like it's already a bad smell it turns you off [TS]

  yeah and now I'm just kinda wanna watch the movie by now he spent way too much [TS]

  time in the kitchen [TS]

  my favorite thing about my hot air popcorn popper though i think is at the [TS]

  very end when almost all of its popped up review kernels and it just starts [TS]

  throwing them at me it's a little like exercise [TS]

  mind by the poetry I also I also have a bad association with microwave popcorn [TS]

  which is that I spent a year at Drexel living in a dorm was just called a [TS]

  typical drug solutions com the tower I guess nobody gave me any money to put [TS]

  any money [TS]

  16 story dormitory and I was pretty high up I forget what for I was on that it [TS]

  was towards the top [TS]

  and it had notoriously fickle smoke detectors and so we had fire alarms [TS]

  constantly I mean it was just over and over and over again and of course one so [TS]

  far along you gotta take the steps and it was just the biggest pain in the ass [TS]

  and inevitably it was always somebody burn microwave popcorn and so it was [TS]

  like why why can't we make a rule [TS]

  can't we just banned microwave popcorn let's just ban it it's keep sending off [TS]

  in you know never never went anywhere I never actually filed a complaint that [TS]

  they should ban it I just would complain yeah sure I'll let me like every good [TS]

  college student [TS]

  let me think our final sponsor it's it's our good friends at pack place online [TS]

  backup $5 a month [TS]

  native unlimited unbridled uncomplicated you sign up for $5 a month it backs up [TS]

  your whole Mac everything your external drives to to the cloud you think what [TS]

  that must take a long time at first [TS]

  well it could it could take a couple days might take a week depending on your [TS]

  but then once you've got that initial backup completed all incremental happens [TS]

  in the background you have to do anything [TS]

  their native written by AB X Apple engineers school app doesn't scripture [TS]

  system in any way and without doing anything [TS]

  your entire Mac is backed up to the cloud [TS]

  there's no add-ons are no gimmicks is no additional charges you just pay $5 per [TS]

  month per computer for unlimited on throttled back up I always say when i [TS]

  when i do these read I always say you know the best part about this is that [TS]

  it's off site you know that having a backup next year computer on it like a [TS]

  super duper clone driver [TS]

  and try to find what's that thing on Mac OS 10 called time capsule time capsule [TS]

  time she write a time machine driver time capsule that's great too and it's [TS]

  convenient and faster but anyway here's a perfect example I was just last night [TS]

  one day ago weird Jonas is little league starting up we had get to get to know [TS]

  the team meeting with the other dads and there is another day another kid who we [TS]

  played with two years ago so I already knew his dad and we were like hey what's [TS]

  up you know what ends up dead just six months ago they had a fire in their [TS]

  house they've been living in apartments and wasn't too bad nobody got hurt it [TS]

  was something happen with their dryer at like seven and they were right you just [TS]

  run in the dryer down in the basement [TS]

  here's the thing his home office was in the same basement his computer was right [TS]

  there as backup was on an external hard drive right next to his computer that's [TS]

  the exact type of situation back please [TS]

  can save literally save Saviour Saviour days because having a driveway next your [TS]

  computer something like that happens you need an offsite backup he ended up [TS]

  getting lucky he actually got to save his data but he had to go through one of [TS]

  those expensive drive saver things it was like the actual closure was [TS]

  destroyed but expensive data [TS]

  saver things got kinda stuff off this drive but you say even if even in a case [TS]

  where the good news is he saved his data could save a lot of money [TS]

  $5 a month using back twice and left a lot of anxiety she takes a deep sleep [TS]

  when you use back-breaking you have an offsite backup trust me where to go to [TS]

  find out more [TS]

  WWW dot Backblaze dot com slash daring fireball gotten a lot better at that [TS]

  since their regular sponsor used to first couple times I would always say [TS]

  black base and ends up the day they have that good for them [TS]

  yeah black blaze dot com redirects to back plz dot com so you can go either [TS]

  way [TS]

  here's one more thing I want to talk about little things seem like the type [TS]

  of thing that you would have an opinion on I do too and that is that Google has [TS]

  recently stopped underlining links in their search results and the verge had a [TS]

  story on this where they sorta like they said like they gave Google like a [TS]

  welcome to 1998 as though underlying links [TS]

  has been outdated for ten years or something like that I i said i I plan to [TS]

  underline links on during fireball until the end of time what do you what it was [TS]

  your opinion [TS]

  well i dont underlined links on my blog and probably the first thing I do in [TS]

  setting up a new CSS file for any news scientists turn off link underlining so [TS]

  welcome the 1998 true on the other hand in this particular case underlined links [TS]

  on the Google search results is just the way Google search works and when they [TS]

  turned it off I feel like my brain couldn't understand what I was looking [TS]

  at the UI of their search result is something so many people are familiar [TS]

  with and it's almost like we understand in some deeper part of our brain by now [TS]

  just because it's so familiar and so use them to make a change like that burns [TS]

  bunch of brain cells even though it seems like such a small thing so you I [TS]

  feel like we have the opposite opinion where I feel like I didn't even notice [TS]

  that Google turn them off because I feel like everything in Google search results [TS]

  as a link [TS]

  whereas what I'm thinking isn't with enduring fireball that when an [TS]

  individual where this story is is a link I wanted to be underlined and in other [TS]

  ones too I just feel like if a word article is linked to me that's what [TS]

  underlining means underlining means this is a link but I didn't even notice it in [TS]

  Google because I just assume that everything is surprisingly things aren't [TS]

  linked like the actual URL right result pages which bothered me for years how [TS]

  can you show me you are out there is no link yeah I did still is weird to me [TS]

  yeah and now that I don't know the answer [TS]

  yeah and now they're not underlining them it seems even weirder right because [TS]

  the blue things the blue and purple ones are links but the green lines aren't [TS]

  even though they are the URL [TS]

  so I felt like at least when they were underlining on there was some [TS]

  consistency there were only the underlying things are links but I try to [TS]

  keep an open mind about this so my mom I think my thinking is that in traditional [TS]

  typography and guy English and I were talking about this couple weeks you [TS]

  should never underlying any like the whole thing that some of his corrupt [TS]

  with four you like a book title should be underlined in a report or something [TS]

  like that was all because it was free word processing in computers it was you [TS]

  know is based on this what you could do on a typewriter [TS]

  you couldn't italicized typewriter underlining was the best we could do and [TS]

  so like when you were typing the manuscript for a book if you wanted a [TS]

  word italicized underline it it was you know that's what the when the manuscript [TS]

  go from the editing to the typesetter so when they saw something underlined they [TS]

  wouldn't underline it in the actual novel they would italicized it and that [TS]

  if you can use proper italics and bold even small caps and and all sorts of [TS]

  nice typographic things like that there's never any reason to underline [TS]

  anything and so I found one of the genius things of the original web was [TS]

  that they took this needless typographic thing the underlining and gave it a new [TS]

  meaning which meant said of I giving it emphasis or indicating a title or [TS]

  something like that it meant this is a link [TS]

  yeah and and that is that there was a smart move just that aesthetically [TS]

  though lot of sites don't look so great with others underlines your six [TS]

  different though you're not using color for your links yeah you can use one or [TS]

  the other right and since you're not using color you have to happen until I [TS]

  sure yeah I thought about that so i guess im gonna keep an open mind maybe [TS]

  maybe you know maybe I should reevaluate that but then I thought well then how [TS]

  would I indicated because i dont have color palette or with and if I picked [TS]

  like us at all you know I think something subtle that would fit with the [TS]

  daring fireball color scheme would be huge [TS]

  usability nightmare because it would it would be too easy to miss that it that [TS]

  it's a link but do you worry do you worry about like cause I think about [TS]

  that I try to think about like color blindness stuff like that you worry like [TS]

  on an essential that your links don't stand out to people who are colorblind [TS]

  I don't worry because no one's ever complained maybe that's a cop-out but I [TS]

  also think I hope that the accessibility stuff his progressive the point where it [TS]

  deals with those kinds of things for me because you know at that level to suffer [TS]

  knows what the Lincoln what it can do the appropriate things I don't think [TS]

  there is there something know if you're color blind that you can set your [TS]

  browser to somehow always highlight color where of anything like that not [TS]

  enough you know I haven't looked at it enough I think that for the like the [TS]

  truly vision-impaired you know for people who are blind or nearly blind who [TS]

  use special software for that than it does you know highlight links but [TS]

  I think for people whose only you know issue with their vision is color [TS]

  blindness that you know depending on what colors you pick and I know that you [TS]

  know there's there's some cool apps that you can use that test that Larry lage [TS]

  simulate this using common forms of colorblindness but you think you so you [TS]

  think underlining you can you think it's a fail kada do not undermine league's [TS]

  yeah well we be doing if we do not underlining links for many many years [TS]

  and and the web seems to have gone by [TS]

  okay it does make and so for example and it's in a way [TS]

  okay it does make and so for example and it's in a way [TS]

  that like you said like the way that Google search results were laid out of [TS]

  have sort of like somehow he insinuated themselves just one level up from our [TS]

  lizard brains the early years and I think that explains why all other search [TS]

  engines effectively copy that style I don't even think it's like a [TS]

  shamelessness I think it's because we you know like being for example is large [TS]

  you know the search results are largely formatted it's not exactly a pixel for [TS]

  pixel clone but pretty much the same fonts and sizes as Google [TS]

  I almost think it's because if they didn't it would just be automatically [TS]

  rejected yeah that's right when people talk about something being intuitive but [TS]

  they often really mean is how it works just like this other thing I know about [TS]

  already that's that's the case being as intuitive as long as it looks and works [TS]

  like Google right like you know I don't even have a good analogy but remember [TS]

  when when pepsi came out with crystal pepsi it was cola and it tasted like [TS]

  Pepsi but it was clear like sprite and it lasted I think about a week and I [TS]

  think it was because people you know if it tastes like Coke or Pepsi Cola it has [TS]

  to be brown yeah that's right and I feel like the same way I feel like if you [TS]

  made a lemon lime soda some like ice-breaker seven-up but you colored it [TS]

  like pepsi it would be it would be revolting [TS]

  you wouldn't you know I feel like you were just hooked up to expect search [TS]

  results to look like that have to admit though [TS]

  now they just quick toggle between it being result in Google result the lack [TS]

  of underlines in the Google result does look pretty clean [TS]

  gastric just struck me as very rare though an end hasn't stopped striking me [TS]

  away but you definitely notice Yeah Yeah right away I cursed actually it is the [TS]

  sort of thing and and for all the stuff you know the other various things that [TS]

  Google does I mention it every couple weeks and it shows that there's an [TS]

  Android am a fan of and there's all sorts of stuff about Google that you [TS]

  know pundit wise I'm probably you know if you want to say program title title I [TS]

  still have to say Google search is is one of the two me one of the 8 wonders [TS]

  of the modern world and and and we we all even if you think about your you [TS]

  can't help it take it for granted [TS]

  right and I still think Google knows that internally because they've you know [TS]

  and then toured with their advertising at a place in some ways and I know that [TS]

  recently the you know that they've changed david Turner toggle the way that [TS]

  they've made the the paid the sponsored results little bit less easily discerned [TS]

  from the regular results but on the whole given how important it is to the [TS]

  company you know and how much of the revenue comes from search ads and [TS]

  everything they've they've stayed incredibly true to the original idea of [TS]

  Google search all the way back to you know I don't know 1996 or whatever it [TS]

  was when it was in beta 99 I don't even know but it's still very reckoning [TS]

  recognizably the same thing that I think the thing I don't like his [TS]

  integration with Google Plus social graph and trying to figure out what I [TS]

  want to see based on what my friends of search for ya know how that stuff works [TS]

  like no I want these I want much your regular algorithm would give me you know [TS]

  yeah exactly I want you to know nothing about me [TS]

  yeah basically you know and I if I wanted to search for something local you [TS]

  know like a yelp type thing where I want to find you know a good bagel place near [TS]

  where I am right now I would use something specific that I wouldn't I [TS]

  don't want Google search to solve that problem for me I mean Google can give me [TS]

  something to do that but you know make it like a separate like Google Local or [TS]

  something like that I want search to just be generic everybody in [TS]

  the world who types in the same thing as me to get the same results [TS]

  yeah this this is kind of the front page of the web that we are having Connor [TS]

  yeah I would say so [TS]

  exactly lasting wanna talk about it I want to talk about your new podcast and [TS]

  that's called the record you're doing it with our mutual good friend Chris [TS]

  Parrish so tell me about the record so for a few years I had this in mind is a [TS]

  project where I wanted to capture the history of our developer community Mac [TS]

  and iOS developers and some part of the time I thought about doing it as a book [TS]

  but then two years ago I realize you know this probably better as a podcast [TS]

  be transcribed but the fight later but the easiest way is actually just [TS]

  recording interviews n publish them so I thought about that for a while and then [TS]

  became a little more urgent to me when I saw [TS]

  at the Experience Music Project museum here in town [TS]

  Nirvana exhibit and I was lucky enough to go to go to college in Olympia ladies [TS]

  and saw Nirvana player darman's and everything so went to this exhibit and [TS]

  you know they had things that you know roommates and friends of mine were [TS]

  involved with and there was a lot of like my own personal history right there [TS]

  but an hour to realize there is a whole lot of stuff that happened in there just [TS]

  was never recorded a whole lot of history and stories just gone [TS]

  didn't realize it special and it's a lot of stay past year it's such a great [TS]

  great show but its stories that I know some of them I've heard a lot of them [TS]

  are things that you here at like six o'clock having beers on a Wednesday [TS]

  during WWDC you know they're not really you said they're not recorded anywhere [TS]

  and you say like hey here since I haven't seen this guy ten years what are [TS]

  you up two and then it's remember that time I remember this and then you get [TS]

  the story but then it's you know like you said it's not recorded anywhere [TS]

  would sort of you know place right in to the title of the show the record yep [TS]

  it's a lot of fun to do and and Chris I have great plans for the future [TS]

  all kinds of all kinds of one season I hope we do is early in da heroes so the [TS]

  idea would be to record the people who were Indies before me right people like [TS]

  rich Siegel Dave Winer our culture Peter Lewis there's there's a whole bunch of [TS]

  people and I would just love that because there's a lot of history there [TS]

  that I don't even know [TS]

  these folks would have imagined I think I really do announcing his cos cos I'm [TS]

  your friend I really do think it's such a great show but I really do think that [TS]

  for people who listen to the talk show who are looking for more shows to listen [TS]

  to man this has got to be right up their alley and I think and I think it could [TS]

  easily also separated into per two reasons one people have never heard of [TS]

  these things they're great stories and there's some great products and [TS]

  technologies and stuff and maybe they'll hear about for the first time and in the [TS]

  second group probably in a let's face it may be slightly older group or people or [TS]

  and or people who have at least been using a Mac we're doing nerdy stuff on a [TS]

  Mac for a longer period of time we're gonna hear about these things again and [TS]

  be like oh my god I totally forgot about that and you guys if you just go the the [TS]

  website is the record . Co which is I've told you is incredibly awesome domain [TS]

  name into the record outgoing or see their six episodes of you guys in [TS]

  addition to doing great shows you guys kill it and just absolutely positively [TS]

  put me to shame on the show notes I love doing the show nutso christa's the [TS]

  editing out of the shoulder and I just a bit today with headphones on and every [TS]

  time there's any proper noun of any kind I I type it up until I have you know [TS]

  anywhere from 75 250 or so to go find links for everything but it's phenomenal [TS]

  and if you just go through and especially if you were around in like [TS]

  the late eighties early nineties IndyMac community or just the Mac nerd community [TS]

  at all [TS]

  you're going to see keywords in your list of these things that I totally [TS]

  forgot about that one that stuck out to me was from an episode a couple of shows [TS]

  ago and this is just in their show not but Metro works Ron I forgot I had [TS]

  totally forgotten about Metro works on a guy with a great time that it was a [TS]

  fantastic time yeah cause I think that that was the whole time I mean I'd say [TS]

  the Metro works time was probably mid nineties and so it coincided night I [TS]

  think by definitely not coincidentally with the decline of Apple right that was [TS]

  the time when Apple was in trouble [TS]

  tough period period where the indie developer community has never was never [TS]

  before has never since been so independent of Apple like to call them [TS]

  in Indy community is understating it really was like there were two worlds [TS]

  there was the Apple world and the IndyMac world and the world was way [TS]

  ahead [TS]

  you know we had our own you know we had Metro works we had our own development [TS]

  environment which is better than what Apple is shipping [TS]

  you know and you mentioned Peter Lewis like Peter Lewis almost single-handedly [TS]

  brought the Internet to the Mac however I mean and with all sorts of you know [TS]

  between an Archaean Mac TCP watcher of the stuff and finger finger finger used [TS]

  to be an important tool and I know that the people who don't remember it [TS]

  probably have heard gonna guess very wrong with wet finger did but you know [TS]

  if you wanted to finger from Pak Peter had recovered yet but just redic it's [TS]

  ridiculous to think back to Mac TCP was the third party towards owed if you [TS]

  wanted to get your Mac on the internet you needed a third party tool and then [TS]

  he had to get a Mac slipper right PPP ya another thing right right right here on [TS]

  the web [TS]

  wow all that stuff came from outside up no fantastic show I really really I'm [TS]

  again I'm not just saying this because my friend that I really think that talk [TS]

  show listeners are going to if you haven't already subscribed you gonna [TS]

  love this show and just by looking at the show notes it should convince you [TS]

  and the website is the record . Co [TS]

  service teamwork CTO of temps fantastic obviously should know about the only [TS]

  group what's called out then there's the next Apple which is interesting I wasn't [TS]

  there for that story so yeah I bet those are great but that's great I didn't know [TS]

  he was CTO yeah he's a good guy definitely the best I see on your picks [TS]

  up from the show notes there will Shipley are ya you know it's a good show [TS]

  it anyway they go find out more at the record I'd co-brand thanks for being in [TS]

  show now thanks to a partisan [TS]