The Talk Show

70: Ken Turns Effect


  sold lots of stuff going on this week I guess the big one [TS]

  you know I think if we look back if we did like a week by week highlight you [TS]

  know years from now we'll look back on the big news this week is is no delas [TS]

  being named the CEO of Microsoft [TS]

  you have and it's a little weird cuz it leaked a little bit early and I think in [TS]

  hindsight it's sort of like my initial take is why did it take so long to name [TS]

  the guy goes it seems pretty obvious right I totally agree with that you know [TS]

  there have been so many different front-runners have there been at first [TS]

  it was Stephen you operate right now then it became the Ford CEO Alan Mulally [TS]

  Mulally law and and then you know there were some other names bandied about the [TS]

  Skype guy tony yeah yeah but there were more I guess there are more dark horses [TS]

  but not soon adele is one that was always mention certainly cause he is one [TS]

  of the senior executives there but it is you know it seems like it seems like [TS]

  everyone is saying that this is the absolute right call but why wasn't it [TS]

  recalls six months ago [TS]

  yeah it and the only one that I could see that maybe they wanted to really [TS]

  push on was Mulally Ford and he used to be at boeing which means he has [TS]

  seattle-area roots and you know and and [TS]

  while I first year I thought well for that's not really a technical company [TS]

  but you do you read up on my wall he does have an engineering background is [TS]

  he's not like a business school [TS]

  mind he's you know and engineering guy who worked up to become an executive so [TS]

  it it it's not outlandish and the story that was told on that was that a and [TS]

  he's a little bit older he's he's already had a successful career he is [TS]

  very successful Boeing turned you know ford around through a very difficult [TS]

  time for the car industry he would just go to Microsoft for a couple of years [TS]

  and and sort of take probably in it was it was even rumored under his wing and [TS]

  sort of teaching the ropes of being a CEO yeah that's that sounds like a [TS]

  pretty good theory about that because that is the one main criticism against [TS]

  the people have them of Nadal is that he's never been a CEO at all and so [TS]

  taking over one of the largest companies in the world is certainly going to be a [TS]

  challenge it probably would have been beneficial to have a coach [TS]

  quote unquote coach to do to help them along that but he's bill gates now to do [TS]

  that right to do so right and I but I am I thought on the timing this deal when [TS]

  Mulally backed out and just said you know pretty much point-blank you know [TS]

  what I'm staying afford you know that's it then I don't understand why it took [TS]

  months after that for for this to be named yeah it seems like who knows I [TS]

  mean reading into all the various stories that have come out in in these [TS]

  past few months it definitely does sound like there was quite a bit of tension on [TS]

  the border between in particular sort of between some of the candidates they were [TS]

  talking to and the power dynamics of wood gates remain chairman and would [TS]

  Ballmer remain on the board because that would be a very a weird situation I [TS]

  would imagine for someone an outsider especially to come into that company [TS]

  with the two previous CEOs on their board of directors sort of you know well [TS]

  we didn't do it this way in the past type thing coming up again and again and [TS]

  again you can imagine so you know it seems like there is definitely a board [TS]

  struggle a little bit and they finally it sorted that out but I still don't [TS]

  know why they took six months I don't feel like there was a story [TS]

  in the journal a day or two after the announcement that was reported to be the [TS]

  hey here's what happened behind the scenes and there was a little bit of [TS]

  color but not really anything that explained why it took as long as I get [TS]

  the real story behind it did not come out [TS]

  yeah yeah I think I read that as well and and there's there's other sort of [TS]

  things that are yet to be seen on this suit the one guy from you know the [TS]

  activist shareholder is going to be taking a board seat soon from ValueClick [TS]

  I think that's what it was and so you know there was a lot of talk of when [TS]

  that was going to happen like sort of bomber had to concede that that he was [TS]

  going to allow this this activist shareholder to take the board seat and [TS]

  what does that mean for the dynamics of the board now that that Gates is no [TS]

  longer chairman and I don't like no one's really talking about that right [TS]

  now but I don't know what that will mean because he would assume that the [TS]

  activist shareholder wanted to take the board seat in order to shake things up [TS]

  things have already been shaken up now so what what is his role there and [TS]

  widest is sort of company still want that position I would imagine it's to [TS]

  see how things go for the first few months to see if Microsoft has actually [TS]

  willing now with new leadership to sort of changed direction in any way and I [TS]

  don't know what are your thoughts on that you think that they actually will [TS]

  sort of change from bombers lest you know reorg stance I don't know and it's [TS]

  I think everybody you know I don't think you have to be juiced into microsoftr be [TS]

  a keen observer just just common sense tells you that I think it was going good [TS]

  he was on the show [TS]

  couple months ago weeks ago we talked about just it's just weird that they did [TS]

  the reorg then said bombers leaving you know it just really seems like hey we [TS]

  want a new CEO and we want to reorg it seems like the way you do that is you [TS]

  put the new CEO and in let the new CEO Ron and structure and improve the reorg [TS]

  an end I guess naming an insider a guy you know who's been there [TS]

  r it adds a little bit of continuity and and you know maybe that makes a little [TS]

  bit more sense but then that again raises to me the question of why they [TS]

  didn't just named him earlier yeah I think that by sort of doing that reorg [TS]

  that that's certainly seems to speak to the notion that perhaps bomber wasn't at [TS]

  all ready to go he sort of made it seem like it was his his own call and you [TS]

  know ultimately it may have been but he was certainly you know at least pushed [TS]

  in that direction they would imagine because it does seem insane that that [TS]

  that he would orchestrate this entire change the company even if he thought [TS]

  someone an insider was going to take over underneath him it's still like you [TS]

  know it's it's it's someone else sort of setting setting the table for four your [TS]

  dinner [TS]

  well it's so weird a lot of thing and then and then what about the element of [TS]

  you remember all this Stephen Elop stuff that lately about how how different you [TS]

  know he's gonna cut everything up into little pieces and sell off certain [TS]

  businesses and and we think that was from him or from one of his rivals camps [TS]

  because it obviously it ultimately Nov torpedoed his his candidacy but it [TS]

  certainly ended up not helping a cause he's not the CEO right now [TS]

  yeah that's a good question either either it must be one or the other in [TS]

  must either be that he thought it helped and that he must have also thought that [TS]

  he knew you know like in private conversation that he had some support on [TS]

  the board and that leading it would get outsiders you know like investors you [TS]

  know I mean like the people were just talking right value at people who would [TS]

  definitely I think that that's their sort of stated goal to get Microsoft to [TS]

  cut itself up into little pieces to to sort of throw pressure behind that and [TS]

  and make it you know whatever you put pressure on the ones who are maybe [TS]

  pushing against the OPP to go his way or you know and it is you know and it's it [TS]

  sounds you know you start you say this and it sounds a little silly and you [TS]

  start thinking maybe you know everything's not like a movie but you [TS]

  know what they're in real life there are part of politics and people do play [TS]

  dirty tricks the other idea would be that it was somebody else who ceded it [TS]

  to make him look bad like he can't keep his mouth shut and leaked to the press [TS]

  sort of guy yeah that's sort of you know again who knows what's actually going on [TS]

  but that sounds really plausible because of the you saw what the reaction was to [TS]

  it when that happens it's like oh my god this is insane you know like there were [TS]

  two camps as there always are you know the people who who think that Microsoft [TS]

  should be split up her like hell yeah this is exactly what they need to do it [TS]

  and there's the people are just looking at the company overall and just having [TS]

  gone through this reorganization like oh my god this is this going to throw [TS]

  things into further disarray this is pretty much the end of Microsoft if they [TS]

  let this happen if I had to guess though I think that it was Elop and his people [TS]

  who leaked it because if it were and he could've [TS]

  there are ways for him to you know he somehow tried got thrown under the bus [TS]

  by somebody else there's ways that he could spend it the other way you know [TS]

  and if it wasn't his actual plan to put the company up like that you know he [TS]

  could have come out and just said so yeah said this you know that didn't come [TS]

  from me that's not my plan I don't know yet what if it's it would if it was a [TS]

  situation where he started knew that he at that point somehow he knew that he [TS]

  wasn't the front-runner and he thought let's just try something wild and you [TS]

  know sort of a John McCain kidding Sarah Palin and and it backfires what what's [TS]

  the old saying never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stop Italy [TS]

  and I always thought that that made a lot of sense even with the whole thing [TS]

  where he was in Nokia and when he first went there from Microsoft and there are [TS]

  a lot of people who said wait they've hired a guy from Microsoft and then he [TS]

  comes in and the first thing he says is we should did all of our existing plans [TS]

  and go with Windows Phone and a lot of people said you know is he like like a [TS]

  double agent is he the puppet government right now I mean what if he's coming [TS]

  here in purposely trying to run the company into the ground so that [TS]

  Microsoft can buy them and then he ran the company into the ground lost a lot [TS]

  of shareholder value and and made tens of millions of dollars from self right [TS]

  with a crazy contract that was structured in a way that it if the [TS]

  company lost a lot of value and was sold for the mobile handset division was told [TS]

  that he would profit it had played out you know conspiracy theorists would have [TS]

  a field day with that one because it's perfectly along those lines and and so I [TS]

  don't know I mean it actually makes sense both ways that he's actually not [TS]

  very good at his job or is devilishly good but devious you know both [TS]

  explanations make sense I don't think either explanation makes him a good pic [TS]

  to be Microsoft CEO though I agree and and there's there's another survey [TS]

  interesting wrinkle to this when I was sort of reading through a series that I [TS]

  realize which is that so now I'm not being CEO he is going to be when the [TS]

  when the deal I think the deal's closing sometime this quarter with Nokia he will [TS]

  be the one put in charge of the devices business basically and that was with the [TS]

  previous reorg if you remember there was this there was a sort of Brit big press [TS]

  cycle around Julie Larson green right who was previously an executive in that [TS]

  one of the senior executives at the company and she was being elevated to [TS]

  senior executive and put in charge of the devices thing right before they [TS]

  announced the the Nokia deal and I remember I think there was [TS]

  i dont member who ran the profile may have been the Virgin may have been [TS]

  someone else but they had a big profile on her and how like she's ascending to [TS]

  the top of the company in and maybe you know like maybe she will one day be CEO [TS]

  and now all of a sudden with the with the nuclear deal you office is now her [TS]

  boss she got demoted essentially and you know and and then thinking there was [TS]

  that well maybe it's only a temporary thing because maybe win you know when [TS]

  you up its CEO she will get her job back but it obviously didn't play out that [TS]

  way [TS]

  yeah and is she still and she's not in charge of Windows now look what what it [TS]

  is I do know that she was I know she was for a while she worked with Sinofsky [TS]

  yeah right when she took over when when he was out and sort of took over that [TS]

  thing but yeah I believe with the reorg she was the one being put in charge of [TS]

  the division that is now in turn will be in charge of once once there I think one [TS]

  thing it brings to my mind and it really shows I think I really do think that [TS]

  just how how badly a job bomber didn't certain ways and I dunno I know that he [TS]

  you know under his leadership the company's revenues and profits have gone [TS]

  up yet even over the last few years and that's you know it so he's by no measure [TS]

  a complete failure and and I think you know four years it's not just after the [TS]

  fact but all along he's publicly stated that that's how we measure the success [TS]

  of the company right on some measures you know Microsoft board got exactly [TS]

  what they thought they should have thought they were gonna get under bomber [TS]

  but one of the ways that I think that he really left them in the lurch was was [TS]

  with how many other executives he effectively pushed out over the last [TS]

  five six years yikes [TS]

  ski like Ray Ozzie [TS]

  Robbie box the other two Xbox Guide a allard Baylor right who you know a lot [TS]

  of people sort of [TS]

  you know even just a couple of years ago even sure what he's up to anymore but [TS]

  even just a couple years ago a lot of people considered him sort of appear to [TS]

  like a Tony Fadell like a rival you know like right you know near the top and [TS]

  then charge of consumer devices in a keen eye for you know leading that sort [TS]

  of team and all those people were gone and all those people who know you know [TS]

  some of them maybe they should have been gone I don't know I always thought Ray [TS]

  Ozzie for example to me was a little bit was not a practical person that always [TS]

  seemed to me when I listen to him talk that he died I was like what did you [TS]

  really say I don't know never it never really made a lot of Sandwell it and he [TS]

  i mean he had he had sort of the hardest of all to step into which was replacing [TS]

  the gates are alright the Chiefs are so I'm not going to say that all of them [TS]

  should have stayed or that it was possible but the fact is that none of [TS]

  them stayed all of them are gone and so in terms of continuity and picking and [TS]

  somebody from the inside and having a smooth transition which you know let's [TS]

  just face it in some aspects the public relations of a CEO transition are the [TS]

  stakes are high but the optics are simple right what you really want is a [TS]

  nice smooth handoff with a handshake and a smile and it all happens in one [TS]

  announcement [TS]

  right it's I'm stepping down and I'm happy to say the board is already [TS]

  approved that my protege insert name here is replacing me the companies in [TS]

  great hands we work together for the last so many years here she has led this [TS]

  part of the company's great success can be happier to great day for the company [TS]

  there you go and then chooses which is exactly what Apple did under very [TS]

  different circumstances for the stepping down of the sea right it was but [TS]

  you know Apple was clearly set up where that's in some alternate universe where [TS]

  you know jobs stayed a step ahead of the cancer but decided you know I took a [TS]

  look at what happened with the cancer and took a look at what he'd done [TS]

  through you know the release of the iPad and said you know what I'm going to [TS]

  Hawaii right I'm going to become chairman of the board and I'm gonna come [TS]

  in for two or three weeks a year and I'm going to Hawaii for the other 50 49 [TS]

  weeks here it would have been Tim Cook is you know he's been COO for all this [TS]

  time he's done a great job [TS]

  companies ingredients you know sign are right it would have been exact same [TS]

  transition just you know not you know without the tragedy [TS]

  yes embalmer really it in and I can't help but feel that you know political [TS]

  intrigue wise the dead he did that on purpose [TS]

  you know that it was to you know it's sort of a godfather mafia movies type [TS]

  scenario but with the city killing them it's just getting squeezing people out [TS]

  of the company [TS]

  yea and they're at their long been those sort of rumors that that is what Ballmer [TS]

  was like you know not so even secretly doing sort of just anyone who was was [TS]

  rising to a level that seemed like a good challenge him in within the company [TS]

  was was somehow immediately you know exited just take for example Sinofsky [TS]

  who is very smart guy and when you read like he enjoys blogging now and stuff is [TS]

  so obvious to me very cogent and makes a lot of sense [TS]

  you know I think if he had still been at the company clearly would have been a if [TS]

  not the leading candidate and he wasn't there anymore and that once he's not [TS]

  there anymore I feel like PR wise the board was kind of you know legally [TS]

  speaking of course they can hire anybody you know they could hire you know they [TS]

  could try to hire Tim Cook they could hire you know they can certainly bring [TS]

  Sinofsky back but bringing Sinofsky back would be like a slap and bombers face [TS]

  and it would make the company look bad for sure they keep their hands were tied [TS]

  in terms of if any of those people who left the company if the board actually [TS]

  thought these are good candidates to lead the company so do you what do you [TS]

  think happens now with Nutella as CEO do you think that there will be more [TS]

  internal sort of shake-up and strafed you see that do you think people will [TS]

  leave because they were either passed over like you know we'll see what [TS]

  happens with Eli by assume that he can't he must have some sort of you know [TS]

  handcuffs to that are part of the Nokia deal where he has to come over and [TS]

  actually stayed within the company for awhile but you know there's a there's [TS]

  others there's no tony Bates we're talking about there's there's several [TS]

  others who you know could have felt like they were slated in some way and are [TS]

  they are they gonna feel we are now being managed by being overseen by what [TS]

  was their peer before I don't know I don't know enough about the company said [TS]

  to have a sense that I my guess is no though it sounds to me and reading the [TS]

  blogs of people who are more juiced into Microsoft and and you know know people [TS]

  who work there it seems like he's a very pop scene as a popular choice from [TS]

  within the company [TS]

  yeah if there are executives who might leave if you like might try to get out [TS]

  now or whatever I don't know but I think in terms of the rank-and-file though [TS]

  it's seen as a good move [TS]

  yeah and I think that's sort of been the consensus among everything you read even [TS]

  sort of talking to Microsoft employees now they seem pretty excited about this [TS]

  I do think though I think there is still the lingering questions in the air as to [TS]

  once this honeymoon period is over what they are actually going to do is it [TS]

  going to just be executing bomber [TS]

  strategy with Nutella or are they going to actually try to make some different [TS]

  choices with you know some of the products that just aren't going anywhere [TS]

  I want to other big question I have is what is bill gates's actual yeah and and [TS]

  was you know it's forget how they phrase it was actually a very deftly turn of [TS]

  phrase where he's not that he stepped down as chairman but he's stepped up in [TS]

  two steps [TS]

  day-to-day role it's actually a no we laugh but it's actually a very good but [TS]

  it totally totally you know so yes so he said he's gonna be spending a third of [TS]

  his time right on this Microsoft now which is significant considering before [TS]

  obviously he was chairman but I think he was you know very involved in a very [TS]

  major way at all it's all his philanthropy and so now he's willing to [TS]

  take on this more but you know what what does that mean you don't know is see I [TS]

  think you know the the easiest thing in the world that I think he could do that [TS]

  would be beneficial to the company is just just a something as simple as sort [TS]

  of being the yes no man you know like the last the last word on like what they [TS]

  actually either they decide to to go after in terms of new projects or what [TS]

  they actually ship it just seems like you know they just sort of her at this [TS]

  place now where the where they sort of put everything out there and in Windows [TS]

  8 is it is a good example of that in my mind because I mean all of us looking at [TS]

  it from the outside not all of us but a lot of us looking at it from the outside [TS]

  I think so too so where this was going with you know I remember I was talking [TS]

  to do sort of developers who are sort of beta testing windows 8 and like you know [TS]

  trying to gauge their their their thoughts on it and everyone was like [TS]

  unanimous in saying like this is gonna be a total nightmare for the company and [TS]

  somehow the company didn't see that they thought it'd be a great thing and they [TS]

  shipped it like I don't know if they just weren't talking to people on the [TS]

  outside or what but there should have been someone within the company who with [TS]

  the power to be able to say look let's let's stop here I know what to look [TS]

  really bad if we if we delay and operate major operating system but you know it [TS]

  might be worse if we ship something [TS]

  you know the the community just totally rejects which is what happened I you [TS]

  know my my take on it as I wrote last week is that I think that Windows 8 was [TS]

  designed to fit a goal as opposed to being designed to be good in and of [TS]

  itself by which I mean that to me [TS]

  bomber never shook the view that the way things ought to be in the world the [TS]

  right way the way the industry should be should be that somewhere around 95% of [TS]

  all computing devices should be running Windows and thats was no you know iOS [TS]

  and Android combined in the two very different ways but you know hand in hand [TS]

  over the last six years [TS]

  change that to the case where did you is the one who crashes I think brilliantly [TS]

  that it's only like if you count smartphones and tablets as computing [TS]

  devices which i think is very very fair you're installing apps on your browsing [TS]

  the web [TS]

  yeah you're doing all the same Windows computers there's more windows devices [TS]

  in use than ever before in the aggregate but because there are so many other [TS]

  computing devices that same explosion of new devices that only you know in 2007 [TS]

  ninety percent of all computing devices were running Windows 98 in 2013 at the [TS]

  end of the year it was like 38% 35% it's an enormous number but now it's like the [TS]

  world is federated it's you know there's there's three or four mega platforms for [TS]

  computing devices in Windows is just one of them and it's not even a majority [TS]

  anymore and it never will be again but I don't think bomber ever came to grips [TS]

  with that and accepted it and I think windows aids goal was like people want [TS]

  touch screens will add a touch screen thing to it and then [TS]

  everything in theory could be running Windows 8 and yep that'll be good and [TS]

  and that's that's so crazy when you think about that just you know when when [TS]

  you're saying there right now it's just like Microsoft obviously looked at the [TS]

  world they saw you know their dominant position and you have to assume that [TS]

  they were like looking around them saying like who could possibly compete [TS]

  with us and sort of looking at the competitions like Apple is out there and [TS]

  they have a very small percentage of of market share with with with Max and [TS]

  instead what happened is they were just totally blindsided cuz they didn't [TS]

  realize that the competition wouldn't come in the form of an actual computer [TS]

  it would come in the form of a phone and then later a tablet and now bomber see [TS]

  you know saw that 67 years too late and now is trying to squeeze windows which [TS]

  doesn't even make sense of course there are no more windows onto these devices [TS]

  in order to unify and get get the house back in order but you just can't do that [TS]

  yeah and I really don't think it matters that much and I you know I got a lot of [TS]

  pushback on that or I got a lot most closely agreement but I got some [TS]

  pushback on my piece last week from people who who truly do believe that [TS]

  what they want is in in admitting that Windows 8 as it is is not perfect not [TS]

  good enough but that the goal is tenable to have one operating system have a [TS]

  device that is terrific for mouse and keyboard trackpad and keyboard and mouse [TS]

  pointer on screen and pixel precise control and touch and that you could do [TS]

  it and then it would simplify things because you've got what you know all [TS]

  that you know you can have your cake and eat it too and you know I'm not going to [TS]

  say the wrong I can't prove that they're wrong all I can say is that everything [TS]

  i've seen today suggests that they're wrong and you know your thinking about [TS]

  it of course like utopian world where everything is perfect [TS]

  would you rather have one device that can do everything vs sort of two or [TS]

  three devices that you have to have with you at all times of course I think [TS]

  everyone would want that but it's not that simple it's not that simple for [TS]

  both users but it's [TS]

  visible for developers can you imagine a developer trying to develop you know of [TS]

  a Windows 8 application for both a phone and a computer that operates in the same [TS]

  way I mean they would operate in the same way and so they would they would [TS]

  take so much more developments into it and like do you think a startup is going [TS]

  to be able to do that and you know a company with like two people they're [TS]

  going to have to to do all this work to get something to work on this Windows [TS]

  unified platform it's it's it's just not realistic to think about it least right [TS]

  now so I don't know you know who in their right mind would actually argue [TS]

  that that we can live in that world right now just weekends and you know to [TS]

  me I have always said you know question I've tried to you know my whole writing [TS]

  career is what is design what does it mean and it's hard it's hard to really [TS]

  nail it down but the best explanation I've ever come up with this design is [TS]

  making decisions to solve problems it's the decision-making and I'll go back to [TS]

  when they unveiled the surface strategy and they came out with two they had the [TS]

  surface that runs real windows and can have you know traditional Windows apps [TS]

  and it runs on Intel chips the surface pro it was great and then there's the [TS]

  surface RT which was the more iPad style one which ran on arm and was thinner and [TS]

  lighter but only ran into the Metro apps to me that's a failure of the design it [TS]

  both are reasonable strategies but you can't ship both right there was just [TS]

  it's nowhere near as profound difference but I know for a fact that I'm sure you [TS]

  I think we even talked about this but late in the game for the original iPad [TS]

  and the original one and for the first two years had an equal with bezel all [TS]

  the way around the screen easy to forget now with the air in the new mini [TS]

  and they had version with the home button where it is and then they had [TS]

  another version where the home button was on the long side and that in other [TS]

  words that is the default orientation of an iPad for horizontal or vertical [TS]

  landscape or portrait and they had both virgins until very late in the game and [TS]

  only made that decision at the end and in fact if I'm not mistaken I'm sure if [TS]

  I am that I get better but I'm pretty sure that the coordinate system of the [TS]

  iPad for developers I don't even know if it still has the same but it is the [TS]

  coordinate system was such that the 00 point made it seem as though the home [TS]

  button should be on the long side not the short side they didn't ship both of [TS]

  those who hate they didn't say hey if you want an iPad figure out which way [TS]

  you want to hold it and you know most of the time and by the one with the home [TS]

  button as such they shipped one they had to decide you know and I know that that [TS]

  happened to be a contentious decision within the company and it was it really [TS]

  was like you know like a 51 to 49 type thing and I you know surely you know [TS]

  because it when it came out that the deciding vote came down to two Steve [TS]

  Jobs but it was you know a lot of people on both sides but I don't think anybody [TS]

  even the people who wanted it on the other side you know the other location [TS]

  nobody would have endorsed the idea of shipping both you know and I feel like [TS]

  that's what that surface pro vs surface RT is that there were people within the [TS]

  company wanted it one way and people who wanted it the other and so they said [TS]

  okay let's make everybody happy will ship both yeah I wonder if if if sort of [TS]

  bombers thought on that was like look we're already behind in this space let's [TS]

  just get both out there and see which works if if any of them work and maybe [TS]

  so but let the masses decide what they want since were we really can't afford [TS]

  to make make a one bed here but you know I can't imagine that is how they played [TS]

  out because of course they took it was in the 900 million dollar right down the [TS]

  party that's it [TS]

  is very detrimental to their that one quarter where it basically saying can [TS]

  take their entire quarter so and that's not bombers as we just talked about you [TS]

  know he's he's the business delivered his numbers and that was the one quarter [TS]

  he did really awful on a billion here a billion there actually do have a problem [TS]

  no matter how big you are ya right let me take a break here and thank our first [TS]

  punch her first sponsor is our good friends at Squarespace you know [TS]

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  and that I just noticed from another sponsor another thing earlier and that [TS]

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  pay and when that happens when you do want to pay to use the offer code bond B [TS]

  O N D and your get 10% off your purchase and they'll know you came from the show [TS]

  my thanks to Squarespace go to Squarespace dot com and remember the [TS]

  offer code bond James Bond [TS]

  a pic they're doing like these cutie codes were they pick things that are of [TS]

  interest to this post to the show but it's easy to remember so go there and my [TS]

  thanks to them they were done with Microsoft does that mean it's gonna be a [TS]

  story for the next knows how many years I do that I guess the only other thing [TS]

  is the fact that that telecoms from the the server-side servers and my colleague [TS]

  Q branch Brent Simmons has written about it that he's really happy because he's [TS]

  done a lot of coating on Azure you know as a backend for an iOS developer and is [TS]

  his point I thought was really really astute where the old Microsoft was [TS]

  always in their own universe technically and you know and it worked out for them [TS]

  but you know they wrote everything was there that was their own OS their own [TS]

  kernel you know they're the only ones in in the world who you know the whole [TS]

  world effectively gone UNIX and Mac OS 10 is Unix Linux is a clone of Unix [TS]

  Android runs on Linux kernel and add the kernel level you know everybody whole [TS]

  world went UNIX except you know if your TiVo runs and Virgin Atlantic's except [TS]

  Windows Windows is like this alternate universe it's this everything was their [TS]

  own their own programming languages their own API's everything that a [TS]

  technical leader in networking their own mail server you know everybody else is [TS]

  using IMAP they have Outlook you know it's all proprietary that was the [TS]

  Microsoft Way and it you know a little bit of stubbornness strategically it was [TS]

  often about locked in [TS]

  the windows server division than $1 and is very different you know they they [TS]

  support you know you can do things like you know really hip modern stuff like [TS]

  node.js and how do people say that they say the dot dot Jas you know yeah and I [TS]

  wonder so you know you'd you'd hope that that mentality sort of spreads to the [TS]

  other divisions now and they sort of Microsoft Certified opens up I think you [TS]

  know if if they are going to do that Dell is obviously the right person to [TS]

  make that happen I think that he recognizes it is realistic about the [TS]

  world that we live in the world Microsoft exists and now and it can't be [TS]

  the siloed behemoth anymore because that is the way that's the way forward of you [TS]

  know the company eventually you know finding hard times very hard times [TS]

  potentially while you know we talked about the numbers are great now you know [TS]

  the numbers can be deceiving a lot of times the numbers are great for Nokia [TS]

  the numbers are great for RIM leading up to win over said they're not great and [TS]

  you could argue that microsoft certainly has a lot of the characteristics of [TS]

  those same companies even when posting great numbers because there's a few [TS]

  things that can happen that can make the ship sort of start to sink really [TS]

  quickly and the della is given sort of all the stuff that you're talking about [TS]

  and his his willingness to realize the world that we live in now I think that [TS]

  he is probably the best candidates is sort of try to wake of Microsoft up yeah [TS]

  I think numbers financial numbers are and I don't think there's any kind of [TS]

  deep inside and it is common sense but it it seems like an awful lot of people [TS]

  can be pulled by there a lagging indicator not a leading indicator right [TS]

  so the iPhone didn't make a huge dent financially for a ball for a couple of [TS]

  years you know it happened pretty quickly but certainly 2007 it it was not [TS]

  a significant financial thing I mean the whole thing was a wedding their goal for [TS]

  the first year as a selling one million phones yep [TS]

  and you know a lot of people thought that was a lot of people thought they [TS]

  weren't gonna do it or whether was it ten million in the first appearance may [TS]

  be going in for the year maybe was for the year but yeah he did state that [TS]

  million thing he wanted to get that there was a certain percentage that they [TS]

  were trying to hit one percent of the phone market that's right it took a [TS]

  little bit and if you just looked at how many phones they were selling when the [TS]

  first iPhone came out it was not that huge and conversely RIM had a great year [TS]

  in 2007 and 2008 Nokia was still good I was in the research on an an article on [TS]

  writing maybe we'll talk about it later in the show the same same subject but [TS]

  just about that same subject leading numbers as a leading lagging indicator [TS]

  in October of 2007 here is a headline in the New York Times [TS]

  this is five or six months after their iPhone shipped Nokia profit soars as [TS]

  marketshare need nears 40 percent right you know the numbers are not I don't [TS]

  know I think that that's right [TS]

  who when Microsoft CFO step down early right and what did you write about that [TS]

  I thought that was just remember that really stuck out my mind I think I said [TS]

  using the game of Thrones analogy like who is who is best poised to know when [TS]

  winter is coming right [TS]

  the CFO right who is second best to know the CEO and so both of those guys are [TS]

  gone right that this you know if there's anybody in Microsoft who maybe had a [TS]

  good smell something in the air that you know not this quarter not next quarter [TS]

  but down the road [TS]

  yeah let's start looking at talking about years rather than quarters and [TS]

  maybe look one or two years ahead [TS]

  you know trouble is brewing very likely would have been the CFO he got out of [TS]

  Dodge did ended by the way he i think he said at the time and Microsoft statement [TS]

  at the time was it you know he was taking some he's been in the in the [TS]

  ranks for you know thirty forty years or whatever it was and he is finally ready [TS]

  to just take time and be with his family indefinitely and I think four months [TS]

  later he was in a new CNN right and that does get back down to the those those [TS]

  very simple PR optics of executive shake-ups a big companies that you know [TS]

  you always say that you never want to make it look like there's any kind you [TS]

  know no matter how ugly it is you want to downplay the ugliness [TS]

  you know and that's true for all companies are not just laughing at [TS]

  Microsoft mean it's the same way when forestall got pushed out at Apple and [TS]

  they were a little bit little bit honest about it with the whole increased [TS]

  collaboration you know which is right exactly where they were indirectly on [TS]

  this they did say that for so was was the problem but they indicated there was [TS]

  a problem with you know with everyone sort of being on the same page right you [TS]

  could read between the lines in it came out that those of us who are left are [TS]

  gonna get along a lot better now have you heard of anything from about him [TS]

  recently by the way no I have not as you I haven't either no I would assume you [TS]

  know like the way that these deals usually are structured is that someone [TS]

  is you know being shown the door but at the same time they've somewhat [TS]

  proprietary information and knowledge about especially with Apple with top [TS]

  secret things sort of being worked on that Apple certainly doesn't want them [TS]

  going to a competitor and really doesn't want them out on the marketplace at all [TS]

  and so you know they usually give them some sort of exit package which is very [TS]

  well you know compensated for ensuring that they stay with the company for [TS]

  something like a year sometimes more sometimes less [TS]

  I think Tony Fadell may have had the same type of thing you know he's a [TS]

  Fidelis was not as contentious no definitely not I think that that's a [TS]

  hundred percent true but you know he was you know as forestall I believe is now [TS]

  special advisor to the CEO or whatever [TS]

  yeah I don't know if you still is or not it's it's you know they they never named [TS]

  it what is period was I have heard I have not heard what he's up to [TS]

  I have heard from a pretty good little birdie that yeah they exactly what [TS]

  you're saying is did but that he was offered what in never forget the words a [TS]

  truckload of money and you drive off in this truck full of cash and four acts he [TS]

  did not know is how how long axis has gas was a year but maybe it's never over [TS]

  the next year for the next year you do nothing you cannot work for anybody and [TS]

  you cannot speak to anybody and you don't treat you don't have a facebook [TS]

  you you know anybody in a reporter's call you you don't answer the phone [TS]

  not just talk about Apple but anything right so I do think that that's what has [TS]

  happened in the interesting thing now of course is that it has been a year it's [TS]

  it's it's just over a year right now it was yeah it's like December so it's you [TS]

  know i i i remembered looking it up for the date and I knew that it was after [TS]

  all of the product announcements [TS]

  you know right it was the Tide's a slow period [TS]

  yeah I forgot it was November or December but it was somewhere around [TS]

  there and I ever since then I've sort of like [TS]

  just so you know double check to make sure that he hasn't started you know [TS]

  maybe showing up at events and stuff like that but so far I've heard nothing [TS]

  I heard from a one reader who saw him somewhere wasn't you know was just [TS]

  thinking it's like he's not you know housebound is not under house arrest but [TS]

  yeah it's so I do think that we will see him surface at some point in the next [TS]

  few months I do wonder you know he's he's a rhodes of the young guy that he [TS]

  could definitely do a startup if he wanted to he would certainly have no [TS]

  problem getting any funding that he wanted he said he's 41 something he's [TS]

  right around my age very very one of the weird what if one of the weird wild [TS]

  cards is to sort of take us to be together what if Microsoft tries to hire [TS]

  you know a lot of people that's like a frequently asked question in my reader [TS]

  email is not now but during the whole run-up was would that be possible I [TS]

  guess it's not impossible but I always thought that it wasn't a good match for [TS]

  either company just because they're so different right in pretty much every way [TS]

  right and I don't think that he would want to I would imagine he would do [TS]

  something more like a lot more like Tony Fadell go get some funding and start [TS]

  something new that would be obviously you know nasty came you know relatively [TS]

  big relatively quickly sold for over three billion dollars which is you know [TS]

  talking billions not millions pretty good deal but compared the Apple where [TS]

  fidel was before very very small right but you can't start something that right [TS]

  you can either start something new that's relatively small even if it has a [TS]

  lot of investment and very big goals or you can step into an existing giant and [TS]

  I i just don't see forestall stepping into an existing giant I guess I guess [TS]

  maybe the only one I could see and I have no idea what he'll do any insight [TS]

  into the only real knowledge of what's going on but I wouldn't be shocked if [TS]

  somehow Facebook convinced him to come there and to do some sort of skunkworks [TS]

  project [TS]

  that you know that he would be best suited for it just like you feel when I [TS]

  see I see Facebook do sort of these deals a lot where they'd a higher sort [TS]

  of above what you think their weight should be right where they they [TS]

  convinced these people to get in there and and sort of work on these projects [TS]

  and just give them whatever resources they need and so that wouldn't actually [TS]

  shocked me even though that would be a shot sort of a shocking headline I [TS]

  wouldn't be so surprised by the Yeah Yeah I think I would see it more really [TS]

  only one more as Facebook incubating aid and ambitious new division i-aa not that [TS]

  he would step in and run anything that Facebook already has yeah I could see [TS]

  that I would say that is one existing company that I could see him going to [TS]

  couldn't see him going to Google couldn't Microsoft I just don't see it a [TS]

  really down adjusted to seems like it's it's intriguing that think about it but [TS]

  I just don't see how it really match would have matched up for either of them [TS]

  yet agree I largely agree with that i think you know the only reason I bring [TS]

  it up now is just because the new leadership saying you know like maybe [TS]

  maybe he's able to be convinced that things are really going to do they [TS]

  really want to change things and so you know this is how we get this is how much [TS]

  we want to change things were bringing in a guy synonymous with sort of apple [TS]

  and and one of Steve Jobs lieutenant from the next days you know it's really [TS]

  show you how different were thinking here's a question i've i've thought [TS]

  about and to me I don't know I don't really mean it as a joke I actually [TS]

  actually makes me a little sad is did you think Scott Forstall upgraded his [TS]

  phone to iOS 7 that's a very good it is funny but he's still wouldn't have to [TS]

  write like there's you could still get away with running well as the last [TS]

  version of 66 but he'd have to also be running an old iPhone 5 can't you can't [TS]

  use an iPhone 5s and it did he get a five ass after like buy it online I he [TS]

  seems like a green five see gardener but I i I know it is it's funny but it's not [TS]

  I've met forestall a few types can say I'm close to home but I've met him he [TS]

  was always very nice to me and you know i i liked him right and you know I would [TS]

  I would also say that are clearly I'm a big fan of his work and wow you know [TS]

  whether it was the right move or not to squeeze them out is almost beside the [TS]

  point I just feel bad that it didn't work out I do in a certain way and I can [TS]

  imagine it if it was his life's work i mean the only thing he ever did was work [TS]

  it next it went right from college to next and worked his way up and you know [TS]

  it was a continuous thing for his entire adult life working from next to Apple [TS]

  and Mac OS 10 transition to Mac OS 10 to the entire creation of iOS and you know [TS]

  I think very clearly they took iOS in a different direction and so yeah he'd be [TS]

  using it everyday and staring at like the cause of his [TS]

  what else what else is he going to do is not gonna switch to Android surely he [TS]

  still is using an iPhone I think I think I can imagine my only real like I I [TS]

  don't think I've ever interacted with I don't think in all the time we get all [TS]

  the different events I don't think I ever actually spoke with him but I have [TS]

  seen him of course of number of times and actually saw him out in about once [TS]

  at a concert of all places and I just remember might might might lasting sort [TS]

  of memory of that is it's him just like being very adamant about taking so many [TS]

  pictures using his iPhone and you know that leads me to believe that even if he [TS]

  hates I was seven he has to like the iPhone 5 just for the better camera [TS]

  might be just using it solely for the camera and willing to forego his sort of [TS]

  hatred if he has a 79 surely up until when the iPhone 5s came out he'd never [TS]

  bought an iPhone in his life i mean he'd been using the new ones you know as soon [TS]

  as they were you know prototypes were in from the factory [TS]

  you know and and presumably every single detail in pixel of the OS met with his [TS]

  approval or at least you know he'd gotten his input into a now to me it's [TS]

  like it's like a weird [TS]

  magnuson area what does he do go online and do it and he can't go to an Apple [TS]

  store right so he's gotta go online or maybe no maybe as an assistant or [TS]

  something you know this is like the end of Shawshank Redemption [TS]

  like this is not but it's more like the character the old man who sort of gets [TS]

  reintroduced into the world after all the years and right in prison for hate [TS]

  it and use it doesn't know how to do anything right and it's a hasn't seen a [TS]

  supermarket with with OCR scanners [TS]

  was it had the thing with george bush the first george bush president has he [TS]

  been a vice president for like you know from Mike 1980 and then he was the [TS]

  president and then you know it came out like when he's running against clinton [TS]

  in ninety-three he'd never seen a OCR scanner in a supermarket why make fun of [TS]

  him for that guides you know hadn't done grocery shopping to what did you think [TS]

  that the vice president does grocery shopping now so be you know last time [TS]

  he'd been in the supermarket was like 1979 I don't know I just to his [TS]

  something to imagine I don't know I'm betting he does I'm betting he's alive [TS]

  everybody does to think it would be hard I think it also would be very hard for [TS]

  someone like him to use old technology when he's been so bleeding edge of the [TS]

  entire time [TS]

  be frustrating but he's like in a unique situation where you know that the [TS]

  what-ifs we'll never stop in terms of you know what he's got this hand but [TS]

  that's my guess my guess is he has a 5s 2007 and just see this might even run I [TS]

  was seven that one because it's finally doesn't crash that raises another [TS]

  question do these sign up for a developer is shirley is old one doesn't [TS]

  work he's can't you know I'm pretty sure that you know that is cut off from the [TS]

  Apple VP endings can't just [TS]

  do that and you think like he's been tinkering around with making some apps I [TS]

  wonder why don't I mean it's absolutely the case I don't think that he was spent [TS]

  his days as a senior VP writing code but I mean he you know that's he worked his [TS]

  way up from the right yeah I remember there was it was it [TS]

  WWDC session a couple years ago and it's sort of an obscure one and I forget who [TS]

  is leading it but I was sitting in the audience and it was but the guy on stage [TS]

  was an old next and what he's doing is still just an engineer senior engineer [TS]

  at our bond is given the WBC presentation he was talking about [TS]

  something and iOS that was maybe it was back those 10 but either way that had [TS]

  roots back to an old thing that he had done it next in 1989 and he's here and [TS]

  show you what I did and then I wrote 1989 milos next and you know you could [TS]

  see the roots are here today and he was like here's the about box from the thing [TS]

  I wrote then and it was the credits for him and Scott Forstall I don't happen to [TS]

  the other guy and is enforced always till the senior VP was spent last year [TS]

  but it was a big big belly laugh at the audience yes he was he was listed second [TS]

  cuz he was like an intern or something but you know he was writing code I don't [TS]

  know could be yeah it would be interesting if he came out with [TS]

  something if he you know came out you know D cloaked with some kind of start [TS]

  up that was iOS related and so he's always been a software guy so you'd [TS]

  assume he's not going to do sort of the Tony Fadell you know start up so he [TS]

  would do more of a software type start-up you wouldn't you would assume [TS]

  maybe he's maybe he would pair up with someone who has sort of hardware [TS]

  experience and certainly there are plenty of Acts Apple people now with the [TS]

  hardware experience that he would know but if he were to do something by [TS]

  himself it would presumably be something and software [TS]

  I don't know good question I take a break and thank my second sponsor and it [TS]

  is our good friends at pack place back place is unlimited on throttled back up [TS]

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  backed up though goes to their thing in the cloud $5 a month as much space as [TS]

  you have in your Mac back at all just takes longer for the first backup that's [TS]

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  get anything that's on your Mac cuz its mirrored in the cloud their profile look [TS]

  something up its founded by X Apple engineers I always emphasized this [TS]

  because it is written by people who you know knowing get the Mac it doesn't feel [TS]

  like some kind of foreign thing that was ported to Mac runs great on Mavericks up [TS]

  to date there's no add-ons no gimmicks no additional charges you just sign up [TS]

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  and then when you're ready to go when you see how it works $5 a month per [TS]

  computer and that's it [TS]

  the simplest online backup program to use just install it does the rest and I [TS]

  always emphasized this it's such peace of mind I'm happy back plz user and it [TS]

  it is it's such a peace of mind to have a backup that's off site because you [TS]

  just never know you know fire theft like I said I pointed out when marco was on [TS]

  the show the other week you know the things you don't even think of light [TS]

  water damage like a pipe in the ceiling above your computer is and then and [TS]

  somebody some reader wrote in and said that exact scenario happened to them [TS]

  where they're upstairs neighbor left their tub running and he came in and his [TS]

  MacBook was just completely drenched you know by the gallons of water just [TS]

  completely fried everything on his desk is hard drive so if you have like a time [TS]

  machine hard drive next year that's good but it's not off-site back boys gives [TS]

  you peace of mind really great service where do you go to find out more go to [TS] / daring fireball and don't know you came from here and then [TS]

  they came from the show and can recommend them enough really really good [TS]

  stuff thanks to back please [TS]

  about Facebook paper yes I have not reviewed you don't have facebook yes [TS]

  this is the dilemma and explain why I have not written about this much under [TS]

  incredible I have never signed up for Facebook still haven't have never been [TS]

  tempted to until now because I'm tempted [TS]

  Facebook just use paper and in fact I i've been talking about this for longer [TS]

  than just the last week because I actually got a briefing from Facebook in [TS]

  New York a week or two before paper came out they you know Mike Mathis emailed me [TS]

  and said hey you know I got 55 got something to show you know what might [TS]

  come up and see you in New York as I sure and i was just blown away [TS]

  absolutely positive I haven't written about it because I don't know how to [TS]

  contextualize it yet because I am so why don't you just make it can you make like [TS]

  just a dummy account friend anyone just you know now you know and it's we I [TS]

  guess that's what I should do I don't know I mean I've seen I most of my [TS]

  experience at the apt is with Mike's account I just used my baby he just has [TS]

  a beautiful family and that's why you're like well you know that's the pushback [TS]

  against it the pushback against paper that I've seen is that it's it it's [TS]

  great if your friends are all UI design artists who take great photos and it [TS]

  isn't great if you're like most people on Facebook and its family takes really [TS]

  shitty photos you no posts [TS]

  you know cat gifts and stuff like that so your your predicament raises an [TS]

  interesting question which is that I wonder if Facebook is able to either for [TS]

  the first time obviously you know that you're you're certainly an oddity in the [TS]

  in being in a developed country you know and not having having Facebook at this [TS]

  point but I wonder if they feel like it's also an opportunity to not only [TS]

  bring in new but re-engage sort of people who are who are burnt out by [TS]

  Facebook which is many many people I mean basically you talk to anyone in you [TS]

  know within your own personal circles you'll have several people who say like [TS]

  Facebook is so lame now Facebook is sort of it's all just you know it's also my [TS]

  parents or its just you know just sort of like old high school friends and I [TS]

  never talk to any more using it so it's really not that interesting to me [TS]

  anymore but paper you know is a complete reimagining of what the experience [TS]

  should be like and there are definitely things that I like and don't like about [TS]

  it certainly is beautifully designed and I think there's some great functionality [TS]

  in there but I don't really i mean week we could dive into all the little of [TS]

  little things about it I'm a little concerned that a lot of what and you [TS]

  will know this better having talked to Mike Maddux about it directly but I'm a [TS]

  little bit concerned that it's that it's a little bit too worried about sort of [TS]

  addressing the Twitter question head-on which is you know like no one is using [TS]

  facebook really to talk about current events or at least the right people [TS]

  aren't using Facebook that they want to get the word out there like during the [TS]

  Super Bowl you know like sweets are going crazy everyone's talking about it [TS]

  is anyone using facebook facebook tried to get people using it this year they [TS]

  they'd reached out to buttress celebrities [TS]

  document leaked you know talking about like what you should be using Facebook [TS]

  for during the Super Bowl in so when I look at paper when I look beyond the [TS]

  obvious beauty on the surface I see sort of a a desire to get back into sort of [TS]

  the real-time news conversation which I don't know I don't know if that's coming [TS]

  from the right place or not [TS]

  yeah I think you're off on [TS]

  and having talked to Mike about it I don't think that's what their goal is I [TS]

  think their goal is the little bit it's almost obvious which is that in fact [TS]

  it's a direct answer to the thing I just said a minute ago that the that the [TS]

  complaint is that people aren't cultivating what they post to Facebook [TS]

  to make it beautiful and papers theory is the paper teams there is nobody is [TS]

  going to do that until we give them beautiful way a beautiful interface to [TS]

  do it that it's it's there if we build it they will come [TS]

  theory that they have to build a beautiful interface to paper first that [TS]

  encourages a sort of moral I know that a lot of people are gonna laugh and say [TS]

  come on Facebook and artistic expression [TS]

  you know not what it was for but that's you know that's a little bit high [TS]

  polluting but it's more like what they're thinking that if we give him [TS]

  this beautiful serene interface that that's why that's when people will start [TS]

  posting things that actually fit better in paper in a little bit more cultivated [TS]

  but curated I don't know what you want to say but that people will generate [TS]

  content that fits in paper and fitzy feels right and paper only after paper [TS]

  is out and actually exists that has a good old first so I don't think it's [TS]

  about real-time stuff okay that's interesting so that's why I can [TS]

  understand how I can understand that line of thinking I will say one other [TS]

  thing that I did here so this was sort of this was being talked about in paper [TS]

  was released in a bunch of people sort of tweeted about it I did and others but [TS]

  have since heard from a pretty good source on this that it's also not out of [TS]

  left field to think that this is how Facebook is sort of experimenting with [TS]

  new UI to see what would work for the actual product itself so I asked I asked [TS]

  about that like so much of this response did you get that not a direct response [TS]

  and I you know so I don't put words in the [TS]

  Mikes mouth or anybody so i didnt get but you know I think reading between the [TS]

  landing just looking at the app it is clear you know and it's exactly what you [TS]

  wrote on Paris lemon that there is no way that they could drop you know put [TS]

  out a Facebook app version that was this and just no way too many users right and [TS]

  its two way to different and it doesn't have the complete Facebook experience it [TS]

  doesn't have everything though it does have a lot i think is way more than I [TS]

  thought it it's it is a very largely a you know it's you know what it's a lot [TS]

  like it's a lot like mobile email clients where you know maybe your mobile [TS]

  email client doesn't do everything that you can do with the email but it does [TS]

  most of it right there you can do most of what you doin email with the mail [TS]

  claim you're using on your phone even if it doesn't do everything and you might [TS]

  have to use something at your desk to create I don't think I can you create [TS]

  new folders in mail are most mail apps on iphone maybe not but you know you can [TS]

  certainly read all of your mail and reply to it [TS]

  do a lot of other stuff flag comments that Facebook paper is largely a an [TS]

  alternative to Facebook . out your phone when I already I replace [TS]

  with paper pretty much [TS]

  day one because it is so much better it's just a number of things are better [TS]

  about it I find the performance actually better which is sort of surprising given [TS]

  how visual it is but formats is better [TS]

  it's obviously looks a lot better and it does like you know what you're saying it [TS]

  performs the basic sort of the high-level functions that you need the [TS]

  one thing its missing the one complaint that people do bring up you use Facebook [TS]

  is that is missing events and the rumor of course is that Facebook is working on [TS]

  a separate events at the air that's what I think [TS]

  well and I think it all it it fits and I think you know I'd certainly don't know [TS]

  I don't don't know his mind but the evidence that I've seen with the [TS]

  acquisitions they've made including mattresses push pop press little over [TS]

  two years ago when he bought so far and also knowing and you know this is [TS]

  something I can't name names but its iOS and Mac developer community they pretty [TS]

  much went to anybody who's done like Apple Design Award level work and made a [TS]

  quick higher offers [TS]

  there's an awful lot of an awful lot of people who you think I wonder if they [TS]

  went to them the answer is probably yes which makes sense for them right [TS]

  like what's the best talent in the world to do what they want to do it's right in [TS]

  front of them right and i think that explanation is that for a while Zach had [TS]

  in mind that Facebook was a website and that the mobile version should be a [TS]

  mobile version of that website and you know the area you know the early [TS]

  versions of the Facebook app for iPhone where is the developer was a joke it was [TS]

  Joe Joe Hewitt you know Hewitt and he did great work and he did you know it [TS]

  was you know do you do you remember the html5 version you know but yet they were [TS]

  native apps that was like the first really impresses application that I saw [TS]

  again not a native application on the web browser built for the iPhone well so [TS]

  London you can definitely say for the sake and Facebook is as soon as the [TS]

  iPhone came out they instantly so we need to be on that and they did it you [TS]

  know before the Riva naps and then when there were perhaps but they do their [TS]

  initial appt was a lot more like not native you know using web things in a [TS]

  web use and stuff like that and I feel like it like a lot of you know as a [TS]

  suggestion indication that he is a very good CEO I think Zach had a complete 180 [TS]

  and realize you know what [TS]

  native apps matter for mobile performance for latency for just the way [TS]

  you know it it just isn't gonna work to to to be one level behind in abstraction [TS]

  with all the little nagging things that that entails and it was like so what do [TS]

  we do let's hire some great native app developers and designers and I think [TS]

  also part of that is that you on the phone mobile in general it makes more [TS]

  sense to have not a ton of apps but more separate apps them one app that does [TS]

  everything especially for something the size of facebook facebook can do so many [TS]

  that you know you do events you check you do [TS]

  status updates you pictures like all these things it's like it was getting is [TS]

  getting almost ridiculous like the side menu and that's in the previous one [TS]

  where it's like they're so there's so many different things that you can drill [TS]

  down into its almost like ridiculous to try to hit some of them with with the [TS]

  fingertip right and you know take a look at apple with iTunes right now on the [TS]

  Mac and Windows and there's a large part of that is because they have to maintain [TS]

  parity on Mac and Windows but it's a monolithic app and you know it's almost [TS]

  at this point it's almost infamous for being overloaded with responsibilities [TS]

  and iOS they viewed and as sort of stayed with everything broken apart in [TS]

  two separate app stores in music player app and there's a store out for buying [TS]

  music [TS]

  and a podcast app for podcasts and you can see you know a lot of people are [TS]

  happy with that with the podcast app adjust the fact that the way Apple sees [TS]

  it it should be a separate app says a lot you know the dads the way that's the [TS]

  way to develop for mobile and I think Facebook has that in mind too and so did [TS]

  you talk to us at all about the fact that it's it's obviously iPhone first [TS]

  and iPhone or iPad right and I think it's you know it's just it's the obvious [TS]

  that you know it took them this long to build the iPhone version and it's ready [TS]

  to ship and so they shipped it and you know no comment on you know whether it [TS]

  there's going to be an iPad version or there's going to be an Android version [TS]

  and although a I got the feeling you can quote me on it and and that's not a [TS]

  quote but I did get the feeling of that his team at least at the moment is an [TS]

  Iowa steam that they did you know that it's a relatively small [TS]

  you know that if and when there is going to be an Android version of paper that [TS]

  its need to expand to do it well and I i wonder if it would even be that team [TS]

  right like if if this really is sort of thinking about this in the in the in the [TS]

  new anyway that you're suggesting sort of moving away from that this Facebook [TS]

  is a web site and now it's it's it's whatever it needs to be on whatever [TS]

  device you're using and so you know you could certainly make the argument that [TS]

  maybe it should be different for Android entirely then it is even right now for [TS]

  with paper with iOS I have i think thats difference screen sizes and different [TS]

  metaphor is indifferent you know capabilities you know I wes is is much [TS]

  more everybody's always said that suits you know things animate smoother its has [TS]

  these transitions and has [TS]

  when you want to do GPU and sent tens of things you you have this tremendous [TS]

  advantage of only having to target you know two or three GPUs I don't know what [TS]

  I don't know how far back Facebook paperworks I don't know if they support [TS]

  like before us or what the limit is but even so it's there's only three Jay even [TS]

  if they go back all the way to do for us it's only three generations that they [TS]

  have to support and it's a very very graphically intensive at so I wonder I [TS]

  wonder if Facebook will be sorted the first major service to go like total in [TS]

  a totally different direction with their application for Android just because of [TS]

  what you're talking about where madison's team is is i would assume all [TS]

  iOS right now and they would either have to hire and sort of trained people to in [TS]

  terms of what they built for iOS and sort of it even though it's not [TS]

  technically be like a quote unquote port it would still sort of the airport right [TS]

  it would be like right if they were going to call it paper yeah so interface [TS]

  and style I don't think they're gonna do I really wouldn't be surprised if [TS]

  there's never I don't know the answer really don't i mean but my my guess is I [TS]

  would be surprised if there's never paper for Android but like you just said [TS]

  if there's something else [TS]

  Facebook something else for Android that is has a different interface and then [TS]

  never exist for iOS which by the way they've done that's what Facebook home [TS]

  was right right was right it was a hundred only [TS]

  yeah I and maybe that's actually a good way of thinking that they've already [TS]

  done that they've already done a friend right that doesn't exist on iOS and it's [TS]

  sort of embracing rather than trying to do this [TS]

  seen them as two versions of the same idea treat them as different to [TS]

  different things which i think is actually closer to the truth [TS]

  yeah and don't do that way don't see this the way that Windows and Mac OS 10 [TS]

  involved where a company like Adobe more or less had the exact same interface for [TS]

  you know Photoshop and InDesign and Illustrator on Windows and Mac you know [TS]

  where the only differences were the iOS you know the specific things like that [TS]

  menu bars at the top and the Mac and menu is a window on Windows but [TS]

  otherwise it you know they shipped at the same time they had the same features [TS]

  they were built from the same code base I don't think that's the way to do iOS [TS]

  and Android I really agree I think that the you know to too often we see these [TS]

  companies go into it while we built the iOS version is doing great now let's [TS]

  make the Android version it's gonna be the same Instagram its exact same thing [TS]

  as an example where that makes sense because it does but when you would you [TS]

  should go into the mentality was we want to create the best application for this [TS]

  specific device rather than the other way around [TS]

  yeah and I you know Twitter maybe as an example of doing that wrong where [TS]

  they're sort of developing this like single-minded single Twitter interface [TS]

  that everywhere right you know I don't though we'll see if that continues that [TS]

  was that was that was definitely the marching order for a long time and I [TS]

  think that a lot of that was driven by the need for simplicity cross-platform [TS]

  simplicity to get users to understand what what they're doing when they look [TS]

  at one thing you know it's like oh here's where the treatment is like so I [TS]

  know what to do but I would be surprised if that's changing 250 [TS]

  so things with paper the thing that fascinates me and it's it's there's two [TS]

  sides to it there's one is it a good client for Facebook and that I don't [TS]

  know how to judge cuz I'm gonna Facebook users so I honestly don't know how to [TS]

  judge but two from a design perspective it is fascinating because it's it is [TS]

  almost like a real imagination of what I owe us should be it doesn't feel foreign [TS]

  it doesn't feel wake like alien but it's definitely not standard and it's it is [TS]

  and it's it is of a piece with Mike madison's previous works and very [TS]

  specifically with with the work they did it push pop press the only the only [TS]

  example of which we could we we saw publicly was the [TS]

  algor book our choice right which is worth but if you're an interface [TS]

  designer it's worth buying that not to read even if no interest in the book [TS]

  itself it's worth buying as an example of an alternative way to think about [TS]

  touch screen design is it still it still available hope so I don't know I don't [TS]

  know but this you know and I don't know how much you know you never know I mean [TS]

  there is a team in his modest is not the only designer but I think the whole team [TS]

  is on board with the philosophy and the philosophy is why I think one way to put [TS]

  it is that it that Apple wasn't old enough with iOS right and you go back [TS]

  all the way to Steve Jobs is 2007 unveiling of the original iPhone and and [TS]

  he spoke at the highest level was introducing in sort of framing how we [TS]

  should think about this that it was when he sneaked snuck in the the big about a [TS]

  stylist you know that [TS]

  1984 we made this thing called them back and you did all this stuff visually [TS]

  using a mouse to guide her on-screen what we gonna do for a pointer here goes [TS]

  well the stylist and everybody of course not terrible and everybody laugh because [TS]

  stylist a piece of junk you gonna lose it nobody wants that no we're all born [TS]

  with a pointer right here and he stuck up his index finger right and that's the [TS]

  you know high-level that's the the breakthrough of Iowa State you just use [TS]

  your finger and you do things so instead of having a scrollbar that you moved to [TS]

  scroll the content you just touch the content and move it and you scroll and [TS]

  there's not if you don't have a button you know like and you think back and we [TS]

  you know it's easy to sort of forget and you see this evolution over the years of [TS]

  the Mac and Windows where we're like we have the wheel or the trackpad or [TS]

  something but think back to the original Mac and the original windows before the [TS]

  ribbon scroll Wilson license to scroll the content you had to put the cursor on [TS]

  the arrow in the scrollbar declared or get on the elevator whatever you want to [TS]

  call it and drag it and it was a complete level of abstraction that you [TS]

  had to click the button the arrow buttons to scroll it or click the actual [TS]

  click and drag the actual will to do it and iOS completely eliminated the entire [TS]

  thing where it's all just direct but in other areas it's a lot of the standard [TS]

  iOS navigation just think about like to add that i think are very very almost [TS]

  canonical if you want to study what it is to be an iOS app mail and like the [TS]

  settings out setup is maybe the best example settings is just pure I less [TS]

  it's a lot of buttons and even like you go into a level and then how do you go [TS]

  back you go to the top left and there's a button and hit the back button and you [TS]

  click the tab the back button as though you use your finger to tap the button in [TS]

  the same way that you do use a mouse pointer to click a button on an end the [TS]

  madness philosophy and and paper really exemplifies this is that you get rid of [TS]

  those buttons too and you just open and close things you know you can tap on a [TS]

  thing to open and close it you just squeeze it and it gets smaller and goes [TS]

  back to the smaller state and it's not just and it's not just the obvious sort [TS]

  of or not what's been around for a while like pinch to zoom in sort of pitch to [TS]

  close it is like a simple is sort of drag up in drag down yeah yeah so you [TS]

  don't even have to use two fingers it's that's what that's my favorite thing [TS]

  about yet where you know I'm looking at it right now and just like the sort of [TS]

  bar along the bottom with the content that you scroll through it almost is in [TS]

  a way it's like in the shape of your thumb right it's a drawing or some words [TS]

  it to to put it [TS]

  place it on there and then once you do that you just sort of move up and then [TS]

  you're right into it and you can read it the entire way when it's going up [TS]

  because it's it's just killing it right up and then to to get away you just push [TS]

  it back down it's it's very well done and it's very natural and it is really [TS]

  unlike the standard system in a profound way even though it's so simple and part [TS]

  of it there's there's a humility towards it where it's not a lot of like [TS]

  with bangs stuff that you could i mean I'm not for example I know that Matusz [TS]

  worked on when he was at Apple years ago worked on time machine and time machines [TS]

  interface is look at look at this this is supposed to be like whoa right with [TS]

  the whole windows 8 going into 3d and they're in outer space and it's like it [TS]

  is a very ostentatious design and it doesn't matter where you know whether [TS]

  you think it's a good design for for a backup system or not it's ostentatious [TS]

  write the paper thing is is very humble and my opinion because I think normal [TS]

  people they might think hey this is nice but they're not gonna be like wow it [TS]

  it's you know and I mean that as a very high compliment that it's it's not [TS]

  trying to show off its all and I think there's tons I know for a fact that [TS]

  there's tons and tons of work to get these things because they're not built [TS]

  into the system you don't get them for free from Cocoa Touch this these you [TS]

  know opening and closing and smooth everything is super smooth all custom [TS]

  and it's all super smooth and the big problem with any kind of high-level [TS]

  navigate this design is that there's a very few number of gestures available [TS]

  and you have to allocate them you have to decide to be very careful about it so [TS]

  just think back to the original Mac and I think in hindsight we can probably [TS]

  agree that a mistake that they made was that single click in the Finder selects [TS]

  an item and double-click opens because double-click is cognitively difficult [TS]

  for normal people it is they end and you know and it's led to you know the the [TS]

  best example as people whose parents double click on links in [TS]

  race because they they somehow they they don't understand that some things you [TS]

  click on to open in some things you double click open and you kinda have to [TS]

  have a deeper understanding of how the computer is working as opposed to how [TS]

  the interface is working to know that difference which is why you know it [TS]

  makes way more sense the way that I west and almost every modern system works for [TS]

  you tapped open and you do like a long tap to select or something else but that [TS]

  tapped oh and do you have so few things to do and and you don't want to get into [TS]

  a thing where where anything primary involves things like well you can put [TS]

  two fingers on screen and dried up and down while normal people are never gonna [TS]

  get that right [TS]

  pinching with two fingers they'll get because it's it is it feels real but [TS]

  things like the iOS four finger swipe to switch apps that's a power user will [TS]

  feature that it's absolutely fine that Apple made that I think it's fine [TS]

  feature I use it especially on the iPad I don't have it turned on the phone but [TS]

  on the iPad I use it all the time but I you know it it's I guarantee you 99.5% [TS]

  of all iPad users have no idea that it exists and if you told them it exists [TS]

  they would forget it by tomorrow so what Facebook had to solve with paper is what [TS]

  can you how much can you do with one finger just dragging you've got left [TS]

  right and you've got up down and that's it and so you go left right to navigate [TS]

  between items in the stream [TS]

  and up to open down to close and it's even though it's a little bit more sort [TS]

  of interesting how they're doing it because there's also down like it seems [TS]

  like one of the issues that they're having which I understand is that people [TS]

  don't know at first how to create a post right because that's another swipe down [TS]

  from the top and there's no real indication that that's there is through [TS]

  the walk-through of course but there's no indication when you're just looking [TS]

  at it and that's what you would do great and that in mind I create a new norm I [TS]

  guess for that and now it's instead of being the side sort of the hamburger bun [TS]

  to the side it's now wiping down to you to it [TS]

  yeah and maybe that's a playoff spot where it's not quite fair of me to say [TS]

  that it doesn't feel foreign because it is because its non-standard but I guess [TS]

  what I see is that I when I look at paper I see a way that the whole system [TS]

  could work that way right that in some alternate universe Mike Matusz is that [TS]

  still a top ones in charge of iOS four is a a lead developer and that iOS 7 [TS]

  works like this across the board and that there's you know for example [TS]

  there's no status bar all the time in facebook paper but it's there you just [TS]

  pull down at the top a little bit and then you can see it yeah and I know for [TS]

  a fact that is you know it's a stupid little thing but I know from talking to [TS]

  other designers and people who think about things like this is an awful lot [TS]

  of people who think that that's the way I always should work that the status bar [TS]

  is clutter and that you know why not just give the whole screen and you know [TS]

  show the status when you need it and how do you do it just put down you know what [TS]

  else I just realized just playing around with it right now I think they're one of [TS]

  the first ones that I can remember actually doing this in a way i think is [TS]

  correct which is that when you do so when you do you're on the main screen [TS]

  swipe down to get to sort of where you can post where your profile is that back [TS]

  you know the back of the sort of cards metaphor ya win that puts the main [TS]

  sort of card at the bottom so you can still get back there by tapping on it [TS]

  and then it just pops back up right so that's why you never get back yes but it [TS]

  is impossible to actually pull up the menu from very you know how in so many [TS]

  apps now with iOS 7 they have the poll up menu where you know where their [TS]

  flashlights and all those other things [TS]

  yeah it is actually impossible to do that at least as far as I can see right [TS]

  now to pull up the menu which is great because so many of these apps that are [TS]

  trying to be clever with sort of using new UI forget that you know there is [TS]

  already a systemwide you I to pull up that that menu right and somehow assume [TS]

  you can do this in this setting paper has figured out like if we put this this [TS]

  card at the bottom and ask people to go back to it a lot of times they're gonna [TS]

  end up pulling up the the settings menu and we don't want them to do that so [TS]

  it's disabled and so there is no way to do that which is great because I'm [TS]

  always afraid now whenever I'm touching something at the bottom of the screen [TS]

  that I'm going to pull up that many oh yeah I know exactly what you mean I [TS]

  think it's tricky to win the keyboard is visible and it feels I could be wrong it [TS]

  could just be that I've gotten better at it but I'm running the Iowa 7.1 betas on [TS]

  my phone and it feels as though they've in the last batter to they've gotten [TS]

  better at [TS]

  system wide when you when you want to bring up to call the control center [TS]

  you're talking about it [TS]

  previously when the keyboard was up every time I tried it I get a space I [TS]

  just hit the key and they've gotten something they figured out some way of [TS]

  doing it now wernicke boards visible you can bring that up too tricky thing and I [TS]

  agree that yeah I know exactly where talk about papers like you more or less [TS]

  pushed the whole regular interface down regular interface training you were [TS]

  browsing through the content in your feed you push that down to get a sort of [TS]

  interface and it's like a transparent thing with your Facebook search it has [TS]

  your profile as create a poster is at its sections so another thing that they [TS]

  did that I think and it speaks to the thought that went into it it's like the [TS]

  Einstein quote everything should be as simple as possible but not more so than [TS]

  a decade I've looked it up over the years and maybe that's you know there's [TS]

  a lot of could be one of those things are in an even say it but that's the way [TS]

  I know that the adage that you can you know what does it mean as simple as [TS]

  possible but not more so well it's a little cute but it it means don't take [TS]

  an idea too far and as an example it's ok so they've gotten rid of a lot of [TS]

  buttons in the navigation that you don't go back you just push it down and it [TS]

  closes but they don't have any kind of we're not gonna have any buttons at all [TS]

  and we're going to figure out a way to do this with no buns where it makes [TS]

  sense to just have a button they have a bun like that like when you write a post [TS]

  you just start typing and then there's a button that says post and it's you know [TS]

  super obvious there's no cutesy way of somehow you know posting without [TS]

  actually having a post but yeah yeah I think that's right they have they have [TS]

  the minimal amount of buttons you would need to do what you want to do [TS]

  yeah they have a super cool thing and when you go into the settings that [TS]

  you know and it uses of once you're in the settings for Facebook paper is a [TS]

  very standard iOS metaphor where there's a list and you tap an item in it you [TS]

  know those left to right and navigation stack you know goes the same way that I [TS]

  wait you're familiar with and I think it's exactly right words they're trying [TS]

  to get real clever and do something original there they do it but they do a [TS]

  really cool thing with the animation in the at the top of the screen where there [TS]

  is actually a back button when you're in the settings but if you swipe it it's [TS]

  like the back button thing unlike Iowa seven standard navigation it doesn't [TS]

  just paid from one to another [TS]

  it like shoots lozeau rubberband pushed it yeah really really and honestly it's [TS]

  better than I wish that that was Iowa seven standard yet everything sort of [TS]

  cascades in yeah yeah exactly it's like a cascade animation like almost like a [TS]

  wave I don't know how you call it but it's it's making a board here but it's [TS]

  very physically to succeed physical physical I guess it's just physical but [TS]

  it's it's like physics as theirs and I again that's a little thing and it is [TS]

  not that is not a standard animation from iOS that is something that they [TS]

  worked on themselves [TS]

  there's an awful lot of so did you get a sense from him did he talk at all are [TS]

  they going to open source any of the stuff for other sort of iOS developers [TS]

  to use you know I didn't ask I don't know I don't think so that would be [TS]

  great but yeah I don't think so although they did you know they have the tools [TS]

  the the metal layer on top of course compositor that they're using [TS]

  composer it's right or origami I forget if its courts compositor composer [TS]

  whichever one it is I always get strong so it's whatever composer composer [TS]

  I think the telling thing about that that's interesting [TS]

  I think the telling thing about that that's interesting [TS]

  as it does you know someone who works in and try to think about design and stuff [TS]

  is that it matters has been using Quartz Composer for a long time for his mark [TS]

  ups and stuff and and I spoke about this before but like he showed me work with [TS]

  crisp up press for it came out and he was showing me the development version [TS]

  of it where they they had like in the beta versions are the in house versions [TS]

  there was an extra layer of settings where there were sliders for all the [TS]

  variables in the physics engine and so instead of like a programmer typing into [TS]

  Xcode that gravity for bringing down a picture to close it is at point seven [TS]

  eight and then you compile and build and install based on your phone you play [TS]

  around with it and and Mike would say you know what [TS]

  try like pointed five and then compile it and build it he had sliders for all [TS]

  of those things and he could sit there and you know drag these little sliders [TS]

  and adjust things and make you know make pictures really and you know i i got to [TS]

  play with it when the with those settings enable make things like photos [TS]

  feel heavier or lighter and it was very very you know it was very tactile where [TS]

  it really did feel like well thats heavier well thats lighter and I think [TS]

  the idea is that you can't really design with this modern sense of Physics driven [TS]

  interaction [TS]

  without actually having design tools that are not just animated but you know [TS]

  that that you can tweak all sorts of variables and I think that they're going [TS]

  with origami when you're not you cannot you can't create things like this in [TS]

  Photoshop and just have here's the one here's the start frame here's the end [TS]

  frame and in between it and you know yeah and it's it's cuz I like you you're [TS]

  forcing your brain disorder shift between two different processes right [TS]

  Blake you're going from a very sort of numbers driven analytical process by [TS]

  typing in like pointed 7 like you're doing math vs designing you know I think [TS]

  its equivalent of sculpture where you're working you know it's like having [TS]

  claimed your hands and being able to hold it with your hands as opposed to [TS]

  defining you know mathematically the shape of this culture what do you think [TS]

  about the the photo element where your tilting too you know sort of look at the [TS]

  panoramic mode they call it I think I don't know if this is public or 90 [TS]

  internally they call it can turns the can turn the fact that's good I think [TS]

  it's brilliant I think it is really really [TS]

  I think it's it works it is so super effective and I think you know it's [TS]

  always say like you you know first is the original the second is a rip off and [TS]

  the third it's a standard so somebody's gonna rip it off and then everybody's [TS]

  gonna say hey they ripped off the counters effect from facebook paper and [TS]

  then two or three other apps gonna come out that use it and it's everybody's you [TS]

  know we should always remember that they did at first but it's i think it's gonna [TS]

  become a standard so the ideas if you haven't if your other you listen you [TS]

  haven't seen paper used it to open a photo they open it so that it always [TS]

  fills the screen and so if it's like a plan and it's even most knows what you [TS]

  think of a panoramic photo if you take a panoramic photos with your iPhone which [TS]

  way wider than it is talk that opens at full height on your phone and then to [TS]

  see the rest of it you just hold your phone in front of you and you can either [TS]

  twist it or you can actually like rotate your body and photos [TS]

  panda long as you move its Brian I think it works so well and it's just like it [TS]

  basically turns the phone screen is a Windows sort of into a picture yes yes [TS]

  and it is you know so we you know we sit at our desks and we have things like 27 [TS]

  inch iMac sir [TS]

  21 inch iMacs or cinema displays or even on a Macbook you know who we have retina [TS]

  displays on MacBook Pros now with incredible pixel counts and compared to [TS]

  a phone a big-screen I think this can turn things for how do you view [TS]

  something that you really do want big like a photo how do you view it on a [TS]

  little four-inch screen I think it's it's the best solution anybody's come up [TS]

  with it [TS]

  here's one thing and so the name they they said that they started with the Ken [TS]

  Burns effect where they would open the photo at that size and then it is [TS]

  automatically move yeah and they said the problem was that they realized was a [TS]

  lot of times you know the most interesting part of the photo maybe it [TS]

  was at the beginning it's at the left edge and then it already runs past like [TS]

  if you want to go back and you have to wait for the animation or you have to [TS]

  wipe it right and then the main problem so this is this is what shows to me [TS]

  which is which i think is pretty genius which is that normally so even right now [TS]

  if you open up a panoramic picture if you if you open it on your phone [TS]

  sort of in landscape mode or horizontal mode it will it will be so small and so [TS]

  you'll want to do man right but to see them the rest of the photo you have to [TS]

  take your thumb and like sort of push and so that's like putting your thumb in [TS]

  between which are trying to look at where is this totally removes it cause [TS]

  you never have to use your thumb well exactly so you're not covering the photo [TS]

  with your fat ugly and it just gets back to what I said before they've already [TS]

  assigned swiping left and right to going to the next [TS]

  yes that's right to navigation and it does that in summing right now are [TS]

  trying to do you know to get to the other party so just because that has [TS]

  previously been the norm right now they're just swiping to you know the [TS]

  next story in being like right different and if it's a to me it's just a genius [TS]

  and it's you know [TS]

  it's so easy to overlook how much thought went into that you know and [TS]

  again it's it would be the wrong solution but it you know the things that [TS]

  would be easier to think of you know and that it's simple little mind like mine [TS]

  would think would be well put two fingers on the screen and swipe left [TS]

  right to pan the photo and one finger is still just Godin extra forward but [TS]

  people don't think like that two fingers on screen to go to do it is terrible [TS]

  you know this you know using why don't we use the accelerometer and gyroscope [TS]

  it's really great idea I really can then they have you know whether their little [TS]

  things like the autoplay of the videos like normal people hate that and I'm one [TS]

  of those people who hate that but it's like win when you are in sort of full [TS]

  mode so it doesn't auto play them when you're in for the browsing mode where [TS]

  you can you know the stories are at the bottom of the screen in your sleeping [TS]

  through them but once you bring it up to full screen it does auto play it because [TS]

  it's like that's the content and you want to see it and you're just removing [TS]

  sort of a barrier to entry to see that yet [TS]

  yeah exactly really really thoughtful stuff and you know I think [TS]

  you know rightly or wrongly a lot of the discussion has been more about it as [TS]

  Hayes as an alternative way to look at Facebook but I think that you know [TS]

  interface wise it is fascinating it is you know you can teach a whole course of [TS]

  interface design based on the novel tees that they've come up within the app so I [TS]

  guess I guess the biggest complaints I would have as a as someone who does [TS]

  occasionally use Facebook I mean I'm not I certainly don't use it as much as much [TS]

  of the world does but the difference between the regular sort of standard [TS]

  Facebook app and even the website and this is that for may not even be true [TS]

  but there's something about it to me that makes it feel like there is much [TS]

  less content so it's much more shallow and maybe that's on purpose maybe it's [TS]

  sort of making Facebook less overwhelming because maybe it is too [TS]

  overwhelming now because everyone has sort of a thousand friends on it even [TS]

  though you're probably not really friends with thousand people and so [TS]

  maybe they're doing some smart things and maybe I just haven't played around [TS]

  with it enough to know like that they're serving up really what is the best of of [TS]

  the content that I should see but I do get the sense that there's just like [TS]

  much less content and maybe it's because the cards are sort of at the bottom and [TS]

  they're they're sort of you know you can get you get basically to a little bit [TS]

  more into one sort of screen and so it takes quite a bit of swiping to get [TS]

  through to what you used to be able to get through in less sweeping up and down [TS]

  yeah I don't think it's not a good interface more or less it's probably not [TS]

  a good interface for going through a ton of stuff yeah right because you have to [TS]

  go left right and their minimum size is sort of a thumb now so [TS]

  you can't just scroll through tightest off its not I guess it's you know I [TS]

  don't know I i think thats I don't think it's ever going to replace the regular [TS]

  Facebook interface I don't think it could but I think it's an interesting [TS]

  alternative for some people and maybe so that some people people who are turned [TS]

  off by the existing regular Facebook interface and what it promotes in terms [TS]

  of you know behavior and how many people you friend etc it's a way for more [TS]

  people to want to use Facebook I think I'm probably but I don't think I really [TS]

  do and it's almost like I just don't want to it's like i don't think it's [TS]

  stupid to me to just say I want to stick to this you know it's too arbitrary for [TS]

  me to say you know what I want I am I going to sign up for just because I want [TS]

  to be able to always say I never signed up for Facebook but I think my idea is [TS]

  sign up i dont wanna you are still on his facebook anywhere else [TS]

  only deal might the only way I'll use Facebook is through paper I'm not I [TS]

  don't ever I can't have actually tried you can't create an account using paper [TS]

  so I would have to go but then after I do that I'm never going to never going [TS]

  to use anywhere else and said well it will you start where you start coughing [TS]

  in with Facebook them will use that aspect of it too I imagine that must be [TS]

  a pain for you know because I don't know that there's anything I've ever wanted [TS]

  to use that only offers Facebook there are I feel like that's less of an issue [TS]

  now like a year ago or two years ago that was an issue there would be like i [TS]

  remember i was you know sort of looking at her or sort of testing out many [TS]

  different apps that would have facebook only and that was the number one [TS]

  complaint of course yeah you know at least email that doesn't seem to be an [TS]

  issue anymore we actually did a lot i mean it's it's not really wasn't [TS]

  scientific but at four Vesper and for the eventual sinking thing that we're [TS]

  working on [TS]

  we thought about what should we have our own login system or should we use [TS]

  Twitter should we use Facebook as we do both and there's a lot of it solves a [TS]

  lot of problems using existing identity like that but we did is it is asked like [TS]

  real people are wives and friends and people who want to developers and very [TS]

  very quickly got a lot of you know came very very clear that normal people don't [TS]

  like using that and it's because they don't trust that whatever out there [TS]

  often is gonna post to their to their board or to their Twitter and they just [TS]

  don't like it and they don't want and they don't want Facebook or Twitter [TS]

  knowing what other apps that use they just they just don't you know normal [TS]

  people not like nerds not privacy experts just normal people have a sense [TS]

  just a common sense like aversion to letting these big companies know [TS]

  everything they do and they don't like it they really don't and that they also [TS]

  know intuitively that if your ideas just your email address that nobody knows you [TS]

  know you know that right the email provider isn't right care about right [TS]

  that they're not seeing can't that mean they can't even really it's just the way [TS]

  that they can get access to your email address isn't really a system it's just [TS]

  a unique strengths just by the way that you know domain names work that there's [TS]

  one user name at domain that can exist and it's just a unique identifier not a [TS]

  unique identity and you know and it's CNN that gets down to do do you know do [TS]

  it as an option and then it's you know it's a question of how do you make [TS]

  people choose but I i dont know and I and it seems to me the trend I've been [TS]

  looking at it thinking about it for a best-before wide seems to me like more [TS]

  services going forward are only offering things like Facebook and Twitter off as [TS]

  an option not as the right way [TS]

  well yeah I guess the obvious upside is one button and you're done right rather [TS]

  than typing in facebook is the first our Facebook paper is that really the first [TS]

  time that I've needed a Facebook account to use it and it's because it actually [TS]

  you know very specifically I mean to the third sponsor there's another angle to [TS]

  Facebook paper we can talk about which is the shortest sections the content [TS]

  sections but our third sponsor is our good friends at fracture fracture is the [TS]

  photo printing service they print your photo directly onto a piece of glass you [TS]

  have to see it to believe it but it really is a very different visual effect [TS]

  that piece of paper behind glass and frame two piece of glass with the paper [TS]

  printed on it it's almost like if you're old enough to remember when people used [TS]

  to shoot slides it's like having a piece of glass that the slide of your photo [TS]

  and there's a certain vibrancy to it and it's also it's a lot like with with the [TS]

  iPhone and stuff where it's just closer to the surface of the glass and it's [TS]

  just a great effect they come in all sorts of sizes from very small to very [TS]

  big and they ship it in these ingenious containers where it's if you want to [TS]

  hang on a wall you can hang on the wall [TS]

  you want to put it on your desk you can put it on your desk it's like a frame [TS]

  and a desk stan on one really have to see it to believe it makes a great gift [TS]

  for the Wii my wife and I made a bunch of these four people for Christmas [TS]

  in the family and its huge hit also raises soon as people see it they can [TS]

  see there's something different about it and they're like how did you do this [TS]

  where did you get this [TS]

  people love him and I have coupon code you get 10% off any order that coupon [TS]

  code is the talk show love that because it's to meet the ones used at the end [TS]

  there they're the ones who actually listen to the show where to go to find [TS]

  out more [TS]

  their website is fracture mean dot com and I believe you can also just go to [TS]

  fracture done typing in right now you can go to fracture . me or fracture [TS] learn more [TS]

  they have a great video you get to see it and it kind of shows off just how [TS]

  different it is see the sizes and prices are prices and get started and remember [TS]

  that code the talk show and you'll save 10% so go check them out to great [TS]

  service so here's the other thing with Facebook paper its us-only not just [TS]

  iphoneonly jus only and and the reason for that is because of the the content [TS]

  sections they have where it's not just your regular Facebook feed [TS]

  they have sections for things like tack and sports and news I think cities and [TS]

  they're not scraping those its not just like they're scraping RSS feeds and [TS]

  showing whatever they want they've got partnerships with content providers and [TS]

  I more or less I think that's why it's us-only for now because [TS]

  it's like you know you go there and I know a lot of people have compared [TS]

  Facebook paper to Flipboard but I don't you think that their dad direct [TS]

  competitor I think it's because some of the animations are a little similar that [TS]

  people think that yeah and I mean that's sort of what I was getting at the very [TS]

  beginning where it almost feels like this this is the part to me that feels [TS]

  sort of like a response to Twitter it's because twitter is a place you go to get [TS]

  news right now writes like where a lot of people actually find links for the [TS]

  first time find links about News breakingNews happening in facebook now [TS]

  with this with these sections are as you said sort of making partnerships with [TS]

  the actual news organizations to make this actual newsreader well I didn't [TS]

  think about that as a response to Twitter but maybe you're right though [TS]

  that it kind of is in terms of that you go to this app for news but that you're [TS]

  not expecting it to come from your follower your friends [TS]

  it's about this sort of yeah cultivation that's a that's a good point because [TS]

  it's more along the lines of like Twitter if you only followed the actual [TS]

  news sources right rather than rather than your friends he felt the account of [TS]

  New York Times and Washington Post and and whoever else if you use Twitter that [TS]

  way which some people do I think use or at least have you know our users of [TS]

  course have separate sort of Twitter screens set up with just sorta breaking [TS]

  news alerts on on different items [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  I don't know you know and I do I do something where I just don't know [TS]

  whether I'm not a Facebook user I don't know how much sense that makes to [TS]

  integrate these two things you know it's i cant i feel like i cant judges yea or [TS]

  nay [TS]

  what do you think here you you say you're using on your phone are you using [TS]

  the you know it's it's interesting I am using it and I as i said i have have [TS]

  replaced its I've replaced the Facebook out at the regular appt with with paper [TS]

  and its greats as for other reasons we just have talked about an elaborated on [TS]

  but I'm not really using the the certain news sections I don't know why it does [TS]

  feel a little bit foreign to me because I I am sort of thinking about this is a [TS]

  facebook replacement even though I know that's not you know sort of the only [TS]

  mentality you're supposed to be going into this thinking about and you are [TS]

  supposed to be sort of focused on these different sections were you can read [TS]

  about news but I don't know I just don't use it that way and I'm never compelled [TS]

  to sort of open up paper to be able to get to the latest Wall Street Journal [TS]

  story and I don't know if that's because I'm heavy Twitter user and I still like [TS]

  I will have already seen it on Twitter I guess maybe that's what it comes down to [TS]

  the fact that I use Twitter [TS]

  you know [TS]

  must be 10 to 20 x more times a day that i use facebook and so I'm already [TS]

  getting my news from from Twitter and so I am just not in the raid sort of mode [TS]

  to go into this paper apps assertive read about things right now I don't know [TS]

  maybe I'm different maybe you know 1.2 billion people who use Facebook so you [TS]

  know it might be an interesting way to just wrap up the show and is is sort of [TS]

  thought about before but now you've got me thinking about Twitter vs Facebook [TS]

  overall and and in it you know they're not the same thing but there clearly are [TS]

  rivals and Facebook clearly has way more people and yes it's like 11 points to [TS]

  something billion to about two hundred and some millions and the somebody [TS]

  somebody pointed out the other day they planted I saw it on Twitter that [TS]

  Facebook like last quarter grew by a third even though there are bigger group [TS]

  by a faster percentage than Twitter I saw that I think there was Dustin Curtis [TS]

  Yeah Yeah right [TS]

  lie you know you can't watch TV without seeing hashtags on the screen right and [TS]

  the hashtags are clearly I mean you can use of Instagram but when people do but [TS]

  clearly it's about tweets yes and you know there is no Facebook equivalent to [TS]

  that that you know just watching anything stupid show or sports or the [TS]

  Super Bowl or anything [TS]

  there's hashtags on-screen commercials have hash tags right and it's all a [TS]

  Twitter and so Facebook has tried to do this you know they've they've they've [TS]

  integrated hashtags as a feature now you know sort of copying the notion it still [TS]

  doesn't seem like it's taken off at all certainly not in the fields of anyone [TS]

  that I'm friends with organic follow on Facebook and I think that's what we're [TS]

  sort of we were talking about earlier where Facebook is sort of talking to [TS]

  celebrities and influencers about using facebook during the Super Bowl [TS]

  and it's just I don't know it's meets it seems very unnatural it's it's I don't [TS]

  think it's going to be used that way [TS]

  Facebook is what it is and and Twitter is what it is and it's it's especially [TS]

  hard to change something that 1.2 billion people are already using for a [TS]

  reason and that reason is not to talk about the Super Bowl or at least not to [TS]

  sort of talked about in real time with the same sort of speed that people do on [TS]

  Twitter I don't know I'm not so sure that that's like a great idea for them [TS]

  to try to squeeze these things into to this end for me what this what this [TS]

  boils down to is both of these companies are not public companies Twitter of [TS]

  course just went public in a few months ago and so what this all boils down to [TS]

  especially with regard to television is trying to get advertisers on board and [TS]

  trying to monetize this and so you can make the argument that while I think [TS]

  through Twitter had the first earnings and they beat the earnings rest of [TS]

  estimates but their user numbers were sort of the cause for concern there but [TS]

  that's sort of also points to the fact that I think Twitter actually has and [TS]

  you can make a case will be easier to monetize is because it's sort of this [TS]

  site guys that people use during all of these major events like whether it's the [TS]

  Super Bowl whether it's now the Olympics and there's like a very direct you know [TS]

  sort of advertising nut to crack I don't think they have cracked it yet but I [TS]

  think that there is a way to do that much so much more so than with Facebook [TS]

  even though Facebook has so many more users and I had drained strained analogy [TS]

  and it's not gonna whole lot of water but it's a little bit like iOS to [TS]

  Android where Android has more people but iOS is easier to monetize you know [TS]

  that it's that yeah yeah yeah I think that it's that works and you know and [TS]

  the other thing I see on TV I see sports well I you know what news too I don't [TS]

  watch [TS]

  I was very little TV news but I do watch sports and you know it [TS]

  ubiquitous almost that you know the commentators they'll they'll put their [TS]

  twitter names up right now I see it when I actually sports sports is like the [TS]

  greatest example of that it's all over town sports center there are every [TS]

  single person has their Twitter handle right there is no Facebook equivalent of [TS]

  the right and you know when I do I should you know what I was trying to [TS]

  think about how do I know this about TV news I know how I know what I know cuz i [TS]

  watch The Daily Show and The Daily Show chose me the clips I need to see of we [TS]

  know Fox and CNN and MSNBC and they do it too when a show you the clips of you [TS]

  know whatever they're making fun of on The Daily Show on on these news channels [TS]

  everybody gets introduced with their name and then underneath it at you know [TS]

  whatever their Twitter handle is it if I were to Twitter if I'm dich Kuss Kustom [TS]

  oh I I'm very happy about that because they are getting free advertising but [TS]

  it's not just it's not just advertising know it it it's like it's a way of [TS]

  entering the culture culture mindshare right its cultural mindshare you know [TS]

  it's it's like being coca-cola you know that it's just huge that you know and [TS]

  that people know this you know that you go there and it just you go on TV and [TS]

  it'll say MCN at side and you know what that means right you know you go on and [TS]

  it just says at Paris lemon under your name on TV and people know that you know [TS]

  if they wanna see you on Twitter though you know just search for that name on [TS]

  Twitter it's it's really and that's that's interesting when you when you [TS]

  think about it compared to Facebook where Facebook you know for a long time [TS]

  their strength was this real names right like everyone was going to be their [TS]

  actual selves on this service [TS]

  the problem was like in the beginning [TS]

  know if you even knows it's not being a Facebook user but they used to not even [TS]

  have like an actual like / username no I didn't know that I didn't know that [TS]

  it was a string of numbers like I like 16 numbers and sort of crazy now they [TS]

  have of course manatee URLs but it's still it's still that that hasn't [TS]

  translated though like I actually have / Paris lemon on Facebook and you can get [TS]

  to me that way but like what would I put on it with someone put on television [TS]

  screen if like you were doing that man is it just / could you do that no one [TS]

  would know what that is right it it is kind of a lack of a better word gross to [TS]

  me like as somebody who's been a long time Mac user and always objected to [TS]

  filename extensions in general not just three-letter ones but just the whole [TS]

  idea because I like we had a more elegant system in the eighties and [TS]

  nineties on the Mac we didn't need file extensions period the name of the file [TS]

  was just a name with upper and lower case letters and spaces just put a space [TS]

  in the name you know like things in the real world and all the other computer [TS]

  systems in a UNIX of course of course a loud spaces but you know worst idea in [TS]

  the world like backslash escape them you know the command line and see me the you [TS]

  know using a punctuation character like that and see me with hashtags like to me [TS]

  has takes our gross design wise but I do have to admit as they've gone on to [TS]

  become part of the culture and there's no other way to do it like to me like [TS]

  tags [TS]

  you know I can tax investment there's no advantage using hashtags invest because [TS]

  it's not shared not public so tags investor are just like old school Mac [TS]

  filings you just type whatever you want upper and lower case with spaces and its [TS]

  English and it looks nice and it's readable [TS]

  but I totally understand how on a social network that the hashtag thing is genius [TS]

  because you can put it on screen and people know what it means and there's no [TS]

  explanation and doesn't just bang whatever and there it is right because [TS]

  you could argue that like in you know in our ever increasing capabilities [TS]

  computationally like you should be able to say interest status message in it [TS]

  sees like the Olympics and it should be able to know that the Olympics you're [TS]

  talking about is the same that you know a million other people are talking about [TS]

  and so there should be no sort of the away [TS]

  ABC radically to sort of link those together but how would you convey that [TS]

  until there would be no way and you can you know and it shows up and all other [TS]

  put you know billboards and stuff like that just hash tag whatever or user [TS]

  names you know it's it's really you know effectively it's been genius and you [TS]

  know and it's funny to that neither of those things came from Twitter that is [TS]

  right that users and Chris Messina you know definitely I mean we do we know [TS]

  that he more or less invented the hashtag not as a Twitter employee just [TS]

  as Twitter user it's just like total company building culture changing idea [TS]

  they just like said hey I think what what if we just used as tags shines and [TS]

  tag names after the hashtag to group tweets and the odd thing i think is a [TS]

  little bit murkier in terms of last time I saw anybody try to figure out who [TS]

  started doing it but an end [TS]

  you know there was some will end it has ties to email yeah and and Flickr people [TS]

  were doing it on Flickr where they were in the comments section you know it was [TS]

  it was a thing where if there's like 14 comment on a photo and you wanted reply [TS]

  to the seventh commenter you type at their username and then space [TS]

  make meaning you were directing it at them to remember when the there was wind [TS]

  sort of the location services like Foursquare and go on stuff started [TS]

  gaining popularity was like it's super head that like the the at symbol has [TS]

  already been sort of taken by using it to direct message at someone rather than [TS]

  it being an actual location right you know would arguably make more sense yeah [TS]

  it definitely will well and then the email that sense that's what it meant it [TS]

  was you know if you were named John at daring fireball dotnet its mean you know [TS]

  means I John is me at this server [TS]

  you know it kinda makes in the Twitter sense it doesn't accept when you think [TS]

  about the fact that the reply is supposed to be at right there's like I [TS]

  guess semantically the at is different than the username the ad is saying this [TS]

  is at this person Gruber is really my twitter handle but it's just visually [TS]

  it's just become you know at grouper is now my twitter handle and it's a funny [TS]

  way to to kind of take the use of these characters that are on everybody's [TS]

  keyboard that we're kind of underused at was really mean don't do anyway I ever [TS]

  saw anything used the at symbol in my entire life before email was like a [TS]

  grocery store where they would say like to at one dollar or something like that [TS]

  just because it's shorter right it was all you know is almost like why in the [TS]

  world do we have these that bad especially on her keyboard how to the [TS]

  world that become a standard thing on everybody's keyboard but then gmail made [TS]

  great use of it and then you know in this user name scenario it's become [TS]

  great and then numbers I guess everybody uses a flight number one number two [TS]

  but you know it's it's somehow works and it's a thing it looks geeky but [TS]

  obviously if you just go in like surf hashtags on Twitter and Instagram I mean [TS]

  millions of people use them normal people and so another one is like em [TS]

  percent to people use like it does anyone use that often is certainly in [TS]

  writing but like you ever see that being used you know again sort of emails that [TS]

  you sender or receiver people still using it as a shorthand for you know for [TS]

  and there's a very few I it's a pet peeve of mine and so every once in [TS]

  awhile like for example you know I don't have any co-writers during fireball but [TS]

  one is sponsored by weekly sponsorships come in every once in awhile whoever [TS]

  wrote the sponsored thing will use am percent instead of ants and I just [TS]

  change in plans but it's so it's not it's not rare but it's uncommon it's a [TS]

  little unusual I don't know if there could be one that gets it gets taken [TS]

  yeah I think it's there I think it's totally right to be taken [TS]

  yeah what percentage signed dollar sign that everybody knows with them and [TS]

  they're kind of you know I guess the [TS]

  the carrot carrot is maybe the only other one that you could use but the [TS]

  tilde and the back deck you know which is probably the least use key on [TS]

  anybody's keyboard but there are two they're too small you can't they're not [TS]

  visually discernible like other advantages of the at sign in the pound [TS]

  sign or hash whatever you want to call that thing is that they're so visually [TS]

  distinctive yes there they stand out there the full height and they're very [TS]

  very visually distinctive ampersand has that going for it [TS]

  aryan people people of course have use most notably I guess StockTwits is the [TS]

  one to use the money sign say that you're talking about a stock when you do [TS]

  it and I think that works its but yeah that's actually I forgot about that but [TS]

  that does work right because because in the other it doesn't collide with the [TS]

  other sense because there is no number right if ya like dollar sign followed by [TS]

  letters never had meaning before yes it actually is a good use [TS]

  that's another one that's a good counter example I thought about the other day [TS]

  actually was thinking about this with the hash symbol whether if I were [TS]

  inventing marked down today whether I would still use that it it's a way to [TS]

  indicate I don't think it collides because there's a space after it and I [TS]

  don't think that you know I think I guess I would cause I couldn't think of [TS]

  another character that I would use but you know hashtags in the system invented [TS]

  Martin and nobody's ever written me to complain about that so I'm guessing that [TS]

  it isn'ta problem why why did you how come why not use something like the at [TS]

  symbol for like a link or something like that why do it the way that it's done [TS]

  cuz its cuz I wanted it to be is visually non distracting as possible so [TS]

  that's why it's square brackets [TS]

  sounds like a show yeah alright MGC where thank you very much free time of [TS]

  course and people can catch you at Paris lemon stakes it has taken but you do [TS]

  have a username and Paris Paris I'll talk to some [TS]