The Talk Show

64: One Star


  I almost lost my mouth almost lost my fingertips yesterday because I decided [TS]

  to run with insufficient glove where PostID literally thinking about a mile [TS]

  and a half from my home I should have gotten that computer programmer [TS]

  fingertip insurance I had a lot of problems writing now that finger injury [TS]

  two years ago just one bad finger and a smaller I think you're kind of post here [TS]

  become an expert in speech recognition systems in a hurry [TS]

  definitely although I think I never really thought about it but it's got to [TS]

  be the worst the worst use case for voice recognition has got to be writing [TS]

  computer code I would think so you know the person asked about that is John [TS]

  Siracusa right then he doesn't have any listens to the one to ask that cuz I [TS]

  know uses it for his is writing you know like those mega does massive Mac OS 10 [TS]

  reviews he dictates all of those which is amazing to me because I couldn't no I [TS]

  don't think I could either i mean it's it falls into the same category for me [TS]

  as not being able to type on a night not be able to type seriously on an iPad [TS]

  because it's not the same capacity that I have on a regular keyboard says says [TS]

  who both have weekly podcast I am i right to me and my my opinion i right [TS]

  way more eloquently than I speak and I i should not have a podcast an interesting [TS]

  it's an interesting angle there is an end yet here yet right here we are [TS]

  saying we basically can't express ourselves as fluidly or as elegantly [TS]

  with just not as you know [TS]

  part of it you know I've said this before too it's like my typing speed is [TS]

  as fast as I can think and you might get some people might say why you must know [TS]

  by the standards of somebody who's spent as many hours community over the last 25 [TS]

  years [TS]

  keyboard as I have I should be a far better typist but I'm not because [TS]

  there's I don't think there's ever any motivation to type faster than you can [TS]

  think unless you take some kind of secretarial job which I've never had [TS]

  never had like a job for you [TS]

  transcripts or retype stuff so I mean how would anybody ever have a motivation [TS]

  to type faster than they can thank right must you just so I guess you could you [TS]

  could argue that stream of consciousness writing or something is faster than [TS]

  thinking but I can I can talk for faster than I can think that's why you stay in [TS]

  your home most the drive into trouble [TS]

  idea out there knows maybe someone come in you know what bothered me for years [TS]

  now you've got a podcast you've been doing to podcast yeah yeah yeah [TS]

  cast on hiatus and the podcast with Manton Ruiz core intuition which we have [TS]

  been keeping up a bit splitting one you've put on hiatus how many episodes [TS]

  is getting ten episodes so that was kind of a nice round number and I wasn't sure [TS]

  what was going on hiatus Intel like the moment there and i was just like oh you [TS]

  don't feel really good [TS]

  not having you know the load of another episode next week or whatever so it's [TS]

  been feeling good I've been missing it but I've been gratified by some you know [TS]

  faithful listeners who are missing it but it's the kind of thing where it's [TS]

  it's it's it's a tough format is well-suited to be able to take breaks [TS]

  you should think about [TS]

  but my wife Amy and pakistan vs did with their show and and maybe we'll continue [TS]

  to do is that they thought of it as a seasoned yeah and I think that they were [TS]

  originally gonna do tend but they did 13 because it was going well and that [TS]

  sponsors lined up so yeah why not [TS]

  13 you know is a reasonable season like that then there's a break you know you [TS]

  have to really did like proper editing and stuff like that i mean they would [TS]

  record for like two hours to get a half-hour show right yeah and you know a [TS]

  lot of beloved TV's shows it's not like they say even necessarily win the next [TS]

  season is gonna latest you know eventually say yet we got another [TS]

  surprise was like that right now I kept you know give it a year to maybe [TS]

  something will come out sort of got me then I don't think quite as bad as The [TS]

  Sopranos gun I mean I and I just mean bad as a fan because you you know you [TS]

  like the show you wanted that season as quick as possible I don't think it was [TS]

  any kind of laziness or sloth on the part of you know david mason the [TS]

  producers and it was that's how long it takes to write that quality of material [TS]

  for 1300 13 hours of that quality and to line up all of you know acting talent [TS]

  great creative talent to make it happen that it can't happen you can't do it you [TS]

  know every year and a side effect of that is it sort of exudes quality that [TS]

  that subconsciously that idea that this thing isn't like all the other shows [TS]

  right doesn't come out on some nobody had to like you know higher like illegal [TS]

  immigrants to finish this shot so let me just say this year I've been thinking [TS]

  about this for years many years all the way back to the first runs of the talk [TS]

  show with with Dan what's the biggest problem with podcasts in general I have [TS]

  one specific group and it applies to almost every podcast I'm aware and it's [TS]

  the lack of transcripts [TS]

  couple of reasons one for me selfishly wouldn't it be great to just have a [TS]

  searchable archive of of all this shows that I've done so that I find no in the [TS]

  back of my head Jesus I had remembered it was on the show couple months ago we [TS]

  were talking about you know whatever topic what the hell did we say yeah [TS]

  whereas you know there's there's no way to get that you know if I open up a six [TS]

  month old episode of the talk show even if I know that this is the episode I [TS]

  can't you know how do I don't remember it was at the forty five-minute mark of [TS]

  the 20 minute mark of the hour and 20 minute mark when whatever came up [TS]

  transcripts with all that and then the other big thing would be huda Google [TS]

  searchable by everybody else not just me and thirdly it has to be liked by [TS]

  definition it's a huge accessibility issues right anybody who has a hearing [TS]

  impairment cannot enjoy the show [TS]

  that's true but it seems like there are you know every time I think of it and [TS]

  they gather to get the itch to look into it there doesn't seem to be any kind of [TS]

  like turnkey solution yeah it seems like the kind of thing where you could say [TS]

  naively that you should be able to just point dragon dictator something at it [TS]

  and let you know it's not the case any other big problem with that wouldn't [TS]

  wouldn't even if that worked [TS]

  accurately enough to be good enough how a Dragon Dictate be able to tell our [TS]

  voices apart you know know which was mean which was you yeah yeah that's a [TS]

  challenge and I you know some people have tackled this I think Rene Ritchie [TS]

  among his many other projects has tackled transcripts and I think he may [TS]

  just be tuning it all himself I'm not sure but seems like I've also heard some [TS]

  other people though enlist you know super fans to do [TS]

  transcripts on behalf of the show a weird to me when it's like a commercial [TS]

  enterprise enlisting [TS]

  donated labor but you know that's something I agree with you it would be [TS]

  and and there's a sense it's in some ways it's positive but in many ways at [TS]

  stake if there's a sense that all this stuff that happens on podcast teen is [TS]

  kind of ephemeral like radio even though it's permanently recorded just as just [TS]

  as well as blog posts or articles are you would it wouldn't be that way as as [TS]

  much or even maybe at all if there were an accurate trans trans yeah it's not [TS]

  you know it's it's like more ephemeral and maybe every single word is of less [TS]

  value you know that if if we like I just right there three seconds ago said you [TS]

  know I know is verbal tic I have obviously 98% of the times I say you [TS]

  know on the show [TS]

  shouldn't could be edited out it would be if it were written article instead of [TS]

  off the cuff talks yet but there's always do you know every show and it's [TS]

  worth listening to i mean the whole point of what makes it worth listening [TS]

  to is just got to be something worth remembering about it right [TS]

  yeah absolutely so I here's the thing I was thinking about it and I know some [TS]

  people have done some things I know Andy Baio had a project where the handle it [TS]

  was four but a couple years ago had a whole bunch of audio that he wanted [TS]

  transcribed and he just threw it at Amazon's Mechanical Turk but that [TS]

  wouldn't and it was really relatively cost-effective was relatively [TS]

  inexpensive to get the people who do participate in that you know to do it [TS]

  but I don't think it would work for the show because I think you'd need somebody [TS]

  it couldn't just be anybody like any any person anywhere in the world who happens [TS]

  to speak English you know speak English well enough to transcribe it like you to [TS]

  do it right you day you need to know the guests on the show cause I feel like if [TS]

  somebody in a foreign country who i think is a lot of the people who do the [TS]

  turf work as a very good possibility that everybody almost everybody I [TS]

  haven't shown they all sound alike to them right [TS]

  others yeah right and that would really screw up I don't hear it but like when I [TS]

  did the show with Dan every week at least to get comments every single week [TS]

  from people who said they cannot tell us apart [TS]

  yeah I always felt bad about it but it's like you know just made the show [TS]

  confusing try so hard to impersonate you it's really kind of weird and I feel [TS]

  like it would also help to know i mean that we talked super tech stuff but I [TS]

  mean you know it would help if you you know we start talking about some of [TS]

  these things you know that you know some of the words we use our goofy jargon [TS]

  jargon and acronyms and then like other little things like little they become [TS]

  like lovable like typecasting tix Berlin man with light turns out or something [TS]

  yeah yeah this is kind of saying turns out that the kind of thing that would [TS]

  look like a transcript in error so I'm wondering now if maybe it's just as [TS]

  simple as sort of a combination of your they have a superfan do it and combine [TS]

  that with well the show actually has good and real sponsors now and a [TS]

  reasonable no revenue stream pay them you know like I don't know you know for [TS]

  a very reasonable hourly rate you know maybe somebody out there who listens to [TS]

  the show and [TS]

  is a very fast typist and maybe would actually even enjoy doing and maybe I [TS]

  could hire them and then they would do [TS]

  transcripts every week I would I would insist upon paying for it though because [TS]

  I feel like it's got to be in a quality product that just makes everybody take [TS]

  it more seriously now the question to throw out there is always have this [TS]

  thought when it comes to the idea of a political association which again is [TS]

  also often like volunteer driven and ironically enough in seem too often be [TS]

  completely accepted by commercial software developers that they would be [TS]

  donated in that sense I might be guilty of that too but I always start with that [TS]

  something like that if I ever formalizes like to be a really ambitious [TS]

  localisation I would want to have two people for each language as a sort of [TS]

  like self correction no wonder if you would want that with transcriptions or [TS]

  if that sort of like takes away that that pride and like you know the [TS]

  respected that one person would have to be like the official archivist yeah I [TS]

  think it's sort of a different problem because with with with the localisation [TS]

  you're you're running into those from any language a converting to language be [TS]

  there is ten thousand different you know things that don't translate directly you [TS]

  know if figures of speech in English that just don't have any direct [TS]

  equivalent in whatever language or you're going to and then picking the new [TS]

  ones of you know like there's nothing like midway between casual and formal to [TS]

  translate it so do you pick the one that's a little bit more formal or the [TS]

  one that's a little bit more casual which finished with the brand and that's [TS]

  the sort of thing where if you don't speak that language it's so hard to [TS]

  judge right leg if you commissioned the Spanish localisation of Mars edit [TS]

  I don't know I mean it's like I speak just a tiny little symbol for the [TS]

  Spanish I couldn't judge whether the button to publish was using to formal to [TS]

  casual tone I wouldn't but that's that's where I would see having two eyes look [TS]

  at it would really be helpful in my cat some of those things where as a podcast [TS]

  for idiomatic English speakers and I don't I don't know what would you have [TS]

  the second person do you just read the transcript while they listen to the show [TS]

  was thinking along the same lines of like each of them does it independently [TS]

  and then compare for differences but i think thats overthinking it that's crazy [TS]

  but I think it's a good idea I think in the EU you have an audience where I [TS]

  imagine at least you know ten to twenty people right now are probably at least [TS]

  considering the possibility that they are the person to do that I wonder if I [TS]

  wonder if just talking about this will turn up any offers which are really [TS]

  crazy of just talking about something like motivated people to do something I [TS]

  thought of i mean this is but I don't know where I would put the transcripts I [TS]

  guess I could ask my friend you all to maybe add something to the custom CMS [TS]

  over there will there be like a transcript field or something like that [TS]

  or you know it seems like they'd be up to doing that but without you know [TS]

  assuming that they would in the worst case you could always just have like a [TS]

  site dedicated to it something that comes to mind is it's really great if [TS]

  you ever want to search anything about WWDC is called a ski WWDC ASCII like the [TS]

  WBC dot com and it's something I think Matt with 3 t's Thompson I think he put [TS]

  it together and it's brilliant I mean give it a look if you can right now [TS]

  because you just get to surge any word and because this makes it this makes [TS]

  sense because WWDC sessions are transcribed for accessibility purposes I [TS]

  think yes they took advantage of the presence of this transcription material [TS]

  on the videos themselves I think and so you can search anything it's only I [TS]

  think maybe 2013 sessions but pretty great and you can you can look up you [TS]

  know if you have this hunch that you heard something that session you just [TS]

  type in the word maybe sometimes you have to because it's I think it is sort [TS]

  of automated or you know transcribed by people who aren't perfect and you have [TS]

  to you know I just the stem of the word or something but pretty great so you can [TS]

  imagine Dec 2012 20 scroll down right help out with transcription so they're [TS]

  like it looks like maybe 4 2012 there were transcribed maybe 2013 yeah Apple [TS]

  did a great job transcribing the sessions for this past Abid Abid easy [TS]

  but there's tons of content in the previous year so Apple did it for 2013 [TS]

  and I guess these guys were able to scrape it yeah that's right I'm just [TS]

  grateful that this thing hasn't been shut down yet maybe we should shut down [TS]

  ever but this is probably the kind of thing where everybody who likes it [TS]

  should instantly grabbed [TS]

  curled dumping of the whole thing but this is the kind of thing you know you [TS]

  could imagine maybe not even limited to how cool would it be if if you could go [TS]

  to ASCII podcasts dot com something and then among the podcasts there is the [TS]

  talk show and you know this is bringing about I think there was some company [TS]

  that this years ago I remember in like the original podcasting boom remembers [TS]

  something that I had as I had like a search feed [TS]

  on my own name in products on this service that was trying to transcribe I [TS]

  think a bunch of the Leos which shows and stuff like that but there's some [TS]

  there's some like state of the art out there and I don't know what it is [TS]

  yeah and two is that it occurs to me that I'm you know I've been doing it [TS]

  long enough that I'm a little blinded historically because it used to be I [TS]

  mean in this was for the first couple of years there I was regularly podcasting [TS]

  it was there just wasn't a lot of sponsorship interest was really hard to [TS]

  get sponsors and and it didn't bring in much money and so I you know when we [TS]

  were thinking about how can we get transcripts before what we were thinking [TS]

  we could possibly afford to pay was a very different percentage of the overall [TS]

  income it was more or less at the time of Jesus gonna take every you know we [TS]

  have to you know just take the sponsor money and then handed over to the [TS]

  transcription service and may be nothing left over whereas that's not the case [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  yeah that's a lot of money to to put into just quote unquote just having a [TS]

  transcript you know I'm just randomly cruising around here on the web and I [TS]

  found this site podcast search service dot com and kinda looks like it could be [TS]

  trying to do this and I don't know if it's worth even mention having mentioned [TS]

  them on the arrow or not but [TS]

  it's the angle it's the same kind of angle looks like looks like a website [TS]

  from 1994 which means it might just work thing is certain to speak at our [TS]

  sponsors while I take a break here and thank our first sponsor of the show and [TS]

  it's our friends at Drobo you guys know you know that file transporter people [TS]

  are back [TS]

  Drobo all one big happy family and they have sponsored to show a few times here [TS]

  to talk about file transporter but today I want to talk to you about Drobo which [TS]

  is the service that they started with seven robo I never did a really cool [TS]

  basic idea with the Drobo is it's like a hard drive you plug in your Mac thing [TS]

  for your Mac you plug in your magazine your Mac sees it from your Mac's [TS]

  perspective just sees it as a hard drive but what it really is is a device that [TS]

  has like five slots and you can take actual drives in and out of it you [TS]

  almost treat the hard drives like floppy disk sorted and it appears here Mac as [TS]

  one big single simple drive but what you can do then is like let's just say you [TS]

  put five one terabyte drives so you've got five total gigs of storage it won't [TS]

  give you off a little do is replicate that data across those five drives of [TS]

  you put you know terabyte her to data in there it's not all like the bit for one [TS]

  file is not just written on one bit on a platter on one disc is replicated so [TS]

  that depending on the color of the desk wanted to report it [TS]

  green it's ok when a driver greener okay and you can just without turning this [TS]

  thing off without unmounting it you can just pull one of the drives which is [TS]

  crazy right now if you're using computers and hard drives long and long [TS]

  enough the idea that you could do that it sounds like a recipe for disaster [TS]

  your Mac still complains when you unplug USB key without on Mount Hood but that's [TS]

  because drove the whole Drobo idea set up the data is always replicated so why [TS]

  does it matter because then what you can do if you start running low on space as [TS]

  you just pull one of the old smaller one down and plug a bigger one in and it's [TS]

  just there you don't have to reformat you don't have to go into Disk Utility [TS]

  and manage partitions and resize in this net just plug a bigger piece of hardware [TS]

  in a bigger capacity driving there and it'll just work so they have to well [TS]

  three models for Mac users right now they've got the Drobo 5d that 25 drive [TS]

  system with thunderbolt and USB three interfaces that's the one that's really [TS]

  really fast that's the one you want if you're doing like photo and video where [TS]

  they have the Drobo five and and as for network it's a network storage system [TS]

  that can next be a Gigabit Ethernet really fast ethernet and then they also [TS]

  have a Drobo mini and that's designed for portability it's small and [TS]

  lightweight it's not as performance optimize its meant for somebody who [TS]

  needs to work in the field like maybe like a photographer somebody who's out [TS]

  in the field and wants to carry their storage partition with them to really [TS]

  easy to set up really really friendly [TS]

  just regular people you just plug it in [TS]

  the lighting system will tell you how much space is left on each drive a [TS]

  little little blue light for each one and each one is worth ten percent of the [TS]

  storage so when you start when you have a drive that starts getting filled up to [TS]

  its like 89 blue lines then you know it's time maybe to buy a big girl you [TS]

  can buy these things with no drives in no no no just get the empty you emptied [TS]

  robo and patron drives into the slots or they will sell you ones with drives and [TS]

  their drive prices are very very competitive it's not the sort of thing [TS]

  like when you buy RAM from Apple and you payroll markup for the convenience of [TS]

  having your Mac ship with maxed out RAM when you buy your drives from the Drobo [TS]

  store it I think the prices are super competitive so it's really really easy [TS]

  if you just want to get a big storage from them to just buy it with us toward [TS]

  where do you go to find out more easy go-to Drobo Dr 00 [TS] and they have a coupon code use this at the Drobo website [TS]

  talk 10 tal que 10 and I'll save 10% off any purchase and so some of these things [TS]

  you get the twenty Tara by model it's 1500 bucks will save a hundred and fifty [TS]

  bucks just by using a code serious money 250 bucks you could talk 10 thanks to [TS]

  Drobo [TS]

  I got one here they sent me one to really nice I love that idea that you [TS]

  know when they can be empty when they when they ship you an empty one I love [TS]

  the idea that it solves that like super geek problem of having 5 miscellaneous [TS]

  hard drives laying around if you just plug them in here and see what they can [TS]

  do it just creates one big pool storage it's a great them in there so many [TS]

  things you can use it for anything you need if you you know and again take a [TS]

  once every few months recommendation that if you don't regularly backup your [TS]

  Mac please please think about it get some you know by three different ways to [TS]

  back up your Mac you'd never ever regret backing up too much you could use the [TS]

  Drobo is your time machine target do it if you're not doing it already but it's [TS]

  a great way to end it like you said if you're a geek and you have a whole bunch [TS]

  drives laying around your office already too great way to put into use so what's [TS]

  nice about the whole thing with a great rate my appt yeah let's talk about it so [TS]

  we review there is a few days ago or last week I was linking I had a whole [TS]

  bunch of every once in awhile like I like to do have a whole bunch saved [TS]

  enough and I can see a pattern that connects a few of them maybe today I'll [TS]

  do all four of these sort of related and I had a whole bunch of things they were [TS]

  all tumblr sites and if they weren't on tumblr they were like tumblers and every [TS]

  just sites that people were collecting like screenshots and that's the one of [TS]

  them was like I S seven criticism or as a whole bunch of stuff in Apple's iOS 7 [TS]

  with questionable design and I was seven and any other one of them was called [TS]

  after review eff your review and all it is is a tumbler that collects [TS]

  screenshots of those dialog boxes that that's a enjoying this app take a moment [TS]

  to rate it on App Store and owners like three usually three buttons rate this [TS]

  app remind me later or no thanks [TS]

  yeah and so I linked to it and I just wrote something to the effect of that [TS]

  it's been a pet peeve of mine for a long time in a long considered encouraging [TS]

  during fireball readers to when they encounter these things to actually say [TS]

  yes if they're annoyed by design every time you see it from now and click the [TS]

  right button don't say the note don't hit the note thanks button hit the red [TS]

  button go to the App Store and leave a review of white one star and explain [TS]

  politely that it's because the app keeps badgering you to review it and that is [TS]

  sort of a typical John Gruber move because I didn't tell people you picked [TS]

  up on the UN is while I'm gonna show you picked up on it and and I didn't say [TS]

  this is what people should do it was a very [TS]

  the way that I'm a total asshole I just said I thought about doing this but by [TS]

  putting the fact that I've long thought about doing it on during fireball [TS]

  there's no tens of thousands of people who saw it and then therefore had the [TS]

  idea well and you're not naive you know that you can't protect against people [TS]

  following through with it and some people have in fact started doing yeah [TS]

  so you wrote about it and I went up today but I thought it was the other day [TS]

  when you wrote back I thought you were really really thoughtful take on this [TS]

  because you're a developer you are also in my opinion a very nice guy right most [TS]

  of the time you're sensitive and it is there's new ones here right but there it [TS]

  is weird to me know they're clearly touched a nerve there were a lot of [TS]

  people on both sides there are a lot of people on the user side who after I [TS]

  wrote that like the people who had immediately started doing it or like [TS]

  hell yeah this this stinks and I'm sickness and on the developer site point [TS]

  there are some people who got really angry at me because they're like hey it [TS]

  works this you know you need good reviews in the App Store to stand out [TS]

  and this is the only way that you get good reviews to stay competitive with [TS]

  everybody else is doing and and and then probably even more aggressive against [TS]

  you were the people who were sort of protective of developers as a class who [TS]

  were kinda like who who read into your statement as passive aggressive maybe as [TS]

  it was that you were trying to literally undermine the profitability the [TS]

  viability of small developer [TS]

  industry and that's hard to get I think that's what got my goat to start writing [TS]

  about it because it just rang very [TS]

  it felt to me like we misplaced blame it's hard not to jump to the conclusion [TS]

  that people are frustrated by the App Store in general and by the review [TS]

  system and we you know they're doing things I think it reflects is that [TS]

  customers know developers know and you know these people i'm alluding to who [TS]

  are sort of like jumping to the defense of developers in general all kinda know [TS]

  that this is a gross workaround [TS]

  dialogues I mean they are gross work around and in the context of all that [TS]

  kind of collective discussed and maybe shame on behalf of some developers it's [TS]

  like to have this kind of phenomenon when you get like called out for [TS]

  something that you kind of know is shameful you're gonna need that much [TS]

  more likely to lash out about it it's like if you if it's like if you like if [TS]

  you are crossing the street and somebody almost hits you and you get mad at them [TS]

  they're going to be like super mad at you are going to find some way to be [TS]

  like why the hell were you in the street you know and I think there's something [TS]

  to that kind of got me going like you know folks like take take take [TS]

  responsibility for your own moved here like the fact of the matter is you many [TS]

  people are stupid in my opinion to a level of behavior with the design of [TS]

  their apps that is in the aim of making more money and yes possibly in the aim [TS]

  of making the difference between viability and an otherwise for a company [TS]

  but the fact of the matter is you know there's lots of different things you can [TS]

  choose to do or not to do too to make that difference right it's it's all in [TS]

  some sense and negotiation you know and and people forget that the sum [TS]

  I don't know why it is I never forget I always think about it but there's a lot [TS]

  of people who forget that the customer gets as saying in negotiation to and I [TS]

  always thought that that's what music piracy was about to begin the days when [TS]

  it was really rampant with Napster is that the music labels were saying as the [TS]

  CD Aaron got older and older you're going to pay more and more for CDs and a [TS]

  lot of top 40 CDs are going to have fewer and fewer good songs on it you [TS]

  know and and it's not an exaggeration to say that a lot of money was made by the [TS]

  record companies [TS]

  selling 17 $18 compact discs that maybe only had two or three good songs on them [TS]

  yeah and Napster was a way for people to say you know what I think that's too [TS]

  much money how about zero and you know and ended and I'm not saying it's right [TS]

  on my justifying you know piracy of of any content but it's a negotiation at a [TS]

  way of them you know the customer saying that this stinks paying all this money [TS]

  for CDs this stinks that I want all these albums on 1 format and now have to [TS]

  pay for them [TS]

  same exact album on another format and I think that you know when the success of [TS]

  the iTunes Music Store showed that it wasn't just about people saying that [TS]

  they felt entitled to never pay a nickel for anything it was you know when you [TS]

  can only pay $0.99 it was a way of saying well yeah that's cool that's [TS]

  that's a good deal I can get in on that and you know is the right price $0.99 [TS]

  was at $1 29 where they wanted to move it and they got to eventually I don't [TS]

  know but it certainly wasn't $18 and when I see it with this is ok you can [TS]

  ask us over and over and over again to rate your ass and you know you certainly [TS]

  can ask but we collectively could if we chose to rate the app and give it a bad [TS]

  rating because you're annoying us we can do it you know and there's this weird [TS]

  entitlement that some of the backslash had were it's like how dare you ruin [TS]

  this thing that is getting us four and five star reviews right that's the thing [TS]

  that I got from a bunch of people I got it on Twitter I got an email it's [TS]

  immoral s boils down to the two-word argument it works and when I'm saying [TS]

  with this campaign is maybe you know maybe it won't work for ever using this [TS]

  music analogy I also think that you know if it was fairly subtle the fact that [TS]

  you you sort of caged it as a as a hypothetical but to any intelligent [TS]

  reader that Caijing is the sort of implicit [TS]

  you know it's a hint that this is sort of [TS]

  it's a thought experiment right and so taking your music example you could [TS]

  imagine somebody blogger in the you know free itunes days saying $18 for a CT [TS]

  well sometimes I think what would happen if I just asked each of my readers to [TS]

  make a copy of their favorite song and give it to somebody for free you know [TS]

  and that's that's fairly comparable because of differences and in particular [TS]

  like a lot of people in this case feel that if people acted on your you know [TS]

  the hypothetical advice that it would unfairly disproportionately affect [TS]

  smaller indie developers I think that was one of the one of the sort of like [TS]

  things that rankled people but you know that's it was a hypothetical and it [TS]

  feels to me i i think a lot of people it's not like they weren't they weren't [TS]

  giving first of all during fireball readers as a whole [TS]

  enough respect for sure you sure you have not not to dismiss anybody in your [TS]

  audience make sure you have a few idiots reading the blog but you know you're not [TS]

  that's not who you're writing to write it's not like a situation where you are [TS]

  getting up every day and writing for an audience of idiots will do whatever you [TS]

  allude to without thinking it through and it sent it to sort of like hold you [TS]

  accountable for standard of behavior that assumes you have thoughtless [TS]

  mindless drones who read and follow your every word I think there's something [TS]

  wrong with that too [TS]

  writer that in somehow targeting my political enemies or something right [TS]

  thing was somebody boost who is debating this with me on twitter twitter is [TS]

  talking about it being undermining businesses and I and I pointed out it [TS]

  would I i do think it would be a much different situation if you were to list [TS]

  like five or ten companies and say even theoretically sometimes I wonder what if [TS]

  I asked the users of [TS]

  AABB a nap see to give them one star you know that would be a more hostile act I [TS]

  think our our friend is a lot of nuance to explore her cable sasser you quoted [TS]

  the street but he had a very good point now [TS]

  cable its longtime co-owner panic software that the one star aspect of it [TS]

  makes him very uncomfortable right that no argument that these are these dialog [TS]

  boxes are annoying and collectively it's becoming if anything a bigger problem as [TS]

  time goes on as more apps do it and seemingly ask you more and more times [TS]

  but that the angle of my hypothetical proposal where you leave a one-star [TS]

  review is perhaps problematic because what if you otherwise love the app but [TS]

  you would just like to gently rinse gently poke the developer about this [TS]

  this issue the rate my app its yeah and so I know I've seen other people on [TS]

  Twitter like us you gave them say two stars fewer than you would have [TS]

  otherwise award so if you would have given them a five-start give them a [TS]

  three-star review and say i'd give it 5 stars if it would cease bugging me to [TS]

  rate the app which is an interesting proposal like the ones in particular [TS]

  reason [TS]

  magic and perhaps would only skew the ratings you know it just I think the [TS]

  whole five star rating thing is a bad idea anyway I almost feel like I feel [TS]

  like the whole App Store be better off if it was like a thumbs up thumbs down [TS]

  yeah absolutely and I think most more than anything what your post in the [TS]

  follow-up is done is just dry circle around the fact that this review system [TS]

  is not very good right and the combined with yeah it's a bad review system in [TS]

  general I think caused it and nobody agrees on what difference in for you [TS]

  know what what's at three stars 3 stars in the because it's in the middle of the [TS]

  five stars doesn't mean ok or three stars good for is very good in five is [TS]

  excellent in 2002 is ok you know there's no guidelines as far as I know either [TS]

  from Apple so who's to say that one star isn't the right the right rating when a [TS]

  nafta something [TS]

  that's like philosophically offensive to me like everyone so if you had a track [TS]

  you're going there to derail it too much but one thing that came to mind is it's [TS]

  it's it's an interesting problem to me because I think it's fundamentally wrong [TS]

  to Moberly interrupt a user from the course of their own self driven action [TS]

  in a nap yeah to ask them to do something in this is the key point to [TS]

  ask them to do something that is of no benefit to them right you are totally it [TS]

  is a developer's problem you are and you are distributing your solution to this [TS]

  problem and he attended the problem is how do we get more users to download our [TS]

  app that's your problem is a developer that is not the user's problem at all [TS]

  and if they paid you know it's even worse in my opinion and you're just [TS]

  taking that problem and distributing a solution across all however many users [TS]

  who have you know if you have 10,000 users you're just giving each one under [TS]

  users one ten thousand of a share of your problem [TS]

  yeah so it depending on how strongly you take that Athens it could very well be [TS]

  grounds for a one-star review but more to the point like it if people are [TS]

  saying no you should have just recommended three stars are you know two [TS]

  stars off all of this is just you know you can make a cable or anybody else [TS]

  thoughtfully make an argument that's not fair either you know today to four stars [TS]

  but you know since Apple gives no guidelines for how things should be [TS]

  rated the other thing is I just took that your suggestion in the hypothetical [TS]

  one star is the right number to choose because it makes the hypothetical [TS]

  expression of dis of the state more strongly and it doesn't mean that every [TS]

  person who has even inspired to follow up on your [TS]

  pseudo advice actually chooses to give one star right and I tend to think that [TS]

  most people whether they're being taught fall or being on thoughtful tend towards [TS]

  the extremes you know I haven't done any kind of statistical analysis but just [TS]

  eyeballing reviews seems like the most common reviews are five star if you [TS]

  really like the app and one star if you don't you feel ripped off or use you [TS]

  know famously you know and not a good practice but you know users who hit by [TS]

  bugs will often filed a bug report by leaving a one-star review and the App [TS]

  Store yeah you know but that just seems to be that it is in some ways a lot of [TS]

  people tend to use it as a thumbs up thumbs down and thumbs up as five and [TS]

  thumbs down is one and it works out you know maybe the average stand up in the [TS]

  middle for is it perfect in every way but there's one tiny little problem so [TS]

  how much did general john do you feel like you should be held accountable for [TS]

  the power that you might wield with your audience to make them to inspire them to [TS]

  do things and is that something you think about more these days I definitely [TS]

  I worry about it and is a perfect example it's no joke I've been thinking [TS]

  about this for years and there is I haven't done it before is that it out of [TS]

  fear that it would be too successful you know that too many people would leave [TS]

  one-star reviews in that it would you know i i i anybody thinks I took it [TS]

  lightly that this could actually affect the average rating of certain apps and [TS]

  that a decrease in the average rating would actually lead to a decrease in [TS]

  sales I am completely aware of that and that's I do worry about that sometimes [TS]

  yeah and it's very very hard for me I've said this before [TS]

  you know my my interface too daring fireball is literally almost exactly the [TS]

  same as it was six or seven years ago i mean you know I still have the same old [TS]

  2010 cinema display in front of me I'm sitting at the same desk i'm sitting in [TS]

  the same office I'm using well actually it's not the same keyboard but the same [TS]

  model keyboard yet it's so much of a bigger audience right and it's very [TS]

  different than like if you're like a live performer right like I have [TS]

  effectively gone from back in 2002 2003 being the equivalent of plane in like a [TS]

  local pub to playing on a daily basis [TS]

  you know before thousands of people but it doesn't look different right a stage [TS]

  performer and now all of a sudden you're no longer performing comedy in front of [TS]

  20 people at eleven o'clock at night but instead you're performing in front of [TS]

  four thousand people at the Mirage in Vegas every night it feels different [TS]

  instantly I mean to you get a big room whereas when you're a writer like I am [TS]

  here it doesn't feel that different so I definitely think about it and I [TS]

  definitely hope the most people out there being thoughtful about it but on [TS]

  the other hand I actually feel pretty died I do feel I know it sounds and this [TS]

  is the only thing to people like what's just a stupid dialog box hit a button [TS]

  and it goes away you know for a while but I do feel like collectively it's [TS]

  such a bad practice and I was saying it's a philosophical turn off and so if [TS]

  you get turned off it's the kind of thing where for example in the positive [TS]

  side of things if I can aptly use expresses you know some feature in a way [TS]

  that has a little bit of humor or like a touch of humanity that really relates to [TS]

  you than you get like a sense of like I'm kind of like simpatico with this [TS]

  like this is kind of like it's it's an emotional reaction and this kind of [TS]

  thing is emotional as well if your gonna if you're gonna have emotional [TS]

  bad things I hate to break it to folks but that's gonna lead some people to the [TS]

  the one-star zone and its at the fact that this tumblr blog exist existed that [TS]

  was called a few review and that doesn't come out of thin air that kind of that [TS]

  kind of it wasn't like you know problematic reviews . you [TS]

  know it was it was meant to be a heated rejection the whole idea I do think that [TS]

  my having written in it did uncover exact and I'm not surprised but it was [TS]

  kind of a relief because it I felt like I'm not alone where it feels like a lot [TS]

  of the response I got from users was you know hadn't thought about it but you're [TS]

  right this is annoying as hell and I see couple of those every goddamn day now [TS]

  you know it's funny I'll tell you what I was in New York last two days I was up [TS]

  for the I went to the Instagram event in New York and it was really nice and [TS]

  kevin says from the founder and his title is now that they're on Facebook [TS]

  but the boss of Instagram did a really great job I thought it was a great [TS]

  presentation but while he was doing a demo of the new face or on our Facebook [TS]

  Instagram messages while he was doing his demo Instagram gave him the like [TS]

  Instagram rate it not now and so it was clearly not part of the you know what he [TS]

  was ready for I think get to the technical reason I think I know why he [TS]

  got that alert on stage in front of the audience of the press you in so he you [TS]

  know he handle degrees like no I don't wanna ratings right now thank you very [TS]

  much [TS]

  alright let me get back to that in a moment he does do second sponsored and [TS]

  this one is great very timely as re-record say is the 13th of December [TS]

  show part be out there to fight holiday season right everybody's out there [TS]

  buying gifts and I tell you about new sponsor their name is Gemvara website is [TS]

  like gemstones Jay G Jesus GE vaara Gemvara dot com tired of being the [TS]

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  delivered in less than two weeks so order now you can get it time for the [TS]

  holidays they have a hundred and one day return policy for engraving free rein [TS]

  resizing if you get a ring and it doesn't fit that's always a trick you [TS]

  know who the hell knows what size people's friends say where they had free [TS]

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  where do you go to find out more go to their website jam vara dot com geim VA [TS]

  are no special code or anything just go to their website and and find [TS]

  some gifs says handcrafted in the USA [TS]

  Boston and New York about that there you go [TS]

  quality quality stuff good news montrĂ©al again sponsor like that is a [TS]

  little bit off the offense to Drobo I love Drobo Drobo is perfect example of [TS]

  like a typical talk show sponsor right owner tea garden [TS]

  now we've got to know something a little different recognizes that you know all [TS]

  this techies we have other aspects to our lives that we need to buy the things [TS]

  so why not get the message out so one of the things that I didn't notice now get [TS]

  back to these rate me dialogues III I knew I'd been annoyed by them and I knew [TS]

  that there was a lot of similarity between a lot of the ones I'd seen but [TS]

  only after I wrote this and it sort of became a topic of conversation on [TS]

  Twitter an email with with readers that I start looking into a little bit and I [TS]

  found I guess I'll put on a show not but there is a good open source project it [TS]

  get cold I rate which is filed it right it's I capital R A T E but it's funny [TS]

  because it's gotten a lot of people say it but anyway and friend a longtime [TS]

  friend of the shows ever been on but he's down linemen whose professional [TS]

  programmer was taking a look at it and it's a even if you're not a programmer [TS]

  she go to their website and just read the readme and just look at the [TS]

  configuration options for this and its ostensible employees at this open source [TS]

  thing to your your iPad or iPhone app and it will automatically you know ask [TS]

  the user to rate and rate but has so many configuration options it's crazy [TS]

  it's so super complicated and it has really been my opinion really bad [TS]

  defaults and it's the dialogue like I think it is the default dialogue is the [TS]

  one that you're all of you anybody I bet every single person listening to the [TS]

  show has seen it not just seen it but as seen it within the last three or four [TS]

  days is this dialogue this is d like this app [TS]

  and there's three buttons and an alert rate it [TS]

  ask me later and bottom no thanks [TS]

  and the one thing I've noticed I've known as everybody's noted the note [TS]

  thanks button doesn't seem to do what you would want it to do which is why I [TS]

  think this very obvious I'm not going to rate rap right now and I don't want to [TS]

  ever be asked again right now all it says is no thanks it doesn't save you [TS]

  know i will never ask you again but I'm not sure what else no thanks [TS]

  could mean a reasonable person could assume it means if there's also a button [TS]

  above it that says remind me later which I'm guessing nobody has ever tapped in [TS]

  their life but if one of the options in remind me later and another one is no [TS]

  thanks [TS]

  and new tap no thanks and then a week or two later the same app asks you again [TS]

  that to me feels broken and it's apparently by design like looking at it [TS]

  like down lineman working at the code it but no thanks really means in this this [TS]

  open source project is no thanks for this version of the app but like if you [TS]

  have its version 2.7 points 3 when you released two points 7.4 to fix a bug [TS]

  this irate project will then you know take a cute asked again and that's why [TS]

  you know so many of us for so many apps have seen the same condemn dialogue so [TS]

  many times and I think it's why during the demo yesterday at the Instagram [TS]

  event that Kevin Systrom got prompted by a from Instagram app because about what [TS]

  happened is that he upgraded the version on his phone to either a newer beta or [TS]

  two maybe the App Store released version which had just cut which was coming out [TS]

  yesterday I think it came out like during the event [TS]

  so my guess is he upgraded to the new version of Instagram and hadn't launched [TS]

  it yet or maybe at like maybe I don't even quite sure about this but maybe it [TS]

  doesn't ask you the first time you launch after an upgraded it may be a [TS]

  tasks like the third time after you upgrade it will ask again and he did [TS]

  install you know it wasn't such a good presentation very well-rehearsed he [TS]

  probably installed it ran through the demo two or three times so that it was [TS]

  all working exactly right and then on stage the whatever you know the end the [TS]

  time when I rate is going to make you angry [TS]

  a couple of hours in between right now [TS]

  Friday December 13th in the evening the developer this irate open source package [TS]

  Nick Lockwood has now this is not coincident is in response to [TS]

  conversations on Twitter berries people developer community before recorded but [TS]

  anyway [TS]

  Lockwood has made changes in the new version which he published today and get [TS]

  her as a few changes it no longer asks users to rate the app version [TS]

  want and if the user selects no thanks [TS]

  they will never be asked again and he even went so far as to remove the option [TS]

  to prompt again virgin I think all of these are changes for the better so [TS]

  great move and really really cool response from developers and I really [TS]

  hope developers who are using his package update to the latest version now [TS]

  back to the show so as well as this configuration documentation there are a [TS]

  ton of different things as he said including all these like fine-tuned [TS]

  attributes that taken together determine win it will prompt you but one of them [TS]

  is literally prompt again for each new version and it says [TS]

  documentation because iTunes ratings are version specific you ideally want users [TS]

  to rate each new version of your act so that's the mindset behind the so John [TS]

  when you said you think has poor defaults I think the defaults if it's [TS]

  set to prompt again for each new version which it sounds like it is [TS]

  they are very well chosen for the goals of the project and this gets back to my [TS]

  whole point about who is this in the service of right the whole point of this [TS]

  project being here for the four at the disposal of hundreds and hundreds or [TS]

  thousands of developers is to benefit developers by maximizing some perceived [TS]

  benefit capitalizing on users and not just of getting reviews but of getting [TS]

  new reviews over and over and over again because in fact from everything I've [TS]

  been able to gather from this this project which i think is super popular [TS]

  and other ones there is no way to stop being asked not only does the no thanks [TS]

  button not stop you from being asked again when a new version comes out even [TS]

  if you rate the app if you do the thing that they were really want you to do [TS]

  which is tap that first button and leave the app even though you are clearly went [TS]

  to the app for some other purpose which was to actually use the app but you're [TS]

  willing to say you know what forget everything I will do you a favor I will [TS]

  take time out of my life right now I will drop what I was doing i will hit [TS]

  this button I will go and check out using my thumbs in the App Store a [TS]

  review of your at right now and I'll give it 5 stars and submit it and put my [TS]

  name on it on the iTunes Store as a review of your appt you do all of that [TS]

  for the developer and then the next time a new version of the app comes out [TS]

  you're going to see that dialogue even hitting rate the app doesn't set any [TS]

  kind of like that says okay this guys have to show this user that dialogue [TS]

  anymore there is no way to stop getting prompted there is no way as a user on a [TS]

  default configured deployment of irate and looks like in looking at this [TS]

  documentation a little more it actually covers this case specifically in the [TS]

  same area says if you step that prompt again for each new version value to know [TS]

  and it clearly says they will not be prompted again each time they install it [TS]

  up [TS]

  eight if they've already rated the app then it goes on to say it will still [TS]

  prompt them for each new version if they have not read it the app and that s it [TS]

  that presumed presumably means if they said no thanks but then it says you can [TS]

  override this using a delegate method I should prompt for ratings so it has to [TS]

  be completely customized some some sense of decency needs to he instilled into [TS]

  this framework and again I i think that it's arguably well intentioned but blind [TS]

  to the cost of user attention I don't think that you know whoever wrote this [TS]

  and set up this configuration system was in any way evil you know I just think is [TS]

  right and I do think it was well-meaning in that it [TS]

  aiming to solve a problem developers face but I think it's completely blind [TS]

  and ham-fisted to the effect it has on users [TS]

  you know and I'll try another similarity and again people keep saying that the [TS]

  defenders of this practice keep saying but it works and there's all sorts of [TS]

  stuff that works that is not right you know telemarketing works right right [TS]

  telemarketing works but it's annoying as hell and I would never want any product [TS]

  or service that i'm involved with to be involved with that even if it was [TS]

  cost-effective I would never have you know pay $100 to have some telemarketer [TS]

  try to get more readers of during fireball or you know people to buy [TS]

  Vesper something like that it's you know beneath the brand in my opinion that's [TS]

  what I we're on the same day I was just gonna say I think that this reflects [TS]

  like there's kind of a herd mentality with developers and I fall victim to it [TS]

  sometimes but you know the problem is we're also scrambling for how we gonna [TS]

  make a living how we gonna like eek out enough of a of a profit that we can [TS]

  maybe quit her day job support our family all these are valuable things to [TS]

  aspire to do but you're right there is one variable and not just dozens but [TS]

  hundreds or thousands of variables that added together you know lead to whether [TS]

  you make a living [TS]

  not and you know there's a lot of things like you know what else makes money [TS]

  pornography and Apple [TS]

  drawn the line right there you know if each of these apps popped up a bare boob [TS]

  everyone's to maybe they'd make a little more money but Apple draws the line on [TS]

  that for us you know like if if if Apple said tomorrow I guess what folks new [TS]

  policy you're not allowed to proactively encourage users to rate your app from [TS]

  the App that would be it it would be over in that would be a new rules of the [TS]

  game developers to play with the time to fix it [TS]

  to submit you know don't don't know absurd be taken out of the store but as [TS]

  new apps new versions gets admitted they would need to comply [TS]

  yeah and I think I feel like when stuff like this comes up and people you know I [TS]

  have to be careful because I'm a developer to my face my own problems but [TS]

  it so happens that I am NOT I'm not in deep with iOS you know revenue stream so [TS]

  I have to be careful not to be too dismissive of folks having problems with [TS]

  this but it feels to me it reminds me of situations I've encountered myself where [TS]

  I was looking for easy outs or easy blames for what's going wrong with with [TS]

  my business with my appt kind of reminds me of this old quip I think you are made [TS]

  on his blog years ago where there's a will remember the context but it was [TS]

  like somebody had one of these kind of like whining rants about seven so [TS]

  whenever I think what somebody who's like quitting the software business and [TS]

  blaming it on piracy or you know people not to be a lack of marketing or [TS]

  something rather it just says maybe you're after sucks you know that's [TS]

  always something we have to they were good and and and sometimes I think when [TS]

  people are down to the point where they're considering whether or not I can [TS]

  force users or strongly compel them [TS]

  to do my bidding and that makes the difference between whether I make a [TS]

  living or not that's a sad place to be and there is there is to be sympathetic [TS]

  to developers there's also a prisoner's dilemma angle to this right i mean [TS]

  what's the classic formulation of the prisoner's dilemma [TS]

  you and a friend of both put in jail [TS]

  separate cells and the jailer comes to you and they want you both confessed to [TS]

  a crime and you can take three options are to maintain their innocence and if [TS]

  you both maintained her innocence then you'll both get out without doing a day [TS]

  in jail time because they don't have a confession you can say it was all the [TS]

  other guys and he'll do all the jail time he'll do you know ten years in jail [TS]

  time and you get to walk away or what did I guess it would be like you would [TS]

  do like a year in jail and he did ten years remember the details [TS]

  well but only recently it's in your interest in theory to stick together and [TS]

  do the right thing and maintained her innocence and you both walk out but that [TS]

  there's a big motivation to wrap the other guy out because then you won't be [TS]

  getting the worst of it and you can't trust him not to do the worst or it's [TS]

  it's like if you both if you both around each other out then you do you do some [TS]

  time right but if you read him out and he says he he says you're both innocent [TS]

  than he does all the time and so it's in your interest to do it and just hope [TS]

  that he did the right thing and let you go right [TS]

  and there is a prisoner's dilemma angle to this where it's like if the other [TS]

  developers are doing it and you're not there getting more reviews and if it [TS]

  does seem to work and the reviews of their laughter mostly positive in your [TS]

  app is getting a disproportionate share of positive reviews because you're not [TS]

  asking your competitors are and therefore their app is better review [TS]

  than yours only not because it is better but only because they're asked and [TS]

  therefore it's in your answers to go along and that sort of why I feel like [TS]

  Apple would be the one who could solve it best by saying you're not allowed to [TS]

  do this because it also lead to the slippery slope and has a research this [TS]

  there's a lot of apps that are doing other things are not just saying hey if [TS]

  you like it leave it at or leave a review [TS]

  there's other apps entered like going taking measures to try to only get [TS]

  positive reviews [TS]

  instead of saying rate the app they're doing things like saying do you like the [TS]

  app I do you like this and if you say yes I like it then they ask you to leave [TS]

  review and if you say no I don't then they don't ask you to leave review they [TS]

  dealt point you somewhere else like pointing to help page or something right [TS]

  which somehow feels disingenuous and slimy when its automated like that but [TS]

  for example it doesn't feel so bad if I as a software business owner like [TS]

  selectively choose to mention hey maybe you could leave me review in like an [TS]

  email correspondence right and that's totally ok you know we do we do that [TS]

  with VAT separately will you know at the bottom of Ike's answer support emails [TS]

  will just put in a little like hey if you like the app it would be really it [TS]

  would be great for us if you took the time to leave a review [TS]

  yeah something like that part of that is your door squeezing that in as like a [TS]

  side note in communication that is getting back to the point otherwise for [TS]

  the customers benefit exactly answering a question you know providing them with [TS]

  a workaround [TS]

  and are acknowledging yes that's a known bug but it's it's a 10 Apple bug and we [TS]

  have to wait so where is annoyed by about you but we have to wait for Apple [TS]

  to fix it we've filed bugs with them you know soon or something else that's a [TS]

  cool feature requests will think about it you know or you know that's a cool [TS]

  feature requests we have thought about it here's why we didn't do it you know [TS]

  something like that some sort of positive interaction and another thing [TS]

  I've seen and I think it's great i think it's totally cool are some people it's [TS]

  nowhere near as prevalent practice as these alerts [TS]

  these alerts have become like a disease but likes i've seen there's i've seen [TS]

  screenshots of some apps were like on the Settings page under Settings panel [TS]

  there will be like a link like to two buttons like one tap here to get support [TS]

  if you have a issue and then underneath that if you like the app to have here to [TS]

  rate it in the App Store these ratings really help us with our rankings think [TS]

  that's ideal because it's an it's it in a place that does not slow down the user [TS]

  and right it's not just that it's just as crazy to me that there are some [TS]

  people who don't see how an alert is is going right to CodeRed [TS]

  you should never shown unless you have to like I think ideally the ideal work [TS]

  flow through any app involved in no alerts you really have to when there's [TS]

  no other solution we've gotta make sure because they're trying to delete this [TS]

  thing and if they do it there's no way to undo it got it shown alert to double [TS]

  check that they really wanted to because it would be catastrophic if they deleted [TS]

  it by acts right so I I think like more forgivable example is like sparkle Mac [TS]

  apps where it does show an alert but it is clearly usually clearly for the [TS]

  customers benefit to get an updated version and importantly in almost every [TS]

  app on the Mac that uses a charcoal there is a preference in the apt to [TS]

  completely disable the alerts [TS]

  so it's a totally different mindset and again it's an important thing again it's [TS]

  in the user's interests usually to be running the latest version of the app [TS]

  but it's not in the user's interest in general to update automatically without [TS]

  their yeah okay right so you and and benefit the right thing to do is to do [TS]

  it sparkle does is to say okay there's an app store there is an updated version [TS]

  you know whatever number you are running this number [TS]

  you know you can do this later or you can do this now so I think that there is [TS]

  a possible like another possible acceptable communications stream between [TS]

  developers and users which is some kind of like passive news stream where it's [TS]

  kinda like the about box idea it's still begging the user's attention I seen this [TS]

  in some games like the general news but then they also have a hmong those news [TS]

  items you know been using this for a while if you like it rate it [TS]

  yeah and that kind of stuff usually entails like some kind of little subtle [TS]

  signal like a little you know maybe a little red light or something on the [TS]

  main screen lets you know there's messages or something like that let's [TS]

  just say if something like that had become the defacto standard for how [TS]

  people try to cajole people into reviewing I don't think we'd be having [TS]

  this conversation it's not that's not problematic enough or maybe not [TS]

  problematic at all but I think even with their alerts which i think is generally [TS]

  heavy-handed for this but as long as if if this I R a project that everybody [TS]

  seems to be so popular [TS]

  if no thanks man never show this again ever just one time one time only and you [TS]

  can opt out and then never show you again I don't think we'd be having this [TS]

  conversation I really don't because then you'd only see that dialogue once for [TS]

  every act and even if you have a lot of apps installed that's not that bad in [TS]

  hindsight I didn't really didn't really occur to me until after I published that [TS]

  but the more I thought about it and really considered my position it's not [TS]

  being asked the first time that it's being asked the second through the end [TS]

  times the one time I don't like it [TS]

  yeah I wouldn't do it but I could live with it and it's the same thing as [TS]

  things like hey maybe you want to I don't think you should do all of these [TS]

  things I think you have a limited amount of attention you can take me either but [TS]

  if you wanted to maybe you want to do something like you said like prompt them [TS]

  want to sign up for an occasional newsletter yea or to follow your [TS]

  companies or products account on Twitter Follow Best Rap want where you will [TS]

  receive an occasional tips tricks news stuff like that and it would be [TS]

  completely appropriate to to say under arrest per Twitter account [TS]

  you know folks if you haven't done it yet now would be a great time to review [TS]

  exactly and part of that too is that with an e-mail newsletter [TS]

  you know you and I know the panic apps have always done this and I think [TS]

  they've had a great success with a really cool you know the newsletters are [TS]

  you know everything you think a panic newsletter would be funny and very well [TS]

  designed it's like one time when you install like a new panic app for the [TS]

  first time they show you a dialog box and it says something you know very [TS]

  friendly and say hey we run a company newsletter occasional news and updates [TS]

  and tips [TS]

  it's not annoying we promise and you can unsubscribe anytime but it'd be great if [TS]

  you signed up and you could put your email address and it hit a button and if [TS]

  you don't want another button and then never ask you something for like Twitter [TS]

  and then again if you want to in your newsletter or in your Twitter account [TS]

  occasionally remind people to do to to maybe leave a review in the App Store [TS]

  that's cool because if if they want to though do it if they don't they won't [TS]

  and if they're annoyed they know how to make it stop [TS]

  you know how to hit the unfollow button Twitter yeah whereas there is no way to [TS]

  make these dialogues I think I think you're right that the the one-time thing [TS]

  is I might consider it like slightly a slight like tarnish on a nap you know [TS]

  but maybe not even that maybe I just accepted as the as the cost of doing [TS]

  business but we all overlooked little things here and there in apps that bugs [TS]

  you don't have to be things that are like intentionally trying to coerce into [TS]

  doing something I really hate the fact that this button in always behave this [TS]

  way when I click it and and then I think what you're onto here with the [TS]

  identification in particular in this open source framework is collectively [TS]

  when you magnify that out over so many apps doing the same thing and the sense [TS]

  that they're all kind of collectively they've giving it the OK by all doing it [TS]

  right it would be like what if you had this one really frustrating annoying [TS]

  behavior of a nap and then they open source that and then suddenly all your [TS]

  apps are behaving that way [TS]

  me take a break here and do the third sponsor break and then there's a couple [TS]

  more of a couple appointed I'm gonna make about these things mainly about [TS]

  apples to apples from this but i wanna tell you about a longtime friend of the [TS]

  show great great company in service mail room and they are 0 UT [TS]

  mail route is a filtering service for email filters out spam filters out [TS]

  viruses and you don't have to change your servers you just point your MX [TS]

  records in mail route mail route cleans all of your incoming mail and enforce it [TS]

  onto your regular your existing mail servers ninety percent of all email [TS]

  traffic on the internet is spam and viruses a cesspool and it is also there [TS]

  for probably about ninety percent of the work that your mail servers have to do a [TS]

  lot of big companies you go to the mail route website and you know read their [TS]

  information you can find case examples of companies that went from running five [TS]

  six seven mail servers to just one after they switched the mail route because [TS]

  mail route takes care of all the work that they mail servers are actually [TS]

  doing which is filtering out the spam and viruses in the junk the actual good [TS]

  male [TS]

  ham is it's not that hard for you [TS]

  one server to keep up with a big organization if you use a service like [TS]

  mail route they have a really low false-positive rates super important [TS]

  they have superb reliable up time and it's a hosted service in the cloud you [TS]

  just sign up for it you don't have to install hardware you have to install [TS]

  software just point your Amex records I really really easy really sane really [TS]

  cool defaults but it's meant for nerds so they have API that you can program it [TS]

  to your heart's desire so you can totally turn out you can customize [TS]

  everything all of its customizable and you can get a free trial this is amazing [TS]

  you get a free trial with no credit cards so you want to try it on and see [TS]

  if it as easy to use and as powerful as as I'm telling you and they'll tell you [TS]

  at the website you could try it for free [TS]

  where do you go to find out more go to their website mail route dot net / the [TS]

  talk show and that that slashed the talk show at the end will let them know [TS]

  you're coming from the show [TS]

  now route dotnet / the talk show and the reason I know this is a reason that [TS]

  they've been back sponsoring the show is that an awful lot of listeners of the [TS]

  show have signed up for it and been really really happy with it cause I know [TS]

  there's just the audience that shows a lot of people out there you know where [TS]

  the system admins for their company or organization if you've been thinking [TS]

  about it trust me check it out it really works so the last thing I wanted to say [TS]

  about this is apples role and not just in approving the absurd doing this but [TS]

  in a way that the App Store is currently configured and one of the things a lot [TS]

  of people jumped on this on in the Twitter conversation an awful lot of [TS]

  people are saying what I i think i agree with two which is that there's a big [TS]

  difference between asking the user once and asking them over and over again and [TS]

  it's that once every version that was annoying but immediately then there were [TS]

  people defending it because the way the App Store is set up it's only the [TS]

  current version of the app whose reviews are counted to make the average rating [TS]

  so like if you had really good reviews a year ago but now you've had two versions [TS]

  sense and not some bad reviews just you don't have that many reviews they don't [TS]

  show up in the faultless and that people base their like should I download it or [TS]

  not [TS]

  decisions on how already be that as it may that is not the user's problem [TS]

  that's right it just isn't you know and it's like i don't know [TS]

  it should be fixed I think there's gotta be a better way to do it I mean there's [TS]

  a lot of people who are you know time goes on her kind of any app story gets [TS]

  older [TS]

  you know that its discovery is definitely it's always been a problem in [TS]

  the App Store right where the best apps don't necessarily filter to the top [TS]

  Twitter client is a perfect example where like if you search the App Store [TS]

  for Twitter you don't get a listing of the best Twitter client you do get [TS] official Twitter client early on but like apps like Twitterrific [TS]

  and tweet but depending on the day and what's going on with Apple's indexes [TS]

  don't show up you get a whole bunch of junk underneath the official Twitter [TS]

  client whereas I think you know in a world where the App Store works [TS]

  according to Apple's ideals where the bet you know Apple's you know stuff is [TS]

  always been about the best you know what's the best quality apps like tweet [TS]

  baden Twitterrific should be at the top of them and what's worse is that they [TS]

  have apparently been punished for this practice of starting releasing a new [TS]

  release with a new skill and SKU code on the App Store which is itself a [TS]

  workaround to you know the lack of a paid upgrade system where people [TS]

  developers would like to ideally hold on to their their sort of like notoriety in [TS]

  their reputation and the store for a particular app but to get paid again [TS]

  they either have to light jump through some weird hoops to turn their upgrade [TS]

  into an ala carte in-app purchase or they have to make an all-new skew and [TS]

  then they start at the bottom [TS]

  literally like I mean suddenly at somebody mentioned I think it was maybe [TS]

  David Barnard cuz he's always always real you know I think productively [TS]

  critical about the search issue he said you know tweet pot went from like number [TS]

  one or number two in those results to off the off the page fold so yeah [TS]

  Apple's role it so it's one of those things where you know it's always been [TS]

  easy for us who are Big Apple fans and we appreciate so much that Apple doesn't [TS]

  always easy for us to say like oh this 16 would fix everything for this is what [TS]

  they should do it this is why is this also screwed up and of course we have to [TS]

  take a step back and realize that when you consider that for any one of these [TS]

  little things we can pinpoint there are actually dozens or hundreds of things [TS]

  that could probably be improved its easier than to at least be empathetic to [TS]

  how it's not perfect it is effectively the the similarity that keeps we've [TS]

  mentioned it during the show yet but this whole practice of asking for the [TS]

  reviews it reeks of SEO search engine optimization which is largely in my [TS]

  opinion and always has been [TS]

  ways to take advantage of search engines you know it's it's you know whatever [TS]

  techniques of work it's not about truly deserving top spots it's how to get the [TS]

  top spot whether you deserve it or not right and that's you know it's become a [TS]

  dirty word and people you know other than marketing scumbags people to hear [TS]

  as CEO and they think bad bad practices and annoying cheats well that's you know [TS]

  I hate to say it that's what this rating thing is it's like you know even if it [TS]

  works it's it's that shouldn't be held works you're taking advantage of [TS]

  relatively poorer ranking system yeah you know something else is came to mind [TS]

  is another one of the Twitter like things that got kinda got to me a little [TS]

  bit because of course it's close to home and it's a personal allegation but there [TS]

  was a not so subtle suggestion that for me to criticize developers who are doing [TS]

  this it's a situation where my privileges is is should be called into [TS]

  question where meaning that it's easy for me to take the high road or you know [TS]

  it too [TS]

  to proclaim that developers should or shouldn't do these things because [TS]

  implying that you know even with my modest you know say Twitter and blog [TS]

  audience and podcast audience that I have this huge upper hand in marketing [TS]

  my apps such that I wouldn't need to use these kinds of marketing techniques and [TS]

  I thought that was particularly interesting because this was based in a [TS]

  post that you had written because I was because people could as easily if not [TS]

  more forcefully make that allegation about you with [TS]

  Vesper yeah I definitely got that I mean to the couple people with infective [TS]

  developers defending their use of it in their apps why wouldn't have to do it in [TS]

  my app be there if I could get a link on during fireball from my appt right as [TS]

  often as Vesper does and I don't know what to say to that [TS]

  here's what I have to say to it is these people are overlooking how difficult it [TS]

  is to market and 222 market absence to make apps profitable and successful even [TS]

  if you do have the luck of an audience of starting with some kind of yeah it's [TS]

  this is this you know not to I don't insult these people per se but they have [TS]

  a misunderstanding of the whole system and it's better to have an audience than [TS]

  not it's better to be the Omni group and already have tens of thousands of happy [TS]

  users when you're launching a brand new version 1.0 app that nobody's had before [TS]

  you know it better to be panic than not you know tend to be unheard of software [TS]

  developer but that does not make it easy [TS]

  panic or the Omni group or anybody else to launch a 1.0 and and get it to stick [TS]

  more than just on the first day we do get an ice pick it it's easy to get a [TS]

  nice bike on the first day if you're known it is it is not have that much [TS]

  bearing on what happens ya week or a month or two months or six months later [TS]

  eventually doesn't take very long for water to reach its own level that the [TS]

  app becomes as popular as it should be whoever you started out and then we get [TS]

  back to us Mueller's baby Raptis sucks and you know those of us with some kind [TS]

  of built-in audience if we're struggling to sell the appt at some point we can [TS]

  choose to take stock and whether the app needs to be improved a lot of times a [TS]

  nap just needs to exist for a number of years before it has like the the [TS]

  refinement in the future base and share to be successful [TS]

  gus is pretty good example cuz I'll bet that that's sort of what happened when I [TS]

  don't know exactly how the sales chart for a corner has been but I you know I [TS]

  think when acorn first shipped it was very interesting because it's been so [TS]

  many years where everybody was like how come there's no India image editors and [TS]

  then all of a sudden there were a couple of corners one and had some interesting [TS]

  design and interface and features but it's such a huge you know you know [TS]

  you're competing against Photoshop you know when you've got a lot of you know I [TS]

  think it's to cooperate going to have a minimum feature set that was like you [TS]

  know what this is totally feasible yeah [TS]

  and and and one other quick thought that comes to mind is all of these people who [TS]

  are sort of like comforting themselves I think with maybe for the behavior of [TS]

  their Apple for the absence of comforting fact that these tactics are [TS]

  being used because it's somehow necessary or because it's you know it's [TS]

  the leg up that they need to offset that lack of an existing audience or the lack [TS]

  of existing success it's it just strikes me as totally opposite from the mindset [TS]

  you need to have if you actually want to be successful because by adopting these [TS]

  like follow the herd tactics it's the exact mindset that prevents you from [TS]

  having those like dade noticeably different you know you know if you look [TS]

  at some companies are you like panic for example to keep coming up obviously we [TS]

  love them but you know they distinguish themselves often by doing things that no [TS]

  other company does and it's not by assuming that because everybody else has [TS]

  a nag nag we're like dialogue in their app that that's the way to do it and I [TS]

  think of these people thinking that if they're so convinced that the way to [TS]

  succeed in the software business is to adopt whatever like you know I'm being a [TS]

  little dramatic but whatever bottom-feeding tactics everybody else is [TS]

  using the Nexus like symptom that they're setting themselves up for that [TS]

  kind of that kind of mentality in general like well it's good enough for [TS]

  everybody else on the App Store and you don't get successful and popular and [TS]

  beloved by trying to be only as good as everything else on the App Store is that [TS]

  I had to get up on my how hard I try I had always have you on the show to get a [TS]

  bite your lips on in my 10 gallon hat its new on I think bottom line [TS]

  take away I think if there's anything everybody could take away from this if [TS]

  there's a way that we could that that that raising this into an issue that [TS]

  we're being discussed is this something that that [TS]

  change that comes of this my hope would be that it would be to make this these [TS]

  dialogues a when you hit no thanks you never see it again [TS]

  any version regardless of all of the arguments that that you know the App [TS]

  Store wants that cause let's face it people are not what do you do you really [TS]

  as a developer if you're out there and you're on the fence in your thinking you [TS]

  know your app does this [TS]

  you're listening to the show I hope we've convinced you at least that it [TS]

  doesn't make any sense to ask people to do it over and over again do you really [TS]

  think that they're going to leave multiple reviews I think they are John I [TS]

  think that that's I think that let's say you got 10,000 users I think they're [TS]

  counting on the fact that by annoying 10,000 people five to 10 of those people [TS]

  will push the button and go review I know I don't know what the numbers are [TS]

  but if you think about it that way you don't need to hit that many people need [TS]

  to hit that big of a percentage for it to make an impact and i think [TS]

  unfortunately that's just another another another case for punishing the [TS]

  bulk of your users when you know only a small tiny fraction of them is needed to [TS]

  give you the results you want I also think that Apple should seriously [TS]

  considered banning it and I think the fact that there that as we talked about [TS]

  a few minutes ago that developed some developers are doing the even more [TS]

  questionable practice of trying to figure out first whether you're gonna [TS]

  leave before five star review and only then for adding you on if you're going [TS]

  to allow in general I'm not sure how you would how you would ban just that even [TS]

  though that is to me clearly gaming the reviews it's almost as bad it's only you [TS]

  know it's only a hair short of using those can be paid services that that [TS]

  leave made up reviews right and it sort of feels like the kind of thing where [TS]

  Apple could included in the whole genre of prohibitions against like acting like [TS]

  the App Store or acting like right like the springboard or whatever [TS]

  getting into Apple's business reviews should be you know in theory should be [TS]

  organic and you know you may be prompted by things that are outside the Apple [TS]

  tech support email or something like that no one positive thing I think that [TS]

  came out of this is there has been a little bit of a kind of grassroots call [TS]

  for voluntary rating of apps that you love and I think that's great that will [TS]

  offset to some extent that tiny percentage I think of your readers have [TS]

  gone out and taking your advice literally but it also reminds me that [TS]

  you know there are there are a few in my mind there may be a high level three [TS]

  different approaches to solving this problem the approach that many [TS]

  developers are taking now to coerce users into raiding the approach we wish [TS]

  would happen which is apple with systematically repair the review system [TS]

  in some important ways and then there's another option which is somebody putting [TS]

  together some system whereby people [TS]

  together some system whereby people [TS]

  broken kind of take pride or ownership of their ratings of apps some kind of [TS]

  system the game of fires ratings in a way that users would want to go you know [TS]

  show off what they like and share their reviews the example that comes to mind [TS]

  is I think some people out there [TS]

  developers in particular you are more likely now to report radar bugs to Apple [TS]

  because of this open radar site where you can say look folks I did my part and [TS]

  whether Apple ignores my suggestion or heeds it I reported the bug and I can [TS]

  imagine some system existing outside of the control of developers or Apple that [TS]

  would encourage users to sort of show their there and maybe this would be [TS]

  gaming and inappropriately have nobody expect if it were framed towards showing [TS]

  your love for the apps that you love I think that could be something I think [TS]

  that could affect you know the same kind of results that the people the [TS]

  developers are looking for without being so disrespectful of the user's [TS]

  interrupting them yep that's exactly and if you i mean the funny thing is a lot [TS]

  of these users will be happy to give five or ten minutes of their time [TS]

  voluntarily in service of the developer but are outraged to have to give ten [TS]

  seconds involuntarily right because it's not just the ten seconds it's the [TS]

  interruption and it's like the cartoons you know there's a bunch of made the [TS]

  rounds but like you know why it's bad to interrupt a programmer and it's you know [TS]

  it's you may only be taking two seconds other time but you're effectively like [TS]

  popping bubble that has taken a while to build up to get their head around the [TS]

  problem you know and like you said you know right at the beginning that [TS]

  the whole reason that they're in the app in the first place is to do whatever it [TS]

  is the apt us let you take a picture let you read your tweets are let you play [TS]

  again which is which is why is especially terrible misbehavior on [TS]

  mobile devices because the whole thing about the time you spend in a mobile app [TS]

  so much shorter than I like a desktop app rates are interrupting is not much [TS]

  more egregious [TS]

  exactly well where can people find out more from you damn well what do you want [TS]

  to send people well I'm dad Daniel punk ass on Twitter and I have a blog at [TS]

  splitting dot org and my software is wonderful and you should read it please [TS]

  take a moment now stop this podcast go directly to iTunes App Store and make my [TS]

  software mars that it is that it is on the Mac App Store and on my site at red [TS]

  dashed and don't forget to rape the talk show in the pod has forgot [TS]

  to ask them to pause the podcast near Plaza right now before we finish is only [TS]

  a few seconds of deposit go to the App Store and give it a rating way way way [TS]

  way way way we first of all to yourself am I going to rate the show for stars or [TS]

  five stars and if it's less than 4 don't post the podcast [TS]

  did not proceed directly to the iTunes Store [TS]